Royals Add Johnny Cueto, Relief for Relievers
Here’s all the proof you need that the Royals didn’t need Johnny Cueto: up until this point, the Royals didn’t have Johnny Cueto. The Royals didn’t really have much of anyone in the rotation, and yet they have the best record in the American League, by a surprisingly comfortable margin. If Cueto were necessary, maybe the Royals would’ve had more problems. Just last year, the Royals came a swing away from winning the World Series, and though they got there in part by leaning on supposed ace James Shields, Shields allowed 17 runs in 25 postseason innings. The Royals haven’t done what they’ve done because of an ace. Moving forward, they’ll be more than their ace.
That’s looking at it from just one perspective, though. You have to consider the other perspective, the one where the Royals’ most valuable starting pitcher so far has been literally Edinson Volquez. Not long ago, Yordano Ventura was officially optioned to Triple-A. Jason Vargas sustained a bad elbow injury, and the state of the Royals’ rotation has been such that that was major news. And, well, just last year, the Royals came a swing away from winning the World Series. James Shields finished 0-and-2. What difference might a real ace have made? An ace like Madison Bumgarner, or Johnny Cueto?
Of course there’s no such thing as a guaranteed championship. Of course most moves are just about moving the needle the smallest little bit. Yet, when you’re talking about adding one single player, it doesn’t get much more significant than going from whatever the other option would’ve been to Cueto. This is a big upgrade, and though the Royals had to pay for it, they feel like they know what they’re paying for. And they feel like they know what this season could be.
The whole trade is as follows —
Royals get:
- Johnny Cueto
- cash
Reds get:
As you understand, Cueto’s a rental. There’s no compensation pick coming, and he almost definitely isn’t re-signing in Kansas City. So for the Royals, this is all about 2015, and they’re giving up a considerable amount of big-league cost control. You remember Finnegan from his role in the Royals bullpen down the stretch a summer ago. Maybe you think the return package is light. Maybe you think the Reds should’ve gotten more than three young southpaws. Really, it seems mutually beneficial, if a little unsexy on the Cincinnati end.
The Kansas City end is really quite simple. As far as Cueto was concerned, the Royals were probably the best fit. The fit was clear and easy. Here, you had a good team with a bad rotation. There, you had a bad team with a good and available starter. It’s true that no team in recent history has won the World Series after swinging a midseason deal for a front-line starter, but that doesn’t make it a rule. The Royals just improved their championship odds. They improved their odds of just getting to the championship. They improved their odds of everything good.
The Royals are several games clear of the Twins and the Tigers in the Central. The division isn’t locked up, but it’s getting there, meaning Cueto would be available for series, and not just for a one-game playoff. When last year’s A’s picked up Jon Lester at the deadline, they were just 2.5 games clear of the Angels, and of course they shortly lost that lead. And then Lester couldn’t win the one-game playoff, and that’s evidence of what can happen with these moves and these guys, but Cueto should be good for more than one postseason start. When he pitches, it should give Ned Yost an opportunity to breathe, to not already be thinking about the bullpen from the first pitch of the game.
Because, obviously, the bullpen is a strength. Maybe the strength. And the depth and ability of the bullpen could’ve been used as an excuse for not adding a starter. After all, you could just make every important game a bullpen game. But what that reasoning leaves out is the significance of rest. Not just during the year, but also in the playoffs. The Royals couldn’t be quick to the bullpen in every game. That would increase the odds of the relievers wearing down. And then with worn-down relievers, the Royals would have nothing fresh. The idea here is that Cueto makes the Royals better in the games he pitches, and then indirectly, he could also make the Royals better in the games he doesn’t pitch. It’s not a massive effect, it’s not a landscape-altering transaction, but if you can trust Cueto for an extra turn through the order, then you can save some of the reliever bullets. The Royals might need every last one of them.
If things go according to plan, maybe the Royals can start giving relievers more rest during the final few months. Cueto would help that, too. If things don’t go that way, and the Royals slip back toward the pack, well, again, Cueto helps. Cueto helps everything. He increases the odds of good things, and he decreases the odds of bad things. He makes it more likely the universe spins the wheel and Royals fans come away smiling.
