Player Attitudes and Applied Sabermetrics

When we talk about “resistance” to the practical applications of sabermetrics “in baseball,” we usually mean front offices and managers. But players themselves might have their reasons for objecting to some of those applications, and it isn’t just ignorance. Let’s take a look at two possible cases and what might be done to overcome the issue.

One area in which players might resist applied sabermetrics is lineup optimization. Studies of lineups such as the one found in The Book have found that that second spot in the order is one of most underutilized spots in the lineup, and that the best hitters should generally hit first, second, and fourth in the lineup. Traditional baseball wisdom says that the best hitters should hit third and fourth, then the other spots fall around them — maybe a fast guy with on-base skills at the top, but not power (don’t “waste” his extra-base hits!), another power guy fifth, and so on. While attitudes towards the second spot are changing, it still often seems to be an afterthought for most managers.

While there are often good hitters found in number-two spots in the lineup, much of that happens on teams that have enough good hitters that they can put one there — it is rare that you find a team with only a few good hitters regularly putting one of them second. Last season’s Braves were a nice exception, with Jason Heyward hitting in the second spot for much of the regular season and in the playoffs. Of course, Heyward was a rookie, so it was easy to “make” him do it. However, can you imagine Joe Girardi getting Alex Rodriguez or Mark Teixeira to do so [INSERT JOE TORRE/A-ROD 2006 PLAYOFFS JOKE HERE]? Do you think Ryan Zimmerman or Jayson Werth will be hitting second for the Nationals next season? Baseball tradition is a powerful thing, and given that “the best hitters hit three and four” is taught to most players from a very young age, it’s too easy to write off their potential resistance to doing otherwise when they have the “clubhouse pull” as merely due to ignorance. As far as other smart batting order, for example, using different batting orders against right- and left-handed throwing starters (not platooning, but, say, having a left-handed batter hit second against right-handed pitchers and moving him to sixth versus southpaws), well, the players don’t want to get out of their “routine.”

Of course, batting order isn’t that big of a deal — maybe two runs per season per “move” at most. A slightly bigger deal might be the usage of closers. Without getting into all the specifics, it has been shown again and again that always saving (ahem) the best reliever for the ninth inning is not the most efficient usage. For example, the eighth inning up by one is a higher leverage situation in which to bring in the “relief ace” than the ninth inning with three outs. But there are a couple of things at work here: stud relievers almost never go two innings these days (for the save or otherwise), even though they often did back in the 1970s and 1980s — check out the careers of Goose Gossage and Dan Quisenberry if you think this would shorten their careers. There are multiple different (if related) issues here (numbers of innings, leverage) with a number of reasons for resistance (concerns about injury, saves). Heck, the notion of the Holy Save can even pull the wool over the eyes of a smart guy like Jonathan Papelbon, who argues that the save is important because, um, it is a save:

A save is what it is. You save the game. It’s a situation in which the tying run is at the plate or on deck and the game is on the line.

Well said, wise one.

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Again, you can get the details of the arguments about leverage and reliever usage elsewhere. But the players, just like the managers, have taken the “wisdom” that’s been handed down to them, and the stats that are still glorified in most mainstream sportswriting. Moreover, the “save” is still part of the Elias formula for ranking relievers (given how Type A status has affected reliever contracts, this might actually serve to lessen player attachment to it if they think carefully, although this situation might change in the new Collective Bargaining Agreement). So it’s understandable why a closer might not want to come into the eighth inning of a one-run game for a two-inning save if it means he might not also be available for a three-run, one-inning save the next night.

These are just two examples of why players might resist these changes. It is easy enough to say, “tell them to do it anyway,” but is also pretty clear that is not how a major-league clubhouse typically works (especially with established and well-paid veterans), and I’m not sure that is such a bad thing. Managers are also motivated by what we might see as “external issues” — namely, keeping their job, and an unhappy clubhouse, or regularly trying unconventional strategies that don’t immediately work don’t really help with that project. So what can be done, long-term?

I won’t pretend to have a simple, easy answer. I do have some suggestions. The managerial level has been discussed many times: managers need to be treated as the middle-management types they are, so not only should they not be “in charge” of big-time decisions, they need to be defended by their superiors when the right decisions are made, and the front offices need to explain why such decisions are the “right ones,” particularly when they don’t work out in a particular game.

