Speculating on the Cardinals’ Potential Punishment
In the aftermath of yesterday’s shocking news that the FBI is investigating the St. Louis Cardinals for allegedly illegally accessing the Houston Astros’ computer network without authorization, many fans have begun to speculate as to what sort of penalty the Cardinals might face from Major League Baseball. MLB has already suggested that some form of punishment is forthcoming, issuing the following statement yesterday in response to the New York Times’ initial report:
Major League Baseball has been aware of and has fully cooperated with the federal investigation into the illegal breach of the Astros’ baseball operations database. Once the investigative process has been completed by federal law enforcement officials, we will evaluate the next steps and will make decisions promptly.
In particular, as others have noted, MLB’s reference to the incident as an “illegal breach” – as opposed to an “alleged” illegal breach – is especially noteworthy. MLB isn’t denying that employees of one of its teams may have illegally accessed the Astros’ computer network, nor is the league holding off judgment on the veracity of the reports until the federal investigation is complete. Instead, the league office is explicitly acknowledging that an illegal breach has occurred.
So the Cardinals are almost certainly facing some form of MLB-imposed punishment on top of any potential criminal charges the government may pursue. The question now is just what type of punishment MLB and Commissioner Manfred will seek to impose.
Given the unprecedented nature of the incident, initial speculation has ranged anywhere from a steep fine or the loss of draft picks to a potential postseason ban for the Cardinals. However, while Commissioner Manfred certainly has broad authority to govern the sport under his “best interests of baseball” powers, his authority – as NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has learned in recent years – is not absolute. Instead, MLB’s league constitution and collective bargaining agreement both impose some real constraints on the commissioner’s ability to punish the Cardinals.
Postseason Ban
One suggestion in the aftermath of the hacking scandal has been that MLB should ban the Cardinals from the playoffs for one or more years. It appears unlikely that Commissioner Manfred would have the authority to institute such a penalty, however. Not only is such a power not assigned to the office of the commissioner under the MLB Constitution, but it would also run contrary to the terms of MLB’s CBA.
Specifically, Article V, Section A of the CBA states:
Following completion of each championship season, ten Clubs shall qualify for Post-Season play: the three Division Champions in each League and the two other Clubs in each League with the highest percentage of wins in the championship season (Wild Card Clubs).
Thus, the eligibility of teams to appear in the playoffs is not a matter left simply to MLB’s discretion. Instead, the formula for playoff qualification is clearly laid out in the CBA.
This means that if MLB were to seek to impose a playoff ban on the Cardinals, the Major League Baseball Players Association would have to sign off on the punishment as well. And while we are certainly in uncharted territory here, it is hard to see the players’ union signing off on any such prohibition for several reasons.
As an initial matter, the Cardinals’ players have a financial stake in qualifying for the playoffs. As Wendy Thurm has previously explained, the CBA guarantees players on playoff teams a certain share of their franchise’s postseason revenue. Consequently, the MLBPA almost certainly would not agree to any postseason ban without MLB agreeing to compensate the Cardinals’ players for any potential lost playoff revenue they would have been in line to receive.
But even if MLB were to reimburse the Cardinals’ players, however, the union would still be unlikely to sign off on a plan that would deny some of its members an opportunity they had earned to compete for a championship. So given the restrictions imposed by the CBA, it appears quite unlikely that MLB would be able to impose a postseason ban on the Cardinals.
Loss of Draft Picks
Alternatively, MLB could potentially try to strip the Cardinals of future picks in the amateur draft. Unlike a postseason ban, Article II, Section 3(f) of the MLB Constitution specifically permits the commissioner to take away draft picks from a team that has engaged in conduct detrimental to baseball. Nevertheless, it is somewhat unclear whether MLB would actually have the power to unilaterally strip the Cardinals of its draft picks.
As with a postseason ban, the MLBPA could potentially argue that it must sign off on the Cardinals’ loss of any draft picks. Because the union has specifically agreed to the draft structure, and included rules directly relating to free agent compensatory draft picks in the CBA, the MLBPA could contend that it has a voice in the matter. Indeed, to the extent that any loss of draft picks affected the size of the Cardinals’ domestic amateur signing bonus pool, the union could assert that it has a direct vested interest in the punishment, since the penalty would reduce the amount of money flowing to potential future union members.
Whether or not a court or arbitrator would agree with the MLBPA on the issue is uncertain. While the NFL has relatively frequently stripped its teams of draft picks, this would appear to be the first time that an MLB commissioner has exercised his authority under the league constitution to do the same.
