Scott Rolen, Ron Santo and the Third-Base Myth
In one way, Mike Schmidt is the prototypical third baseman: he was a great hitter and provided excellent defense. In another way, though, he isn’t: a prototype is a model on which subsequent reproductions are based. But no other third basemen has ever reproduced Schmidt’s accomplishments. He’s the best third baseman ever.
There’s a view that’s prevailed for some time to the effect that third basemen are just like first basemen except slightly more mobile. This was never really the case, though — and, on offense, third basemen now have a lot more in common with second basemen than their counterparts on the other corner of the diamond. This view likely cost Ron Santo the chances to enter the Hall of Fame by way of the writers’ ballot and, ultimately, prevented him from living to see his own induction.
A very similar player, Scott Rolen, will appear on the ballot for the first time in 2017. Based on the value he provided both on offense and on defense, Rolen deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Here are some mostly mainstream stats, with a few other metrics worked in, comparing Santo and Rolen:
| Name | PA | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG | wOBA | wRC+ | WAR | Gold Gloves | All-Star Games | Highest MVP Finish |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Scott Rolen | 8518 | 316 | .281 | .364 | .490 | .368 | 122 | 70.1 | 8 | 7 | 4 |
| Ron Santo |
9397 | 342 | .277 | .362 | .464 | .367 | 126 | 70.9 | 5 | 9 | 4 |
That’s pretty darn close across the board. Rolen’s capacity for doubles resulted in a much higher slugging percentage. Because he played in an era defined by greater run-scoring, though, he sits slightly behind Santo in wRC+. Rolen closes the gap with superior defensive numbers, however — only Brooks Robinson and Mike Schmidt have more Gold Gloves than Rolen at third base, if you’re into that sort of thing — to end up with nearly identical WAR numbers.
Individual comparisons often make for a poor method for evaluating a potential Hall of Famer’s case. Going to the lowest common denominator will inevitably end up lowering standards for the Hall of Fame. (Consider what would happen if comparing every outfielder to Jim Rice, every first baseman to Orlando Cepeda, every second baseman to Red Schoendienst, etc.) That said, comparing a candidate to a clearly deserving member of the Hall can provide solid insight.
In this context, Ron Santo is relevant. He’s both (a) in the Hall of Fame and (b) clearly deserving. His 71 WAR is eighth all-time among third basemen. Jay Jaffe’s JAWS places him seventh among third basemen, and my HOF Ratings (a modified version of Jaffe’s system) ranks him at eighth, with Brooks Robinson (and six other guys) ahead of him.
Despite what appear to be strong credentials, Santo had difficulty finding his way into the Hall. When he first appeared on the ballot, he received just 15 votes (3.9%) and fell off the ballot. He was added back on the ballot in 1985 and received 13.4% of the vote. In 1998, after 15 tries, he fell off the ballot for good, after receiving just 43.1% of the vote. Over the next dozen years, Santo appeared on the Veteran’s ballot on four different occasions and still couldn’t gain election. It wasn’t until after his death that this error was corrected and Santo was finally inducted in 2012. Santo remains the only player born in the last 100 years elected by the Veteran’s/Eras Committee since 2001.
While Santo was overlooked, it might help to take a look at where Rolen ranks among third basemen who have been elected and played at least most of their career since World War II. It’s a small list and Rolen holds his own, but doesn’t fare all that well.
| HR | wRC+ | DEF Runs | WAR | Gold Gloves | First Ballot HOF | Veteran’s Committee | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mike Schmidt | 548 | 147 | 151 | 106.5 | 10 | x | |
| Eddie Mathews | 512 | 143 | 63 | 96.1 | 0 | ||
| Wade Boggs | 118 | 132 | 106 | 88.3 | 2 | x | |
| George Brett | 317 | 132 | -10 | 84.6 | 1 | x | |
| Brooks Robinson | 268 | 104 | 360 | 80.2 | 16 | x | |
| Ron Santo | 342 | 126 | 70 | 70.9 | 5 | x | |
| Paul Molitor | 234 | 122 | -114 | 67.6 | 0 | x | |
| George Kell | 78 | 111 | 25 | 38.2 | NA | x | |
| AVERAGE | 302 | 127 | 81 | 79.1 | 5 | ||
| Scott Rolen | 316 | 122 | 182 | 70.1 | 8 |
By WAR, Rolen is way ahead of Veteran’s Committee entrant George Kelly, roughly even with Santo, and edges out Molitor, who’s actually only sort of a third baseman himself: he played more games in the field at third than any other position, but started more games at designated hitter than at third base. Chipper Jones and his 141 wRC+ will add strength to this list next year. Rolen’s wRC+ falls a little behind the average and he makes up some ground with great defense, but he’s quite a few wins short on overall value. That said, falling short of these guys, plus Jones and Adrian Beltre, still makes Rolen the 10th-best third baseman in history. To enter the Hall, third basemen have been held to an nearly impossible set of criteria: either (a) amass 500 homers or (b) record 3,000 hits or (c) be Brooks Robinson. Jones is just short of both (nor is he Brooks Robinson), but shouldn’t have a problem.