What happens next year? The Royals don’t know about next year. Lamb could’ve been in the rotation. Finnegan could’ve been in the rotation. That depth has been depleted. With a playoff run, the Royals will have extra revenue to spend. This year, that revenue went toward Volquez, Kendrys Morales, and Alex Rios. Which is underwhelming, until you remember the Royals have the AL’s best record anyway, even having lost Shields. What they appear to be saying with this is that they believe in themselves to develop young pitchers. And they believe 2015 is worth trying for, and trying for hard. You can never count on the next opportunity. The next version of the Royals might be down Alex Gordon and one of the bullpen elites.
For the Reds, I don’t know quite what was expected. People say they need bats, and this trade didn’t bring any bats. Nor did it bring a blue-chip, can’t-miss prospect, which it seems like you’d expect when you’re dealing a No. 1. The centerpiece is Brandon Finnegan, even according to the Reds themselves, and as I write this, it’s not clear if Finnegan even has a future as a starter. If you just focus on Finnegan, and his mildly disappointing 2015, this return could seem weak, but there’s a lot more to it.
Before the year, Kiley ranked Finnegan in the middle of the top 100. That made him a good prospect, and he made an impressive early impression a year ago in the bigs, but this is a potential starting pitcher, and this year he hasn’t thrown more than 62 pitches in a game at any level. That’s not good for a starter’s development, and Finnegan has thrown fewer strikes than before, maybe as a consequence of having been moved around a bunch. Yet he’s still a lefty with a good fastball and a slider, and he’s 22, and he’s seen the major leagues. The Reds are going to stretch him out in Triple-A, and Finnegan isn’t the first guy the Reds will try starting, even though many see him more as a reliever. There’s real potential here. And there’s a pitcher who could help in 2016, softening the blow of a big-league-roster teardown.
Had this trade been made months ago, Lamb and Reed would’ve seemed like throw-ins. Yet they add a lot of interest to the return package, because 2015 has been kind to them both. Take Lamb, a former top prospect himself who’s gone through some injury stuff and under-performance. He wasn’t real good last year in Triple-A, but this year the 25-year-old has taken a step forward, and he might be just about ready for the major leagues. His K-BB% last season was below league average. This year he’s in the top 5% of the PCL. With strikeouts up and walks down, Lamb doesn’t need to do much more, and as a lefty with an 89-93 fastball but a legitimate changeup, he’s close. He could be a long-term, second-tier asset.
And here’s Kiley, on Reed:
Much like Nottingham in the Kazmir trade, new Reds LHP Cody Reed is significantly better than preseason reports: velo/slider/cmd all better.
— Kiley McDaniel (@kileymcd) July 26, 2015
This season has seen Reed face higher levels of competition than last season. Yet, as a starter, he’s trimmed his walks by 30%, and he’s increased his strikeouts by 40%. He’s made it up to Double-A, and while he’s further off than Finnegan and Lamb, Reed could have his own real future, and Kiley talked to a scout who’d rank Reed as a No. 101 – 150 prospect overall. That’s a good player to add to an organization, especially when that player is trending up.
The Kazmir trade looked light at first, because we’re all biased by what we thought about guys before the year. It’s similar here. Before the year, Finnegan looked talented, but it wasn’t clear if he was a starter, and Lamb and Reed were mostly nothing. Now, there are still questions about Finnegan, but Lamb’s got a real shot and Reed’s got a real shot, so this trade goes deeper than one guy with question marks. It makes the Royals feel good, because if they can help Lamb and Reed, maybe they can help other guys in the organization to replace them. And it makes the Reds feel good, because while it always sucks to lose a Johnny Cueto, there are three pitchers coming back, two who could help soon, and another whose stock is rising. The Reds are unlikely to be good again for a bit, but they should be able to avoid the deepest depths of rebuilding misery.
Scott Kazmir to the Astros? Johnny Cueto to the Royals? Maybe this trade deadline is going to be especially predictable. It’s funny that those two trades became trades that we would consider predictable.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
As a Royals fan I’m happy with the trade. They got what they (kind of) needed and didnt really give up a ton. Although Iam a bit confused that that was the winning package of players. It seems like someone like the Jays should have been able to top that. Without even having to include someone like Stroman.