In fact, to the extent there is any prior precedent on the issue, it does not favor MLB. Back in 1976, Commissioner Bowie Kuhn tried to strip the Atlanta Braves of a draft pick for tampering with free agent Gary Matthews, only to have a court overturn the penalty because the commissioner had not yet been granted such a power under the league constitution. Now that the owners have officially given this power to the commissioner, however, it is unclear how a court or arbitrator would respond.
Of course, it is also possible that the MLBPA would not object to the Cardinals losing some future draft picks, especially if the punishment did not affect the amount of money that the team could spend on its remaining picks. At the same time, though, allowing the franchise to retain its full bonus pool would certainly reduce some of the sting of the punishment. But if MLB did try to reduce the Cardinals’ bonus pool in addition to stripping the team of its draft picks, then the union might very well contest the penalty.
All in all, then, it is uncertain whether Commissioner Manfred would actually be able to take away any of the Cardinals’ future draft picks should he choose to go that route.
Edit: As some commenters have noted, one possible compromise here would be for MLB to strip St. Louis of several draft picks, with any of the team’s lost bonus pool money being reallocated and split among the other 29 teams. This would likely address most of the MLBPA’s potential concerns. Ultimately, though, it would still require some negotiations between MLB and the union; Commissioner Manfred could not unilaterally impose such a penalty on his own.
Suspension of the Employees Involved
Another potential penalty arising out of the hacking scandal would be for MLB to suspend any Cardinal employee involved in the incident from working in professional baseball, on either a temporary or permanent basis; I think it’s fair to assume the individual(s) will be fired by the Cardinals, but MLB could restrict another team from hiring them as well. Along these lines, Article II, Section 3(c) of the MLB Constitution grants the commissioner the power to suspend or remove any employee of an MLB team who has engaged in conduct that was not in the best interest of baseball.
Assuming that no Cardinals players were involved in the hacking – although what a bombshell that would be! – these suspensions would not implicate the CBA, and therefore not require the signoff of the MLBPA.
If MLB were to suspend some of the Cardinals’ employees from baseball, it is always possible that the affected individuals could sue the league for some sort of unlawful collusion. Ordinarily, an agreement by all of the competitors in an industry not to hire a particular employee would violate the nation’s antitrust laws. MLB, however, has an antitrust exemption, so any such case would likely have slim odds of success.
Therefore, it is quite likely that any Cardinal employee involved in the hacking – and especially those in the lower-levels of the organization – could be facing a suspension from baseball.
Monetary Fine
Finally, perhaps the most likely penalty for the Cardinals is some sort of monetary fine. Once again, however, the MLB Constitution imposes a significant limitation on Commissioner Manfred’s ability to punish the Cardinals in this regard. Under Article II, Section 3(f) of the league constitution, the commissioner cannot fine an MLB team more than $2 million for any single offense.
Of course, should it turn out that Cardinals employees accessed the Astros’ computers on more than one occasion, then MLB could assert that each separate incident should trigger a separate $2 million fine. Alternatively, it is always possible that the rest of the MLB clubs would be willing to make an exception to the normal rule in this case due to the severity of the allegations.
But otherwise, unless the MLB Constitution has been amended in recent years to allow the commissioner to impose a much higher fine on one of the league’s franchises, it appears unlikely that MLB will be able to assess the Cardinals a truly significant monetary penalty – something on the order of tens of millions of dollars – in this case.
Nathaniel Grow is an Associate Professor of Business Law and Ethics and the Yormark Family Director of the Sports Industry Workshop at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business. He is the author of Baseball on Trial: The Origin of Baseball's Antitrust Exemption, as well as a number of sports-related law review articles. You can follow him on Twitter @NathanielGrow. The views expressed are solely those of the author and do not express the views or opinions of Indiana University.
Clearly the punishment must consist of one or all of the following:
1. Strip them of all their titles since inception.
2. Have them forfeit all games this season and ban them from competition for the next 5 seasons.
3. Throw David Eckstein in prison for the rest of his life.
But there are hundreds of unsolved hackings in MLB!
You just don’t know when to keep your mouth shut, do ya Ecksy boy?
Zip it boy, or we will get David Freese to join you in there.
I feel it is entirely reasonable to force the Cards to play in the AFC East this fall, while the Patriots join the NL Central next spring.
Tom Brady was drafted by the Expos, I’m sure he’d probably be good at baseball too.
Pretty hard to deflate baseball though.