Of the non-Santo third basemen above, five were elected on the first ballot. As for Eddie Mathews, he had to wait four times, but mostly because, when became eligible, there were 14 other future Hall of Famers on the ballot alongside him. While the first-ballot distinction doesn’t really mean a whole lot when it comes to a player’s plaque or status, first-ballot players are generally of higher quality. There are 249 players who have been elected to the Hall of Fame. Of those, 124 were elected by the writers. Of that number, just 52 were elected on the first ballot. Rolen is being compared above to that elite group, plus Eddie Mathews plus Ron Santo. Falling short doesn’t mean he isn’t a Hall of Famer.
Let’s compare Rolen to another group of Hall of Famers, but before we do so, let’s take a quick look at the different expected offense by several defensive positions. Going back by decade, the chart below illustrates the wRC+ for first, second, and third basemen.

The top line, which denotes first basemen, demonstrates the pretty sizable gap historically between first basemen and third basemen. Over the last 60 years, the average first baseman has put up a 112 wRC+. The average third baseman? Just below average, at 99 wRC+. If you believe that third basemen generally are just slightly more mobile first basemen — and somewhere close to equal with the bat — you have been deceived. Third basemen have almost always been right around league-average hitters despite what the perception might be. Expecting anywhere near the same amount of offense from third base as first base is a setup for failure.
The second thing to notice on the graph is how much second base has improved over time. Up until the mid-80s, the gap between second base and third base was roughly the same as the gap between third base and first base. Over the last 30 years, however, that gap has been cut in half, with the average second baseman trailing behind the average third baseman by just 6 points of wRC+.
That leads to the next Rolen comparison, which is to second basemen. The chart below depicts Hall of Fame second basemen who played the bulk of their careers after World War II, compared with Scott Rolen.
| Name | HR | wRC+ | Def | WAR | Gold Gloves | First-Ballot HOF | Veteran’s Committee |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Joe Morgan | 268 | 135 | 14 | 98.8 | 4 | x | |
| Rod Carew | 92 | 132 | -35.4 | 72.3 | 0 | x | |
| Craig Biggio | 291 | 115 | -23 | 65.8 | 4 | ||
| Roberto Alomar | 210 | 118 | 15.8 | 63.6 | 10 | ||
| Ryne Sandberg | 282 | 115 | 103.9 | 60.9 | 9 | ||
| Jackie Robinson | 137 | 135 | 93.7 | 57.2 | NA | x | |
| Nellie Fox | 35 | 96 | 178.7 | 45.2 | 3 | x | |
| Red Schoendienst | 84 | 94 | 137.5 | 37.4 | NA | x | |
| Bill Mazeroski | 138 | 82 | 200.5 | 30.9 | 8 | x | |
| AVERAGE | 171 | 114 | 76 | 59 | 5 | ||
| Scott Rolen | 316 | 122 | 182 | 70.1 | 8 |
Of the players above, Carew, Fox, Mazeroski, Morgan, Robinson, and Schoendienst all played in eras that featured a pretty sizable gap between the average third baseman and the average second baseman. That makes Morgan’s offensive achievement that much more remarkable and cements his status as one of the greatest players of all time. Carew’s offense is likewise impressive, although he played more games at first base than at second. It makes the Veteran’s Committee choices of Fox and Schoendienst slightly more understandable, and it’s pretty clear that Mazeroski, whose induction might have caused the hardening of the Veteran’s Committee, was elected mostly for his defense and one really memorable home run.
Compared to the three recent inductees from second base, Scott Rolen was the superior hitter in every case. If Biggio hadn’t been chasing 3,000 hits and stopped playing at 37, his wRC+ would be closer to Rolen’s. He also might not be in the Hall of Fame, otherwise, though. As for Alomar and Sandberg, they can’t use longevity as an excuse for hitting at a lower level than Rolen during their careers. On defense, Alomar had the reputation but not the numbers, while Sandberg had both. Over at third base, Rolen’s 182 runs above average on defense are better than all the second basemen above except for Mazeroski. It’s fine not to completely trust defensive numbers, but how big of an error bar would we require to say Rolen isn’t a Hall of Fame-caliber player? If we want to discount Rolen’s defensive runs by one quarter, then he’s even with Biggio in career value. If we want to discount them by a third, then he’s even with Alomar in total value. If you want cut them half, then Rolen is even with Ryne Sandberg.
