Rays and Cardinals Go Back to the Well

Imagine, if you will, running the Rays. As you ponder your next fleecing acquisition, a lackey rushes in. “Sir! I’ve found a new undervalued talent to acquire!” Before you can even ask, he continues. “He’s on the Cardinals, and his name is Randy Ar–.”

“The Cardinals?!?” You thought you’d trained your lackeys better. “They probably won’t even take our phone calls. They hate us! They never forgave us for that time we sent them Revelation Cabrera.”

Génesis, sir. And I’ve got that angle covered. We’ve been working on our player operations department, as you know. And Kean, the new recruit we released to bring us back information from other clubs? He already has a mole.”

Of course, this isn’t how major league front offices work. They all have each other on speed dial. They go to the same conferences, hire people back and forth, and value players using roughly similar frameworks. One bad trade isn’t enough to jam up the works; teams understand that baseball players have unknowable and variable outcomes, that sometimes Tommy Pham is a key cog and sometimes he hurts his hip.

I’m getting ahead of myself. Let’s talk details. Thursday night, the Rays sent Matthew Liberatore, Edgardo Rodriguez, and a Competitive Balance Round B pick to the Cardinals in exchange for Randy Arozarena, José Martínez, and a Competitive Balance Round A pick. That’s a lot of moving parts, so we’ll break them down one by one before talking about the overarching strategy behind it.

The bright shiny object in the trade is undoubtedly Liberatore. The 16th pick in the 2018 draft, Liberatore has the tools of a future ace. He sat around 93 mph on his sinker in Low-A this year, topping out at 97. He complements it with a curve, slider, and change. The curve is definitely the highlight here, a high-spin hammer he can command well. The slider shows promise too; he only picked it up his senior year of high school, and it’s developed quickly.

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It’s too early to read much into his pitching line; he pitched all of 2019 at 19 years old and played in full-season ball for the first time. But he struck out nearly a batter an inning despite struggling at times with his command. Nothing he’s shown since being drafted changes the overall perception of a future top-end starter who fell unexpectedly on draft day.

Edgardo Rodriguez didn’t play much in 2019, as a minor injury kept him off the field, but what Kiley and Eric had to say in 2018 is still relevant. He’s big for catcher and might not stick there, but given his performance at the plate, it might not matter. He has everything you’d want in a young hitter — bat control, good timing, and an all-fields approach that lets him barrel up balls across the diamond. There’s a risk he ends up as a first-or-outfield type, but he might hit enough there to make that work. And if he sticks at catcher, he has a chance to be an elite bat for the position.

José Martínez is a quintessential bat without a position. He’s been a Statcast darling over his three-and-change years with the Cardinals, displaying tremendous contact skills and sneaky power. The book with Martínez is that he can hit but can’t field; rumors of the Cardinals sending him to an American League team to DH started essentially as soon as he made the majors.

The Rays, notably, play in the American League. But Martínez had an uneven 2019, and he’ll turn 32 in July; there’s risk in this profile. If you like Martínez, you like his all-fields approach and absolutely blistered line drives. He put up a shocking .418 xwOBA in his 2017 debut, the fifth-best mark in baseball.

It didn’t look like some system fluke, either: he was crushing the ball. He hit line drives 26.6% of the time (and is at 25.6% for his career), showing excellent bat control. He rarely chased, made good contact, and drew walks. He even showed newfound power, though his 6-foot-6 frame had always portended some pop.

But he hasn’t looked the same since his breakout 2017. The Cardinals spun him between first base and right in 2018 to get him 590 plate appearances, and while the bat still played, his power declined and his defense was atrocious. And his 2019 was curtailed by a shoulder injury; his numbers took a dip across the board. At the same time, teams started attacking him with sliders outside the zone, his biggest weakness at the plate.

At this point in his career, Martínez is a cypher. He might have lost the tremendous reflexes he needs to make his unconventional stance and swing work. He might be back to full strength after dealing with his shoulder injury, though lingering injuries are worrisome too. He might excel when DH’ing regularly. We simply don’t know.

Similarly, there’s a lot we don’t know about Randy Arozarena. Though 24, this was only his third season in pro ball. He looked too good for the minor leagues in both Double-A Springfield (116, PA, .309/.422/.515 good for a 162 wRC+) and Triple-A Memphis (283 PA, .358/.435/.593 and a 151 wRC+) after struggling in Triple-A in 2018.