Gee, I thought that being drafted by the Expos was often a sign that someone wasn’t all that good at baseball.
Montreal Expo draft picks/amateur free agents: Andre Dawson, Vladimir Guerrero, Andres Galarraga, Larry Walker, Gary Carter, Brandon Phillips, Randy Johnson, Ian Desmond, Grady Sizemore, Marquis Grissom, Delino DeShields, Steve Rogers, Tom Brady (wrong sport, but still…), Cliff Floyd, Rondell White, Charles Johnson, Pete Incaviglia, Norm Charlton, Terry Francona, Tim Wallach, Bill Gullickson, Condredge Holloway (wrong sport, but still….), Milton Bradley (focussing on the talent here), John Vander Wal, Javi Vazquez, Jose Vidro, Phil Garner
Then what happens if the Cardinals play the Cardinals?
The Houston Chronicle is reporting that what was hacked was posted online in July, 2014 when the event occurred. Depending on intent, there may be no actual ‘crime’ beyond civil remedies.
It is clearly illegal, regardless of the ultimate intent.
Well, that’s disappointing. The first two are what everybody hopes for, and the second two — who cares? Could the Commissioner force the team to change its name to the St. Louis Assclowns or something? That’d do.
Most severe punishment: make the entire organization drink beer from st louis. *shudders*
Not a bad thought, but need to be more specific since there are also beers that don’t suck made in St. Louis.
I believe a forced renaming without the Houston organization being allowed to design the logos and branding seems appropriate.
Sorry, that should be “…WITH the Houston organization being allowed to design the logos and branding…”
Dude – Schlafly? Six Row? 4 Hands? Urban Chestnut? Sure, there’s Bud, but there’s some awesome beer from St. Louis.
if you mean A-B stuff, yucky. 4Hands, Shlafly, UrbanChestnut or 6Row on the other hand I could enjoy all day
How about switching their history with the St.Louis Browns, now that would be something
Make them play as the St Louis Spiders for a year. #1899NeverForget
Spend months griping about air in a football,followed by this,the Cards and Pats seem to draw lot of haters out there.Winners,win,losers hate.Enjoy the great NBA finals,and three cheers for the Blackhawks.Thats what real fans care about.
Nailed it*
*sarcasm font
Speaking of assclowns….
*FART NOISE*
You know when you meet a REAL fan, because they will tell you so
Cheaters cheat, hackers hack
Somehow, I suspect you also think real Americans should vote Trump.
So how about those San Francisco Giants!
Shut your mouth when you’re talking to me!
I don’t really think MLB would try to get a postseason ban in this case, but I’m not quite understanding why MLBPA would be so opposed. As the entity that represents all players it’s pretty zero sum, since the Cardinals players miss out on competing for a championship and postseason shares, but another team’s players that previously wouldn’t have had that chance now have that opportunity.
I don’t understand how so many think a playoff ban is so good. The Cardinals wouldn’t have to compete for one year. Play Yadier Molina only 100 or 80 games at catcher. Save his knees for when it counts. If Holliday goes on the dl, let him stay another week to make 110% certain he’s ok. Maybe they decide to limit pitches more. Maybe they decide to limit innings pitched more. This is all bad for the game. But if my team has a playoff ban, I take it easy on my players for a year. Oh, and yes, this effects player bonuses possibly. And you’d have that fight. And if the Cubs get the #6 starter because Wacha took a turn off….The Pirates cry foul. THERE WILL BE NO PLAYOFF BAN!!!
Not to mention a playoff ban to the best team in baseball makes people care less about who won, because they didn’t have to beat the best (or the team that knocked off the best to get there). Definite asterisk on whoever wins. Also it would be punishing the players more than anyone, and it’s pretty unlikely they had anything to do with it or even knew the team had anything to do with it.
That might make sense to you, but consider the fact that the penalty won’t come till after the current season.
Why after the current season? Manfred and MLB want this over as quickly as possible with no bans related to the players. Firing(s)and fines IMO.
Even if you enact it next year, it’s still unfair to the Cardinals’ players, plus it would allow the Cardinals to simply sit out of the free agent market this offseason and fill their holes with AAA call-ups. (Even then they’ll likely finish with a winning record considering how few holes they’ll once again have this offseason. Grichuk and Piscotty take over RF for Heyward, Adams returns at 1B while Scruggs fills Reynolds’s role, the return of Wainwright and a combination of Gonzalez, Lyons, and Cooney take over for Lackey and Garcia in the rotation and Villanueva as the long reliever, Greenwood replaces Choate as the LOOGY, and a combination of Harris, Scolovich, and Tuivailala replace Belisle and continue to provide general bullpen depth.)