Lamb is 9-1 with great peripherals in a hitters paradise, the PCL. He will end up being the best player Cinci got and should be a cheap controllable back of the rotation starter for a few years. There’s a lot of value in those guys and Cinci wasn’t gojng to do better than that with a comp pick. And as always, we know it was the best deal they got because they took it
He was sitting 94-95 the game i went to.
With a juiced stadium gun? Every source I’ve read said his fastball has improved from the 80’s to the low 90’s and now tops out at 95ish.
The big question mark with Lamb is how his elbow holds up. He had Tommy John surgery on it 4 years ago, so he’s starting to get into the portion of his career where a second Tommy John is increasingly likely. Might not be an issue, but might also explain why the Royals were willing to move him.
Cody Reed has been better this season against right-handers but still has a pretty strong split. He’s almost certainly a LOOGY, albeit a potentially dominant one. That, a high leverage reliever in Finnegan, and a cost-controlled back of the rotation starter with a high floor in Lamb will help Cincinnati for years to come. That said, I understand why Reds fans are disappointed at the lack of a true impact prospect.
I actually think this is an amazing package for them. 3 people who are almost garunteed to positively contribute to the big league club.
No A ball pitcher is guaranteed anything.
he has a left arm right? he can be a loogy
I too have a left arm
I’m not surprised by the winning haul, in fact I’m bored with it. To me this is all about the Reds and continued lack of timing.
From Wiki: “On October 3, 2007, Chairman of the Board of Directors Bill DeWitt announced that the Cardinals “had cordially and respectfully” parted ways with Jocketty based on philosophical differences of player development.”
Timing. Being a step behind.
I was close to landing So Taguchi, Jason Isringhausen and a PTBNL for Cueto. Gotta have a proven closer for when we trade Chappy!
This trade seems to work for both teams in my opinion. The Reds get some solid prospects and the Royals get an ace for a playoff run. Loved the part about “that doesn’t make it a rule”. I have seen a lot of fans pointing this fact out, but the real fact is just because one team hasn’t done it yet doesn’t mean adding an ace midseason is a bad move.
Now I still think the Royals lineup isn’t enough to catch that lightning in a bottle for a real deep playoff run, but we all know pitching is what matters in the playoffs and the Royals made a weakness into a strength. At least temporarily.
Interesting that first Nottingham and now Reed are fitting the Eduardo Rodriguez mold of up-trending prospects who weren’t on anyone’s pre-season lists.
Eduardo Rodriguez ranked 65th on Baseball America’s 2014 Top 100 and higher on some other lists (50th on mine). Were you thinking of someone else or just weren’t aware of his prospect status before being traded to the Red Sox?
Damn I cant believe i missed jdbolicks weekly newslettr putting Erod at #50- sarcasm
You should check it out. It has lots of quality content based on over ten years of professional experience writing about prospects along with funny cat pictures and a diary about my feelings.
I was thinking of Rodriguez but forgot he was rated in the pre-season lists. The point of my comparison was more about the improvement in status from the pre-season to the time they were traded.
And Reed could be the key for this deal. A big lefty with power stuff who’s beginning to show solid command at age 22 could pay off huge (I’m thinking like a left-handed version of Lee Smith or John Smoltz at a similar stage of development, with just slightly lesser stuff).
Ok, but Rodriguez’s prospect status was actually down at the time of the Andrew Miller trade due to a knee issue, slightly reduced velocity, and mediocre numbers with Bowie. I’m an Orioles fan in addition to a prospect analyst, so I spewed venom across the internet at that trade.
Reed has pretty large splits, giving up more walks and achieving far fewer strikeouts against right-handed batters. I would also suggest that his improved walk rate is more a matter of control than command. You certainly give him a chance to start, but I would be really surprised if he ends up as more than a left-handed specialist at the major league level.
What a crappy article. I don’t come here to hear about small sample size arguments that James Shields sucks because he was 0-2 in the playoffs. What if they had David Price? He’s an ace. He’s also 1-5 with a 4.50 ERA in the postseason. It’s a good thing they traded for Cueto, because trading for Price would be a mistake. That guys sucks right?