The underlying metrics are also impressive; he pummeled the ball, hitting 49% of his batted balls 95 mph or harder. He’s still a groundball hitter, but there’s power there, and not just Memphis-related power; it might be more doubles than dingers, but his slashing approach and plus speed (Eric and Kiley have him as a 60) provide a good baseline for those doubles.

When it comes to plate discipline, Arozarena shows uncommon poise for a player with his raw tools. Guys who combine his speed and feel for contact often end up swinging too much, overly secure in their ability to hit everything. That’s not Arozarena; he ran a below-average 41% swing rate in the minors in 2019 while making contact on more than 80% of his swings. If you want a major league comparison for those numbers, it’s roughly Xander Bogaerts.

In the field, he’s something of a tweener. He could probably handle center in the majors, albeit only passably. With Kevin Kiermaier ensconced there, he’ll slot into one of the corners. He played left and right in roughly equal proportion in the minors, and his arm is above average.

Depending on how much you want to weight performance and how much you want to weight tools, your rankings on Arozarena could vary wildly. He’s not an enormous guy, and he was never considered a top prospect, though a lot of that stems from a complicated defection from Cuba that saw him sit out most of 2015 and 2016.

But the minor league numbers are absolutely there, and the physical tools are as well. There’s something of a Luis Robert vibe here — not in the raw power, because Arozarena is small and slight where Robert is strapping, but in the excellent statistical performance that outpaces their prospect rankings. Steamer sees Arozarena as a league average hitter right now, not a bad piece for someone who can play center credibly.

All things considered, Arozarena looks like a potential average regular, which is what a 50 on the scouting scale is supposed to represent. You could knock him to a 45+ to account for the risk of the unknown and I wouldn’t be too upset with you, but there’s upside there too; if his pace in Triple-A continues, he might have more power than we project him for, though that’s still very speculative.

As for the pick swap, it’s simply a sweetener for the Rays. Craig Edwards valued the difference between the picks at roughly $4 million, and moving $4 million of cash in a trade featuring under $2 million in player salaries might look sketchy, so a draft pick swap it is!

With the players sufficiently covered, it’s time to think about what it means for the teams, and I’ll admit that I’m a bit puzzled about the net effect of the Rays’ last two big trades. In essence, they’ve exchanged Tommy Pham for José Martínez, Hunter Renfroe, and Randy Arozarena, while swapping some minor league picks in the process. I happen to be higher on Liberatore and Jake Cronenworth than I am on Xavier Edwards, but your mileage may vary on that particular tradeoff.

That aside, the Rays turned one relatively expensive outfielder into three cost controlled outfielders who are major league pieces right now. The team could stash Arozarena in the minors to start 2020, but he’ll be 30 by the time he hits free agency, which means there’s not much reason to play service time games. The outfield picture now looks incredibly crowded: Austin Meadows, Hunter Renfroe, Kevin Kiermaier, and Arozarena, with Daniel Robertson, Joey Wendle, Yoshi Tsutsugo, and Martínez all capable of faking the outfield.

The DH spot might be even messier. Tsutsugo, Ji-Man Choi, and Martínez are all essentially DH’s. Nate Lowe needs time at first base, and he’s probably too good to keep in the minors. That doesn’t leave a lot of places to hide whoever doesn’t DH. Martínez is the only righty in that group, so he’ll receive his fair share of playing time, but it’s going to be a complicated juggling act.

And the Rays are bursting at the seams with talent as it is. They’ve repeatedly engaged in 40-man legerdemain in the past year to keep from butting up against limits, and they’ve done quite well in getting the roster down to a manageable number, but Martínez and Arozarena put them right back up to 40, and they’ll have to do the same dance again in a year.

If the Rays think Arozarena is a long-term starter for them, this deal makes total sense. Otherwise, I don’t quite understand speeding up the roster crunch. If it’s an issue of age match, where they want players who are good now rather than in three years, then why trade Pham for Edwards? The reason to do it is for talent, and so they must have a high opinion of Arozarena.

For the Cardinals, this move is easier to understand. Martínez is more valuable to an AL team than an NL team, and the Cardinals were an especially bad NL landing spot. Paul Goldschmidt has first base handled, and the outfield is bumper-to-bumper traffic. He would have a hard time getting enough plate appearances.

