Pre-Spring Divisional Outlook: AL East
Throughout the early stages of the calendar year, I’ve been taking a pre-spring training look at each of the six MLB divisions from a slightly different perspective. Utilizing batted ball data, we’re going back over the 2014 season, attempting to calculate each club’s true talent level. Making adjustments for teams’ offensive and defensive K and BB rates and team defense, each team’s true talent 2014 won-lost record is calculated. Then, we’ll take a look at the current Steamer projections for 2015, evaluate key player comings and goings, and determine whether clubs are constructed to be able to handle the inevitable pitfalls along the way that could render such projections irrelevant. The fourth installment of this series features the AL East.
Last week, we looked at the “boring” NL East, the most predictable, boilerplate division going, both in 2014 and 2015. Today’s going to be a little bit different. We’ve looked at half of the clubs in the game utilizing this method of analysis over the last three weeks, and all of them posted actual records within shouting distance of their calculated true-talent records. Today, we’ll see a club that outperformed its true-talent mark by 10 games, and one that fell short by that same margin. Good times. Oh, and the team with the best true-talent mark finished fourth in a division that was won by 12 games.
First, let’s start it off with a table that will serve as the backbone of our analysis:
| 2014 | BIP B OBP | BIP B SLG | BIP P OBP | BIP P SLG | BAT K % | BAT BB % | PIT K % | PIT BB % | DEF MULT |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| BAL | 0.328 | 0.532 | 0.317 | 0.491 | 21.0% | 6.5% | 19.2% | 7.7% | 97.0 |
| NYY | 0.308 | 0.454 | 0.322 | 0.494 | 18.6% | 7.4% | 22.4% | 6.5% | 103.8 |
| TOR | 0.315 | 0.482 | 0.313 | 0.486 | 18.7% | 8.1% | 19.5% | 8.0% | 101.7 |
| TB | 0.304 | 0.450 | 0.306 | 0.478 | 18.1% | 8.5% | 23.4% | 7.9% | 100.9 |
| BOS | 0.316 | 0.486 | 0.318 | 0.491 | 21.5% | 8.6% | 19.5% | 7.7% | 102.5 |
| MLB AVG | 0.318 | 0.489 | 0.318 | 0.489 | 20.4% | 7.6% | 20.4% | 7.6% | 100.0 |
The first four columns indicate the resulting team AVG and SLG on all of each club’s balls in play (BIP) hit and allowed if they were hit in a neutral environment. The major league average AVG and SLG on all BIP in 2014 were .318 and .489, respectively. Clubs performing above that level offensively and yielding production below that level defensively were above average performers. The next four columns list each club’s offensive and defensive K and BB rates. The MLB averages in those categories were 20.4% and 7.6%, respectively, in 2014.
The last column represents each club’s Defensive Multiplier. Again utilizing granular batted ball data, I have established a method to evaluate team defense, from a big-picture macro perspective, rather than the play-by-play micro perspective that methods such as DRS and UZR utilize. Simply compare each team’s offensive and defensive actual and projected AVG and SLG – what each team “should” have hit/allowed based on the speed/exit angle mix of all balls in play (excluding home runs), and convert those actual and projected events to run values. You are basically comparing each team’s defense to that of their opponents over 162 games. If a team’s defense was exactly as good as their opponents’ over 162 games, their team Defensive Multiplier would be 100. Better than average defenses have scores under 100, below average team defenses have scores over 100.
Next, let’s convert all of the data in the first table into run values, and then do same Pythagorean magic, and come up with a series of projected win-loss records. 1) On only each club’s BIP hit/allowed, 2) adjusted for K and BB for/against, and 3) further adjusted for team’s Defensive Multiplier. This third projection represents the club’s true talent W-L record for 2014. For comparative purposes, each club’s 2014 actual and Pythagorean records are listed.
| 2014 | BIP W-L | K/BB ADJ | DEF ADJ | ACT W-L | PYTH W-L |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| BAL | 90-72 | 83-79 | 86-76 | 96-66 | 94-68 |
| NYY | 71-91 | 81-81 | 78-84 | 84-78 | 77-85 |
| TOR | 81-81 | 83-79 | 82-80 | 83-79 | 85-77 |
| TB | 76-86 | 88-74 | 87-75 | 77-85 | 79-83 |
| BOS | 80-82 | 77-85 | 75-87 | 71-91 | 72-90 |
There is an awful lot going on in those two tables. One thing is for certain; the widely divergent actual 2014 records of these five clubs didn’t accurately measure the relatively small actual difference in talent. Let’s drill down into the individual team numbers and make some broad observations about what made each club tick.
The Orioles’ chief strength was their ability to impact the baseball at the plate. By far, their hitters did more damage on balls in play compared to their divisional brethren, with Nelson Cruz, Steve Pearce and Adam Jones leading the way. The bottom four clubs in the division in pitching staff authority allowed on BIP were tightly bunched behind the Rays, with the O’s ranking 3rd, at just about MLB average. Based on BIP authority only, the O’s were a 90-72 club, easily the best in the division.
Things change quite a bit once K and BB rates are taken into the equation, however. The Orioles were worse than MLB average in all four K and BB rate categories, with their offensive BB rate and their pitching staff K rates the largest issues. Taking the K/BB information into account, the Orioles lose a full seven games off of their projection, down to a pedestrian 83-79. Though the O’s clearly had the best team defense in the East — their defensive multiplier of 97.0, primarily driven by quality work in the infield, was the only above average mark in the division — this only bumps them up to 86-76, 10 games shy of their actual record, and eight games off of their Pythagorean mark.
Joe Girardi sure has been able to make reasonably good lemonade out of the lemons he has been dealt over the past couple of seasons. The Yankees’ offensive BIP authority was among the poorest in baseball last season, ranking 4th among the five AL East clubs. Their pitching staff’s BIP authority allowed was the division’s weakest, though it wasn’t far higher than the MLB average. On BIP authority alone, the Yanks were a 71-91 club last season, easily the worst in the division.