I’m sure some of the Cards players have postseason bonuses in their contracts. That is why the CPA clearly establishes who will make the playoffs. The union is pretty shitty if it throws a couple of players bonuses out the window because of what some executives did…
A postseason ban makes the pennant race a mockery. It would not only hurt the Cards but arguably the entire league. Cut off one’s nose to spite one’s face, if you will.
On the college sports level this punishment is more feasible. Lots of the fans are alumni that want to see their team play and beat their rivals, regardless if they cannot go to a bowl game or postseason tournament. Plus, technically, the athletes are there for an education which they get anyway. (Don’t laugh. Or at least don’t laugh too hard.) With a professional sports team the dynamic is not the same. It’s like telling the fans before the season that their team will finish last regardless of what they do. Attendance? What attendance? The economic pain would be severe and the mockery of the pointless games would be unending.
If MLB were to really bring down the hammer, they would force the Cardinals owners to sell. Frankly, I think the MLB would sooner consider expelling the Cardinals from the league and replacing them than a postseason ban. (Not that the MLB would seriously consider either in this case.)
A union is for ALL the folks in the collective bargaining group, not just for some….bet you belong to the millennial generation.
This will never happen, the league could never sell punishing players for the misdeeds of the front office. I think the only way you see a team post season ban, is if its a blacksox situation with, players, owners, and manager involved. They won’t ever target the players like that for things the players had nothing to do with. I mean how many of them choose STL as FA and how many don’t even have a choice.
My guess is something like $2 million and the first pick for the next 2 years, but I won’t be surprised at more.
As far as the bonus dollar issue is concerned, I would think that redistributing the lost draft pool dollars to the other 29 teams should satisfy the MLBPA to drop any potential challenge.
They should get removed from the “small market” group forever – which they should have never been a part of anyway when absolutely nothing they do from an operational standpoint is small market. A’s and Rays are small market. The Cardinals are no different to the big boys, they drop $100M on free agents.
But isn’t St. Louis just as small of a market.
Doesn’t the ability to spend $100M on free agents (when have they?) reflect on success, not market size?
I don’t think the Cardinals are “no different” than the big boys. If the good run stops, and the attendance/viewership approaches something closer to what the size of St. Louis would suggest, then what? you add the picks back? There’s a reason they went on market size rather than revenue or anything else based on success.
Why should Oakland be considered a small market?
The real small market teams are KC, Milwaukee, Tampa, Pittsburgh.
OK– but MLb includes more than four teams, so room for others. These are the teams that got competitive balance picks this year:
Athletics, Brewers, Cardinals, D-backs, Indians, Marlins, Orioles, Padres, Pirates, Rays, Reds, Rockies and Royals
So the four you listed and still eight more…
If you only count the territory that MLB officially allocates it–as opposed to the places they can’t build a stadium because the Giants control them–Oakland is probably a small market.
Eric R, the Pirates didn’t receive a competitive balance pick this year.
Complete list of free agents receiving $100M+ contracts from the Cardinals: Matt Holliday.
First Pujols deal. Not a FA but c’mon. And heck no the Cards don’t need a competitive balance pick. They are no small market team.
You specified free agents. But OK, complete list of players signing $100M contracts with the Cardinals: Pujols, Holliday, Wainwright.
They’re in the bottom 10 in market size. So they’re a small market. Not sure what’s so confusing about that
Yes, but market size doesn’t necessarily mean a competitive disadvantage, which is the whole point of these bonus picks. Even as a Cardinals fan, I find it ridiculous that we’re eligible for competitive balance picks. Never mind the fact that we’ve had one losing record in the last 15 years, we routinely post attendance figures near the top of the league even during the rare losing seasons like 2007 and haven’t finished in the lower half of league attendance since 1994, while our payroll consistently remains firmly in the upper middle class. Why would we need any help remaining competitive?
They’re probably in the top 3 of market share within their market, though.
they’re likely to look at examples of corporate espionage punishments elsewhere in American jurisprudence for guidance as well, though. we really need a corporate attorney to give us some comps. in any case, the FBI likely has evidence of multiple infractions, which will lead to a much larger fine.
i can imagine the other 29 teams wanting to crucify the Cardinals over this in order to get others to police their people better. the clubs cannot want to spend millions hardening their IT systems, so better to make a truly fearsome example here as precedent.
maybe exclude them from the draft for three to five years? and redistribute their pool money to the other 29 to keep MLBPA happy?