Arozarena would have faced the same battle. Harrison Bader and Dexter Fowler look like pretty good bets to hold down outfield spots next year, though Fowler is more of a part-timer at this point in his career. Tyler O’Neill is in the mix for playing time, and the team is high on Lane Thomas. Mike Shildt hasn’t been shy about putting Tommy Edman in the outfield to give Matt Carpenter infield playing time. Top prospect Dylan Carlson is knocking on the door, and there’s smoke around a reunion with Marcell Ozuna.

The point is, the Cardinals didn’t have room to play these guys. Their 20 years of success has starved the system of high draft picks, and Liberatore (along with childhood friend Nolan Gorman) represents a concerted effort to acquire riskier high-ceiling prospects. Talents like Liberatore aren’t available in trade very often, and the team is right to covet them.

There’s been talk that this might presage a deal for Rockies third baseman Nolan Arenado, but that strikes me as excessively speculative. Yes, the Rockies have apparently made Arenado available, and yes, he’d be a good fit for St. Louis. But Liberatore would be a great fit for St. Louis too, and this trade makes sense without ulterior motives. Time will tell whether the Arenado rumors amount to anything, but you don’t need to believe them to like this trade.

I think I understand where both teams are coming from in this trade. The Rays saw a player they thought was undervalued by the market in Arozarena and went for him. Maybe they’re not as high as we are on Liberatore, but mainly they made an aggressive push for someone they wanted.

For the Cardinals, I like this trade more. Arozarena was wrongly undervalued for much of his minor league career — both by prospect lists and the team itself. Now that industry perception of him has risen, they’re cashing in on him, getting the top-end talent they crave in the process. Liberatore is easily within the top 100 prospects of baseball, perhaps in the top 50 depending on the source.

So would I do this trade if I were the Rays? Sure, I think so. They clearly like Arozarena, and he can make their team better right away. But would I do this trade if I were the Cardinals? In a heartbeat. Whatever my opinion of Arozarena, they clearly didn’t share it, or he would have gotten more opportunities in the majors. Given the chance to flip someone they don’t love for a top prospect, they seized the shot. The trade could work out for the Rays. But from a process standpoint, I’m with the Cardinals on this one.

Update: This article incorrectly referred to the general manager of the Tampa Bay Rays confusing a prospect with the 27th book of the New Testament. That book is Revelation, not Revelations. The copy has been updated to reflect this.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

62 Comments
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Rational FanMember since 2025
6 years ago

“But the minor league numbers are absolutely there, and the physical tools are as well. There’s something of a Luis Robert vibe here — not in the raw power, because Arozarena is small and slight where Robert is strapping, but in the excellent statistical performance that outpaces their prospect rankings.”

What does this even mean? Robert is a top 3 prospect everywhere but Fangraphs. I don’t think Robert’s performance outpaces his rankings, unless you’re using the one service (FG) that greatly under ranks him compared to the consensus.

Robert also has a 3 WAR projection as a rookie while Aroz’s sit’s around 1.5 in a full season.

dl80Member since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Robert’s horrible plate discipline means a) he has to get to every inch of his power and b) his average is going to be very BABIP dependent (and therefore, volatile). I don’t see him as can’t-miss at all.

Anthony Princeton
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

What horrible plate discipline? Nobody said he was can’t miss, just that FG is the outlier on Robert. Most other sites had Robert as a top 5 prospect at mid season of 2019.

Rational FanMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

1. Where did I ever say he was a can’t miss? I said comparing a top 3 ranked prospect in baseball to a guy who was 18th in the Cards system last year makes little sense.
2. The only publication that rates Robert lower than his production is FG’s.
3. 22 year old kids get better at baseball sometimes.
4. What motivation did Robert have to change his approach last year?

And lastly, I wasn’t critical of FG’s but I did expect the endless down votes – at least I actually read the articles before posting. The only reason he was compared to Robert is because they’re both Cuban – besides that, their profiles are nothing alike, and Robert is obviously a much bigger prospect in the grand scheme of things.

Travis LMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

The downvotes are probably because of the first sentence. This is the internet, where people assume a negative tone wherever they can. “What does this even mean” comes across as dismissive, which is a shame because the rest of your comment is spot on.

Rational FanMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

I also think his “horrible plate discipline” that you cite is integrated into his 3 WAR projection as a 22 year old Rookie.

RonnieDobbs
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Nobody called him a can’t miss that I see. Agreed that he isn’t a can’t miss, but as far as I can tell everyone agrees on that point.

