Rays Replace Steven Souza With Older Steven Souza

It’s not that I advise always taking teams at their word. Teams have an interest in pushing obvious agendas, and much of what they put out there is essentially some kind of propaganda. Teams always have to be selling themselves, which means emphasizing optimism while downplaying any negatives. But I trust the Rays on what they say they’re doing. Over the weekend, the Rays added C.J. Cron while losing Corey Dickerson and Jake Odorizzi. They said they slashed payroll without getting meaningfully worse, and I agreed. That post was promptly followed by news of the Rays trading Steven Souza Jr. for prospects, but the Rays said that was a baseball trade, not a money move, and that it would be the end of the selling. I believed the Rays; it just didn’t feel like an actual tank-job. There was also the room to make an addition.

An addition has already been made. The Rays have plugged the Souza void by signing Carlos Gomez for a year and $4 million. Gomez is signing from out of the bargain bin, so this isn’t a franchise-altering transaction. And there’s always the chance that, tomorrow or next week, Kevin Kiermaier or Chris Archer is swapped for younger players. The Rays still could tank, if they wanted to. But Gomez will actually earn more in 2018 than Souza will. And I think this is just more evidence of how the Rays are forever attempting to thread the needle. What is Carlos Gomez, as a ballplayer? He’s just an older and more fragile Steven Souza. It’s not the worst exchange, given the four new prospects from the trade.

Someone actually mentioned Gomez in my chat earlier. That was before the signing news got out. Reader Jack asked if the Rays might be interested in Gomez or Jose Bautista, and I figured that Gomez would make sense as a Souza-style player, if he were affordable. It was going to be up to Scott Boras, but, here we are, and by a stroke of good luck this post was effectively given a head start. It’s not that Gomez and Souza are the same. It’s that they’ve looked really, really similar.

The major difference is that Souza is 28, and he turns 29 in April. Gomez turned 32 in December. Keep that in mind as you look at the following. Here’s how the two players have done over the past three seasons.

A Comparison
Player Time PA BB/HBP% K% wRC+ BsR Def WAR WAR/600
Steven Souza 2015 – 2017 1511 12% 32% 107 10 -10 6.5 2.6
Carlos Gomez 2015 – 2017 1356 9% 27% 97 8 9 5.8 2.6

Souza has been the better hitter, but Gomez has been the better defender, thanks to his playing a premium position. Souza has gotten into more games, but looking at WAR on a rate basis, the two are virtually identical. Now! Souza just broke out, in a way, this past season. So how about looking at the same table, but for 2017 only?

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A Comparison
Player Time PA BB/HBP% K% wRC+ BsR Def WAR WAR/600
Steven Souza 2017 617 14% 29% 120 3 -3 3.7 3.6
Carlos Gomez 2017 426 12% 30% 110 2 1 2.3 3.2

Souza, again, was the better hitter, but Gomez, again, was the better defender, thanks to his playing a premium position. Souza got into more games, so he was the more valuable of the two, but looking at WAR on a rate basis, Souza’s advantage narrows. These are two high-strikeout power hitters. Not Giancarlo Stanton-level power hitters, but their offense is driven by dingers. The skillsets look a lot alike.

We can also examine Statcast information from Baseball Savant. Again, we can focus just on 2017. By average exit velocity, Souza was better than Gomez, but by just 0.4 miles per hour. By rate of batted balls hit at least 100 miles per hour, Souza was better than Gomez, but by just two percentage points. By rate of barrels or solid contact — two Statcast batted-ball categories — Gomez was better than Souza, but by just one percentage point. And looking at sprint speed, Souza was faster than Gomez, but by just 0.2 feet per second. If you like the Souza skillset, the trade made the Rays meaningfully worse. But Gomez also has the Souza skillset. You could argue he had it first. He’s no less dynamic an outfielder.

This much is important: no major-league executive would rather have Carlos Gomez than Steven Souza. It matters that Gomez is more than three years Souza’s senior, and Gomez hasn’t been very durable. This past season alone, Gomez went on the DL with a hamstring strain, and he went on the DL with a shoulder cyst. He later missed time with an ankle sprain. Souza played in 148 games. But Souza did have significant hip surgery later in 2016. And this isn’t just about Gomez vs. Souza. It’s more than just a one-for-one.