Unlike the Orioles, however, K and BB were the Yankees’ friends. Their offensive K rate was far below the MLB average, and their pitching staff K and BB rates were also far better than league norms. While their low offensive K rate went hand in hand with their poor BIP authority due to the presence of weak contact guys such as Derek Jeter and Ichiro Suzuki, their pitching staff K and BB rates were real, and could be even better this season if Masahiro Tanaka and Michael Pineda can stay healthy. Overall, their K/BB proficiency adds a full 10 games to their 2014 projection, making them an 81-81 club. Their poor team defense, especially in the infield, gives three of those games right back, making them a true-talent 78-84 club, just a game better than their Pythagorean record, but six games below their actual mark.
The 2014 Blue Jays were an interesting bunch. One might think that their offensive BIP authority would be better than third in a weak offensive division, with the presence of mashers Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion. The Jays again did give a whole lot of at bats to weak slap hitters, however, dragging the team performance down. Their pitching staff’s BIP authority allowed was second best in the division, but only slightly better than MLB average. On BIP authority alone, the Jays were an 81-81 club.
The effect of K and BB on the Jays’ performance was a clear split decision; they were much better than MLB average on offense, and much worse on the mound. The presence of some of those slap hitters in their lineup helped keep their team K rate much lower than MLB average. It must be noted that Bautista also did his part, continuing to whittle away at his K rate while maintaining big power totals. On balance, the Jays’ K/BB proficiency adds two games to their projection, up to 83-79. The Jays’ overall team defensive multiplier was below average at 101.7, mostly due to poor outfield defense, and docks them a game down to 82-80, one game behind their actual record, and three games behind their Pythagorean mark.
The Rays are the mirror image of the Orioles, as their true talent greatly outstripped their actual 2014 performance. Their offensive BIP authority was easily the weakest in the East, as was their pitching staff’s BIP authority allowed. On BIP authority alone, the Rays were a 76-86 club, 4th in the division, virtually matching their actual standing.
Oh, but those K’s and BB’s. The Rays were above average in all four K and BB rate categories, and were far superior in offensive K and BB rate and pitching staff K rate. This adds an amazing 12 games onto the Rays’ 2014 projection, up to 88-74. Yes, David Price was a big part of this on the pitching side, but the guys left behind, including Price replacement Drew Smyly, were pretty good as well. Their team defensive multiplier was slightly below average at 100.9, with their infield grading out fairly poorly, docking them one game down to 87-75. Yup, based on this method, the Tampa Bay Rays were an 87-75 true-talent club last season, nosing out the O’s by a single game. Of course, this far outdistances their actual (by 10 games) and Pythagorean (by 8 games) records.
Lastly, and leastly, at least in even years, were the Red Sox. Though their offensive BIP authority was below MLB average, it was second best in a relatively weak division. Their pitching staff BIP authority allowed was fractionally worse than MLB average, but ranked fourth in the East. On BIP authority alone, the Sox were an 80-82 club.
The Red Sox were hurt a bit on K’s and BB’s, ranking well below MLB average in offensive and pitching staff K rate. This subtracts three wins from their projection, down to 77-85. Their team defensive multiplier, largely because of below average infield defense, was 102.5, better than only the Yanks in the East. This drops their projection by two more games, down to 75-87, four games above their actual record, and three better than their Pythagorean mark.
Before we move on to 2015, one more thought on the O’s-Rays conundrum. It might be tough to accept at face value that one club that finished 19 games behind another might actually have been a better club than the other. Their Pythagorean marks are still separated by a healthy 15 games. If you look at offensive and defensive OBP/SLG marks rather than runs scored to project their records, however, things change dramatically. The O’s were .311 OBP-.422 SLG on offense, .308 OBP-.382 SLG on defense. That’s an 89-73 club. The Rays were .317 OBP.367 SLG on offense, .300 OBP-.362 SLG on defense. That’s an 87-75 club. These two clubs were actually of very similar quality in 2014, but sequencing, the breaks, and the randomness of this great game of baseball went the Orioles’ way.
Let’s now look forward. Below are the current 2015 Steamer projections, as of Monday afternoon:
| STEAMER | 15 PROJ |
|---|---|
| BOS | 88-74 |
| TOR | 84-78 |
| TB | 83-79 |
| NYY | 83-79 |
| BAL | 79-83 |
Here we go again, in the crazy AL East. The comfortable 2014 winners, the Orioles, are projected to come in last. The 2014 cellar dwellers, the Red Sox, are projected to win it. The entire division is separated by nine games. Let’s briefly label and discuss each of the combatants below. One note; I haven’t delved into the clubs’ respective bullpens, as year-to-year club performance in that area tends to fluctuate wildly.
1 – BOSTON RED SOX – The “It’s An Odd Year, So…” Club
The Padres have been the clear headline-grabber of the second half of the postseason, but way back in November-December it was the Bosox that made their mark. Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez should greatly fortify their offense, and the addition of Rick Porcello, Justin Masterson and Wade Miley remakes their rotation. Though they thinned the upper level of their farm system a bit in enhancing the big club, there are still solid reinforcements on hand. Their major league position player depth is such that you can argue that no one, not even David Ortiz, is indispensable. Their starting pitcher depth is adequate, but unproven. Brandon Workman and Henry Owens are likely the first two in line should an opening arise. They have the highest floor in the division, and a reasonably high ceiling as well.
2 – TORONTO BLUE JAYS – The “Ride Your Stars” Club
If one were to assemble a divisional All Star team, the Jays would be well represented. Bautista, Encarnacion, Josh Donaldson, Jose Reyes, would lead the way. All four of those, at the very least, would have to be considered irreplaceable, and a loss of any one could cripple the Jays. Second base remains a gaping hole, and Dalton Pompey is talented, but raw in center field. Starting pitching depth is likely the leanest in the division, as Aaron Sanchez may or not be ready to be the #5, and Daniel Norris and Liam Hendricks are at the front of the short line behind them. Compared to the Sox, the Jays’ downside is much lower, but their upside is comparable.