Anthony Princeton
6 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Robert is also 2.5 years younger than Arozarena. So Robert is bigger, stronger, faster, a better fielder, better arm and is more than 2 years younger. Outside of being RH, OF’s from Cuba that produced in the minors I don’t see the connection either.

RonnieDobbs
6 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

He wasn’t great in 2018. Maybe that is what he is referring to. I am sure the sentence is more about the other guy and not really Robert.

ThrasiusMember since 2016
6 years ago

As a Rays fan, I don’t like this trade a lot, but it’s ok. Hopefully, Arozarena transforms similarly to his compatriot, Yandy Diaz, the Rays acquired last off season. He also had power (even more) with a low launch angle. So maybe that part works out, especially if Arozarena can play center.

Jose Martinez? Who knows? Players like him aren’t very valuable anymore if they aren’t all star caliber hitters. So it was really a ceiling for floor trade of Liberatore for Arozarena plus some other pieces.

Still, the Rays seem pretty good at this talent evaluation thing so I guess they get the benefit of the doubt on this one and the Pham trade, at least for now.

Rational FanMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrasius

I also think A-Ball pitching prospects are still overvalued by public prospect publications more-so than they are valued by teams internal evaluations.

ThrasiusMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

Excellent point, lots of time for Liberatore to fail. Though that’s what I meant when I said “ceiling for floor.”

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

TINSTAAPP is an acronym known to every baseball fan for a very good reason. The article admits that Arozarena has outperformed his scouting projections and had an absolutely spectacular 2019. If he continues to perform at something close to that level the Rays will enhance the window of opportunity they have now. The Rays know that their windows of contention are difficult to sustain and see a chance to go for it now. The Rays track record of stealing valuable players from unsuspecting front offices is quite impressive.

RonnieDobbs
6 years ago
Reply to  Rational Fan

I think many things are overvalued by fans.

Lanidrac
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrasius

If Martinez gets back to his 2017-18 performance with the bat, then he is at least close to an All-Star caliber hitter.

Sooted72
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrasius

yeah this definitely feels like one of those trades that we would hate if it wasnt for the fact that its the rays who made it. tbf theyve definitely earned the benefit of the doubt but it does seems like a bit of a headscratcher. but ofc liberatore will bust and arozarena will turn into prime grady sizemore and we’ll all be like ‘oh yeah thats right dont trade with the rays’.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Sooted72

I mean look at his number last year… How can be not be good? Can’t fake it for that long.

RonnieDobbs
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrasius

Yandy is a lot bigger, so that isn’t much of a comp. I don’t know why you would want more Yandy – it looks very replaceable to me. I am also not sure that he transformed into much, his wRC+ was almost identical year over year.

jts19Member since 2020
6 years ago

Rays clearly like guys who hit the ball very hard–can’t fault them for that. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them make a move to clear out some of the position player depth at the major-league level, maybe to get back some pieces that aren’t 40-man eligible for a while or another arm.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  jts19

They got rid of Cron prior, just outrighted him. I could see them doing that with a couple people on their roster they you don’t expect.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
6 years ago

Stockpiling cheap MLB-ready talent is never a bad thing for the Rays. So there’s a glut of 1B/OF/DH types … so what? Some of it will live in AAA. Some of it will step in to replace front line starters for injury or underperformance. Some of it will be trade bait later on. 40-man legerdemain is what the FO gets paid to do, and in Tampa they do it well.

A lot depends on what Liberatore turns into, of course. If it’s a front line SP then Tampa will be sad. If it’s a mid-rotation guy or worse, then they probably don’t care.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

“Stockpiling cheap MLB-ready talent is never a bad thing for the Rays.”

Seems like a decent “small-market strategy”. I see the Indians doing the same thing with their trades for guys like Luplow and Mercado. The guys they gave up may end up outperforming Luplow and Mercado but they’re also much further from the majors. So there’s more risk. And without a lot of other ways to acquire talent, why not get guys who can help you right now and let other teams take on the risk?

Travis LMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

It could be a bad thing; the evaluation depends on the specific terms. (Generalizations are usually bad!). And a lot of people believe that the Rays don’t have to be limited by the small budget their owner imposes. Baseball is flush with money.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

This is top-end analysis. This is a no-brainer for the Cardinals because they have no place to play all these guys; although they obviously lose the trade if Liberatore’s arm falls off, the effect of giving up those guys on their team is marginal.