“leaning on supposed ace James Shields, Shields allowed 17 runs in 25 postseason innings. ”
“James Shields finished 0-and-2. What difference might a real ace have made? ”
Is this Fangraphs or Bleacher Report? I stopped reading after that nonsense.
You don’t get a trophy for winning the regular season.
Small sample size?
Your ever heard of Baseball Reference?
If you had, you’d know that Shields has stunk in the post season to the tune of career post season marks in 11 appearances (all starts) of 3-6 with a 5.46 ERA with 76 hits allowed in 59 1/3 innings pitched and allowing 8 home runs.
Not only did “Big Game James” stink in the post season last year for the Royals, he has for the entirety of his career, by and large.
Comparatively speaking, his post season numbers pale in comparison to his regular season numbers.
I have heard of baseball reference. Do they have a playoff clutchy-ness formula that I can peruse? Is it near their “Will To Win” sliding scale? 11 appearances is not enough to say “this guy sucks, and they should have had this guy”.
Kershaw has been atrocious in the postseason. Should he be benched this year? In 51 innings, he’s 1-5 with a 5.12 ERA. That’s worse than Price. Should he be benched this postseason? Maybe make him a long reliever? If the answer is no, then you agree with me, that the first 2 paragraphs of this article are nonsense, and certainly not up to Fangraphs lofty standards.
Are you one of those guys who thinks Jack Morris should be in the Hall of Fame because he was good in the postseason? I bet you are.
You completely missed Sullivan’s point, one you may have noticed had you been more concerned with comprehension over sanctimony.
His point was not that Shield sucks, rather that despite the fact that he suckED, the Royals “were a swing away” from winning the WS anyway. He was pointing out that the Cueto move is not bad simply because of the small sample size of Shields, and that if Shields had pitched more like Shields is carpable of pitching, they may well have won.
He’s actually agreeing with you in that he does not think SSS should have discouraged the Royals from making a move for Cueto. I’m not sure if you need to work on your reading comprehension or ego or both.
There is celebration to be had with players who perform at their best in the postseason. Madison Bumgarner pitching 52 2/3 with an ERA of 1 last postseason was somewhat clutch, in terms of winning.
David Ortiz OPS in SSS:
2004 – 1.279
2007 – 1.204
2013 – 1.206
Melvin Upton had 5 walks, 10 singles, a double, triple, 7 homeruns, and went 6 of 6 on stolen bases in 2008’s playoffs. Since then, he’s 8 of 38 with no home runs, 16 k’s, and 3 of 5 on stolen bases.
It’s fine to celebrate a great postseason. Just know that it has zero impact on a player’s next postseason.
Here is the sentence that really, really steams me about the article: “What difference might a real ace have made? An ace like Madison Bumgarner, or Johnny Cueto?” Here are James Shields and Madison Bumgarner’s fWAR totals leading up to that world series starting in 2011, when Bumgarner became a full time starter:
Player A: 4.9 3.1 4.0 4.1
Player B: 4.6 4.3 4.0 3.3
Who is who? Which one is “A real ace like Madison Bumgarner” and which one is the “supposed ace”?
tell it again?
What a weak return of prospects.
Royals made out like bandits. Three guys who project as middle relievers, basically.
And on the flip side, the reds have a long history of stretching out prospects projected as relievers and turning them into starters.
Such as…?
Cingrani, Lorenzen, Chapman to name 3. Chapman never got stretched out for a long time but he was projected as a pure reliever and the reds entertained the idea heavily.
And lets not forget Simon becoming an all star. After almost becoming a throw away minor league contract beyond his time with the orioles.
Alfredo Simon had a very lucky half season in 2014: 2.70 ERA in first half while he had a 4.52 ERA in the second half while his FIP for each half were 4.33 and 4.34 respectively.
Cingrani and Lorenzen have not been very good as starters and Cingrani is already back in the bullpen. Chapman has never started a game in the MLB.
You can say they have a “long history” of turning relievers into starters, but they haven’t exactly been successful at all with it. Nor are the Reds exactly known for it.