Yeah, I think the FBI and US Attorneys Office is going to do the heavy lifting here. The MLB’s options are limited, but the USAO can and will hit the Cards with a heft fine. I don’t know of any corporate hacking settlements, but in other circumstances, like violations of antitrust law, foreign bribery (FCPA), or securities laws, you often see settlements in the tens or hundreds of millions with an agreement that future violations will be prosecuted without an opportunity for settlement.
Yeah, I think the FBI and US Attorneys Office is going to do the heavy lifting here. The MLB’s options are limited, but the USAO can and will hit the Cards with a heft fine. I don’t know of any corporate hacking settlements, but in other circumstances, like violations of antitrust law, foreign bribery (FCPA), or securities laws, you often see settlements in the tens or hundreds of millions with an agreement that future violations will be prosecuted without an opportunity for settlement.
There is also the possibility that the USAO and MLB determine that the employee(s) went rogue and are personally liable but the Cards as an entity are blameless. This would depend on the level of knowledge within the executives and owners of the organization. I don’t recall seeing anything that says definitively whether the FBI or MLB has come to that conclusion yet.
I would guess that the DOJ has enough perspective to know that this isn’t about financial fraud on the national markets, bribery of foreign governments, or anti-competitive conduct that hurts nationwide consumers and market participants.
It’s about some baseball nerds who worked for one team looking through the scouting reports and baseball info of another team’s baseball nerds without authorization.
Comparison between this situation and actual major settlements pursued by the DOJ is a bit bizarre.
No one went rogue. Some in the org knew, and rich people hate jail (FIFA as an example) so once they get a VP to flip the rest will fall.
You know this how, pbmax? Do you have some kind of special connections with the FBI? Last I checked, people in this country are innocent until proven guilty.
Yeah I don’t see why the MLBPA would have an issue with docking them draft picks. Just raise other slot values by the amount that is being stripped from the Cards and net value going to amateurs stays the same. Then everyone (Except St. Louis) should be happy.
Good point, if MLB were willing to redistribute the Cardinals’ lost bonus pool dollars to the other teams, then the MLBPA would likely sign off on any lost draft picks.
MLB wouldn’t have to “redistribute” the pool money, the draft slotting itself would take care of this. It’s not like one draft pick disappears, it just ends up in the hands of the next team down the list.
If I’m the Astros, I’m pushing for some of the (potential) stripped draft picks to be awarded to me. They were the ones harmed by the hacking, they have a legitimate claim to be compensated.
I hear you on that. I love competitive balance.
There have been hundreds of fines and suspensions in MLB for teams that do direct harm to other teams (hitting batters on purpose), and none of those teams have been compensated. So why start now?
Also, Houston was pretty stupid, not saying we should blame the victim, but yes, I’m blaming the victim.
It’s true they were stupid. If it weren’t for their handling of their draft signings last year I think people might feel worse for them. But all the releases did was add to how people felt about how the franchise is run.
It doesn’t matter what the password was, the Cardinals had no business loging in. It doesn’t matter the Astros start Colby Rasmus, the Cardinals have no business striking him out. It doesn’t matter that there is a ramp in center field, the Cardnals have no business playing around on it. #stopvictimblaming
I get your analogy.
But as a practical matter using the same password in your new company that you used at your old company after you advertised your password in the old company is just stupid. From an IT security perspective this is roughly equivalent of going into a high crime area waving around big wads of cash in the middle of the night. Yeah, sure, you shouldn’t have to worry about getting robbed because robbery is illegal, but as a practical matter you will probably get robbed and much more likely to get robbed than if you kept a low profile.
@ Paul G.
As a former tech guy myself, I totally understand your point about the extent of Ludnow’s stupidity here. But that’s the not issue. The issue is, if we use your example, what happens when the guy who robbed you of the cash you were parading in a high-crime neighborhood is caught by the police? Can the guy use the “What I can do judge? The guy was showing off all that cash in the middle of the night. How can I NOT steal that money?”
If the Astros deserves to be hacked because they didn’t protect their system enough, the Cardinals also deserves to be punished for being stupid enough to get caught. In this story, both teams are stupid and deserves to be punished. The Astros took their beating through PR and presumably negotiations in the future. The Cardinals should get their turn now.