3 – TAMPA BAY RAYS – The “Quietly Great Starting Rotation” Club
One might think that the Rays are in full rebuild mode, with the parting of Ben Zobrist, Wil Myers, Yunel Escobar and Matt Joyce, among others. What the Rays do have, however, is the single greatest strength possessed by any club in the AL East; their starting rotation. Assuming the healthy return of Matt Moore, the group of five that also includes Alex Cobb, Chris Archer, Jake Odorizzi and Drew Smyly is young and immensely talented. They strike out a ton of hitters, taking pressure off of their defense, and don’t walk many. They are asking quite a bit of Asdrubal Cabrera as an everyday shortstop, and of Steven Souza and Kevin Kiermaier on the outfield corners. Evan Longoria might be their only indispensable everyday player, and the rotation depth is ordinary behind the big five. Still, their floor is very high — likely above their actual 2014 mark — though their ceiling is likely only in the low-90’s.
4 – NEW YORK YANKEES – The “Desperately Trying To Turn The Page” Club
Jeter and Ichiro are gone, but the husks of Alex Rodriguez and Mark Teixeira remain. Despite the piles of dead money and disabled list days, Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi have scrambled to actually make this club somewhat relevant over the last two seasons. This team is being rebuilt around pitching; Tanaka, Pineda and Nathan Eovaldi should be a very interesting threesome, especially if CC Sabathia returns and is a reasonable facsimile of his old self. Their most indispensable everyday players are Jacoby Ellsbury, Brett Gardner, Brian McCann, Chase Headley and new shortstop Didi Gregorius. They truly are in the process of moving on from the old guard. Their rotation depth is fair, with Chris Capuano, Bryan Mitchell and Chase Whitley waiting in the wings. This team isn’t ready for prime time, as its ceiling is quite limited. Their solid rotation does give them a fairly high floor.
5 – BALTIMORE ORIOLES – The “Club Without An Offseason”
Now, the O’s might say that the whole Dan Duquette-To-The-Blue Jays thing didn’t negatively impact their offseason, but the facts suggest otherwise. The O’s lost three big pieces, Nelson Cruz, Nick Markakis and Andrew Miller, and added….well, Travis Snider, a couple weeks ago. The O’s have a large number of front-line players whose absence would make a pronounced impact; the loss of Matt Wieters, Chris Davis, J.J. Hardy, Manny Machado, Adam Jones and/or Steve Pearce would really hurt. They lost some of those guys last year and survived, but as we’ve discussed, the 2014 O’s were indeed a charmed club. Their starting rotation depth is fairly solid, as they have six big leaguers for five spots, with Ubaldo Jimenez the odd man out for now, and the very talented Dylan Bundy sitting behind them. Bluntly, this team has no position player depth; their ceiling is fairly high, but below their actual 2014 record, and their floor quite low.
Can the Yanks really count on anything from Tanaka next season?
I seem to be the only one who argues that they absolutely expect to get something from him. If his injury was that bad surgery would have been recommended. If Yanks expect him to further aggravate the injury it would be rather cruel, and stupid to throw him out there this year. I am not saying he does not have a greater risk than a pitcher who is not pitching with a partially torn ucl, I just wouldn’t understand him not already going ahead with surgery if further aggravation was inevitable. It may happen, it may not, but I don’t think it is a given.
Players generally don’t like to get surgery unless there’s absolutely no other option, and it may be that Tanaka’s particular UCL injury is holding together well enough that he’s got a chance. But very, very few players with this type of injury don’t end up having Tommy John in fairly short order, so relying on a player in that situation to have any hope of contending is a terrible place to be.
I can’t believe they dnt get surgery if it’s deemed a vey small chance he won’t wventually need it. All the time surgery is not black or white. If he has a 90% chance of whatever number you want to give of fully tearing his arm than not getting surgery is just dumb.
Would a doctor not recommend surgery if odds of worsening the injury are extremely high?
LOL Orioles fans BP spiking now!
O’s fans aren’t mad, lol. Orioles perform better when people doubt them. They love that. BP would be boiling if they had put the O’s first though!
“Orioles perform better when people doubt them.”
This is cringeworthy. When are O’s fans going to drop the inferiority complex
Probably when they stop being pegged for last the season after they they won the division by 14 freaking games!
In 2012 I was infuriated (for non-Orioles fans, that was the year that every website had a column seemingly every week about the O’s run differential and how it meant they had no hope whatsoever of making the playoffs). But then we were all vindicated.
Since then this sort of column amuses me. Analysts might as well keep picking the O’s to finish last. It’s like the gloved ladies at the slot machines. One of these years they’re going to be right, and then they can tell us all, “I told you so.”
Because of course their fan base is great at objectively analyzing things! *rolls eyes*
Maybe not, but let’s not act like Yankees and Red Sox fans are paragons of objectivity. Over the last three seasons, only two teams (Washington at 280 and Oakland at 277) have more wins than the O’s (tied with St. Louis at 274).
So, we’re supposed to expect a 17 game regression because Cruz and Markakis left? Let’s ignore the fact that Wieters, Machado, Hardy and Davis were all dealing with ongoing/season-ending injuries and Baltimore still managed to win the AL East by 12 games. Please check scouting reports before assuming there is nothing in the farm system. There is plenty of talent on the farm with guys like Alvarez, Walker, Urrutia, Yaz, Sisco and Harvey.
Yes, please keep fading the O’s. As long as Buck is in charge, everything will be just fine.
They are doing a lot of great things with the Nats money.
And Washington has a team only because of the MASN contract. I think the territorial rules are antiquated, especially for the Baltimore Washington area where the region between the two cities–Howard and Anne Arundel Counties–has filled up with people in the last two plus decades.
Still, if Angelos didn’t get what he wanted, no team in Washington D.C. He drives a hard bargain. As does the owner of the S.F. Giants.
Yeah, look at all those free agents they signed this offseason!
Man, hoping O’s fans dont act a little ridiculous. Sure, they’re projected to finish last. Sure they’ve outperformed their underlying indicators in the past.
But, honestly, who cares. They arent picked to put up 69 wins (lol), they’re basically a rounding error away from the first place team. There’s not much separation here.
And, the Orioles did nothing this offseason (better than doing terrible things, but still). I’m fairly confident the O’s will be a reasonably good team, which is enough to be in the conversation of post-season play — that’s enough for me.
Really, 79 wins, 88 wins, eh whatever.
“Really, 79 wins, 88 wins, eh whatever.”
Indeed… Wins, losses, who cares? As long as the projections say we’re good that’s all that matters.
wait, Justin Masterson and Wade Miley constitutes “remaking” a rotation?? some cognitive dissonance going on there I think.