As for the players (the primary focus of this post), the issue is more complicated. I suspect that players view things like hitting third and the three-run, ninth-inning save a bit like David Letterman and Conan O’Brien saw Johnny Carson’s chair at the Tonight Show: as a prestigious thing to be dreamed about and attained no matter what sort of evidence is produced to show it was not what they think it is. In the case of the players, while some inroads might be made at the major-league level, the minor leagues might be the place to start changing attitudes about these things. Already in the minors, relievers should not be set into a traditional “role,” but shown that they can go longer, used in higher-leverage situations (on the major-league level, big incentive bonuses based on innings pitched into the 90s and 100s might suddenly help relievers “discover” just how durable they are). Perhaps top hitting prospects should already be hitting second in the minors or even moved around more often from spot to spot, simply to get used to the idea that second is a “prestige spot” or even that whatever other routines they need, hitting in the same spot in the order day after day is not one of them. While I don’t know of any studies of player comfort with regard to roles making a difference, I don’t want to discount the possibility. However, if such an issue does exist, it seems like weaning players off of such security blankets should begin before they ever see the majors.

Thoughts?





Matt Klaassen reads and writes obituaries in the Greater Toronto Area. If you can't get enough of him, follow him on Twitter.

39 Comments
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Jay
15 years ago

Player psychology is such a delicate issue. That’s why managers can turn teams around; it’s not due to them making better roster decisions or when to bring in relievers, it’s due to them massaging (or demolishing) the egos of their players. You’re absolutely right, players and mangers should learn to leave their biases at the door, but baseball culture, at the moment, doesn’t allow for that.

Mike Green
15 years ago

Another idea for bullpen usage would be to use the 3-inning save rule more often. If a middle reliever comes on with a 7-2 lead to begin the seventh inning and hasn’t pitched in a day or two, leave him in if he is pitching effectively. Carrots may work better than sticks…

Telo
15 years ago

“of a smart guy like Jonathan Papelbon”

Hey now…

I am a sox fan, and even I can admit that he’s about as smart as a bag of rocks. But let’s take it easy on the sarcasm, ok!!!!!!!!!!!!

Padman Jones
15 years ago
Reply to  Telo

Haha, Pap doesn’t even know the definition of a save.

Ask Wes Littleton, who got the save in the Rangers’ 30-3 win from a few years ago.

tbad
15 years ago
Reply to  Padman Jones

We don’t like to talk about that game. I had almost completely blocked it from memory.

Tom PinzoneMember since 2024
15 years ago

The last bit about getting these guys to think/act different in the minors makes a ton of sense to me. Especially the relief pitchers, aren’t most of these guys starters in college/high school anyways? I don’t see why a organizational wide approach of working reliever multiple innings wouldn’t work. It would make believers out of these kids if they went out and made 50 two inning appearances, threw 100 innings or so and lived to tell about it. They do that for 2-3 seasons in the minors there wouldn’t be an issue when they made the show.

That would make it more of a non issue inside the clubhouse between the player and manager, if he’s now only being asked to do the same thing he’s already been doing. The media/fans are another issue, but if it worked out for the team and the players arms didn’t fall off, what could they say?

The lineup stuff like you said could be worked out too in the minors. The Red Sox have several guys who could lead off but none of them “like” hitting first. If the stigma of whatever it is they think happens to them in certain spots in the batting order could get broken in the minors it would make the managers job easier both in dealing with the players and overreaction that would come from beat reporters and radio guys.

That’s the other issue with this stuff too, the morons on Boston sports radio would be just sit back and wait for the one time one of this theories didn’t work and they’d go off the deepend ripping it to pieces to the masses of unenlightened fans who blindly believe the garbage that gets spewed out of their mouths.

I think the traditional media really slows the acceptance down drastically of any of the ideas you touched on. They’re supposed to be baseball “experts” but they refuse to believe in all the new stuff that’s out. Stats that clearly and concisely disprove plenty of old theories and show the flaws in traditional stats, they ignore. And it’s asinine, every front office in baseball uses sabermetrics to some extent. It’s there, it’s in some small way there in every decision that gets made. Yet, Ken Rosenthal still gets away with throwing out RBI and run totals as if they’re really supposed to mean anything.