@baubo: Oh, I totally agree. A stupid victim is still a victim. It excuses nothing for the Cardinals. But the matter of the fact is the Astros made it pretty darn easy to be the victim. If we lived in a world where everyone followed the law that would not be an issue, but such world does not exist and it is prudent to defend against such violations.
Hacking the Astros’ computer system is a crime.
Making it so freaking easy for your computer system to be hacked is stupid and the sort of thing that usually gets people fired.
The issue is were they competitively disadvantaged? OK, show me the evidence. What trade did the Cards do that this information helped them do? Where did they undercut the Astros on a pending trade or contract offer? The harm wasn’t competitive disadvantage, it was embarrassing Luhnow…that’s it. What is the compensation for that? Draft picks awarded to them seems to be an unfair advantage that I don’t expect any of the other teams in the league to agree to. The Astros were not competitively harmed, so why would the Angels say: Sure give them some extra picks.
I think it is pretty widely accepted in terms of corporate espionage that the victim doesn’t have to show specific examples of material harm. The fact is that both teams operate in the same competitive space when it comes to free agent signings, trades, draft decisions, contract negotiations, etc. I don’t see a reasonable argument to be made that one team having access to another’s internal valuations and strategy doesn’t constitute an advantage. That is why it is a federal crime to intentionally access a protected computer without authorization regardless of what you do with the information you gain.The access is the crime.
I’ll agree that the MLB side of the punishment may end up being relatively light (relevant to what many here are suggesting which seem largely aimed at hurting the players and ability to perform on the field). The punishment from the feds could be much more painful though.
I agree with you that in terms of both “hacking” and corporate espionage there is clear violations. In terms of “Competitive advantage”…I don’t see much.
You’re looking at this in a vaccuum. The damages can be done later because the Cards were using the Astro’s proprietary information to benefit their club. Also, any information that was made public could be used by any team, thus, you could have the Phillies using Astros methods and measurements to benefit themselves which is harm done.
If the Cardinals had sent the Astros an email that said “Bro, you’re valuing Bud Norris too highly”, should they get a Congressional Medal of Honor?
During the draft, the Cardinals may have known how the Astros valued certain players. If you have ever been in any kind of player draft, I am sure you know how useful it would be to know that your ‘secret’ player that you are saving for later rounds is actually known to other teams.
Esp. since the Astros have a former employee at the helm, they may not know how much information he took with him. I would be surprised if that was not part of the goal for the fishing expedition.
Why not just take the Cardinals’ picks (choose your own severity) and just give them and the pool money to Houston? Seems like that would solve any loss of compensation to the PA and also function as something similar to justice.
(I realize that this probably wouldn’t fly for the other teams, but it seems like a nice simple solution.)
delete the picks, and just allocate the money to the whole draft
Yeah, I don’t understand why a reallocation of the Cardinal’s bonus pool to the other non-cheating wasn’t mentioned in the article. That seems like it would be an easy enough loophole for that to have no impact on the MLBPA.
Yeah, I should have added it to the original post. It’s in there now.
MLB wouldn’t even have to do anything to “reallocate” the bonus pool money. It would happen organically as the draft slots the Cardinals would lose are handed over to other teams.
Yes but how does that positively impact my favorite team???
I’m thinking the best solution is to award the Pirates Michael Wacha.
Nah…maybe Kolten Wong.
It seems to me that the Astros should get compensatory picks as if they lost a free agent to the Cards, they should be awarded the bonus pools for such picks and the first round (not including supplementary picks) should get the Cards total pool that was taken from them as punishment. So if they lost $6 million of their pool due to losing their first three picks, then everyone else in the first round would get $206,896 added to their first round values.
While I have no idea what’s permitted and what’s not — with respect to draft picks: if a court forbid the stripping of picks because it wasn’t expressly permitted in the constitution at the time, and MLB now expressly permits it, that would seem to favor permitting the stripping of draft picks no?
the question (and he says this) is whether MLBPA approval is needed
If the league wants to take draft picks away without MLBPA signoff, I think it works like this:
–Cards lose first 29 picks
–Each of other 29 teams get an extra pick simply by cycling through the 29 teams 30 times instead of 29
–Other teams’ bonus pools raised commensurate amount
So you end up with the same number of players drafted, and the same amount of money available to be spent… just none of it by the Cardinals.
that is stupid. You take away X picks (1-3), the money is diverted to the rest of the draft, and the amount of players drafted is only 1-3 fewer.
Son, I’m not telling you if it’s smart or stupid. I’m telling you how to keep the union out of it. The same number of players would need to be drafted.