The days of the uber-light-hitting class of second basemen hasn’t been around in more than 30 years. Likewise, the days of the hulking class of third-base sluggers never really existed. That Scott Rolen didn’t hit like a Hall of Fame first baseman oughtn’t matter. That he hit and defended like one of the best third baseman should. Rolen is well above the average standard for Hall of Fame third baseman, and the mere fact that some of the greatest hitters of all time happened to play third base shouldn’t create an impossible threshold. Rolen was absolutely brilliant on defense, providing more impact than many Hall of Fame second basemen, while besting them with the bat as well. While the crowded ballot could certainly hurt Rolen, his candidacy should provide a decent test to whether the myth of the third baseman continues.
Craig Edwards can be found on twitter @craigjedwards.
I support Rolen’s bid for the hall.
I want to point out that everything that is true of Ron Santo’s bid for the hall is equally true of Ted Simmons.
He’s 9th all time in WAR at catcher and that’s only if you count Joe Torre as a catcher. Like Santo, he somehow fell off the ballot in his first year.
Google: Scott Rolen Press Conference
From the New York Times, March 24, 2002:
“Just before training camp opened last month, Rolen appeared at a news conference here at the club’s invitation to discuss his decision not to accept the $90 million/$140 million offer. When General Manager Ed Wade asked Rolen what he would say when asked why he rejected the offer, Rolen said he would say that the team’s ownership was not committed to winning. (The Phillies have consistently been in the lower half of payrolls.)
Wade objected, but that is precisely what Rolen told the Phillies last November when he rejected the offer, and that is what he said at the news conference.”
Scott Rolen’s press conference is unique in MLB history. This press conference is one of the most suppressed events in the history of the game. Every Philadelphia TV outlet (at least three local news plus Comcast Philadelphia) played the press conference that night. The following day video of this event ceased to exist. It most certainly does exist in multiple locations, but you cannot find it. Is there really a CIA file that contains the evidence that the CIA assassinated JFK? If so you might find a videotape of Scott Rolen’s press conference wrapped together with that file. You can’t even find a written transcript of Rolen’s noble act. None was ever published.
Scott Rolen’s press conference should be a video exhibit at Cooperstown. In fact, 99% of Phillies fans 20 years old and younger don’t even know this event happened.
Scott Rolen should have at least 20 WAR added to his total for this courageous act.
Interesting idea about third basemen being held to an impossible standard. I would have added hits to the spreadsheet of third basemen, if only because Molitor looks so inferior without his hits.
Its tough to gauge Molitor versus other players because he’s really only in because he got 3,000 hits and was voted on in an era when the voters still believed in “magic numbers” like that.
Of course, he’s also totally deserving of his enshrinement.
I disagree. Milwaukee gets minimized because they never win and are not on national tv. Molitor had 500 steals, which is pretty crazy, and a .369 OBP. But I’d agree that he’s not a prototypical Schmidt / Mathews 3B.
The main negative for Rolen’s case is durability, since he only has 8 seasons where he played even 130 games. He was just as good as Beltre when he was on the field, and I think he should pretty clearly be a Hall of Famer. But his relatively low counting stats, combined with underrating his defense and baserunning, could make this a tough case for the writers’ ballot.
Is there an argument against Rolen, other than “he just didn’t seem like a HOF when he played”, or “No MVPs” or “played for too many teams”? I’m not seeing one.
His counting stats are pretty poor given the high offensive era. He barely has 2000 hits, which would be the fewest of any player inducted in a LONG time, he doesn’t even have 400 HR much less 500 which is a (sort of) magic number. He doesn’t have a great peak. His value is almost entirely based on defensive metrics which we don’t completely understand are accurate.
Not saying he should go in, just that those are the arguments against him. The last one is a deal breaker for many voters.
He and Andruw Jones have similar cases though: they both were very good offensively yet were also two of the best fielders of all time at their positions.
Don’t forget about Jim Edmonds, who like Santo and Simmons also strangely fell of the ballot after only one year.
Agree with most of what you say, although Rolen’s peak was pretty damn good. If you take his top 3 bWAR’s, e.g., he does far better than Molitor’s top three, and he’s comparable with Chipper (21.6 for Rolen, 21.9 for Chipper).