Most underrated in the ALE: Yankees and Rays.
Most likely to lead the division: Jays
Most likely to continue to surprise the “computer model” crowd: O’s
Jays 89
O’s 87
Yanks 85
Rays 82
Sox 80
in a return to toughest division status.
They added Rick Porcello too, and added Joe Kelly to their rotation at the trade deadline last year. I’d say 4 out of 5 new starters from Opening Day to Opening Day constitutes a remaking.
I think “remaking” implies a net positive and about that I have serious questions. It looks to me like the Sox have the worst pitching in the division, and it’s not particularly close.
If you think the Sox have the easily the worst pitching in the division I would direct you to the Jays depth chart page.
2014 as SP:
Stroman (23): 120.1ip, 3.2war (5.3war/200ip)
Porcello (25): 202.2ip, 3.2war (3.2war/200ip)
Buehrle (35): 202.0ip, 3.5war (3.5war/200ip)
Buchholz (29): 170.1ip, 2.2war (2.6war/200ip)
Hutchison (23): 184.2ip, 2.6war (2.8war/200ip)
Miley (27): 201.2ip, 1.7war (1.7war/200ip)
Dickey (39): 215.1ip, 2.1war (2.0war/200ip)
Kelly (26): 96.1ip, 0.6war (1.3war/200ip)
Estrada (30): 107.0ip, -0.8war (-1.5war/200ip) — (2012-13: 257.1ip, 4.8war, 3.7war/200ip)
Masterson (29): 125.1ip, 0.3war (0.5war/200ip) — (2013: 395.2ip, 5.4war, 2.7war/200ip)
Hendriks (25): 25.2ip, 0.2war (1.6war/200ip) — (AAA: 143.1ip, 2.65fip)
Workman (25): 80.2ip, 0.6war (1.5war/200ip) — (AAA: 61.1ip, 4.52fip)
AAA Norris (21): 22.2ip, 2.21fip (MLB RP: 6.0ip, 6.13fip)
AAA Owens (21): 38.0ip, 3.59fip (MLB RP: —)
AAA Sanchez (21): 34.1ip, 4.87fip (MLB RP: 33.0ip, 2.80fip)
AAA Barnes (24): 127.2ip, 3.71fip (MLB RP: 9.0ip, 3.47fip)
now we know the projections for some reason think a bunch of prime aged red sox pitchers will suddenly take a giant collective leap forward this year, but I’m guessing those will be about as successful as last year’s red sox projections were.
If you honestly think Buerhle likely to post another 3+ win season this year then more power to you, I guess. Otherwise its pretty irrelevant what he did last year.
More to the point though, the projections say they are pretty close and give the Red Sox the edge. So regardless of what subjective argument you want to put forward, the claim that “no one is even close to as bad as the red sox” is just not true.
haven’t people been saying this about Buehrle for like the last 6 yrs or so?
I bet you buehrle gets closer to another 3win season than he does to that projected 1.5win season.
over his 2yrs with the jays he’s averaged 3.1war. in his 30s he’s averaged 3.1war per season. over his career he’s averaged 3.7 war per season. that’s not a typo.
and his stuff is not the kind of stuff that age takes too hard a toll on.
and now this command master has one of the best pitch framers in baseball to throw to.
each team’s Starting 6 2014 total WAR:
TOR: 10.8
TBR: 10.5
NYY: 10.2
BAL: 9.7
BOS: 8.6
and in Norris and Sanchez, the jays probably have the best pair of AAA SP prospects in the division as depth, too.
Why would remaking imply a net positive? Remaking simply means “making again or differently.” They have 4 new starting pitchers and they’ve reallocated some of those resources elsewhere.
The chatter since the Red Sox last move has been that they have plenty of depth and good players, but that they could arguably add another “ace” level starting pitcher. That’s why we as fans have been linking them to the Phillies and Nationals. They don’t have to, as their rotation as currently constructed is a perfectly acceptable and adequate rotation, but that adding a Strasburg/Zimmerman/Hamels could push Kelly or Masterson to the bullpen, thus improving and affording them more depth in the rotation.
Buerhle also had a 70 point difference between his ERA and xFIP last year.
a bit off topic, but everyone is drastically underrating the Braves:
2014 starting pitcher war:
Braves: 11.2
Giants: 8.9
yet one is widely projected to be a playoff team and the other is considered mediocre….
Consider the difference between the Braves’ and Giants’ position players, though – Freeman should be good, Simmons should provide excellent defense and little offense, Markakis might be okay, and…that’s pretty much it. The Giants have Posey and Belt who are excellent, Pagan and Pence are strong players, and most every one of their regulars are at least pretty good.
I don’t think “remaking” implies a net positive.
re·make
verb
gerund or present participle: remaking
r??m?k/
make (something) again or differently.
you can always tell the imposter everdisos by their false facts.
the braves current staff combined for 6.1war last year. their entire team combined for about 16war last year.
you redsox fans imposters are adorable.
I severely doubt the Red Sox finish below .500..look at the depth of their team. If pitching becomes an issue, they have several areas to trade from to improve that.
If the Red Sox can even eke out 70 wins, I’d be shocked. Year in year out they continually are overrated by every media outlet, particularly Fangraphs. To the point that we simply can’t trust these “projections” about them anymore. Honestly when was the last time they didn’t drastically under-perform their preseason projections?
nope, myflatteringshadow, the sox should be better than last year.
No, impostor, they won’t. Maybe marginally, but they look to slot in the same spot in the division once the season ends.
you are adorable, myflatteringshadow, but you’re not very good at this.
I’m done responding everyone can tell who the real person is. Enjoy your clearly sad little life
cute my admirer. I expect some roses from you for Valentine’s day.
ahh myflaterringshadow youre clearly trying to emulate my writing style. A valiant effort. No matter, I shall simply cease giving you the attention you so clearly feed on
SO META…
“Honestly when was the last time they didn’t drastically under-perform their preseason projections?”
2013?
yep. my minion army there does a poor job with facts.
Red Sox have the worst pitching in the division, a 39 yo DH, Napoli and Victorino coming off serious surgeries, Pedroia apparently into his decline, Craig with chronic foot problems, rookie catchers, a rookie CFer, and legit questions about how all their changes will mesh. What is a projection system?