And it’s a head-scratcher for the Rays because they have no place to play all these guys. Even if we assume Yandy Diaz will never play at 1B or DH and Brandon Lowe will never play the outfield and that Josh Lowe won’t force his way to the majors (some of which will probably happen), you can only play 5 of Meadows, Kiermaier, Renfroe, Arozarena, Choi, Nate Lowe, Tsutsugo, and Martinez at one time. Both of these teams needed to consolidate and only one did. I love what the Rays do with their player development and amateur acquisition but I find it maddening when they decide to make trades like this; they’re never going to consolidate, and it’s frustrating.

I think that the key to this from the Rays’ side (and the world where this looks bad for the Cards) is almost certainly Arozarena. This is sort of a dark way to look at it because it makes the Tommy Pham trade look worse, but there’s a decent chance that Arozarena is a superior option to Renfroe right now (and to a lesser extent, Dexter Fowler). They may have acquired him because the Rays have a weird thing about finding guys who can back up center field (see: Guillermo Heredia), but he has the chance to be much more than that.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“This is a no-brainer for the Cardinals because they have no place to play all these guys;”

Just imagine if they hadn’t traded Oscar Mercado to the Indians? Anyway, I don’t have kids but if I did, I’d want them to play baseball and be drafted by the Cardinals…

Shauntell47
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The offseason isn’t over and I think the Rays will look to move at least one or two of Kiermaier, Nate Lowe and Choi. If they think Arozarena can play a decent CF, then this would be the perfect time to deal Kiermaier, given that he just won another Gold Glove and the lack of decent CFs in FA. He doesn’t provide them with that much value for the dollar and he’s also quite reckless with the way he plays making him a risky investment.
The Rays identified Arozarena as a clear target. Due to their limited payroll, they have to continue to take calculated risks on the trade market to keep up with the big dogs and hope that they hit more than they miss.
I agree with you that they have perhaps too many OF options and definitely too many DH/1B options at this moment. But as stated they still have the time to sort things out. The question is whether they can get good value back in return. It might not be easy to convince teams to give up much for a DH/1B or even an injury-prone Gold Glover with a questionable bat. The Rays FO however has shown that it knows how to get creative trades done that benefit them.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauntell47

My first thought was “maybe they’ll move Kiermaier for prospects”, which would knock their payroll back down to $62M. Is this really something they could get away with without the MLBPA getting annoyed? I think it’s more likely they’ll put Arozarena in RF as a plus fielder there (at least, I hope so), at least once he proves he’s better than Renfroe (which will happen eventually).

The problem is that even if they do deal someone, which may or may not happen, they’re still not going to consolidate. They’re just going to keep splitting their wins into more players and relying on the player development side to bail them out. Which they have done in the past and probably will in the future, but I really don’t think it has to be this way.

Lanidrac
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think they merely see Arozarena as their 4th outfielder at this point. He’ll have to earn his way into supplanting one of the others into a starting role.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s frustrating from a fantasy perspective, but they basically don’t want to give up platoon advantage. I don’t think they are doing something “wrong.” I can see a player getting cut who we don’t expect at all (Ala Cron) and I am pretty sure Nate Lowe doesn’t start the season in the mlb unless they release Choi. Unsure of contract status, etc, but Choi isn’t really better than Cron was when he was released, so I can see it happening.

birkulator
6 years ago

I read this article the whole time knowing it was just a typical Craig Edwards Cardinal mille feuille and just because the author’s name is “Ben Clemens” will never convince me that there was yeast added.

In other words, don’t lie to me and call the thing on my plate a Clemens Croissant when it’s clearly just a patented Craig Edwards Cardinals Puff Piece

JimMember since 2016
6 years ago

Great lede, Ben. Got some laughs on that one.

josephd10
6 years ago

Revelation Cabrera. The book in the Bible is Revelation, not Revelations.

josephd10
6 years ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

Nope. Just a pet peeve of mine and a hill I am fully ready to die on.

Member since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

I wouls have gone with Super Nintendo Cabrera.

Slappytheclown
6 years ago

Arozarena is the key to this deal. He will push for a starting OF job next year and it will be Aroz, KK and Meadows, with Renfroe as the 4th OF/LHP killer. Aroz will handle CF on days Renfroe plays, and of course Renfroe will get a spot start here or their. Tsutsigo and Martinez will platoon at DH, and Tsutsigo I believe will get every chance to handle 3B as well to a) give Yandy a breather and b) be a fall back option in case Yandy goes out again. You can’t have Brosseau covering 3b…it was ugly offesively last year with Yandy and Lowe out at times, so Tsutsigo will get that opportunity. Nate Lowe and Choi will battle for 1b. You can say Aroz isn’t a starting OF, but the Rays must feel he is and he has some floor given his speed, OBP and defense and some potential upside with the bat (exit velocity) so…there you go, we shall see.