Out in right field, the Rays have accepted some manner of downgrade. The potential is there that the downgrade won’t be major. Gomez could easily perform like Souza-lite. The Rays also now have Anthony Banda. He could make a difference as soon as this coming year. The Rays also now have Nick Solak. He could make a difference as soon as this coming year. There are two other players to be named later. Maybe they’ll be nothing, but Solak and Banda are legitimate prospects. So, if you’re the Rays, would you rather have Souza, or would you rather have Gomez, Banda, and Solak? The Rays would tell you that the prospects are easily worth the immediate downgrade. Just as was the case over the weekend, the roster hasn’t gotten significantly worse. The Rays remain a fringe wild-card contender, even this season. The American League has no fifth super-team.

Perception is that the Rays are just tanking. It’s not a good look when any team slashes payroll. The Rays didn’t have to trade Souza, and if they fancy themselves potential contenders, you’d think they’d want to add, instead of just trying to not get much worse. It would all be so much easier if ownership would make a greater investment in the on-field product. That’s been a handicap forever, and every day, there are more and more calls for ownership to sell. But it should be obvious that the constraints are the constraints. They just won’t act like a big-budget team. So the front office is left having to keep the long-term forever in mind, without allowing the short-term ballclub to crater. It’s the roster-management equivalent of a knife-edge ridgetop, but you can see the light, down the tunnel. The Rays aren’t tanking, because the Rays don’t have to tank. They’re okay right now, and reinforcements are coming.

Whenever the projected standings update, the Rays will project to be somewhere in the vicinity of .500. Close enough to have a realistic shot, but distant enough to not be considered among the true contenders. This is what teams like the Rays and Pirates have frequently aimed for. But the Rays also recently ranked fifth in Baseball America’s organizational rankings. And, reflecting on recent work by Eric Longenhagen and Kiley McDaniel, the Rays have five of baseball’s top 50 prospects. Some of them are poised to graduate very soon. The Rays, in one way, are in a transition phase, but the team right now is far from hopeless. It only feels hopeless, because so many familiar faces have left. But that’s just how the Rays operate.

When you think about it deeply, you wonder if this is really how the Rays should operate. I don’t have access to their internal books, but you have to think ownership could invest more without going broke. Ownership has given the front office a tremendously difficult task, and that’s been the assignment all along. It’s hardly fan-friendly, with success difficult to sustain, and players constantly being exchanged for others. Right now, much of the remaining fan base is pissed off, because several significant players have left. But the front office simply can’t worry about that. It has to try its best to keep a small-budget operation competitive. I think everything that’s happened lately has been with that mission firmly in mind.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

38 Comments
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pilldomMember since 2024
8 years ago

If I had to read one more post Reddit about how the Ray’s were tanking I think I was going to go crazy. Thank you for being a voice of reason. Playing to win 80 games isn’t tanking.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

This particular bet (trade Souza, sign Gomez) probably pays off from a baseball perspective if they can keep signing Carlos Gomez players on the cheap for the next three years to play right field, which means they get Banda and Solak and the PTBNLs. Well, if Gomez-player they sign also gives them 2 WAR, which they often won’t (heck, this one might not even pay off).

That said, keep in mind that Gomez is going to be playing right field and not center field. Many players compensate for moving down the defensive spectrum with better fielding (some, in the case of Adam Eaton, with dramatically better fielding). Whether Gomez will be one of them is a gamble.

I think I find this turn of events much less weird than the Cron trade/Dickerson DFA. It’s a gamble for sure, since Gomez is on the downside of his career and Souza is in his prime, and if you are actually trying to go for it you would much rather have Souza. But you can see the Rays potentially breaking even this year, maybe even next year.

It seems like the Rays’ philosophy right now is to try and stack the team with as many two-win position players as possible, all of whom give their value from defense rather than with the bat. It kind of feels like they’re competing on The Price is Right, where the goal is to get as close as possible to the price (.500, in this case) without going over. Maybe they see their contention window starting in 2020 or so when their prospects have made it up, but it’s not easy to see what the game plan is and I imagine that’s frustrating to a lot of fans.

Shauntell47
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think the gameplan is pretty obvious since it’s what they’ve been doing since around 2008:
Always planning for the future while keeping a competitive team on the field. You hope you get a certain amount of luck one year and sneak into the playoffs. Unfortunately luck is apparently not a fan of th Rays if one believes in Baseruns.