Victorino and Craig are their 4th and 5th outfielders. Their CF is a rookie because that rookie is better than Victorino and Craig. Napoli and Ortiz are great hitters so I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Listen, I’m not even a Red Sox fan but don’t be ridiculous.
have to agree to disagree there, mon frere.
Red Sox can hit. They always can hit. Their starters and bullpen are iffy theo in my opinion.
That’s French for “brother”. I don’t know why I know that! I took four years of Spanish!
They are great hitters, but have questions. Napoli obvious health concerns, and despite the power Ortiz shown last yr there are signs of decline. Ortiz had a 100 pt drop in OPS from 2013. He had his worst K rate since 2010, and he had his worst LD rate since 2010, free falling from 22.6 to 17.7, which explains his massive drop in BABIP. The bat speed can very well be slowing down. The Hr/rbi last yr seem to have masked obvious signs of decline to me. Throw in injury risks with Sandoval, Hanley, while relying on rookies/2nd yr players and I see a ton of questions with Boston.
Wow you’re totally right! If everything breaks wrong then, yup they’re going to suck. But likely some guys will under-perform and some guys will over-perform and they’ll settle somewhere in the middle. And that’s likely the strongest “middle” of the teams in the division. Injuries are a crapshoot and a concern for every team, especially in this era.
Haha nice reply. Because the opposite can’t be said? Seems like they need a lot to break right. 3 of their best hitters have regressed big time. Are you going to argue that? What have I said about Ortiz is not true? Not to mention hanley is simply a downgrade to what they had last yr in cespedes.
The outlook on Boston ks way too optimistic. And you ignoring any downside shows this.
And you may want to read my reply again. I simply said they have questions. Not that they will “suck”. Someone sounds like a Boston fan who is a little too defensive about his team.
Uh oh, you didn’t get the intended response from your concern trolling post about their remade rotation, better go for the jugular and call out their hitters too!
At least you tried
The Jays starting pitching makes me cringe. If Marcus Stroman struggles, boy could they be in trouble because there isnt a whole lot after him.
The only saving grace may be that the rest of the division isnt in much better shape.
You mean the Jays’ starting pitching that was seventh in the league in WAR last season? Right behind the Rays?
The starting staff that replaces J.A. Happ with someone talented like Sanchez or Norris this season? That has a top receiver in Russell Martin catching for them now? That saw significant adjustments resulting in improvements by Stroman and Hutchison over the second half of last season?
If there is a weakness it is probably the bullpen but that’s assuming they don’t do anything else or that someone like Steve Delabar doesn’t step up his game this season. Maybe Sancheq ends up there again. Bullpens are the great unknown, I’m not worried about that at the moment, there is time.
The starters on the other hand are a lot better than you think.
the Jays probably have the deepest group of high ceiling arms of any farm system in baseball. Not all of them are going to see the majors this yr of course, but they are in very good shape going fwd.
The Jays probably have the best system in baseball, period. With the possible exception of the Cubbs.
TWINS FOR THE WIN
nah, wouldn’t say the best system, minion, but a pretty darn good one.
The Jays are best situated to challenge the Orioles. I hate to root against RA dickey because he’s such a great human being, but he’s probably going to falter this season, leaving only Stroman, and one fifth of a rotation doesn’t make a division winner.
Sure they were 7th in WAR but the were also 23rd in xFIP and 20th in SIERA so its not exactly something to get super excited about.
Which is probably why the current projections have them in the bottom third among starting rotations in 2015.
Agreed. The Yankees are hoping that Pineda, C.C. Sabathia (arthritic knee) and Tanaka can stay healthy. As the fangraphs guys like to say: there’s no better predictor of future injury than your record of previous injuries. And Nova is coming off TJ surgery, so it looks like Girardi wil be going to Betances often again. How will he hold up under a heavy work load two years in a row?
Jays: Stroman will be good IMHO, but the rest of the staff looks shaky. Martin can help Hutch, maybe, but he won’t know where Dickey’s pitches are going anymore than anybody who catches a knuckleballer. And if Estrada gets the fifth starter job or fills in for an injured starter, watch the HRs fly. Norris the wild card here. I just can’t see Sanchez helping with his control problems. Most likely a reliever.
Orioles: no way that all of their starters (maybe one) out pitches their peripherals two year in a row. So the hitters and the bullpen will be the key. Showalter doesn’t wait long before giving his starters the hook, so maybe the bullpen can mask this weakness. Gausman and Bundy the wild cards here.
Red Sox: maybe Masterson has a resurrection, maybe not. Porcello and Miley should be decent. No ace, just a bunch of #3s. If you believe in Buchholz, I say you’re a man of deep faith.
Rays: lots of pitching, but no run support. Longoria will be seeing a lot of pitches just outside of the strike zone.
National stats-based analyst picks Orioles last.
In other news, the sun rises in the east.
If you want to improve the projection systems, by all means..
I don’t know why articles like this are even bothered being written on here, with the level of stupidity it brings out in the comments
you’re right, why shouldn’t people pay more attention to “projection systems” that continually trash the O’s.
Excuse me, I’d like to respond to your “level of stupidity” complaint but I don’t understand the sentence.
Can you please explain the clause “are even bothered being written on here”?
I’d rather not get into this kind of conversation with you, keep thinking that you and the Orioles are so important that there’s some baseball wide conspiracy against them and your fandom.
“Baseball-wide conspiracy?” Hahahaha. Oh wait — the MASN debacle. Hmm.
But I can understand why you don’t want to get into a conversation. Doesn’t seem like your strength.
How old are you guys? Sheesh. It’s like reading yahoo comments on here.
Your many comments about this sure make it seem like you’re not angry about projections systems not liking the Orioles anymore.
As an Orioles fan, I’m happy to see their projections continue in this way. It makes the season more fun.
Team with awful K/BB from its pitchers signs pitch framer extraordinaire? Good work, Jays.