I think that will be the main argument that voters will use against Rolen (i.e. he didn’t feel like a HOFer).
Of course, I suspect that many of the voters who don’t choose Rolen, will likely vote for Vizquel, even though no one thought he was a HOFer during his career either.
Part of it comes down to “likeability”, right? Vizquel was fun, and Rolen bitched about money and sulked.
Eddie Matthews is one of the very, very greatest players, let alone 3B’s, in the history of baseball, yet the only place his name normally appears is in objective lists like the one in your article.
Thank you for giving him a separate mention.
I don’t know about “very, very greatest,” but I agree that he’s very underrated, mostly because he was overshadowed by his long-time teammate Hank Aaron.
One of Scott Rolen’s problems is that he played in an era with a lot of great 3B. He played the same positions as Chipper Jones, A-Rod, Adrian Beltre, David Wright and Evan Longoria in their primes, so he was a little overshadowed at his own position.
Rolen was never the best 3B in any given year. Earlier in his career guys like Eric Chavez outperformed him for a year or two at a time. It’s not a position that fosters long careers, as David Wright’s troubles show.
YEAR fWAR MLB-RANK
2003 6.2 *1st* [1.3 ahead of Corey Koskie]
2002 6.5 *1st* [0.8 ahead of Chavez]
2004 9.0 2nd [0.7 behind Beltre]
1998 7.0 2nd [0.1 behind Jones]
2006 5.5 2nd [0.8 behind Cabrera]
2001 5.6 T-3rd [0.5 and 0.3 behind Jones and Koskie]
2000 4.6 T-3rd [well behind Glaus and Jones]
2010 4.6 4th [well behind Longoria, Zimmerman and Beltre]
…
And we can combine some years:
2002-2003, #1, 28% ahead of Koskie by fWAR
2002-2004, #1, 29% ahead of Beltre [33%]
2001-2004, #1, 32% ahead of Beltre [25%]
2000-2004, #1, 27% ahead of Chipper Jones [20%]
1999-2004, #1, 13% ahead of Chipper Jones [17%]
1998-2004, #1, 11% ahead of Chipper Jones [15%]
1998-2005, #1 but a virtual tie only 1 ahead of Jones [26%]
1998-2006, #1, 4% ahead of Chipper Jones [34%]
1997-2006, #1, 5% ahead of Chipper Jones [31%]
1997-2007, Rolen falls to #2 [37%]
1997-2008, Rolen is still #2 [40%]
1997-2009, Rolen is still #2 [43%]
1997-2010, I’ll put him as falling to third as A-Rod spent roughly 50% of his innings at 3B in this time period [50%]
The %%% in brackets are A-Rods percent of innings at third base in the time period, I suppose each person can decide which ranges A-Rod should legitimately count as a 3B
Forgetting position, 1998-2004, a 7 year window, he’s 3rd overall in fWAR in the Majors, behind only Bonds and A-Rod [though Andruw Jones only 0.4 fWAR back probably should be considered a tie for third].
1997-2006, a ten year period, he is solidly 4th behind the same three guys.
1996-2010 — 15 years, he’s essentially in a tie for 5th with Jeter; back by 0.1 fWAR though Jeter has 2500 more PA.
In 22 years since the strike he’s 7th. Last 30 years, 10th. Last 40 years, 16th. Last 50 years, 20th.
Shouldn’t George Kell be on the list of post-war 3B?
Yes he should. I didn’t scroll far enough down my list of third basemen.
He should also be on the “lowest common denominator” list with Rice, Cepeda, Schoendienst and company.
Interesting to compare Rolen with HOF second basemen. I think his best 2B comp is one whose HOF fate he may end up sharing, Bobby Grich. A ton of similarities — WAR, games played, balance of offense and defense, split their prime years among two clubs. Some folks would be surprised that Grich scores as the more valuable hitter, Rolen the more valuable glove.
Like all modern 3Bs, Rolen’s perception suffers from the fact that the top 12 3Bs in bWAR all debuted since 1952, and 18 of the 22 with 50+ bWAR. Nettles, Bell, Boyer, Bando — all WAY above the norm for HOF 3Bs who debuted before Eddie Mathews.
Agree with that big time, John A. I got to watch all those guys and I think they’re all Hall-worthy, though unless the new Veterans Committee gets a move on I probably won’t live to see it.