Rosenthal gets to say things like Jose Bautista is a good fielder at thirdbase and can play all three outfield spots(he actually said this last week) and not put forth anything at all to prove that claim. But it doesn’t matter because 90% of the people that read that will go, oh Bautista could play center field if he was asked to. But the sabermetric community gets one thing wrong and gets shit on for it.

hunterfan
15 years ago
Reply to  Tom Pinzone

I think people believe what the mainstream media tells them to believe. I think the mainstream media (mostly) believes what the team puts out.

I’ve heard managers say “so-and-so is a clutch player. He gets big hits when it counts.” So the media parrots that because that’s the same terminology the team uses. I’ve heard managers say that “saves are important, and so and so is our closer, so he pitches the 9th inning.” Can you blame the media for parrotting that back to the mainstream fan?

If and when the teams change, the media will change, and the mainstream fan will change too. I think trying to change the media FIRST is putting the cart ahead of the horse.

Tom PinzoneMember since 2024
15 years ago
Reply to  hunterfan

I see what you mean, but at the same time I don’t think that’s the same case when you start talking about what general managers say. They don’t seem to hold up saves and wins and RBIs and being clutch as being the way of which things should be measured. And they’re the ones signing and promoting players and so on.

It goes back to what Matt said, and what was said in Moneyball, the managers are treated rather uniquely in baseball as compared to middle management of most other organizations. If the team explained some of this stuff to the manager, these guys aren’t stupid, then they should take more of this stuff with them into the dugout.

Tom PinzoneMember since 2024
15 years ago
Reply to  hunterfan

And that’s letting the writers off the hook too, to an extent. Why can’t the media question what the manager says? That’s what this site does everyday. Why does the media have to wait around for a new generation of managers for them to start and try and change how the general public looks at baseball? Why wait?

hunterfan
15 years ago
Reply to  hunterfan

Teejay-remember what happened to the guy who reported on Ken Griffey sleeping in the clubhouse? Something the club didn’t even deny, but just felt shouldn’t have been published? They shunned the reporter. Wouldn’t talk to him.

The media that DON’T have inside access to the teams (i.e. many sabermetrics sites) can often be much more critical of the team because nothing is lost to them for being critical.

OTOH, holding up beat reporters and others who depend on inside access to the team up to the same standard and expecting them to be harsh and questioning of the team could put their very job in jeopardy.

I can’t imagine that a beat reporter in Philadelphia who constantly questions Charlie Manuel’s lineup and strategic decisions, continually pans the Ryan Howard extension, points out that Lee didn’t leave any money on the table to come to the city, questions Amaro Jr.’s competence as a general manager, etc etc will be very welcome in the clubhouse for long.

Tom PinzoneMember since 2024
15 years ago
Reply to  hunterfan

That’s a good point too. That to me just says the entire system of which the media gets and reports information is shit. It shouldn’t be that way, I’d love to know what these guys who cover the team actually think. Do they know/understand sabermetrics but just go along with the BS from the team because they have to? Or do they blindly believe everything their told?

I get it though, I’m perfectly ok writing in a blog about John Farrell’s decision making but it would be another thing all together to ask him, for example, why in Gods name he would ever consider putting Scott Podsednik in centerfield?, right to his face.

But then really how important is that? The team reports players injuries, they make official announcements on player moves, anyone can figure out the rotation, the lineup gets posted on a wall. I mean what are they really telling us we’re not going to find out anyways? And it comes at the expense of questioning all of the above. They should be able to write what they feel is true and not be denied access to something as trivial as the manager saying “O-Dog’s taking a day off ’cause his ankle hurts”.

Not David
15 years ago
Reply to  Tom Pinzone

To hell with Rosenthal, he lost every last ounce of credibility he had with me when he pulled a Bissinger on that blogger.

hunterfan
15 years ago
Reply to  Not David

I didn’t hear about that. Do tell.

ImKeithHernandez
15 years ago

I think another issue that players should know about is luck. Specifically, a player like Aaron Hill might benefit from knowing that he isn’t actually a .205 hitter before he starts messing around with his mechanics. I would think that knowing about BABIP and how his number last year was nearly 100 points lower than his career average would help ease his concerns.

Tom PinzoneMember since 2024
15 years ago

Yea and no, his BABIP was horrid, yes, but it was probably in large part to his career low line drive rate and career high flyball rate. But the gist of what your saying makes sense.