Wieters, Machado, and Davis all missed significant time last season and the Orioles won 96 games. I wonder if this assessment of depth is flawed. In fact, I would characterize this as an Orioles strength, given the creative ways that Showalter manages the full 40-man roster (and beyond). My biggest fear is regression from their bullpen (not addressed here). Expected regressions for Pearce and the loss of Cruz should be partially offset by better performances from Wieters, Davis, Machado, and Schoop. If any player such as Snider, De Aza, or Young have a hot month or two, then there should be little offensive drop off, and it might even be better than last season. And I would argue that the Orioles defensive advantage is as big a separator as the Rays’ rotation.
We’ll see Fangraphs.
come on now, don’t anger the comment police. they’ll be coming for you.
Davis didn’t miss a particularly significant amount of time – he had a minor oblique strain that put him on the 15-day DL early in the year, and was suspended at the end of the season after the division was already wrapped up. He was just, well, bad. Maybe having healthy obliques helps him improve some, but maybe not.
Wieters and Machado did miss significant time, but it’s reasonable to wonder whether peak-level healthy production can be expected of a catcher coming off of significant surgery and a player who’s had two serious knee injuries within a few months of playing time.
Any objective outside assessment has to consider this a risky team.
Okay, Davis didn’t miss that much time (about a month overall), but his oblique injury did affect his swing all year.
My main question was with the premise that the Orioles are especially doomed if one of their main players goes down. That is a bizarre assertion considering that very thing happened to 2 of them last year and they still won the division going away. Again, I think their skillful roster management mitigates the effects of this. That being said, any team suffers when its best players get hurt.
It is those sort of strange, subjective and rather dismissive comments that have O’s fans question analysis on here. I think staheads resent the Orioles because they make their systems look bad. And I think defense is the key to why they out-perform projections, but I really don’t have an answer.
Yeah, I’m one who also wonders how the Orioles can only be projected to win 79 games considering the injuries they had last yr to Wieters and Machado
Watching the Yankees sink to the bottom of the toilet is very satisfying.
attaway to stay classy, Barry.
Can the Red Sox generate just a small percentage of Panda mania??
I still don’t understand why Marco Estrada is not a part of the SP depth for Toronto on fangraphs. I would think that as of today, he is the front runner by a fair margin to win the #5 job out of spring training, with Sanchez in the BP and Norris at AAA.
Maybe 27 HR in 107 innings as a starter. The dome is not likely to help that number.
Orioles fans are starting to sound like The last five years worth of Giants fans. The only difference is the amount of rings.
Yawn
sneeze
The Red Sox have a $200m payroll.
Do they have even one player who’s a decent bet to make the allstar team this year based on performance?
yes? several? Even if they don’t (in your opinion), having so many 3 WAR players that some of them have to sit on the bench isn’t necessarily worse than having a Mike Trout and a bunch of garbage around him.
Ortiz and Pedroia and Hanley are good bets. Or as good a bet as almost any one player is to be the best at their position.
You pink-hatters are the best!!! If the Sox get to 81-81 I’ll consider it a great year.
which one of them was top 2 at their position last year?
2014
AL DH wRC+: 1.Martinez 166, 2.Encarnacion 150, 3.Cruz 137, 4.Ortiz 135
AL 2B WAR: 1.Zobrist 5.7, 2.Kinsler 5.4, 3.Cano 5.2, 4.Altuve 5.1, 5.Dkzier 4.6, 6.Kendrick 4.6, 7.Pedroia 4.4
AL OF WAR: 1.Trout 7.8, 2.Brantley 6.6, 3.Gordon 6.6, 4.Bautista 6.3, 5.Jones 5.4, 6.Cain 4.9……15.Ramirez 3.4
AL OF wRC+: 1.Trout 167, 2.Pearce 161, 3.Bautista 159, 4.Brantley 155, 5.Martinez 153, 6.Cruz 137, 7.Ramirez 135
Because of course fan voting always very closely tracks player WAR…
which one of them was top 2 at their position last year?
i’d say Pedrioa, Sandoval, Hanley, Ortiz, Uehara could all be good bets..maybe Napoli too. It’s a good bet that at least 2 of those guys are on the team.
Does it matter? Are you suggesting “number of players in top 2 (why 2?) the previous year” is how we should evaluate teams?
I certainly think that the amount of elite performers is a key component to evaluating a team. especially since it is obviously easier to patch together “competent” performance for cheap in weaker spots than it is to patch together elite performance in any slot.
but we can also talk about depth, too.
like, say, that the red sox starting lineup is made up of 5 good but not great performers most with notable age and/or injury related decline issues (pedroia, ort, hanley, naps, pablo) and 4 almost complete unknowns (betts, bogaerts, castillo, vazquez), plus a bench of typical journeymen (hanigan, holt, nava) and a couple of shot in the dark injury rebound hopefuls (victorino, craig). backed up by a handful of young but not that young guys, all of whom have been below average in AAA so far (Swihart, Bradley, Cecchini, Marrero).
or that behind a questionable front four their SP depth is a bunch of mid 20s guys with no track record of success (kelly, workman, barnes) and a few prospects, none of whom has been above average in AAA yet.
How many top 2 players did the Royals and Giants have?
Looks like…Posey? Maybe Gordon? I’m not sure those teams were really models of elite performance and depth, but hey, baseball is crazy.
You could argue they didn’t have anyone in the top-2 in 2013 either. Well, except Uehara if you’re counting the bullpen.
Maybe Victorino/Ellsbury depending on where you look and how you weigh defensive metrics. Possibly Ortiz.
Certainly none of those are clear-cut. And somehow they had the best record, run differential and won the WS. Superstars don’t necessarily make a roster— balanced positive contributions across the team, and depth, are likely a better bet.
don’t think that’s right. let me check…..
2013 AL WAR
RP 1.Uehara 3.3, 2.Holland 3.1
DH 1.Ortiz 3.8, 2.Hamilton 2.0
OF 1.Trout 10.5, 2.Ellsbury 5.8, 3.Victorino 5.6, 4.Jones 4.2, 5.Bautista 4.2, 6.Crisp 3.9
2B 1.Cano 6.0, 2.Zobrist 5.4, 3.Pedroia 5.4
1B 1.Davis 6.8, 2.Encarnacion 4.1, 3.Napoli 3.9
SS 1.Escobar 3.9, 2.Peralta 3.6, 3.Lowrie 3.5, 4.Hardy 3.4, 5.Drew 3.4
C 1.Mauer 5.1, 2.Castro 4.3, 3.Perez 3.7, 4.Gomee 3.6, 5.Salty 3.5
that’s 6-8 allstar calibre performances in 2013. probably the most in mlb that year.