Jross
6 years ago

What’s the point in trading for undervalued assets if you are trading for them at full value.

ThrasiusMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Jross

I agree. That’s my first reaction. How’s this for a counter-intuitive? I want to see an article that studies the value of the risk premium. Here’s the hypothetical. If you have two 50 rated prospects, what’s the value of the risk premium if one of them is a single A pitcher and the other is a AAA pitcher ready for the majors? And then the article can look at comparisons between position players and pitchers plus even different positions. If that exists, awesome, point me towards it. If not, please.

Anyways, since this trade is really Liberatore for Arozarena, there is an obvious difference in risk between the two. Is there an actual value for that in the market? Or are the Rays acting somewhat irrationally with respect to the actual market?

Edit: To expand on this, with the risk premium in finance, a bond that is risky has a high interest rate but a low price and vice versa. For prospects in this analogy, the interest rate is equivalent to the talent ceiling and the price to the trade value. My point is that maybe there is an actual market value (a risk premium) for prospects with less risk but a still reasonable floor.

Rational FanMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrasius

This study has been done by BP and I believe FG and showed that A ball and lesser top prospects were by far the riskiest of the bunch. Theres another analysis that was done that shows that a 50FV SP is less valuable than a 50FV position player- I believe this was done by FG in 2018.

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrasius

I mean why would you not trade an A ball pitcher for an mlb ready average to above avg cf’er? I mean, it’s a pitcher….. In A ball. Guys massively overrate low level minor leaguers and teams who run low payrolls can’t afford to be wrong on a top prospect.

casey jMember since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  carter

Interesting. In my mind this makes this kind of a perfect trade. Theoretically, Tampa is giving up the “riskier” high-upside player, but the evidence doesn’t back this up. For the Cards, they are perceived to be getting the upside from the deal, but they may not be. Their depth makes them more willing to part with those pieces though. Its essentially a complex “challenge trade”. Cards betting on Libby, Rays on Arozy + sweeteners

Eucker's Tuba
6 years ago

Jose Martinez makes a ton of contact, hits it to all fields, and either keeps it on the ground or hits liners. I’m not sure how the playing time situation will shake out there, but he ought to hit like gangbusters on turf. Tampa is perfect for him.

emh1969
6 years ago
Reply to  Eucker's Tuba

At the minimum, he’s a lefty masher: .331/.405/.570 for his career. If the Rays utilize him properly, they can definitely get value out of him.

OkraMember since 2016
6 years ago

In an off season where Howie Kendrick gets 1yr/$6M and Eric Thams 1yr/$4M, Jose Martinez at $2M is not really a value at all. The wRC+ for these guys over the past 3yrs is 130, 118, & 121 respectively. And Jose Martinez had the worst year of the three last year. On top of this, the Rays didn’t really need another DH option.

So since Martinez provides little to no surplus value and the difference in draft picks is only +$4M for the Rays … why trade a consensus top 60, high ceiling prospect for a lightly regarded potential 4th OF? Obviously the Rays are really high on Arozarena, but if you have to give up a 50 FV prospect to get him then where is the value?

Lanidrac
6 years ago
Reply to  Okra

Martinez has yet to hit free agency, while the other guys have. You can’t directly compare their salaries.

Meanwhile, yes, Martinez had a down year, but if he can revert to his previous level, he’s a better hitter than Kendrick or Thames. Plus, he’s right-handed, which the Rays needed.

stevensl
6 years ago

As a Rays fan, I’m looking at how we are going to replace the WAR we lost this offseason from key pieces from last year:

Tommy Pham: 3.3 WAR
Avisail Garcia: 1.8 WAR
Travis d’Arnaud: 1.5 WAR

This offseason, we’ve acquired a number of players that are big league ready and have offensive upside that is relatively unknown:

Hunter Renfroe: 1.9 WAR in 2019; can he maintain or exceed this WAR? Can he be a 3 WAR player?
Yoshitomo Tsutsugo: has been comp’d with Eddie Rosario, averaged an exit velocity of 92 mph last year; has a ZIPS projection of 1.9 WAR for 2019; can he meet (or exceed) this projection?
Jose Martinez: had a 160 wrC+ against lefties in 2019; can Martinez produce a 1.5 – 2 WAR season on offense alone?
Randy Arozarena: (151 wRC+ in AAA last year; 138 wRC+ in 23 MLB PA last year); could he play 100 games in 2020 and produce a 2+ WAR season?
Brian O’Grady: had a 128 wRC+ at AAA in 2019, hitting 28 HRs with 78 RBIs; can his bat translate to the big leagues? What is his ceiling in the big league?