TheNEW_guy
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Bauers and/or Williams will likely play RF next year. Position players could look like Bauers, Cron, Miller, Solak, Adames, Duffy, Arroyo, Smith, Kiermaier, Williams. Rotation of Archer, Snell, Faria, Honeywell, De Leon, Chirinos, Banda, Yarbrough etc. Won’t need to keep dipping into FA soon and I think that is the plan. Not sure who will be catching in 2019 but that could be determined with a future trade later this season

LooseSealMember since 2020
8 years ago

Odorizzi becomes Banda
Dickerson becomes Cron
Souza becomes Gomez

And they walk away with 4-5 extra years of their starting pitcher, 1 extra year of their defensively-challenged slugger, and lose 2 (inexpernsive, but not league-minimum) years of their 2-3 WAR outfielder. And they get a couple decent middle infield prospects.

It’s not that it doesn’t make sense on some level, and it’s not that it doesn’t make complete sense given the Rays’ payroll limitations. It just seems unfair.

Domingo AyalaMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  LooseSeal

What about it seems unfair?

LooseSealMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Domingo Ayala

If the Rays have a 35 WAR Roster and $80 million in payroll commitments, they sell off some good, reliable assets for less-good, less-reliable assets that are cheaper and have more team control. If the Yankees or Red Sox have a 35 WAR Roster and $80 million in payroll commitments, they’ll buy up 3 big-name free agents and significantly boost their playoff chances.

Not saying that things like competitive balance picks, the arbitration system, revenue sharing, luxury taxes, and other parts of the system don’t help the Rays compete. It just seems like their payroll is so low, and the competition in the AL East is so high, that they have a much bigger challenge than any other small-market team in baseball.

Anonymous
8 years ago
Reply to  LooseSeal

More money, less problems.

Domingo AyalaMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  LooseSeal

The Rays chose that location, and MLB allows them to move. They just need to find a new location and funding (which they’re in the process of doing). I don’t think the higher revenue teams should be punished for their location choice.

fjtorres
8 years ago

Buying prospects the Tampa way.

Edward Killmer
8 years ago

I am not sure all the math works here(I live in Tampa),
Add Gomez for one year of control and still doesn’t add up:
So the Rays turned James Shields into Wil Myers, Myers into Trea Turner and Joe Ross, Turner and Ross into Souza, and Souza into Nick Solak and Anthony Banda.

mike sixelMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Edward Killmer

They don’t have those earlier players……they were already gone. Sunk cost. What’s better, Souza, or Gomez, four prospects, and a few million LESS dollars? I mean, they just used FA to buy prospects. More teams should do this.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  mike sixel

The reason why more teams don’t do it is because FA is not good value. If you’re rebuilding and are willing to just see what is left over like Tampa, then it works. If you’re trying to contend right now, it doesn’t work so well.

Free Clay Zavada
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think that’s why it made sense that these moves happened this late in the offeason – Gomez IS good value. Likely to provide over a win in value and isn’t being paid like he will. And there’s always the upside that he repeats last season.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

And yet, they got worse despite the good value.

This is why teams that are trying to compete right now don’t do this.

Stevil
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I would argue that the Diamondbacks just got good value in Dyson via free agency and they’re likely going to be contending.

They were filling a hole left by JDM, which he filled (late in the season) after they traded Haniger.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Stevil

And yet, that is also a situation where they were getting worse in the outfield…Haniger would definitely be better than Dyson. They only did that because they wanted Taijuan Walker, to improve the rotation.

This whole thing that we are celebrating is a really clever way for teams to rebuild without tanking, and I like that. But let’s not pretend that this is how a club should operate if they’re trying to win a championship in the next year or two. The Rays likely just downgraded right field for the next three seasons. There is a really good reason why the Cubs didn’t trade Anthony Rizzo to restock their farm system and then sign Carlos Santana. This is a move you make when you aren’t planning on going for it anytime soon.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

This is the right way to view this. The Rays see clearly that the Red Sox and Yankees are very strong and the best they can hope for in 2018 is a longshot chance at the second wild card, all the while having to face the aforementioned teams 38 times. 2020 might look a little better and adding four prospects who might be able to add more in 2020 makes all sorts of sense.

fjtorres
8 years ago
Reply to  Edward Killmer

Since the Shields trade, Myers and Souza have given the Rays 8.7WAR while Shields has given the Padres and ChiSox 6.9 WAR.