Kevin
15 years ago

What would you say to a guy like Carlos Gonzalez or Austin Jackson who had an unreasonably high BABIP and will probably see some regression? Not disagreeing with you, just asking how this situation should be handled.

ImKeithHernandez
15 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

They’re young guys that haven’t had to deal with failure yet. I think letting them know that they are in for a rude awakening wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. When luck catches up to them, they are going to find out eventually.

bender
15 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Obviously you don’t want to say it in those words but a manager might want to say something like “look I know you hit 300 last year but we still need to work on cutting back on those strikeouts, otherwise you won’t next year”

cje
15 years ago

You can still appeal to both. If a 5th place hitter has reluctance about hitting second, explain that 60 more at bats will lead to 4 more homers and 15 more hits over the course of the season. LaRussa does some things counter to what would be optimal, but he has explained his preference for damage in the 2-hole for years. He is still going to put his 2 best hitters at 3-4, but whenever possible has avoided using a get-em-over guy in the second spot.

hotspur
15 years ago
Reply to  cje

Many players get paid cold, hard cash based on PAs.

Batting 2nd instead of 4th will get you ~(2/9* games played) more PAs.

If their agent tells them those 30-35 PAs will make them more likely to get a $100k+ check, I think they’ll listen.

Bill
15 years ago

Two rules of batting order…

1) get your better guys near the top.
2) alternate Rs and Ls.

Never line them up for a L(R)OOGY.

Scott
15 years ago

What’s interesting is the closer debate. If it wasn’t for the save stat, you would see them used at various points. For example in a 1 run game coming up with 2-3-4 or 3-4-5. Would be more ideal for your ace reliever. But players get paid for saves. For a few years Peter Moylan was the Braves cleanup ace. went into games with a runner on and the leading or tying run at the plate and would get out of the jam, it was certainly bigger than 2007 than the closer Wickman, and he wasn’t as important as Raffy in 09, but he was damned close. He’s been elite almost every year but his cost is low, cause he doesn’t have saves.

ralf
15 years ago
Reply to  Scott

I think it would be a good idea for the saber community to come up with and popularize a counting stat based on LI and/or WPA for relievers. You get a point for, say, each of the three highest-leverage outs of the game. Or something along those lines. Something not too hard for the average fan to understand, and something where a reliever negotiating his contract can say “Look, I got 78 ultra-high-leverage outs, 5 saves, and only gave up the lead 7 times. Why am I being paid less than the closer with 34 saves and only 50 high-leverage outs?”
Modern closer usage is a direct result of the save stat. A competing stat that more accurately judges a pitcher’s contribution could lead to more efficient bullpen use. Of course, it will take a long time- it was 20 years between the birth of the “save” and the Larussa/Eckersley era in Oakland.

Toffer Peak
15 years ago
Reply to  ralf

Can’t believe that no one else responded earlier since the saber community already did exactly that. Tangotiger created Shutdowns and Meltdowns for relievers who gain or lose 0.06 WPA in an appearance. Fangraphs then implemented it on their site last spring.

For reference, last years leaders in Shutdowns were: Soriano, Soria, Wilson, Bard and Feliz. The leaders in Meltdowns were: Clippard, Qualls and Masset.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shutdowns-meltdowns/
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=y&type=3&season=2010&month=0

Jimbo
15 years ago

What I don’t understand is why a smaller market team (or Mr. Moneyball) hasn’t tried something different. When you LACK superstars, not to mention a winning tradition, shouldn’t it be easier to institute novel approaches like the author suggests??

If/when a team does successfully implement changes to bullpen usage, others will follow. (Especially if it can be shown to reduce costs…)

CJ
15 years ago

The “closer” designation and the save statistic have financial implications for relievers which goes beyond the Elias rankings. Closers are paid more than set up relievers. A slew of saves bring higher salary in free agency, and arbitration panels will award higher awards for accumulated saves. Given the financial incentive, the relief ace is acting rationally in resisting a change in his role. So, I don’t think this is a matter of just “teaching” relief pitchers to embrace a new role. The advent of the current rigid system of set up and closer roles has significantly increased the stature and salaries for closers over the past 20 years. What would relief pitchers want to change this structure?