If at least one of these players can put up a 3 WAR season, and two others can put up a 2 WAR season, I will be satisfied with the trades. I’m not as concerned with having too few positions for too many players; as Rays fans know last year, injuries can pile up and guys further down the depth chart end up playing pivotal roles down the stretch.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  stevensl

You say you’re not concerned about too many positions about too few positions for too many players, but to answer these questions about WAR (a cumulative stat) you have to have a sense of how much each of those guys are playing.

There were 1200 PAs between Garcia and Pham (none of these guys are playing catcher, so you’re just going to have to hope Zunino is better there), and 5.1 wins.

So if, say, Renfroe is a 1 win player over 600 PAs and Tsutsugo is a 3-win player over 600 PAs, the Rays’ ability to get to 5.1 wins over those 1200 PAs is going to require a lot more Tsutsugo than Renfroe making that up.

Hypothetically, if all of those guys just do what they’re projected for and they each get 300 PAs each (so you’re not taking away PAs from Kiermaier and Choi and Meadows, nor are they gaining any), you’re looking at the following:
Tsutsugo=1.9*300/498=1.14
Renfroe=1.1*300/574=0.57
Martinez=0.6*300/343=0.52
Arozarena= 0.5*300/182=0.82

Based on this, you’ve got about 3 wins instead of 5.1. We’re about 0.5 wins per 300 PAs shy for each of our three guys (which, again, over 600 PAs, is about 1 win per guy). You have to project some improvement to get there, because even if you gave Tsutsugo all 1200 PAs (which obviously cannot happen) you’re at 4.6 wins, 0.5 shy from last year.

Of those guys, I think Arozarena and Tsutsugo have a decent shot of adding another 0.5 wins per 300 PAs. If, in theory, you then played them each 600 PAs, then you’d get to 4.9 wins, but that would mean you would lose out on some favorable platoon matchups with Martinez and Renfroe relative to Tsutsugo. So if you got Martinez 150 PAs where all he had to do was crush left-handed pitching (which would presumably be more valuable than Tsutsugo’s base rate) and the two best of them outperform their projections substantially, yes, you could get there.

stevensl
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Really good points. I get that there are only so many at bats. I wonder if, though, the Rays can maximize these at bats like they have maximized their pitchers’ potential in the past. The WAR projections for these players, which you’ve helpfully listed, would definitely suggest that these players won’t replace the offense of Pham, Garcia, and d’Arnaud.

At the same time, Garcia, Diaz, and d’Arnaud outplayed their projections last year when the Rays took a chance on them. I guess I’m just hoping, as a Rays fan, that a few of these new players outplay their projections too! 🙂

hothands
6 years ago

I see this trade as the Rays replacing Garcia’s defense with Renfroe’s 90th percentile outs-above average metric, and then using the 26th roster spot as a platoon DH spot instead of adding to the bullpen. Martinez is better than Pham against lefties (albeit only marginally), whereas Arozarena seems to be better than Pham against righties. I’m not sure how Tsutsugo adds into the equation, but it seems like the Rays are building what amounts to an “outfield/dh bullpen”. I’m sure they project the league to use the opener even more next season, and I feel like this is how they are planning to combat the weapon they have created. Especially because most teams will use the extra roster spot to add a bullpen piece.

Boo Cocky
6 years ago
Reply to  hothands

Using one season of defensive data is too small of a sample size. From 2017-2019 Renfroe was worth 0 OAA, and that’s after +6 in 2019. Regression should be expected. And when you consider basically all of Renfroe’s WAR value in 2019 came from defense that’s a scary thought for his WAR in 2020 if the offense doesnt improve.

hothands
6 years ago
Reply to  Boo Cocky

That’s fair, especially considering his sprint speed and jump haven’t changed much over those years.