I wouldn’t say they “made out like bandits” for swapping three likely big-league arms for 10 starts of Johnny Cueto, plus any postseason they might reach.
Unless the Royals win the World Series, they probably lose the trade. If they do, then they won’t care what any of those guys do for the Reds.
Unlike the A’s in the Lester trade last year, the Royals aren’t giving up much (if any) big-league-ready talent here. Finnegan has been at replacement level this year and has only thrown 31 innings in the majors. Lamb might be able to join a rotation, but he’d be a rookie and not a Correa/Bryant/Jose Fernandez kind of rookie.
This is pretty important for a team looking to make back-to-back world series appearances. For a franchise that hadn’t made the playoffs in almost 30 years(!) before 2014, I think this is a fantastic trade. If there ever was an “open window”, this is it.
And another trade proving that rental acquisitions, no matter how fantastic, do not return top prospects.
Nobody wants to trade a top 25 prospect for a rental anymore.
The sabathia type trades just don’t happen anymore.
You can get high floor low ceiling prospects from the upper minors or high ceiling low floor guys from the low minors for a rent an ace nowadays.
This return was extremely telling.
Last year’s shark trade looks like an epic failure in hindsight now.
Hamels might return a serious prospect but aside from him no top 25 and perhaps not even a top 40 prosect will be moved.
Why would Hamels return a top 25? He’s not as good as Cueto and he’s owed a boatload of money well into his decline.
Maybe if Philly chips in 5-10M/year.
they are pretty comparable performance wise, hamels is more durable and proven to be great in the postseason. and his contract while not cheap is probably short term compared to the free agents of his caliber this summer. any team that would consider a cueto or price as a free agent would like them at the cole hamels length of contract.
I doubt a top 25 but i can certainly see a top 40 because they are comparable but hamels comes with three more years of control at a very reasonable price. If cueto had 3 more years he’d return a haul.
Teams fear the years more than dollars. Hamels is controlled for a nice stretch but not a crippling amount of time. He will most certainly return more than a guy you get for 2 months. This seems pretty obvious to me.
The Shark trade looked stupid at the time, too. The guy’s a #3. He was never worth Russell.
The Reds got a 50-75 guy and two 100-200 guys, which is a smart move, because pitching prospects are super unreliable. They did fine.
And the inability to offer arbitration has greatly reduced the value of rentals. They’ve gone from “half a season, a first rounder and a supplemental rounder” to “half a season.”
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. This is the best you can do for a rental ace. Fans think you’re getting a teams top prospect but you aren’t.
I think the last two trade deadlines have mostly shown how perceptions have changed. You’re not going to get Feliz/Saltalamaccia/harrison/andrus for Teixeira anymore. No team is that dumb and they understand the value of youth.
Which makes me wonder, just how much better the Royals window of winning would be had they kept Myers, Odorizzi, and Montgomery.
I don’t understand the question. The players Kansas City acquired in that trade accumulated 4.1 more WAR in 2014 than the players you mentioned.
He’s talking about their “window of winning”. Davis is the only one still giving them value during their window, which is wide open.
I think Shields is paying dividends still. Although he is not on the team, Royals don’t make playoffs last year without him. Royals don’t up their payroll to more than $100 million without that run. Myers and Odorizzi can’t stay healthy. The jury is still out on Monty as there is not enough sample size yet. Monty has given up 16 runs in his last 21 innings.
Wil Myers isn’t exactly accruing value at the moment either.
But that window would not have included 2014.
“Davis is still the only one giving them value”
Is that all? 115 innings of 0.78 ERA relief the past two seasons, 6.2 bWAR, FIP almost as impressive at 1.35?
Well there was an opportunity cost involved. I actually don’t have a problem with that trade and didn’t they got players that were controlled and not rentals.
But he’s right that fans need to start realizing that the sabathia and texiera type trades are a thing of the past. Unless a team has the resources and inclination to extend the player they acquire a rental simply is never worth top prospects.
You’re much better off trading those guys for controlled players who are not stars but will be on your team for at least a couple of years.