Ari Collins
15 years ago
Reply to  CJ

^^ this

Jay
15 years ago

I’m a novice to this research, but I want to ask whether lineup optimization studies have been done from the perspective of individual player performance rather than team performance. We typically read that an optimized lineup would offer Team X an additional, say, 8 runs over the course of a season, or 1 win, and so on. But are there studies that suggest how moving from, say, the fifth spot in the lineup to the second would affect a player’s WAR (or perhaps better, batting runs?) over the “same” season, all other things being equal? (Or maybe it would be necessary to adjust plate appearances to reflect the different position in the batting order.)

Players are motivated by self interest. So what might it mean to be able to inform a player that a given level of batting “productivity” (however that should be defined) would result in more *player* “wins” (higher WAR, greater value)–and not just in more *team* wins–out of the two hole than out of the six spot? And do we have the statistical means to determine that with any authority? Do these questions even make any sense?

Barkey Walker
15 years ago
Reply to  Jay

Saber totally ignores cross partials, so no.

linuxit
15 years ago

Applied Sabermetrics sometimes fails for a few reasons.

1) Hindsight is not foresight. Getting a bullpen arm ready takes time and the manager needs to plan ahead. It’s impossible to predict when the highest leverage situation of the game will emerge.

2) Use the stud in the 7th or 8th inning only to see the other guys blow it in the 9th.

3) Players want to know their roles. A bullpen hierarchy is makes them happier.

gore51Member since 2020
15 years ago

I think Billy Beane’s quote in that article about saves is terrific:

“Why do teams do this when this is such a readily apparent poor use of resources?

“I’ll tell you why,” Oakland general manager Billy Beane says. “It’s the same reason more football coaches don’t go for it on fourth-and-1. Because when it doesn’t work, 30 of you guys come storming in wondering why the manager didn’t go to the closer. It’s turned into a situation where a lot of emotion is tied to that decision, just as a lot of emotion is tied to the fourth-down decision. Even if you know the odds, it’s more comfortable being wrong when you go to the closer or the punter.”

dorasaga
15 years ago

The argument for sending your best relievers out there, in latter innings, based on leverage situation, is one-dimensional for “stats head.”

I’m starting to wonder if this discussion based on Tom Tango’s “The Book is even sabermetric anymore, if you don’t step back and look at the whole picture here.

Pitchers are durable only because they are not overused. But we still observed plenty of pitchers burned, injured, and never came back again. Eric Gagne, yeah?

Goose Gossage is perhaps one of his kind, the special 2% out of thousands and thousands of Major League relievers.

We want to ask ourselves this question, again, and again, if pitchers who couldn’t start, and set in a relieving role, our majority, the other 98%, had they ever injured? In their minor league days? And then in their major league service? After injury, had they bounced back?

How many innings they pitched, or more specifically, how many PITCHES he used in his career before he flamed out, or injured, or afterwards faced a down in his career?

There might not be one “this rules” kind of simpletonic answer. But I’m suspecting that with the nature of pitching, and the majority of pitchers who had injuries but came back, either in his days during college, minor, or the Big, that our current “save the best for the ninth” approach might actually not be a bad idea to “save” their arms at all.

Smotheredinhugs
15 years ago

Damn. I read the headline and thought I was going to get some Milton Bradley, Carl Everett and Glen Burke graphs.

neuter_your_dogma
15 years ago

It is a pervasive attitude among ball players. Recently, Mike Schmidt said the Phillies have to do a better job of playing “small ball.” If by “small ball” he means walking more and taking extra bases threafter, then cool. But I didn’t get that vibe from his comments.

Double D
15 years ago

Your example of Jason Heyward is technically valid, but look at the Phillies from 2010. They often batted Chase Utley (their best hitter) 2nd, Polanco third, Howard fourth. They will tell you they did this in order to split up the two big lefty bats, but it has the same effect as you are mentioning. Hell, Utley even batted 2nd when he came up from the minors in 05-06, as he was still developing and was blocked by a veteran stud in Abreu. This is the same situation Heyward was in last year (Jones/McCann batting 3rd). When Jones finally retires, Heyward will bat 3rd as many expect.

Face it, it will take much more than a handful of runs per year to force the organizations’ hand and change their tactics.

J. B. Rainsberger
15 years ago

I wonder what LaRussa did to help Edmonds feel comfortable batting second?

Geordie Keitt
15 years ago

Encouragingly, Jayson Werth is fine batting second, and apparently it was his idea. Click my name for the Washington Post article linking to this article.