You and Fredbird can run along.
There is no way the union cares if the same bonus money is there. They really won’t care that much either way. Your idea is asinine.
Boy, I’m telling you it’s stupid.
Wasn’t Manfred a key player in finagling a way to give the commissioner almost unlimited power to “protect the integrity of the game” during the steroid years? I’m interested to see how this plays out, but I wouldn’t find it shocking if we really see the hammer come down here.
The Cards are one of the premier franchises, Manfred wants this to go away ASAP. I doubt he does much more than the 2 mil fine. If it was the Marlins though…
Though I would be in full support of a postseason ban, we know it’s not going to happen. But the punishment has to be pretty severe, otherwise Manfred would basically be telling the rest of the league that corporate espionage is OK (which a $2m fine and a lost pick or two would do). I think a more realistic punishment could be something along the lines of:
Forfeiture of 9 draft picks (Rounds 1-3 for the next 3 years, including the bonus pool dollars).
Forfeiture of all international signing dollars for 2 years.
Forfeiture of all competitive balance picks for 5 years (after which I guess we could reinstate them, though their inclusion is a farce anyway).
Forfeiture of all revenue sharing dollars for 2 years.
Lifetime ban for all staff/execs known to be involved and/or obstructing the investigation.
this sounds in line with what i’m thinking too. MLB should make a death-penalty-type statement here if it wants to keep the IT floodgates closed.
but we shouldn’t underestimate the collegiality of MLB. these guys all know each other. it’s an old boys club. i think the punishment will be limited, even if MLB comes to regret that deeply in coming years.
isn’t there a middle ground? Impose a penalty, not as harsh as suggested, to punish and deter even though it might not have had any front office involvement, and then collectively agree to a harsher punishment for the future. That harsher punishment can be imposed without regard to the lack of notice or the “rogue” nature of the Cardinals infraction.
I don’t think what I listed above is overly harsh. Overly harsh would be something that cripples the organization’s competitiveness indefinitely (like postseason bans and 9 figure fines might do).
I do think you’re right about the country clubbiness of MLB – it doesn’t seem particularly likely that anyone gets hammered for this (or anything else) by the league office.
It depends. If the investigation finds that this was just the work of one or two rogue low-level employees, then your suggested punishment is too harsh.
But if this was an organization-wide deal and the higher level people knew about it, then I agree with the level of punishment.
I bet we find out that it was just some random idiot who gets thrown under the bus for the whole ordeal.
I’d bet that either way some random dude gets thrown under the bus, even if Moz told him to do it 100 times. All the execs have lawyered up and none of them are dumb enough to go down for this.
There’s going to be a lot of butt hurt when MLB gives the Cardinals a slap on the wrist fine and nothing else.
Post season bans and taking draft picks and bonus pool money is humorous though.
“If you can’t beat them call the FBI” is what I always say.
Regarding the loss of draft picks and bonus pool money, I don’t see why the union would have a problem with the league taking picks and bonus pool money away from the Cardinals if the total amount of bonus pool money for all teams remained constant. It would be pretty easy to take away the Cardinal’s first round pick, move every other pick up a slot, and give the Cardinals the last pick in the 10th round (the last slot that counts for bonus pools, if I recall correctly). MLB would need to get the MLBPA to sign-off on any punishment, but it seems like a workable solution.
you could just have the Cardinals 11th round pick be the last pick for slot reasons
There’s no reason to give the Cardinals the last pick of the 10th round or use some other such mechanism to equal things out. The draft pools themselves are used to dampen slaries given to draft picks, so the MLBPA has no worries about losing of few of those picks that are subject to limits.
just to clarify this: “MLB isn’t denying that employees of one of its teams may have illegally accessed the Astros’ computer network”
MLB is not saying that. they are saying that an illegal breach occurred, not that it was done by one of its teams. It is difficult to doubt the fact that an illegal breach occurred by someone, but the FBI is investigating who that someone is.
Maybe the league should stop giving them competitive balance lottery picks every year?
The truly sad thing is that this is going to serve as a precedent in a culture that is rapidly realizing that there is no privacy in the digital age. This should be met with a stern response to deter future criminals from engaging in this behavior, but more likely we will see more cronyism that leads to no real consequences for anyone of merit within the organization. Meanwhile, one to two bit players, or more likely unpaid interns, become demonized before serving the balance of any sort of “punishment.”