The Yankees for instance with Zobrist. Even Sanchez seems like too much to me. Again, either high ceiling guys from the low minors like leo Molina or andujar or low ceiling guys who are near ready like Refsnyder. It just doesn’t make sense to throw away a valuable top prospect for a very small increase in playoff odds. Perhaps a bubble team struggling to generate revenue might feel differently but those deals will be the exception going forward
Odorizzi in particular must sting.
Odorizzi is only good now because he learned a new pitch after the trade
Not sure why that makes it sting less.
Stings, like the feeling I get when Wade Davis is shutting down another 8th inning?
Or that’s he’s under contract through 2017, for something like $3M/WAR?
As a Cardinals fan, I sincerely hope the career-ending piece of garbage Johnny Cueto’s arm falls off, and soon. Shame on him.
…k.
Best fans in baseball.
Unless he’s paying Jason LaRue what he would have earned as a major leaguer, I’m surprised anyone would disagree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_LaRue
“On August 10, 2010, he suffered a concussion caused by a kick to the head by the Cincinnati Reds’ Johnny Cueto, during a bench-clearing brawl.[4] On August 19, LaRue was placed on the 60-day disabled list, ending his season.[5]
The concussion was initially thought to be slight, but LaRue experienced severe post-concussion symptoms. On September 18, LaRue announced his retirement from Major League Baseball. He told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that his symptoms were so severe that he’d been ordered to go back to his home in San Antonio, where he lived during the offseason, because he was in no condition to be left alone. He could not drive or cook for himself for a time, could not watch television or even ride in a car as a passenger with his eyes open.”
Thanks, Johnny Cueto! I’m delighted he’s earning millions of dollars!
Left out the next line. “He’d suffered close to 20 concussions dating to his days as a high school football and baseball player, and doctors told him that as a catcher he was vulnerable to a concussion that was at least as severe as the one he’d suffered in the brawl.[6]”
Cueto was pinned up against the net with 50+ people pushing him. I’m sure he regrets the incident. He hasn’t had any other incidents besides this one.
You forgot to mention that LaRue was physically assualting Cueto at the time. LaRue was part of a large mob of players that ganged up on Cueto and were beating him up against the screen behind home plate. Remember that? I guess Cueto was just supposed to sit there and take his beating without fighting back? If you don’t want to get hurt in a fight, don’t attack someone.
As a Royals fan I love the move. I think there are two aspects of the trade that have been under reported. First is what it does to the psyche of Ventura. It’s been clear this year that carrying the billing of “ace” Ventura had been overwhelming and detrimental. Pretty obvious that he has been mentally tense and overthrowing – I think this is for better or worse the added pressure he has felt. The Cueto addition completely takes away that burden. Cueto is the ace, knows he is the ace and has proven he can perform at that level. The second piece is that this move now makes 3/5 of the Royals rotation Dominican. I just returned from a week in the DR and it can not be overstated how much comraderie is felt with regards to baseball. I am sure Cueto is someone Ventura has long looked up to. Not to mention Ventura and Volquez were teammates. Combine those things with a catcher in Perez who is from Venezuela and you have a pitching staff that culturally is on the same page. I absolutely think this factored into the decision as the chemistry with Cueto is going to be much different than with a Hamels, Samardizja or Kazmir. As Jeff said all this trade does is improve odds – it guarantees nothing – but even if Finnegan, Lamb and Reed become productive MLB players and the Royals don’t achieve the outcome they are hoping for I still consider this the right move,
What’s been under reported is Cueto ended an MLB players career. If Zack Grienke kicked Benji Molina in the face and ended his career, we would still be hearing about it on ESPN everytime Greinke did something. #white guilt matters
Cueto was defending himself after being assaulted by LaRue and a whole mob of Cardinal thugs. You are allowed to defend yourself when attacked. Blaming Cueto for LaRue’s injury is patently ridiculous.
Cueto another Latin illegal thug… Kicked former MLB catcher Jason Larue in head and ended his career. Why was this not mentioned in the days leading up to this? Because it’s no longer PC to mention anything negative toward the Latin player? Just look at Pedro Zimmer’s induction yesterday.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgIlTyCiVYQ