Salt Lake City’s Bid for a Major League Expansion Team Is for Real

Russ Isabella-USA TODAY Sports

“I can’t imagine this at all.”

That was my knee-jerk reaction to last week’s announcement that a Salt Lake City-based group had launched a bid for a Major League Baseball expansion team. Growing up in SLC from 1973–88, I learned to appreciate the area’s mix of minor and major league sports and accept its limitations. I’d already seen prospects on their way up and journeymen on their way down while attending several games of the Pacific Coast League’s Salt Lake Gulls and the Central Hockey League’s Salt Lake Golden Eagles by the time the NBA’s New Orleans Jazz sputtered into town in 1979, financially beleaguered and thin on talent. Frankly, that operation felt minor league itself.

The Jazz eventually grew into an NBA powerhouse, but even having lived and died with that team, and watched the city’s growth mostly from afar for the past three and a half decades (my parents do still reside there), I was not prepared to accept the notion that the city’s time had come for an MLB franchise. I fully understand why the average fan — who for years has been hearing about Portland, Nashville, Montreal and other potential sites — might not be either. But upon closer investigation, this skeptic is convinced the SLC bid is a real contender — though one major and almost unfathomable obstacle looms.

MLB has no imminent plans to expand, but that didn’t prevent a consortium called Big League Utah from announcing its intent to compete for a franchise once the league does decide it’s ready for a 31st and 32nd team. Last week, Big League Utah launched an eye-catching campaign in connection with the groundbreaking of a redevelopment that could include a new ballpark. In touting the state’s growth, economy, location, local enthusiasm for sports, and quality of life, the group calls Utah “a five-tool player” — and I have to admit, that’s a pretty catchy way of putting it.

The refrain since Rob Manfred became commissioner in 2015 is that expansion won’t be an option until the futures of the Oakland Athletics and Tampa Bay Rays are ironed out. Given the ongoing difficulties getting new ballparks built locally, both teams have explored relocation, with the A’s in the midst of an extended flirtation with Las Vegas and the Rays having floated a two-city plan with Montreal that was utterly cockamamie. Suffice it to say that eight years after Manfred took office, neither franchise appears to be on the verge of a solution.

But even with those teams in limbo and expansion plans on hold, in July 2018 Manfred mentioned Charlotte, Nashville, Portland, and Vancouver as options, along with Las Vegas and Montreal. Since then, public-facing groups in Nashville (Music City Baseball) and Portland, Oregon (Portland Diamond Project) have emerged as the most visible efforts to secure expansion teams, hoping to generate local buzz, momentum, and most importantly money to make those big league dreams a reality.

“While there will always be debates over which markets provide the sustainability in fanbase, corporate sponsor pool, media market size, and the weather when ballpark designs are open-air, the main factor for MLB will always center on funding,” wrote Forbes‘ Maury Brown last week. Both to Brown’s eyes and my own, that’s what makes Big League Utah’s bid stand out, because at the center of the bid is the Miller family and the Larry H. Miller Company, pillars of the Utah sports scene since the mid-1980s. Miller (1944-2009) was a Salt Lake City native who starred in local fast-pitch softball leagues and became a regional auto magnate; near the end of his life, his 42 dealerships made him the country’s 10th-largest dealer. In 1985, with the Jazz on the brink of switching cities again, Miller stepped up to purchase a 50% share of the franchise, and the following year, he purchased the other 50%.

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On Miller’s watch, the Jazz developed into a model organization and blossomed into perennial contenders. Miller — an enthusiastic, high-visibility owner who wore his heart on his sleeve — developed close relationships with stars John Stockton and Karl Malone, keeping the pair together for the entirety of the latter’s 19-year run (1985-2003) with the team. Via the Deseret News: “Under Miller’s ownership, beginning with the 1985-86 season, the Jazz were the second winningest team in the NBA during the next 30 years [extending after his death, with the family still running the team], winning 50 or more games 16 times and nine division titles, as well as advancing to the NBA Finals twice.”

Additionally, Miller privately financed the construction of the 20,000-seat Delta Center (now Vivint Arena), which opened in 1991, as the new home for the Jazz. In 2003, he bought the PCL’s Salt Lake Stingers, the Triple-A affiliate of the Angels, and renamed them the Bees. At times he also owned the WNBA’s Utah Starzz, the NBA G-League’s Salt Lake City Stars, and the Golden Eagles as well. During his lifetime, Miller resisted countless overtures to buy the Jazz and move them, particularly in the early years when he was awash in red ink. After his death, wife Gail Miller and her family created a trust that would ensure the Jazz would stay in Utah. In 2020, the family sold the Jazz, the Bees, the Stars, and the arena to minority owner Ryan Smith, another Utahn, for a reported price of $1.66 billion.

Gail Miller now heads Big League Utah, a consortium that includes the Larry H. Miller Company; a handful of other local business leaders including former Utah governor John Huntsman Jr. and family; Tagg Romney and Spencer Zwick, co-founders of Solamere Capital; and former major leaguers Jeremy Guthrie and Dale Murphy. Per Forbes, the 79-year-old Miller has a net worth of $4 billion, tying her with Red Sox owner John Henry (and others) for 271st on the Forbes 400 list, with Angels owner Arte Moreno ($4.1 billion) and Cubs owner Joe Ricketts ($3.9 billion) in the same vicinity. Solamere Capital is a private equity group that could be involved in raising additional capital for expansion fees and building a ballpark; Romney is the son of former presidential candidate and current U.S. senator Mitt Romney, who himself served as the president and CEO of Salt Lake City’s 2002 Winter Olympics effort. Guthrie and Murphy are both Utah residents with ties to Provo’s Brigham Young University; the former began his college career there before transferring to Stanford, while the latter attended school in the offseasons of his career. That Murphy is involved with Big League Utah after previously serving as a consultant for the Portland Diamond Project (he was born and raised in Portland) may reflect a shift in momentum among the aspiring locales.

That’s a high-profile group with much more of a track record in running successful sports franchises than any of the other groups have put forth, and it does suggest they know where the bulk of their money is coming from, where that of the other contenders appears to be murkier. For example, via The Athletic’s profile of the Portland Diamond Project in January, “In 2019, The Oregonian reported PDP had $1.3 billion in financial commitments from private investors. [PDP founder Craig] Cheek indicated that number is higher today but declined to share specifics.” A parallel profile of Music City Baseball, which is headed by former major league star Dave Stewart and features an advisory board that includes Don Mattingly, Tony La Russa, Negro Leagues Baseball Museum president Bob Kendrick, former NFL star Eddie George, and pop star Justin Timberlake (among others), features what Stewart called “soft commitments” from unidentified private investors.

Also worth noting is that Big League Utah appears to have a clear path to a “shovel-ready” site for the ballpark, one whose first-phase groundbreaking last Wednesday served as the impetus for the launch. Rocky Mountain Power, a partner in Big League Utah, owns a 100-acre property between downtown Salt Lake City and Salt Lake International Airport, situated on an existing TRAX (light rail) line and near the intersection of Interstates 80 and 15. “The Power District” — how’s that for a ready-made marketing slogan for a baseball team? — is envisioned as a mixed-use development along the city’s western gateway, one that could accommodate a stadium and feature the nearby Wasatch Mountains as a backdrop, much like the area’s other minor league parks including Smith’s Ballpark, the current home of the Bees and the PAC-12’s University of Utah Utes.

As for public financing, Utah governor Spencer Cox says it hasn’t been discussed with the group yet. Via the Salt Lake Tribune’s Aaron Falk:

“I’m sure there will be down the road,” Cox said. “I’m not a big believer in subsidizing billionaires with taxpayers’ dollars to build stadiums. We haven’t done that historically. I’m not really interested in starting that. But I do believe there are things we can do to help alleviate that burden.”

Cox expects there to be discussions about tax increment financing, which the Millers used to help pay for renovations at Vivint Arena in 2016. The governor also said he supports other means of support, including help with infrastructure.

“Then you’re not just subsidizing one entity, but you’re helping lift an entire area,” he said. “I’m sure there will be lots of conversations about those things in the future, but I kind of recoil at some of the details I’ve seen in other states. Where you’re taking dollars to build ballparks or stadiums, that benefit just accrues to the owner and not the individual taxpayers.”

In the 30-plus years since I left Salt Lake, the city has grown significantly, becoming more cosmopolitan and increasingly diverse. It boasts a thriving economy and demographics that put it on par with several current and aspiring big league cities.

On the one hand, no state with a major league team has a lower population than Utah’s 3.4 million (which ranks 30th); Minnesota, with 5.8 million, is the lowest-ranked at no. 22. Yet via the 2020 United States Census, Utah is the fastest-growing state in the country, with an 18.4% increase in population from 2010 to ’20. That population growth has translated to an ongoing economic boom. In 2021, Forbes ranked the state first in terms of the growth of its GDP. “The Utah economy has been a powerhouse in recent decades, hence the reason why it takes the No. 1 spot,” wrote Andrew DiPietro. “Over the last five years, Utah’s GDP grew by an excellent 19.1%, the second-highest growth rate for that period out of all 50 states.” Going back to 2010, the state’s GDP expanded by 36.6%, and going back to 2000, the growth is 82%.

Salt Lake City has just 200,478 residents according to July 1, 2021 estimates by the U.S. Census Bureau, making it just the 122nd-largest city in the country. That said, the metropolitan area stretching from Ogden in the north to Provo in the south fares better in the Metropolitan Statistical Area population rankings, though it’s still on the small side compared even to the smallest current markets as well as other aspirants:

Metropolitan Statistical Area Ranks of Current & Potential MLB Cities
Rank Metropolitan Statistical Area Status 2020 Population Growth Since 2010 (%)
23 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC Expansion? 2,660,329 +18.6%
25 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA Expansion? 2,512,859 +12.9%
27 Pittsburgh, PA MLB 2,370,930 +0.6%
29 Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise, NV Relocation? 2,265,461 +16.1%
30 Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN MLB 2,256,884 +5.6%
31 Kansas City, MO-KS MLB 2,192,035 +9.1%
34 Cleveland-Elyria, OH MLB 2,088,251 +0.5%
36 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro-Franklin, TN Expansion? 1,989,519 +20.9%
40 Milwaukee-Waukesha, WI MLB 1,574,731 +1.2%
47 Salt Lake City, UT Expansion? 1,257,936 +15.6%
SOURCE: 2020 United States census

Where Salt Lake City stands out more is in the Combined Statistical Area population rankings, which consider adjacent metropolitan and micropolitan areas with economic ties measured by commuting patterns:

Combined Statistical Area Ranks of Current & Potential MLB Cities
Rank Combined statistical area Status 2020 Census Growth (%)
19 Portland-Vancouver-Salem, OR-WA Expansion? 3,280,736 +12.3%
20 St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL MLB 2,924,904 +1.1%
21 Charlotte-Concord, NC-SC Expansion? 2,822,352 +17.5%
22 Salt Lake City-Provo-Orem, UT Expansion? 2,701,129 +18.9%
24 Pittsburgh-New Castle-Weirton, PA-OH-WV MLB 2,657,149 -+0.1%
27 Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City, MO-KS MLB 2,528,644 +7.9%
29 Las Vegas-Henderson, NV Relocation? 2,317,052 +16.1%
30 Cincinnati-Wilmington-Maysville, OH-KY-IN MLB 2,316,022 +5.4%
31 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro, TN Expansion? 2,118,233 +20.1%
33 Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha, WI MLB 2,053,232 +1.3%

Likewise, the area has a leg up on some of the other aspiring locations as well as a handful of current ones is in terms of its television market size according to The Nielsen Company:

Nielsen Designated Market Area Rankings
Rank Market Status TV Homes
21 Charlotte, NC Expansion? 1,323,400
22 Portland, OR Expansion? 1,293,400
26 Pittsburgh, PA MLB 1,174,940
27 Nashville, TN MLB 1,168,540
28 Baltimore, MD MLB 1,149,480
29 Salt Lake City, UT Expansion? 1,148,120
30 San Diego, CA MLB 1,107,010
33 Kansas City, MO MLB 1,019,550
36 Cincinnati, OH MLB 953,940
38 Milwaukee, WI MLB 900,200
40 Las Vegas, NV Relocation? 870,240
SOURCE: https://ustvdb.com/seasons/2022-23/markets/

All of which is to say that it’s at least competitive with other prospective cities in such regards. Baseball-wise, the city has a minor league history that goes back over a century, to when the Sacramento Solons, a charter member of the PCL, moved in time for the league’s second season. Franchises have come and gone since then; in my high school years, the independent Salt Lake Trappers of the rookie-level Pioneer League had to pinch-hit when one Triple-A franchise left town. Things are on healthier footing now; last year, the Bees drew 434,616 fans, ranking fourth in the PCL and 18th in the minors.

Thinking ahead to a potential franchise, we don’t know what form a 32-team MLB would take in terms of division and league breakdowns. The addition of a Salt Lake City team would at least create natural rivalries with the Rockies and Diamondbacks, both of which are currently blacked out in MLB’s ridiculous arrangement. Speaking of the Rockies, Salt Lake City’s official elevation of 4,226 feet above sea level would probably make it another hitter’s haven, something anyone who follows the PCL can tell you.

Still, two areas of concern linger in my mind. First, in January the Larry H. Miller Company unveiled a plan to move the Bees from downtown Smith’s Ballpark, a 15,400-seat park built in 1994, to a new, privately-financed stadium in suburban South Jordan (18 miles south), with a planned opening for 2025. What becomes of that effort? “LHM officials believe a new 8,000-seat stadium in Daybreak won’t cannibalize Utah’s baseball fanbase and will help clear the Salt Lake City market for a major league team,” wrote Falk, adding, “MLB teams in Boston, Seattle, Minnesota, Atlanta and Houston are in similar situations. The Houston Astros’ affiliate in Sugar Land, for example, is about 20 miles away.”

So maybe that isn’t such a big deal. What could be is the future of the body of water that gives the city its name. After decades of drying that have accelerated in recent years due to climate change and population growth, the Great Salt Lake reached a record low water level in November, dipping to 4,188.6 feet above sea level, having lost 70% of its water since 1850. A June 2022 report in the New York Times sounded a dire warning regarding the air quality if the lake continues to dry up: “Most alarming, the air surrounding Salt Lake City would occasionally turn poisonous. The lake bed contains high levels of arsenic and as more of it becomes exposed, wind storms carry that arsenic into the lungs of nearby residents, who make up three-quarters of Utah’s population.”

A January 2023 story in the Washington Post highlighted a report by researchers at BYU that showed that without dramatic cuts to water consumption — consumption driven by the same population growth that makes the area appealing as an expansion site — the lake was on track to disappear in five years. Since then, thankfully, the city has experienced its seventh-snowiest winter on record, with eight local ski resorts reporting record snowfalls. Already, the lake has risen three feet in five months, though it’s still six feet below “the minimum acceptable elevation for the lake’s ecological and economic health,” according to BYU ecologist Ben Abbott, the lead author of the January report.

The current snowpack and its runoff could raise levels another three or four feet, but the long-term sustainability of the lake remains in question, all of which would make for a thorny issue for MLB to consider in the context of a Salt Lake City bid. The likelihood that it will be a few years before the league makes up its mind about expansion — what’s the rush, right? — at least leaves time to see which way the wind is blowing, so to speak.

That rather large and bleak topic aside, I’m genuinely impressed by the case Big League Utah can make for Salt Lake City as an expansion option. This isn’t to say that it will wind up being one of the two best cases when it’s time to give the green light; I’d expect the major financial players to start coming forward after Oakland and Tampa Bay are resolved. But at last, I can at least imagine a major league team in the city where I grew up.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

163 Comments
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sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

I’m all for it. Salt Lake is a pretty wealthy place, so even though it would be in the same scenario as Milwaukee and Cincinnati there’s a lot more money flowing. The Rockies form a natural rival, something they don’t currently have.

It would definitely still be a small-market team, though looking at these charts it sure seems like it’s a good a fit as Nashville. Neither one looks as good as Charlotte or Portland, though. I say they put a team in all four, plus New Jersey and Austin. This would lead MLB to its destiny as a 36-team league (and a 16 team playoff that isn’t ludicrous), and it would allow MLB to keep threatening to move a team to Las Vegas (which, looking at these charts…it doesn’t look like it makes any sense to me).

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I tend to agree. I personally think there are 4 logical choices:

Nashville
Charlotte
Austin
Portland

Nasvhille & Austin may be a little smaller (though San Antonio is within 90 minutes of Austin), but, both are burgeoning & both are also fun cities that would attract opposing fans that would come to spend a weekend while catching a game or 2.

After them, I’d put:

Montreal- another “fun” city, but, been there/done that & weather issues causing need for a dome?

SLC

Then:

Vancouver- I don’t get this one, impinges on Seattle, not that big, travel issues for most teams, def out if Portland gets a team, right?

Las Vegas- I don’t get this one. Weather is awful in summer requiring a dome & while it’s a fun city there may be too many distractions, it seems like it’s made up of transplants, is lower income, has the same long-term water issues,not sure the ties to gambling won’t cause issues, etc.

Last edited 3 years ago by PC1970
slamcactusMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Vancouver’s a split media market that shows Mariners and Blue Jays games, and at least anecdotally from spending a lot of time there folks tend to consider the Jays the home team. The impact on Seattle wouldn’t be nearly as large as if a team came to Portland, currently undisputed Ms territory.

As for “not that big,” it’s bigger than every US city you listed but Charlotte, and its broadcast rights would likely extend to Calgary and Edmonton. That’s another 3 million people who live about the same distance from Vancouver as the population centers in Montana (where the Ms are the “local” team) from Seattle.

Last edited 3 years ago by slamcactus
PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  slamcactus

OK, you talked me into:

Portland/Vancouver as 1st tier. Pick one, whichever one is a better fit, has better infrastructure/ownership, etc..but, you can’t pick both.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

IIRC Vancouver is as big as Seattle and very wealthy. The Mariners would probably throw a fit if there was both a team in Portland and Vancouver, which is the only reason not to put a team in both spots.

I actually think Austin is probably the best spot after Vancouver. I also think Calgary would do very well too.

chamacoMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Austin will not build a publicly funded stadium within the city limits, so any team would be playing outside of town.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  chamaco

Sam Antonio would also be good.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Sam Antonio is definitely also a AAAA catcher who mentors the kids before they reach the majors, Crash Davis style.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

He’s the love child of Sam Neill and Antonio Banderas, and plays Crash in the rebooted Bull Durham streaming series that I’m immediately surprised doesn’t exist now that I have typed the words “rebooted Bull Durham streaming series” ((c) 2023 me, all rights reserved, pitch and ten-episode treatment available upon request)

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  chamaco

The Braves don’t play in Atlanta.

JoeyVottoIsGoneMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  chamaco

Austin City Limits will continue to be musicians-only.

Matt GreeneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Well but as an Ms fan who sees them guzzling revenue and not spending it on contracts anyway–it sure would be fun to have a natural Cascadia rivalry with 3 PacNW teams. In terms of population in North America + wealth, Vancouver would be the top choice. But it is Canada after all…

M’s would do so much better (in terms of competitiveness) with the reduced travel burden of three PacNW teams, and it would put a greater burden on everyone else in terms of travelling to all 3 cities

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

In that case, you might as well put the 3rd Texas team in the larger area of San Antonio rather than Austin.

channelclemente
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Does baseball need another Denver. SLC is at over 4000 feet.

tung_twista
3 years ago

https://red.msudenver.edu/2018/advantage-altitude-exploring-the-largest-home-advantage-in-sports/
Among four major sports league in North America, NHL is the only league where Colorado-based team is not the 1st in home advantage.
Utah Jazz, based in Salt Lake City, has the 2nd highest home court advantage in NBA after Denver Broncos.

MichaelMember since 2020
3 years ago

one of my first thoughts

Youppi!
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

i’m excited to see all the talented teams in the 36 team Manifest Destiny league. i hope it’s like having 6 more Oakland As.

MLB should go down to 28 and then have 8 for D League Relegation Fun, and then make AAA the new AA.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Youppi!

Relegation is absolutely stupid, especially when you have the absolute divide of MLB versus AAA as part of Minor League Baseball.

You can’t just stick a star player back in the media equivalent of AAA just because he happens to play for a bad team! Nobody wants to watch someone like Bryan Reynolds have his career stalled like that.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
Dan B
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Bryan Reynolds already plays for a AAA team.

Johnnie TMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

While expansion is fun, frankly we do not need another franchise in a market as small as Pittsburgh or Kansas City. Frankly, the case for contracting Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, is stronger — those cities are good baseball towns but just do not have the demographic size and are not growing.

I would not consider a city for expansion until it has a metro of nearly 3 million. That’s what the successful relocation/expansion cities (Washington, Seattle, Denver, Phoenix) had. Which means MAYBE like Charlotte or Vegas or Orlando a decade from now?

Cris E
3 years ago
Reply to  Johnnie T

And I’d press for a Brooklyn team as well. The NYC metro can support another team more easily than some of these little guys, especially if an alternative to cable TV revenues can be found.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Johnnie T

I basically agree, but not Orlando. It’s already been proven that MLB does not draw well in Florida regardless of market size. The Rays should be doing everything they can to get OUT of Florida.

Otherwise, yes, the top contenders among U.S. cities should otherwise be the largest MSAs in the country without a team, namely Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland, and Sacramento.

Then you can also throw in the international possibilities of Montreal, Vancouver, and maybe Mexico City. (All other Canadian metro areas are likewise too small.)

I also agree that the New York area could support a 3rd team, preferably in New Jersey, but that’s not high on the priority list.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
NathanielMember since 2016
3 years ago

Do the nasty winter inversions last into april or start as early as october? I’ve been in SLC in january when the air pollution is thick like soup and it looks like a pop fly would bounce off the cloud deck like hitting a catwalk at Tropicana.

But the summers are glorious!

slamcactusMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Nathaniel

Yeah, it can snow in SLC in April or October (or, occasionally September). Similar to Denver. Doesn’t generally stick for more than a day or two though.

Barney Coolio
3 years ago
Reply to  Nathaniel

My Buddy in SLC said they got hit by a massive blizzard about two weeks ago.

steveo
3 years ago

I’m sure SLC could sustain an MLB team, but it’s not even a top 10 expansion city tbh. There are several better candidates that I’m guessing this doesn’t happen.

TribeToTheEndMember since 2016
3 years ago

I’m biased as a Charlotte resident, but that seems like the obvious choice right? Highest population, Tepper Sports Group (who owns the Panthers and Charlotte FC) seemingly has deep pockets, and the Knights (White Sox AAA) have a top 10 AAA attendance in 2022 (Sale Lake is at 18).

It would also save me from my current fate of being blacked out of FOUR different MLB teams… but that’s a different discussion.

Last edited 3 years ago by TribeToTheEnd
slamcactusMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  TribeToTheEnd

It’s actually kind of the same discussion. I assume all 4 of those teams broadcast games in Charlotte? If so, that cuts into the value of each franchise, and those owners are likely lined up in opposition. If not, well, MLB really needs to find a way for people to watch its product.

TribeToTheEndMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  slamcactus

The only team that regularly broadcasts here is the Braves. The other blackouts are Nationals, Orioles, and (somehow) the Reds, none of which can easily be watched here to the best of my knowledge.

MRDXolMember since 2021
3 years ago

It’s a fine candidate, but I agree it’s not as strong as others. Charlotte and Portland are presently the largest candidates by these measures, they’re growing quickly, and the surrounding areas produce a lot of local baseball talent; I believe the Seager brothers, Rodon, and Bumgarner are from NC, while Portland has been manufacturing catchers recently between Rutschman, Langeliers, Cooper Hummel.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

“the surrounding areas produce a lot of local baseball talent”

This is certainly a neat thing from a trivia standpoint, but would probably be like 30th on the list of considerations for where to place a team

MRDXolMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

I would argue that local talent produced is a decent proxy for local interest in the sport of baseball in general, accounting for climate etc. Montreal and Vancouver BC don’t produce much baseball talent bc there isn’t local interest. It’s not a guarantor of success for a location, as the two Florida teams demonstrate despite Florida’s status as a perennial factory of MLB players, but that’s got more to do with how the two Florida teams are run than the market, although Tampa as a market is unique in a bad way.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago

I guess I understand the motivation behind MLB’s turn to the smaller US cities/markets as expansion targets, and this article is a useful comparison of them, but (even as a resident and booster of one of the frequently-discussed ones) I’m not sure it makes more sense to start putting teams in Charlotte, Portland, SLC, Vegas or wherever before you do Vancouver, Montreal, Mexico City, or even San Juan PR, along with a team in NJ or CT. To me the first tier of best-for-baseball options would be the bigger markets that’d also add international appeal, not the ones that’d carve out another little sub-region of the US.

KevinMember since 2022
3 years ago

San Juan was my very first thought. Population makes sense – 3.3 million on the island and another >5 million Puerto Ricans on the mainland. Purely from a fan perspective, it’d be incredible.

Unfortunately I suspect economics make it a complete nonstarter.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

This would be amazing and I agree that it will never happen.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Yeah, Puerto Rico has the market size, but do the fans actually have enough money to support a team there?

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
Lanidrac
3 years ago

The others, maybe (aside from San Juan; see below), but Connecticut isn’t a big enough market on its own when it already has the Red Sox, Yankees, and Mets so close by. If you want another team in the Northeast, New Jersey would easily be the more reasonable choice.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
slamcactusMember since 2020
3 years ago

I keep thinking that all this expansion talk could be pretty effectively put to rest if MLB considered the two giant, extremely wealthy cities north of the border. Vancouver (metro area 2.6m, would be the local team for Calgary & Edmonton, another ~3m people) and Montreal (metro area 4.2m with another million nearby in Quebec City).

Montreal’s huge and ran a successful team for the better part of 3 decades before cheapskate owners did it in. Vancouver adds a badly-needed extra West Coast team to balance travel schedules without cutting into existing teams’ media markets and has a built-in geographic rivalry. Toronto would still be a top-5 media market after losing its nationwide broadcast rights (a huge advantage I’m not sure any team deserves).

Vancouver and Montreal. Make it happen MLB.

Last edited 3 years ago by slamcactus
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  slamcactus

Montreal had some problems well before the cheapskate owner destroyed it. Vancouver would be perfect, though.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m not sure what problems you mean, but the Expos did draw over 2 million fans 1979-83 when that was a lot. Yes there’s CFL in summer but that shouldn’t be much of an obstacle to MLB. Montreal is easily the biggest market not served by MLB in US and Canada. If the A’s moved there I’d probably still support them. Vegas not so much.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Yeah, 1984 was the beginning of the end. They had problems drawing from that points forward. But I suppose the A’s are used to being in the position where they can’t sign free agents and the team averages less than 20K fans a game.

LoafyTrophy
3 years ago
Reply to  slamcactus

There’s some real revisionist history going on here regarding Montreal. The last 21 years the Expos existed they finished in the bottom half of the National League in attendance every single season. That also includes 7 straight years at in dead last at the end. They made a whopping one playoff appearance between 1969 and 2004 and were actually competitive only a handful of times in that 45 year period.

It’s just not a good market for baseball.

seattlefan68Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  LoafyTrophy

Cleveland didn’t make the playoffs between 1955 and 1994. Atlanta made the playoffs twice between 1966 and 1990. The Rangers didn’t make the playoffs between 1972 and 1995. Does that mean they’re in bad markets for a team?

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  seattlefan68

But, ignored the entire part about their poor attendance..while those teams only made the playoffs 1x (& would have made it in 1994 without the strike), they DID generally have decent teams from 1979-1996 (over .500 14x in 18 year period), including having numerous HOF players (Carter, Dawson, Raines, Walker Pedro, etc) that played an exciting brand of baseball…yet attendance collapsed after 1983.

the other thing about Montreal is I wonder what hurdle the French language is for players.

Maybe there is a path with a better stadium, better support, etc, but, the fact baseball failed there already, there are still weather & language issues, etc. Montreal is certainly big enough, but, is size everything?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

I keep bringing up the French language thing and people really do not want to hear it. The language of MLB is English, and the language of Quebec is French. This wasn’t a big deal at all in the 1970s, but in the 1980s a ton of anglophones and allophones left Montreal, and another shift away from Montreal is happening with new language laws passed in the last couple of years. It’s a great place to visit but not a particularly welcoming place to live if you don’t speak French. This gets especially messy for people who don’t speak English or French, because it means you have to learn two languages at the same time. It’s not going to be easy to sign free agents to live there; it’s not like Toronto or Vancouver, which are extremely familiar experiences for anyone who has lived in the US.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The language of MLB is increasingly Spanish

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Nah, the language of the game is money. Or as my pal Jensen said,

“There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! “

noah2112Member since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  slamcactus

The issue with Vancouver and Montreal is that the Blue Jays currently have all of Canada as their broadcast territory. On top of that, the Blue Jays owner, Rogers owns the MLB national Canadian rights. Paying off Rogers to share the rights with another team would be tricky and no one wants another Orioles/Nationals situation.

slamcactusMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  noah2112

I mean, pretty much every potential expansion city has that issue. Portland is in Mariners broadcast territory. The Braves broadcast in Charlotte. I assume either the Rangers, Astros, or both broadcast in Austin.

Ontario alone is a top-5 media market in MLB. One team shouldn’t be able to call dibs on an entire country of nearly 40 million people.

dozingoffdadMember since 2021
3 years ago

So the conclusion is that Salt Lake City could be an excellent option for an expansion team just so long as the region isn’t made unlivable in short order by global warming.

dozingoffdadMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  dozingoffdad

Oh also funny to refer to Huntsman, Romney and Zwick as “local business leaders.” Technically true I guess but these are guys with connections all the way to the top

Trevor May Care Attitude
3 years ago
Reply to  dozingoffdad

That’s how I read it, too!

“It’s a smaller market, but the bid has some punch behind it and oh yeah a chunk of the metro could become uninhabitable due to drought and/or overpopulation. But other than that, smooth sailing!”

Last edited 3 years ago by Trevor May Care Attitude
garpachi
3 years ago
Reply to  dozingoffdad

At the moment its more correct to blame the state legislature and over-allocation of existing water supplies for Great Salt Lake’s water issues than it is to blame climate change. Despite repeated warnings from local researchers, the state has failed to enact any policy changes that would help the lake, instead preferring to research projects such as a pipeline to the Pacific Ocean which are economically unfeasible.

JohnThackerMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  dozingoffdad

The American West’s water issues have been an issue since the area was settled. Even if there were no climate change, water is the limiting factor in population growth. Los Angeles engaged in a lot of chicanery with water rights over 120 years in order to grow to its present size.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  dozingoffdad

Plus, let’s not forget the elevation issue.

speedy
3 years ago

Fwiw MLS attendance figures have been really good for Charlotte at 40K+ per game. Nashville too at 27. Portland has a loyal following. Montreal and Salt Lake are in the middle.

Uncle SpikeMember since 2020
3 years ago

I’m biased but I think Raleigh should be in the mix as well. For some reason, the Raleigh and Durham metro areas are separated even though there less than 30 minutes apart (both Ogden and Provo are further). If you combine them, we’re a little over 2M. The other thing you need to consider is your not going to just get fans from your metro area but people will travel for a game. There’s really nothing outside of the SLC area where as Raleigh is easily accessible from Richmond, VA Beach, Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, Myrtle Beach and Columbian SC. Raleigh is the second fastest growing metro area in the country (19.84%). The Canes had the 2nd largest total attendance and the Durham Bulls were 11th out of 120 minor league franchises. Charlotte already has the Panthers and Hornets as well.

steveo
3 years ago
Reply to  Uncle Spike

Charlotte is just a better city. Raleigh is fine, but there’s far more money in Charlotte and Charlotte better serves South Carolina too. That’s not the case for Raleigh. It’s the same reason Charlotte was chosen for MLS. It’s a better sports town. Who’s ever heard of Raleigh? That matters. The competition for other sports isn’t a real thing. There’s little overlap with the NBA and NFL. The NFL plays once a week. And by the time MLB starts up, NBA is ramping down and starting the playoffs. I think Raleigh is a fine place to have a team if Charlotte never existed unfortunately.

Uncle SpikeMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

Average household income for Wake County (Raleigh) $88,471, for Mecklenburg county (Charlotte) it’s $73,124.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Uncle Spike

Looking at Charlotte-Gaston-Concordia vs. Raleigh-Durham-Cary, the former metro has a 26% higher population, while the latter has a 13% higher income.

Most importantly, though…the Charlotte metro area doesn’t have to compete against the Wolfpack or the Tar Heels.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

I mean…I’d much rather live in the Triangle than Charlotte, haha.

…but competition for fans is absolutely a real thing, and it gives Charlotte a massive advantage.

Folks in the Triangle are NC State fans, UNC fans, or Duke alums who stuck around.

Charlotte’s a city of transplants and children of transplants that has zero college sports.

steveo
3 years ago

It depends what you like. If you like a small town feel, with less to do then Raleigh/Chapel Hill/Durham is your area. If you want a more urban city (if you can call Charlotte urban) with more things to do, Charlotte is better.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  steveo

Oh, the issue is that I wouldn’t call Charlotte “urban” at all, haha.

I haven’t been there since the Lynx lines were expanded, in fairness…but if I’m leaving a real city and moving to the South, I’m moving to Chapel Hill, haha.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

It’s remarkable how little Charlotte feels like a city. Durham and Raleigh both feel much more like one even though both of them combined are nowhere near as big as Charlotte.

CC AFCMember since 2016
3 years ago

Easy solution here if the lake dries up, team becomes the “Giant Salty Crater Whatevers.” The Angels changed their location name like 10 times without really moving.

No but seriously climate change is bad and the west has serious water sustainability issues

Last edited 3 years ago by CC AFC
slamcactusMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Yeah, we should probably come up with a better solution than “use it or lose it” water rights that have farmers in the Sonora desert growing water-intensive livestock feed crops.

synco
3 years ago
Reply to  slamcactus

Or, “we allocated water rights 80 years ago when the region was vastly different, but cannot possibly change them now when tens of millions more people live here and we face disaster”.

jwa05001
3 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

If climate change gets that bad, I’d say Major League Baseball (and where it’s played) are going to be low priority for all of us anyway.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  jwa05001

Last season of Brockmire!

Raidas77
3 years ago

I don’t see Portland as a realistic candidate at this point, doesn’t even compare to Nashville, Vegas and Charlotte until they can (big if) get that city under control.

People are exiting Multnomah County faster than rats on a sinking ship due to the violence, drug use and general lack of law and order going on there.

dozingoffdadMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  Raidas77

Me and all my reasonable friends who have never been to Portland are always saying this to one another. Often at full volume

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  Raidas77

Fox News grandpas everywhere agree — no baseball can be carried out in an anarchist no-go zone. The Timbers and Thorns are obviously only allowed to play in a lovely stadium right in the middle of downtown because soccer is antifa, and everyone knows there is no NBA team in Portland either

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago

And as much as this stuff is objectively nonsensical, it probably is right to think it represents an obstacle to the Portland team’s pitch. If Fox-poisoned suburbanites are actually terrified to drive downtown, even if objectively they’re scared of their own shadows, that’s still like 25% of your ticket sales. The Portland Diamond Project probably needs to add to their plan an entirely indoor boarding gangway that runs straight from the parking lot to the stadium, just to capture the Lake Oswego crowd who can no longer go to Powell’s Books without shaking in fear because they saw a poor.

JakeDuboisMember since 2020
3 years ago

I haven’t lived in Portland or been there recently, so I’m not speaking from experience, but I am not a Republican and do not watch Fox News or anything like it, and I have been hearing about issues in Portland for a few years now.

Here’s an article from the LA Times–hardly a right-wing media outlet!–discussing some of those very problems:

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-02-10/whats-the-matter-with-portland-urban-ills-tests-citys-progressive-strain

We don’t have to agree what the solution is, but it’s not ridiculous to say that Portland currently has a credibility crisis regarding crime and homelessness.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  JakeDubois

If you want to bend over backwards to translate “get that city under control” and “People are exiting Multnomah County faster than rats on a sinking ship due to the violence, drug use and general lack of law and order” into some kind of far more temperate, reasonable, and non-insane point about homelessness (NB that homelessness was not even mentioned there) and crime, you are welcome to do so, but please don’t pretend that’s what I was responding to. (The issues discussed in the article you link, while real, are basically universal to West Coast cities; yet many of the other ones still manage to have baseball teams.)

Last edited 3 years ago by Roger McDowell Hot Foot
Roger McDowell Hot Foot
3 years ago
Reply to  JakeDubois

And just to address this part:

I am not a Republican and do not watch Fox News or anything like it, and I have been hearing about issues in Portland for a few years now

The sea change in national media coverage of Portland — from twee Portlandia yuppie comedy to “anarchist hellscape” — traces very specifically to the downtown George Floyd protests in 2020. Because the protests went on so long and were so militant compared to most other cities’ (even though they were always localized to just a few blocks downtown), Fox made a concerted effort to portray the entire city as a burning wasteland roved by anarchist crime gangs — while the more respectable media took it as an opportunity for thumbsuckers about the “progressive” city’s homelessness, drug decriminalization, etc. problems. All this basically reinforced the national perception that something big had changed and the city had unique problems (which it doesn’t) rather than the same kind of problems that Seattle and San Francisco have (which it does).

slamcactusMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  JakeDubois

This same conversation is happening in literally every city west of the Mississippi, including several that already have MLB teams.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago

Soccer IS for pinkos, in fairness!

They play it in Europe!

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago

It’s all here: fast kicking, low scoring, and ties? You bet!

See all of your favorite stars, like Arriaga! Arriaga II! Barriaga! Aruglia! And PIZZOZA

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Raidas77

Portland is a weird place. Its violent crime rate is quite low. It’s property crime rate is quite high. This is an unusual combination, but when it happens it usually occurs because rent and home prices are much too high for normal people to survive, leading to a lot of unhoused individuals. People on the streets are often pretty desperate.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
jwa05001
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Having your property vandalized or stolen is going to drive more people away than violent crime. Most of your property owners are never around the area of the city where violent crime is occurring

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  jwa05001

I mean, not really? The other place that is like this that I know of is San Francisco. And in both places there are an endless stream of people trying to live there. That’s ultimately the problem, too. They need to build 50 story buildings there to bring the cost of housing down or it will never get better.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Or they could…make a meaningful investment in public transit!

The BART made me nostalgic for the freaking MARTA

raregokusMember since 2022
3 years ago

BART isn’t great, but MARTA? MARTA is useless to everyone that doesn’t live in the suburbs or isn’t on their way to the airport. BART at least has more than two lines.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  raregokus

SF Proper has a single BART line, consisting of 8 stops between Daly City and West Oakland!

gettwobrute79Member since 2020
3 years ago

Is the BART line the new Mendoza line?

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Ironically, public transit in the St. Louis area is very limited, because too many people in the richer suburbs have voted down expasion to their areas out of irrational fear that it will somehow cause criminals in the city to spread their activities to their areas if they are given such easy transport access.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Sounds familiar – I went to college in Atlanta, haha.

MRDXolMember since 2021
3 years ago
Reply to  Raidas77

I live right smack in downtown Portland. The media portrayal of Portland is simply disconnected from reality. Yeah, there’s a lot of unhoused people. But it’s simply massively overblown as an actual issue. In reality, Portland still has a pretty low violent crime rate. Somehow the supposed “violence, drug use and general lack of law and order” has not been remotely detrimental to the Timbers, Thorns, or Blazers support. The Timbers ranked 6th in MLS attendance for ’22, and Thorns were 2nd (of 12) in NWSL attendance.

Meanwhile, the Blazers were 10th in attendance in the NBA in 2023– just above the Lakers, even though the Blazers missed the play-in and spent the last ~40% of the season openly tanking for the second straight year.

Charlotte’s Hornets placed 23rd on similar performance, SLC’s Jazz were 13th, and the Nashville Predators were 22nd, despite none of these competing potential expansion cities dealing with “violence, drug use and general lack of law and order”. Now, Charlotte and Nashville also did well in MLS attendance– 2nd and 4th respectively for ’22, albeit both with stadium capacities far exceeding Portland’s antique Providence Park.

The numbers say that suburbanites somehow get over their mortal terror to go to sporting events.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

But why let the truth get in the way of the burning hellhole narrative?! When we can scare people into buying another rocket launcher to put under their MyPillow at night…

chamacoMember since 2020
3 years ago

The reason the lake is drying up is mainly due to water use for (unsustainable) agricultural practices. About 3/4 of water use in the Great Salt Lake watershed is for irrigation of crops like alfalfa and hay, per this report: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kPKeZIYlptzoITZdgjQi9tqubPejeVdE/view

JohnThackerMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  chamaco

We’d be much better off pricing water at market rate to encourage conservation throughout the American West instead of the absurd system of water rights we have, but regardless, water has, is, and will be a limitation on population growth there. It has always played an outsized role in politics.

SolerPower35
3 years ago
Reply to  JohnThacker

Given the amount of times I’ve had a small river running down my street in LA this winter, I’m ready to declare the water crisis over. /s

Groundout
3 years ago

I think SLC is an outstanding option. It seems like one of the reasons the Florida teams have struggled is that the state has a large transplant population (and loyalties to other teams). Utah is basically the opposite of that. It’s also far enough from any other major league teams that there wouldn’t be much competition from established interests — Denver, Phoenix, and the west coast teams are all 500+ miles away.

The south is very underrepresented in baseball — it’s pretty hard to imagine neither Charlotte or Nashville getting a team in the next round of expansion — but I think SLC is at the top of the next tier.

Austin is a terrible choice: it’s all New Yorkers and Californians, there’s nowhere to build unless you go really far out, the traffic is abysmal, the town is nuts for UT football, and baseball fans can still watch the college baseball team, or are already fans of the Astros or Rangers.

chamacoMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Groundout

While I agree on having to build a stadium outside the city limits, Austin would support a team, if Austin FC’s success is any indication.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  chamaco

So just build it in the nearby larger city of San Antonio, then everyone wins.

tootblan
3 years ago
Reply to  Groundout

As a Nashville resident I’d love an MLB team, but I worry Nashville may be in the same boat as Austin. No doubt there’s enough population and growth here to sustain a team, but the city is mostly transplants and the locals here who like baseball already root for the Braves, Cards, or Vols/Vandy. Especially considering the data presented here that shows Nashville would be a smaller market I feel it’s objectively an overrated expansion target.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  tootblan

Maybe too many transplants could be a problem, but at least those places don’t have the richest residents leaving town entirely during the summer like in Florida.

achidesterMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Groundout

Utah has a pretty large base of transplants, too. A ton of Dodger/Giants fans for baseball, but Lakers/49ers/Broncos are hugely popular in other sports. I could see a lot of folks changing allegiances for the local team, certainly.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Groundout

To be fair the main problems with the Florida teams are that the Rays stadium is in a terrible location and Miami has had ownership who run the team in an insulting way. Everyone everywhere is a fan of another team until a new one moves in.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

No, those are only the side problems. The major problems are that the richest people don’t live there during most of baseball season, most retirees are on fixed incomes, the Cuban immigrants are generally poorer than other groups, and the rest of the population still has a bunch of transplants with strong pre-existing loyalties to other teams.

Note that even when the Marlins got a new stadium, they only received a large attendance spike for a year or two before it went back in the gutter, and they’ve actually had a few decent years here and there in that time.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Groundout

I mean..the people in Charlotte who aren’t from NY or Boston are the children of NYers and Bostonians, haha.

NathanielMember since 2016
3 years ago

Team name ideas:

  • Salt Lake Black Diamonds
  • Salt Lake Brine Shrimp
  • Salt Lake Effect
  • Salt Lake Oquirrhs
  • Alta Snowboarders
  • Wasatch Fronters
  • Salt Lake Gondoliers
Demiurge
3 years ago
Reply to  Nathaniel

Gondoliers +1

Demiurge
3 years ago
Reply to  Nathaniel

Utah Jazz Police!

jwa05001
3 years ago

Why does SLC’s “racial diversity” matter when determining if it’s a good candidate for an MLB franchise? If the city were made up of 99% white people, would that make it a bad candidate?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  jwa05001

If you’re trying to recruit free agents, it can be a bit of a problem.

jwa05001
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Don’t think I’d be interested in signing a free agent who uses fan skin color as a determining factor for signing

MichaelMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

good point. one among many reasons why I’d stay away from SLC as a free agent. the team wouldn’t even let me ski i’m sure

kid
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

That’s way down the list of considerations for FAs. Money, team quality, geographic preferences, proximity to family/home matter way more.

cregwalkerMember since 2022
3 years ago

We already have one expansion franchise that hasn’t figured out how to put together a successful team given their environmental challenges (see Rockies, Colorado), do we really need another?

Uncle SpikeMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  cregwalker

I think their challenges are much more to do with their front office then their environment. In fact, I think their environment is probably the best thing they have going for them. They have a really loyal fanbase and one of the better destination ballparks in the game. The front office on the other hand leaves a lot to be desired.

Last edited 3 years ago by Uncle Spike
Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Uncle Spike

The current front office, yes, but their biggest issues are the environmental ones they’ve always had. It isn’t just because of the current front office that the team has only 5 playoff appearances and a single NL Pennant in 29 years (not counting ’94).

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
shultz
3 years ago

Um . . . how important are beer sales to a franchise with a smaller demographic?

Meanwhile, in Las Vegas, there would be gambling revenue in addition to beer sales. The open question is whether they’d build a new baseball stadium on the site of the Tropicana or the the site of the Rio.

Oh, and Las Vegas attracts 45 million tourists a year. Add that to your demo numbers.

HowBoutDemOsMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  shultz

But do tourists go to baseball games with any regularity?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  HowBoutDemOs

Vegas tourists, no less.

The answer is not, they do not.

shultz
3 years ago

This isn’t just theoretical. Tourists come to watch the Golden Knights and the Raiders play against their home team. Why wouldn’t they do it for baseball?

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  shultz

They do..but, important difference- weather. Those teams play in fall/winter, so for people in the Midwest it’s a chance to get some warm weather, gamble, etc while going to see their team.

Are people from the Midwest going to flock to 95-100+degree Vegas (which it is from mid May thru September) when the weather is actually nice where they live? There’s a reason people don’t go to Florida in the summer, wouldn’t the same apply to LV?

Add in sports gambling coming to more & more states & casinos everywhere & I wonder if the allure is that strong in summer?

Last edited 3 years ago by PC1970
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

“But it’s a dry heat!”

Was in Vegas for work last July, and it was gross.

And the weather was unpleasant, too!

shultz
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Here are the number of tourists coming to Las Vegas in pre-pandemic 2019 by month (taken from the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority):

Jan: 3,412,100
Feb: 3,189,900
Mar: 3,679,100
Apr: 3,542,000
May:3,691,100
Jun: 3,607,400
Jul: 3,685,900
Aug: 3,579,000
Sep: 3,475,900
Oct: 3,668,100
Nov: 3,509,800
Dec: 3,465,700

Tourists come here consistently–throughout the summer. In fact, the lowest performing months are December, January, and February.

There’s this thing called air conditioning, and the chances of a new baseball stadium not being air conditioned in Las Vegas are zero.

The casino industry gets what it wants in Nevada. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and they’re paying everybody’s bills in Nevada. And the casino industry wants more reasons for more people to fly to Las Vegas every year. It’s a no-brainer.

shultz
3 years ago

According to an old article in Forbes about where StubHub sells tickets for Golden Knights . . .

“Out of state sales on StubHub comprised roughly 64% of all tickets sold, considerably above levels from some of the league’s top draws.”

—-Forbes

Flights, food, and hotel rooms are cheap in Las Vegas.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  HowBoutDemOs

I think some might..in the right segment.

Families might. We’ve gone to games in toronto, DC, Milwaukee, SD on family trips as an “event” with the kids.

Fans looking for a long weekend in a fun city may decide to go to a city for a 4 day weekend & see their team 1x. I could see fans of say, Atlanta Braves, going to Nashville or Austin for a long weekend & catching a Braves-Austin game..esp a day game & then hit the night life after..

I don’t think Vegas tourists fit either category. They’re there to gamble & party. & the ties to gambling don’t thrill me. Add in that it’s 100+ degrees outside 4 months of the baseball season. Add in the water/climate change issues coming down the pike. It’s genrally a low income area. Hard pass.

Last edited 3 years ago by PC1970
SolerPower35
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

If we’re taking climate change into account then we gotta get the Rays and Marlins outta Florida asap

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  SolerPower35

Insert <Bugs Bunny sawing off Florida> GIF

shultz
3 years ago
Reply to  HowBoutDemOs

People fly into Las Vegas without baseball. If the Cubs, Mets, Yankees, Dodgers, etc. were playing a series in Las Vegas, yes, there are plenty of people who will fly in for the weekend–for that in addition to everything else Vegas has to offer. As it stands, thousands of people watching the Golden Knights and the Raiders are coming in to watch their home team play against Las Vegas. And that doesn’t count those among the 45 million who were already coming anyway–and would just as soon see a baseball game rather than watch whatever the Circe de Soleil is doing these days.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

I’m all for expansion to SLC and Montreal, and for that matter anywhere else. The issue in all of these places is who pays for the stadium. A’s are having trouble getting anyone anywhere to build them one.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
3 years ago

I’m fine with expansion as long as the league takes a long hard look at contraction first.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

There’s no need for contraction when teams can just relocate as necessary. It’s the very reason MLB is waiting for the A’s and Rays to figure things out first.

SolerPower35
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Well how much longer are they gonna take to figure things out ffs they’ve been in those nasty ass stadiums for decades now

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  SolerPower35

Well, it turns out that the A’s just bought some land in Vegas…

trotnixonMember since 2025
3 years ago

Gimme Montreal before SLC & their weak-ass beer.

HowBoutDemOsMember since 2019
3 years ago

I have no dog in this fight (not really a fight…idea?), but I find it odd that of all the cities discussed, and the many comments, there’s not a single mention of Indianapolis. Why is that? Is it just that there’s no local org there making a push? Number 33 in Metropolitan Statistical area, Number 25 in television markets, NFL and NBA teams that get strong fan support, and the site of a triple A team with the fifth highest attendance in all the minors last year. It just seems like a very obvious candidate, right in the same tier as Nashville and Charlotte (and maybe Portland). Genuinely curious–why is it not a serious candidate?

To echo sadtrombone, this article does further underline why Las Vegas is simply not a good contender, and it really seems like Oakland would be making a huge mistake going there over so many better options.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  HowBoutDemOs

A. Cities like Nashville, Austin, Charlotte are growing much faster, I.E., Indy may be similar in size today, but, how about 15-20 years from now? 30 years?

B. There are 4 MLB teams within 250 miles (Cincy, Both Chicago teams, St. Louis), Detroit is less than 300 miles, Cleveland just over 300. Of the favored expansion sites, Portland/Vancouver are within 200 miles of only 1 team (seattle) & no other even close, Austin is within 200 miles of Dallas & Houston with no one else close, charlotte & Nashville are more than 250 miles from ANY team, so is Montreal. SLC has none within 400 miles.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Indianapolis, I have friends that live there & I go there 2-3x a year. I just don’t see that it adds a new market or a geographic area that some of the other options (particularly SLC, one of the Canadian cities, Charlotte opening up growing NC, etc) would bring. The new market angle does hurt Portland & especiallly Austin, too.

Last edited 3 years ago by PC1970
Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Agreed – I don’t think expansion would be looking toward the rust belt/midwest nearly as much as the sun belt, what with the long-term demographic trends in play

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Yeah, I think Vancouver’s a better shout than Portland just because of the “Go Canada” aspect.

I think Charlotte’s the other best option – rapidly growing, has proven it can and will support 3 other pro sports (if the MLS counts, haha!), and no competition from college loyalties.

MRDXolMember since 2021
3 years ago

I think there’s considerably more local interest in baseball in Portland already than there is in Vancouver, though. Most Canadians not from the Toronto region aren’t particularly invested in baseball in general, but Portland/Oregon overall produces a very respectable amount of talent for its population. It’s quite strong in college ball too; Oregon State has been a perennial powerhouse for the past decade or so, and University of Oregon is usually top 25 to 50 in the country. Nike’s world HQ being located in the immediate suburbs is a unique boost to any sports team in Portland, too.

Last edited 3 years ago by MRDXol
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

This is the correct answer. Putting new teams in the Rust Belt is asking for a disaster. If you look at population growth trends, Texas should be first in line for a new team, North Carolina, and a place in the Mountain West region are where you would put a new team. And probably New Jersey too, although the Yankees and Mets would throw a fit.

One thing that could work is relocating the Reds to Indianapolis, but putting a new team there? You can already see what it’s like for the Guardians and Pirates competing with each other.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Exactly..too many teams already in that sandbox (Hell, I missed Milwaukee, they’re less than 300 miles from Indy, too) & due to that, they’re landlocked..even the metro areas without teams (Columbus, Louisville, Dayton, South Bend) are closer to existing teams than Indy, so I’d doubt they would draw from those spots.

Really, when you look at it in totality, the things you would look for would be:

Population, esp growing population
New market/no other teams near by
High income
Good ownership/infrastructure

What places check all 4?