Churn may be disquieting to the fans but it has been effective enough. And, no small thing given Tampa’s budget issues: cheap. Which keeping Shields would not have been.

RK
8 years ago
Reply to  Edward Killmer

I’ve seen this chain of transactions listed like this before and i never understand why the shields-myers trade is worded that way – wade davis and jake odorizzi were also in the trade, and were significant components…

Free Clay Zavada
8 years ago

The explanation here makes a lot of sense, but no matter which way you cut it, DFA’ing Dickerson still seems like a senseless move to me.

cnote66Member since 2017
8 years ago

I agree — and with the signing of Gomez, what did they really save? $1M? Has to be more to the Dickerson DFA then speeding up trade talk.

fjtorres
8 years ago

Well, they got Daniel Hudson, a minor leaguer, and cash for him.

MLBtoPDX#2024
8 years ago

Interesting, although if you would imply this with JD Martinez and Steven Souza Jr than it would be very similar. JD has had a stronger avg. but Steven has had quicker wheels. JD has a stronger Exit Velo but Souza has had stronger exit velo on a 3 year avg than JD has. Souza also had more HR his previous rookie and minor years than JD did. Souza is going to have a breakout year this year with the DBacks. A 40/15 with 250 avg can and will be quite plausible for him, which means for the Price it’s an absolute steal.

Anonymous
8 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

I disagree with you. He is projected for 19 HR, 8 SB and a .245 AVG per Steamer. Calling 40 HR ‘plausible’ stretches past the breaking point.

MLBtoPDX#2024
8 years ago
Reply to  Anonymous

You talking about a Steamer which was done when he was with Tampa? Also, when’s the last time Steamer has projected anything right. I like to look at past seasons and stats as they relate a lot to the players today. As for JD, his first 900+MLB AB’s (spanned almost 4 years) he only hit a total of 25 HRs! In 4 seasons. Look at Souza and in his first 800 AB’s he hit 35. Souza has had 36 Steals in 3 and a Half MLB seasons and JD has had a total of maybe 13 his entire MLB career. Before Chase field JD’s SLG% was in the decline, as Souza’s been on the Incline. If you factor that Souza is going to Chase (albeit the Humidor) and JD is going to the Green Monster, than I would expect regression on JDs part and progression on Souza’s. For the price they get Souza, and the controlable years, it’s a steal for the DBacks. The Red Sox are paying 23mil a year for essentially the same player but Older

MLBtoPDX#2024
8 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

All the people with Thumbs down on my comment, you’re like the Astros when they straight dropped Martinez to waivers. I bet the Astros were reading Steamers in JD than, and look what happened. It’s not hard to see breakouts, and when a player of younger age with similar caliber tools gets sent to a hitters haven.. (Humidor Scmumador) just like JD did, than it’s very plausible to expect increased stats not decreased. Souza is also going to a strong offensive Team than Tampa, a team that will be running a lot more this season as well. I know, it’s hard to except such a loss for Tampa by seeing the next JD got to DBacks, and hard for BoSox fans to realize they got ripped off for an older version of Souza, but they did. No good will come to JD going to Fenway besides lower Slugging and OBP. Just remember when Souza is out slugging and out running JD this year, that I was the one to warn ya

rhswanzey
8 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

JD followed an atypical growth curve that was made possible by a well documented swing change – an early adopter of the trend of optimizing launch angle. Since this happened, he has been an elite level bat. Souza is a good hitter with better secondary skills than JD, who is just a pure power bat with little else, but nothing in his track record suggests a hit or power tool that is elite like the power tool of post-swing change JD. This seems like a very lazy comparison of two players… this corner outfielder exploded into an elite bat all of a sudden, therefore Souza will too? Hmm…