The Orioles are clearly doing something well that isn’t being taken into account by these projection systems.
I can’t find Steamer’s predictions for the past, but it’s probably similar to PECOTA which has been low on the Orioles by 21, 11, and 22 wins over the past 3 years.
I don’t see why pointing that out is so upsetting to some folks. 18 wins per year over 3 years should be considered outside of the acceptable standard deviation of a useful projection system.
I think comments calmly laying out where they think the projections are flawed and why wouldn’t be poorly received at all. What annoys people is when Orioles fans comment on it with an air of personal affront and take it as a deliberate slight. That doesn’t exactly promote reasonable discussion.
Wait .. are you saying Orioles fans annoy the Internet with their air of personal affront?
OMG man, let me introduce you to this baseball outfit from Boston.
Well, it’s the O’s (and Jay’s, I guess?) fans in this thread. If those fans want to carry themselves like they’re better than Boston fans, then they’d need to act like it.
People here are discussing true talent. Move along now with your game results.
I won’t try to claim that there isn’t something to the O’s overperformance. There could be!
But saying that PECOTA or ZIPS or any other system has been low for three years isn’t really evidence of it. It MIGHT be there, but until you know what the thing is, you can’t really say that it exists. It is just as valid to say that they’ve been ridiculously lucky, and lucky in a way that stands out a lot.
Like, for instance, take the 2013. They were INCREDIBLY lucky. But they also won the World Series and had the best record in the league, so it doesn’t stick out as much.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=24965
Here’s why people get a little tired of O’s fans getting angry: They say it’s not luck, everyone else says prove it’s not luck, because that’s the basis of science, and O’s fans often just say “We don’t need proof, it’s obvious!”
I hope the O’s continue to do well. We need more wrinkles in baseball because it makes for neat analysis. But there’s no proof yet that it’s a real thing.
Nerf, by your own logic: the Orioles have overperformed projections for 3 years. You write, “until you know what the things is, you can’t really say it exists.”
Wouldn’t that also be true about luck? At some point, after 486 trials (games), a scientist begins to look for a factor that hasn’t been identified, or in this case has been undervalued. Passing it off as “luck” seems to me a cop-out.
Moreover, there has been some excellent work in this area. I forget where I saw the study, but a site showed that the Orioles last year gave fewer PAs and IPs to below-replacement-level players than anybody else. They have below-replacement-level substitutes; everybody does. One way in which they are adding victories is by identifying these players quickly and using somebody else.
I’d like to see more rigorous work in this area. You are bothered when Orioles fans complain about analysts saying their results are “luck,” but “luck” is what analysts say when they haven’t done enough research.
How can you scientifically prove it’s not luck when there is no such thing as luck in science??? I guess you could argue that its random occurrences, but again modern science tells us that there is really no such thing as random, there are simply factors that can’t be accounted for.
If you really look at it scientifically, any difference between the actual outcome and the projection of a model is due to inaccuracies and inefficiencies in the model as opposed to errors in the actual outcome (which is not possible), “luck” or magic rabbit feet.
I think there are factors that are virtually impossible to be accounted for in a model created by man, but trying to ignore that the imperfections of the model exist and instead blaming the inefficiency of the model on “luck” is in itself extremely unscientific.
I’ve always thought the reason why the projections have undervalued the Orioles is because defense is the hardest thing to quantify. The Orioles have the luxury to have had an exceptional defense the past 3 years, which is something most teams in MLB haven’t sustained. Of course, the pitchers are going to benefit from that, which they have, and overperform according to their projections.
As an O’s fan, I don’t find it upsetting, and I’m not surprised either. I think Buck Showalter does a great job managing the roster and shuffling players back and forth to Norfolk as he sees fit. I also think his use of the shift contributes to the teams success.
The article mentions, to paraphrase, “For those who think the Blue Jays-Dan Duquette situation didn’t have an impact, the facts suggest otherwise”. The moves that have impacted the Orioles the most during Duquette’s past 3 years have happened mostly during July and August. Other than Nelson Cruz and I guess Ubaldo Jimenez, the Orioles offseasons usually haven’t made much headlines. The last “high profile player” they signed was Vladimir Guererro in 2011.
To add to my above comment about defense, the Orioles pitchers of the 1970’s benefited from a historically great defense. Any pitcher then and probably now would give their left nut to have B Robinson, Belanger, Grich, and Murray behind them, and Blair, Bumbry, and Ken Singleton in the outfield. Even Jim Palmer admits he wouldn’t have been the same pitcher without those guys, and for Jim Palmer, that’s a huge shot for his ego to admit.
The quality of the present Orioles outfield defense is an arguement to be had, but nobody can deny their infield, which has a huge impact on their pitching. If they continue to have an outstanding infield defense, I think we’ll be having the same discussion next offseason when the ’16 projections come out.
the Red Sox literally had 0 players last year who were the best at their position. Not even a single one was best in the AL. I’m either going crazy/losing my logical abilities (not likely) or everyone is severely overrating them
They won in ’13 with only one of those players and it was Victorino. The general idea is that that year they got 5.6 out of Victorino but -.2 from 3B. This year, they may get only 3 out of RF but they are a decent bet to get 2.5 out of Sandoval at 3rd.
For the logic to hold, you have to prove two points:
1) If the Sox were to get 5.4 out of 3B and RF (same as in 2013 out of Victorino), the 2013 distribution of WAR would be better than the 2015.
2) Teams having a top player at a given position in their league* correlates with better teams. A rough analysis of the past 3 years in the AL shows:
Teams in playoffs with top player: Tigers x3, Athletics, Angels, Orioles, Red Sox, Rays, Athletics, Giants, Yankees
Teams out of playoffs: Angels x2, Indians, Blue Jays x2, Rays x2, Twins, Yankees, Royals
Teams in Playoffs without a top player that year: 2012 Orioles, 2012 Texas (wild card), 2013 Indians (You might have to check me on that one), 2014 Royals, 2014 Royals, 2014 Orioles.