I watched Rolen in Philly in his prime. The reason he couldn’t stay on the field was that the field at the Vet was made of thinly-covered concrete, which ruined his back. He had the quickest first step of any 3B I ever saw, including Schmidt. Rollins never had to make a throw from the hole because Rolen cut those balls off every time. And every throw arrived at 1B chest high. But once the back went he became vulnerable to the high fastball. Murdered mediocre sliders, though.
It was a pleasure to watch him play defense. Always liked to attend when a lefty was pitching so he’d get more work.
What I’m taking from this article is that Kell somehow made the Hall, and I cannot understand it.
Quite a bit of Santo’s problem, along with the bizarre refusal of HoF voters to acknowledge third basemen, was that he played the bulk of his career on a team with three other Hall of Famers in Banks, Williams, and Jenkins. I’ve read more than one hot take (back before the term existed) essentially taking the position that Santo wasn’t worthy because the Cubs didn’t win it all, and a team with 4 HoFers should have.
Santo was on the ballot before Jenkins and Williams, so it would have to have been more like, “well Banks is already in and Billy Williams and Fergie Jenkins are obvious Hall of Famers, so four HoFers is too many for a team that didn’t win the series”.
But, was Billy Williams an obvious HoFer? He took six ballots to get in and it only takes a minor consideration of defense to conclude that Williams probably wasn’t significantly more valuable than Santo [or that Santo was better], so at the time, still not sure the argument makes much sense. Being generous and leaving out position as at the time I guess it appears to have been less obvious that 3B should have lower standards than 1B/cOF.
I wonder if the “4 HOF player” argument is an issue with Edgar Martinez and the upcoming Omar Vizquel? from 1996-1999, Seattle had Griffey, Randy Johnson, Alex Rodriguez, and Edgar Martinez. From 1989-1993 Seattle had Griffey, Johnson, Martinez, and Vizquel, and of course Seattle never won the WS. The 1994 M’s also had an aging Goose Gossage and an extremely young Alex Rodriguez. 5 HOFers and a losing record!
Looking at that list of recent HOF 2nd Basemen makes me worry about Utley’s chances to get in – no MVP’s, no GG’s, modest counting stats (though similar to Sandberg’s) due to injuries and a late-ish start. A lot of it will come down to that he “feels” like a HOFer to many writers, so maybe that is enough. I think of him as a candidate much like Rolen tho.
Interesting article Craig, but Santo was only slightly ahead of Clete Boyer, and was clearly a “big Hall” push. Compare Rolen to Graig Nettles, a third baseman who peaked at only 8.4% of the ballot and was off in only 4 years:
Rolen: 316 HR, 1287 RBI, 1211 R, 70 WAR dWAR 20.6 oWAR 52.1 Black Ink: 0, Gray Ink: 27, Best MVP finish: 4th
Nettles:390 HR, 1314 RBI 1193 R, 68 WAR dWAR 20.9 oWAR 52.3
Black Ink 4, Gray Ink 56, Best MVP finish: 5th
To me, very similar players with Rolen having the better peak, shorter career, but neither one deserving to be a HoFer (small hall guy)
Apologies, Ken Boyer, not Clete Boyer.
I looked into Nettles, but his 111 wRC+ is a decent amount lower than Rolen. The peak also matters. Nettles went over 125 wRC+ just twice in his career with a career high of 136. Rolen went over 125 eight times, and went over 136 3 times including a career high 159. Per 600 PA, Rolen was a full win ahead of Nettles. I think Nettles is one of those cases where just looking at the WAR doesn’t do enough. He was a good player, and maybe deserves more consideration than we got, but he’s a few steps behind Rolen.
Nettles wasn’t nearly as good a player overall though. He played three full seasons longer than Rolen, so its a bit disingenuous to compare their counting stats.
“than there counterparts”
*their
Scott Rolen has four big problems: (1) On the same ballot as Chipper Jones. (2) If Adrian Beltre stays healthy and pads his HOF numbers, were talking historical numbers/feats every year for the next few years – 3000/3250+ hits, 600/650+ 2B hits, 1500/1600+ runs, 1600/1700+ rbi, 5000/5500+ total bases, 450/500+ home runs, most games played at 3b, and possibly most games played at a single position. This will only remind the BBWAA what a great 3rd baseman looks like. Tim Raines was constantly undervalued due to Rickey Henderson, can see the same thing with Rolen being compared to Chipper and Adrian. (3) He might also be compared to the young crop of 3rd baseman – Kris Bryant, Manny Machado, Nolan Arenado, Josh Donaldson. (4) With such a crowded ballot, its possible he will be a one and done due to mathematical exclusion. I feel bad for saying this, but Rolens chances are very slim to none due to the factors stated above. It is a perfect storm against him.