MLBtoPDX#2024
8 years ago
Reply to  rhswanzey

Lots of players benefited from changing swing to better launch angle and developed at an atypical age which haven’t broke out until last year or an older age. Granted, they don’t have the power as JD but still saying that the odds are probably less that someone wouldn’t repeat what JD did is ignorant, as the odds that someone Will are most likely higher. Martinez only had 19 HR in Detroit (almost as many AB’s as Chase) and than Chase he had 29. Remember how hitter friendly Chase is. Also while in Detroit his SLG% was in the Decline as it was last year as well. As for the players that benifted (or as you say have an Atypical developlenty at older age) from change of Launch angle here’s a couple.. José Martinez from the Cardinals, Jean Segauru from Mariners, Eric Thames Brewers, Yonder Alonso now with the Tribe. Avisail Garcia White Sox. Freddie Freeman with the Braves..(Also, new hitters park) Ozuna also had a changed Swing as well, and David Peralta for the DBacks was a late bloomer too. Yes, I know some don’t have the Power but still they had breakout seasons later than expected. Plus, again, Chase was a hitters paradise last season, that coupled with the “juiced” ball, it definitely benefited J.D. after the trade more than a lot of the players the entire season. Considering the contract and Souza’s overall stronger all around tool set, at his age, than yes I think his stats will be a lot stronger next season. 35-40 HR with 15B.. 240-255 avg.

Also, those Steamers and Zips weren’t made when Souza was with DBacks so therefore aren’t current. You have to add in the elements of a Hitters Park and a Potent Offense

MLBtoPDX#2024
8 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

I forgot about Travis Shaw and his breakout due to Confines of Ballpark and slight Swing Change

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

I think it’s reasonable to question Steamer, since it is very conservative about judging breakouts/sudden declines. I also agree with you that Souza has a decent chance of even outperforming ZiPS, which is more optimistic on him. But I think you’d want t couch that in Souza’s pitch selection, not “when did Steamer ever predict anything right?” because a lot of baseball performance can be described by regression to the mean that’s really what Steamer does.

Stevil
8 years ago

If the Rays aren’t looking to trade Colome, does that make the Cardinals the most obvious fit for Holland?

The Rays have interesting prospects all across the infield for the near future and plenty of starting pitching to boot. Maybe an arm for an outfielder or two would make sense before too long.

TheNEW_guy
8 years ago
Reply to  Stevil

Have Bauers, Williams, Sanchez as good OF prospects coming with Bauers and Williams having potential ETAs of this season. Catching is where they lack a real quality option for 2019

Infield Single
8 years ago

The Rays did have a competitive pitching staff with Price, Shields, Moore, Archer and Jeremy Hellickson.

Weirdly, they aren’t completely out of the picture in order to develop their next great pitching staff with Snell, Honeywell, Faria and often-injured Jose De Léon.

Even if Odorizzi was an elite level prospect once, and could serve as an affordable mid-rotation pitcher for several seasons, his career trajectory was a bit meh, and from the Rays perspective, they could reasonably reason that in order to get better in the future, time was right (AL East being too good to overcome) to make a deal and give time for prospects to develop.

In other respects, tanking or moneyballin’ or what ever, from organizational viewpoint, they must fix the ballpark issue. So by acquiring and swapping bargain bin hitters, it’s more a matter of striking rich in lottery than anything.

fjtorres
8 years ago
Reply to  Infield Single

There is no question that their churn strategy is suboptimal in traditional Baseball terms.

But it’s not as if they have much choice, given their market limitation and it does keep them competitive while they work the ballpark issue.

As bad as the player churn is, imagine what attendance would be like if they followed the typical rebuild cycle at the same time they work the ballpark financing. Not Pretty.

padraic
8 years ago

I think there is an issue with the headline:

“Rays Replace Steven Souza With Older Steven Souza”

added to

” no major-league executive would rather have Carlos Gomez than Steven Souza.”

equals

“Rays Replace Steven Souza With guy who no major-league executive would rather have than Steven Souza.”

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  padraic

What’s the issue?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

I think it is possible to read the article and think Jeff is arguing that “the Rays just got free prospects without downgrading the current team,” which is not true. If you read the article, I think it’s more obvious that the Rays are downgrading the current team, but the headline doesn’t really show that and it is played down a bit in the article.

I don’t know how this is that much different than the Marlins trading away Yelich and signing Cameron Maybin, except (obviously) in degree.

bampton
8 years ago
Reply to  padraic

To be fair, no major league executive would rather have older Steven Souza than Steven Souza.

david k
8 years ago

Question: how much does Kiermaier in CF affect Souza’s defensive metrics? I mean, if Kiermaier can go get practically anything, I am guessing Souza yielded to Kiermaier on more occasions than he would have with just about anyone else in CF. That would make his range look worse, no?