Lanidrac
6 years ago

How is Fowler a part-timer? He was an average player last year and is the only close to a sure thing the Cardinals have in the outfield right now. If anything, Bader is the part-timer (or even a bench player) if his bat doesn’t improve.

Number20
6 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I think he means that Steamer projects Fowler to be worth 0.9 fWAR, which is typical for a role-player. Whether or not that is how the team plays him, there are probably 3-4 outfielders that would perform better if given 600 PA.

Lanidrac
6 years ago
Reply to  Number20

Steamer is putting too much weight on his terrible 2018 season. He’s much more likely to perform like he did last year. The other guys are much bigger question marks than he is.

dirtbag
6 years ago

Wasn’t Arozarena the guy who recorded Shildt’s expletive laden speech in the locker room and posted it to his Instagram?

carterMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  dirtbag

Ya, I mean I doubt he meant anything bad by it, but I could see that pissing off some people in the front office/ the coach.

tdouglas
6 years ago

I like the trade for STL, but without Martinez, they could have a really, really bad offense. They were mediocre last year, and they just lost two of their top hitters in Ozuna and Martinez. Molina’s offense is gone, Goldschmidt is another year in decline, Carpenter fell hard and fast, and two of 2019’s best contributors, Wong and Edman, vastly outperformed their xWOBA’s.

In terms of wRC+, they could be looking at one player in the 100-110 range (Goldy), one near 100 (DeJong), and the rest below-average. Even if you’re high on Carlson, can you really expect more than average offense in his first year? At his age?

There’s some quality defense there, but good pitching in the playoffs (if they even get there) will tear this lineup apart.

Lanidrac
6 years ago
Reply to  tdouglas

That’s why they’re expected to grab an established outfielder (possibly resigning Ozuna) before the offseason is over. Besides, Martinez was never going to be a starter anyway given his terrible defense.

The offense as it is is better than you think, anyway. DeJong is better than average, Wong’s offense varies but is at least close to average, Fowler is about average, Carpenter will likely at least partially bounce back like Fowler did last year, and Molina still has a decent bat.

tdouglas
6 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I think we’re both right, except you’re taking the optimistic side and I’m a bit more pessimistic. But for argument’s sake, DeJong has been exactly average since 2018, so we probably shouldn’t expect more. So many red flags popped up in Carpenter’s numbers last year that I don’t see him rebounding (and Edman will be stealing vital at-bats from him at third). Molina just had his worst offensive year since 2015 and is a 37 year-old catcher.

I guess the question is: are you fine with an offense with one above-average hitter? And if that hitter is in decline, how confident can you be in his offense? Another offensive acquisition would alleviate some concerns, but there aren’t any obvious fits. I love Ozuna, but the team doesn’t seem to, and Arenado is probably a pipe dream. The team is in a tough position in terms of payroll and bad players locked into expensive contracts, but it’s still worth pointing out that the offense could struggle.

That said, I do still like this trade for STL. I just saw they got rid of one of their few above-average bats and connected some dots.

runningfrog
6 years ago

Since the start of 2017, Martinez has a wRC+ of 158 against LHP. That’s good for 13th in baseball (minimum 250 PAs). Given the Rays propensity for leveraging inefficiencies, this seems like a pretty straightforward move on their part. Grab an asset that isn’t being maximized by his current team and use him in a way that will.

RonnieDobbs
6 years ago

How is Martinez a Statcast darling? His offensive skillset would be appreciated in any era and you don’t need Amazon Web Services to appreciate it. He hits for average, hits lots of line drives and doesn’t K a lot. Its highly visible in real looks. That seems like a really easily observable skill set by any metric. What metric or set of optics could miss that? Arozarena has all the looks of a 4th outfielder – I think we overvalue slightly above average play and unfairly penalize very similar players that are slightly negative and it is probably just bad metrics most of the time. I like Arozarena a fair amount but I imagine he is probably just a role player. I imagine there is more to this deal that what we see on the surface. At some point I think players might want out of TB. They want to platoon everyone and turn everyone into an RP – maybe that played some role.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
6 years ago

Trying to make sense of this from the Rays’ perspective, maybe they’re bringing in platoon bats to counter the 3 batter minimum for relievers? Plus the 26 man roster allows them to do it. They could theoretically maximize the leverage of their PH that way. I’ve no idea how much impact this has but maybe they’re thinking high leverage PH can make the bottom of the roster more valuable?