Charlotte,Nashville

Can squint & make a case for:

Vancouver/Portland (though I wonder how much interest there really is in Vancouver)
SLC (if you overlook the climate change issue)

I think all the others fail at least one of those. Austin/SA has 5M people but just further divides Texas, NJ does the same with NY/Philly. Montreal has issues with language, didn’t support a decent Expos franchise, LV is just a bad idea to me.

Last edited 3 years ago by PC1970
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

I would make the argument that there is more than enough money and people for 3 teams in Texas. Potentially even 4 but I don’t think the population distribution is right for it. The population growth around the bigger cities in Texas is staggering.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It is. There is going to end up being 25M+ people in that Dallas/Houston/Austin/SA triangle. Probably similar to the east coast NY/Philly/DC corridor.

It would be better geographically if one of the more western cities of Texas like El Paso or Lubbock or Amarillo had the demographics of Austin/San Antonio..would be on it’s own little island & far enough away from Dallas/Houston to not cause too many teams in a somewhat compact area.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

El Paso could be a boom city at some point in the next 30 years.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, if California can support 4 teams (not counting the A’s), Texas can support 3.

JoeyVottoIsGoneMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“Relocating the Reds?” Get out of here!

“To Indiana, where you grew up?” Where do I sign on the dotted line?

RonnieDobbs
3 years ago

I am for contraction. The overall level of talent is too low.

Baltimore, MurraylandMember since 2020
3 years ago

I’ve lived in Vancouver for eight years. The hi-A Canadians draw well. Some Vancouverites go to Seattle when the Jays are there. Jays caps abound (but kind of in the way that lots of non-baseball fans in the US wear Yankees caps). The metro demographics are very much in line with Portland/Charlotte/Vegas. (Metro Seattle metro is about 50% bigger, btw.) All that said, I’m not convinced MLB would be something people care about. I don’t think I’ve ever had a conversation about baseball with anyone here–other than with other transplanted Americans. Larry Walker is from the Vancouver suburbs, and when he got in the HOF, few seemed to know or care. A ballfield near where he grew up (and where his grandfather played semi-pro) is named for him, but otherwise no fanfare that I recall. Ok, that’s not proof of lack of baseball interest, but what’s the proof for widespread interest? Sheer numbers of people?

gettwobrute79Member since 2020
3 years ago

Move Oakland to Vegas, Tampa to Charlotte. Expansion teams in Salt Lake and Vancouver. Four divisions of eight as follows:

NL
Clemente Division: Mets, Braves, Marlins, Nationals, Phillies, Pirates, Reds, Brewers.

Robinson Division: Dodgers, Giants, Padres, Rockies, Diamondbacks, Cardinals, Cubs, Salt Lake.

AL
Ruth Division: Yankees, Red Sox, Orioles, Blue Jays, Charlotte, Tigers, Guardians, White Sox.

Ichiro Division: Mariners, Angels, Vegas, Astros, Rangers, Vancouver, Royals, Twins.

Schedule is 156 games. Each team would play their division mates 12 times (a total of 84 games) six total games with the other division in their league (48 games) and one three game series against each team in a division in the other league (24 games), rotating division opponents by year.

Playoffs would be one of the following scenarios.

A) Division winners get byes, and the four other teams in each league play two of three to advance. This would basically be the same format as last year, yet with different matchups (Braves and LAD have byes, but Mets host Phil’s, Cards host SD). Winners then move on to best of seven series from then on.

B) Add a seventh team to the above format so there is a one-and-done (Brewers for the NL in the above scenario). I’m less in favor of adding B because it opens the door for potentially really mediocre teams making the playoffs. An 83 win Baltimore slides into the playoffs in 2022, an 83 win Cincinnati and 82 win Philadelphia slide in for 2021. Also, I’d prefer to leave the one game win or go home to the regular season ties.

RoyalsFan#14321
3 years ago

Is it just me or did that list of names from the Nashville group read like the long list of “other guys”? Justin Timberlake is easily the wealthiest and he’s “only” worth something like $150M. I’m sure Bob Kendrick is a fantastic guy and maybe wealthier than 99% of Americans… but that group needs to find someone worth *at least* $3B to be considered a legitimate contender, and maybe a few others who throw some financial weight around.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago

We’re assembling a crack team comprised of ALL the “other guys”:

The non-Tom Hanks Bosom Buddy
The non-Bronson Pinchot Perfect Stranger
The Peter Kriss part of KISS
Christian Laettner from the 1992 Dream Team
John Oates

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Andrew Ridgeley, Michelle Williams, Rusty Lisch

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Given how the market size is only barely in the same realm of other MLB cities, I think the elevation is the tiebreaker as to why Salt Lake City should not get a team. We really don’t need a Coors Field Jr. significantly messing with breaking pitches and fly ball distances unless the market is firmly large enough to support a team.

SolerPower35
3 years ago

Based on nothing other than how cool I think it would be, Vegas, Nashville and Mexico City would be my picks. I’d bet that a team in Mexico City would be insanely popular

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  SolerPower35

Sure Mexico City, Santo Domingo, San Juan, Caracas and Havana would all have incredibly popular MLB teams. Unfortunately their governments aren’t reliable partners for foreign investment

Manco
3 years ago

Where does altitude fit into this one for the MLB? Also, not sure but I assume most expansions must hold their weight financially beyond an early burst of enthusiasm.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago

BTW, for all the talk about Mexico City. Couple things:

It’s over 7200 feet above sea level, about 2,000 feet higher than Denver.
Player safety would be a real concern, much more so than the goofy “Portland is out of control” stuff. Drug cartels & rampant police corruption are much more of a real thing than in the US.
Really wonder how the economics would work. Average income is less than $20,000 USD.It clearly has the size & would surely have the interest & it would be cool to have a team in Mexico, but, the 3 issues above would have to be considered/worked out. Not sure how how the heck you correct #1..Super humidor?

Last edited 3 years ago by PC1970
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

Looks like A’s to Vegas is done. I will either need to find another team to support or to not follow baseball closely. It’s been a good run either way. I’m not particularly upset.

Last edited 3 years ago by Ivan_Grushenko
Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

There’s another team just across the bay, you know…

Baltimore, MurraylandMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

True or false: the Giants share a lot of the blame. Didn’t they block a move to San Jose?

Last edited 3 years ago by Baltimore, Murrayland
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

Well it was their contractual right but MLB could have forced them like they did with the Orioles. MLB would be better off with teams in San Jose and San Francisco compared to Las Vegas and San Francisco

Last edited 3 years ago by Ivan_Grushenko
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

They don’t really appeal to me. I’m indifferent to them

MichaelD
3 years ago

Every negative of Salt Lake City (except elevation) is as true or more so for Las Vegas, but every one is hailing them getting the A’s.

Market size of Vegas is smaller
The state is smaller
The water issue is just as acute
The weather during part of the season is the opposite problem but still an issue (hot instead of cold)

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

I’m not stumping for Vegas but these factors range from absolutely true to partially true to totally irrelevant

  • Market size: Perhaps, but a Vegas team would be largely supported by tourist flow. As noted above the city draws 3.5MM per month, and nearly 2/3 of Golden Knights ticket sales were to visitors.
  • The state is smaller: totally irrelevant. Nobody is coming from Elko or Reno or Winnemucca or Ely to watch a Vegas game, just as nobody is coming from St. George or Moab to watch a SLC game. State size is just not a factor in any decision at all – market size is certainly relevant, state size is not
  • Water issue: agreed, that’s an acute and worsening problem for anywhere out west
  • Weather: a Vegas team would 100% play indoors, so that’s a nonfactor
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

…but what’s the breakdown of Vegas’s “per month” average?

A split along the lines of “5m October-March and 2m April-September” would be deeply unsurprising to me…and that’s before you factor in stuff like the relative appeal of baseball and hockey to Vegas’s target demographic.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

At least beer sales wouldn’t suffer in Vegas.