What might need to be done next is consider the winning percentage of these teams but you’ll mostly find noise is my guess. Yes, having a single player make up a certain percentage of you team WAR is good. It helps cover up a disaster position (Wil Middlebrooks) but if the team is well rounded, not having a top player should not correlate with having a worse team than one that has a top player (with no other qualifications on the make up of this team). You need a whole team to analyze a whole team, not just a single fact (a top play at their position).
*Here’s another problem. Why does best at their position in the AL matter as much as best at their position in their division? What about a team that doesn’t have the best players in their league but has the best in their division? That team is probably likely to make the playoffs and be a good team despite not having a top player in their league. It’s just a bad criteria for judging a team.
weak point.
more interesting would be noting that the red sox have zero top-50 2014 players on their roster, two top-100 (pedroia #51 4.4war, hanley #95 3.4war), and four top-150 (porcello #116 3.1war, sandoval #126 3.0war).
that’s below league average performance at the top of the roster, which is really poor for a team with a $200m payroll.
sorry SS Cabathia, I was responding to my shadow up there.
Myflatteringshadow, you’re not fooling anyone with this. You can try and be me calling out my own imposter (you), but you’ve made it too complex and no one is falling for it.
My minion has inadvertetly outed themselves! A weak point that was bound to crack eventually. Now you can all see that I am the real everdiso and “Michael Scarn” is a fake.
Sox fans reliably go nuts should anyone dare to say anything unflattering about their beloved team however realistic it may be.
Not like Oriole fans, of course. You certainly can’t ruffle their feathers.
other than their starting rotation and defense, the Red Sox has a good team.
Serious question: is it possible for the Orioles to outperform these projection systems long enough to make writers doubt the projections even a little bit? Like: even if they do it 10 years in a row, there will be enough roster turnover that it won’t be like the 2012 Orioles and the 2022 Orioles had enough in common to be considered the same team.
I think the fact that the Orioles feature a lot of stuff that’s difficult to measure accurately (team defense, excellent manager, at least two pitchers that seem to systematically outperform their peripherals consistently) should give writers pause when looking at these models. Why is “Tampa was a better team despite the O’s winning the division by 15 games” more likely than “maybe the O’s did some things that lead to winning baseball games that aren’t fully captured in our projections?”
It was one thing when talking about the 2012 Orioles and their insane luck in one-run and extra innings games. But the 2014 team was excellent by basically every reliable standard used to measure team performance (W-L, Pythagorean W-L, SRS). To dismiss that performance out of hand because the model you’re using doesn’t like it might say more about the limitations of your model than about the 2015 Orioles.
The projections aren’t surprising because they’re basically putting out the same team, minus Nelson Cruz. The article mentions Nick Markkakis as one of the “3 key players” the Orioles lost and hasn’t replaced, when his replacement is obviously Travis Snider, who projects about the same as Markakis. I won’t even count 2 months of Andrew Miller as a loss, especially when the Orioles had no intention of retaining him. The Orioles didn’t improve or get any worse over last year.
It’s not crazy to think the Orioles will be better in 2015. Cruz is a big loss but they will be better at other positions. Replacing Caleb Joseph’s .200 hitting with a full season of Matt Wieters and a full season of Manny Machado at 3B will improve the team. I’d also add that a full season of Kevin Gausman taking starts from Ubaldo Jimenez will go a long way to improving the team as well. And while Steve Pearce is very likely to regress downwards, Chris Davis is a good candidate to regress upwards.
People really need to stop all the whining on both sides and learn what projections are. They are not predictions. Those are two very different things.
They strip away bias, emotion and cannot predict sequencing or luck and randomness. Just because a team wins X amount of games one year, does not autimatcially mean they should be projected for the same win total next year, even if by some weird coincidence they had the exact same roster.
Some players come out of nowhere(Pearce), others get hurt (Machado, Weiters), some stink unexpectedly (Davis), some years you get insanely lucky in 1 run games, or maybe your HRs come with nobody on base rather than 2 guys on, or maybe everyone on your team has a great defensive season that may or may not repeat.
Projections are not infallible. They’re just a starting point, so people really need to lighten up when they see a projection that doesn’t jive with their own emotional and biased view of the team in question.
That’s why I’m whining about the writer, not the projections. Using projections to say confidently stuff like “Tampa actually was a better team in 2014!” is what I object to, not that these projections exist.
I also don’t think people should put too much stock into preseason projections. A lot can happen between now and opening day.
Why are AL East discussions always so catty and butthurterry?
Yeah, I don’t get it either. People are bored and irritable, I guess? Seems weird that there’d be so much anti-projection sentiment at Fangraphs, of all places.
Good rivalries = we don’t like each other. Add the projections “problem” with the Orioles and you have a recipe for saltiness.
I love these analyses that assume that all sabermetric projections are perfect except for “random” variation. Maybe you have wildly overestimated the impact of K/BB and wildly underestimated the value of defense. Or maybe your model fails to account for combination effects: K rates mean less when matched with good defense. The Orioles were way better than the rest of the division in 2014, whether your statistical analysis is able to show it or not.
There is a virtue that the Orioles possess that is not quantifiable, and is therefore ignored by the stats crowd.
However, it is very real, and has been since 2012, and that is why the Orioles consistently do better than their projections.
Ignoring bullpens in projections is to ignore a very important part of some teams strategies.
The Baltimore bullpen is the best in the east, and can be reliably counted on to save leads.
The Oriole pen is followed most closely by the Yankees’, but the Yankee bullpen is going to be wasted, because they’re going to be so if you late inning leads to protect.
Nothing to worry about for oriole people, there’s nothing stopping us from winning it again.
The Yanks bullpen is going to be good, and the Orioles’ could fall back a bit.
I’m not sure I would consider Miller a “big piece” for the Orioles last year. He pitched a total of 20 innings. Those 20 inning were nice, but they were hardly the difference for the Orioles.
Adding Rick Porcello, Justin Masterson and Wade Miley may “remake” the Red Sox rotation, but I’m not sure it “remakes” it into a good thing. We’re talking about ERAs of 3.43, 5.88 and 4.34 last year. That’s pretty abysmal for a #1, #3 and #4.
I’m sure that each has showed up to camp in the best shapes of their lives, has learned a new grip, or recovered from a hidden injury; but come on.