This response will of course lead to more of these incidents in the future, whereupon, the next violator, most likely not a team that is so close to MLB’s overlords will receive a very real punishment. People in these modern times have gotten entirely too comfortable with ILLEGAL invasions of privacy, which is great for big business. Outrage has diminishing returns. Soon we will be living in a society where these invasions are just a way of life and a lucrative career option.
This is the path we go down when we turn a blind eye to government intrusion in privacy or when folks have no problem giving large multinational corporations a view into their lives via Facebook or Playstation or whatever other vessels are being used to pry into the lives of ordinary people. MLB has a chance to take a stand against this rising tide of amorality. The Cardinals sit at the head of the table in this sport so it’s unlikely anything real will happen, but this is MLB’s only chance to contain this thing. Stay tuned.
Remember that the Cardinals are under investigation by the FBI as well. The worst that MLB can throw at them is a cakewalk compared to what the FBI can do.
Give the man a cigar! The notion that MLB needs to do anything to thwart this type of conduct in the future is specious. If the alleged perps go to prison, that alone should give folks pause before committing such acts in the future. And if that doesn’t, why would MLB expect that being banned from baseball or forfeiting your employer’s pick would do the trick?
That is nonsense, you can go to jail for steroids too, but it is still completely in the jurisdiction of sports leagues to punish these behaviors to prevent further instances. MLB has an obligation to put its foot down on cyber-spying before it happens again.
Exactly.
If you’re a parent, don’t you evaluate your punishment based in part on what the OTHER parent has already done? The kid comes home past curfew, and mom grounds him for two weeks and takes away Internet for a month. Woa! I don’t pile on.
MLB is not going to pile on if the FBI throws people in jail and imposes a sobering fine! But if the FBI limits its scope to the low-level perpetrators, MLB may add something.
But if the FBI is lenient, then MLB has to do something… if you don’t want the Astros to take justice into their own hands. (I mean, they are from Texas…) It may be an old-boys’ club, but one of the old boys, the Astros, was a victim.
Astros Jeff Luhnow should be punished too for being stupid enough to use the same set of passwords he previously used when working for the Cardinals.
and for stealing the Cardinals’ IP! (as long as we don’t have solid facts, let’s speculate about this too!)
While we’re at it, let’s blame victims of sexual assault for wearing skimpy clothing.
You take that back, meanie!
Maybe not punished but it should definitely be considered. I think it’s common knowledge to change your passwords if someone has access to them and you no longer would like them to have that same access.
From the legal side I’m not sure how much it has to be considered. It may be common knowledge, but that doesn’t mitigate the crime. It’s common knowledge that I should lock my car door, but if I don’t and you steal it, you aren’t going to be found any less guilty.
How did the Cardinals even know his passwords? You aren’t supposed to store a list of passwords to compare against. You store a salted hash of the passwords. When someone tries to login, you take a salted hash of the password they give and check it against the salted hash in your database. If the Cardinals had his passwords, then they had bad security practices as well.
Or they found the sticky notes on his monitor…
How would we know if it was Luhnow’s passwords? To my knowledge, that was never reported anywhere.
The punishment should be making the team playing in ugly uniforms that resemble Christmas sweaters for the next 3 years.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91Zr-U9EqqL._SY355_.jpg
make them play a game against the St Louis Rams
a football game that is
Oh, great, so now you just want to add more losses to the Rams’ record, too? What did they ever do to you?
What are the chances of forcing the Cardinals to sell the franchise? If this was executive-level direction to break into the Astros’ database – executive-directed corporate espionage – why not force the team to sell? It would be the ultimate deterrent to this happening again.
Baseball executives and baseball owners are not the same people.
The temptation to use the punishment as way to extract money from the players is going to be very strong. The NFL already has done similar things with its punishments, using disciplinary procedures to help team extract themselves from disadvantageous contracts in the cases of Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson (NFL contracts aren’t guaranteed but bad contracts still have cap implications even if they’re expunged) or to punish union activists as they did with Scott Fujita in the bountygate case. Even in the Deflategate case, the primary person punished with Tom Brady (on scant evidence), who you might remember was a lead plaintiff in the player’s lawsuit during the lockout.
Hopefully Manfred is able to work with the union to find an appropriate punishment, rather than cynically employing it as a way to advance the cause of the owners versus the players as other leagues might do. The MLBPA is much savvier than the weak players unions in the other major sports so he may not have an alternative.
If there are no on field consequences, it is completely empty. At a minimum, they need to lose some draft picks for several years.
The biggest financial punishment received will the monetary amount the Cardinals will have to pay the Astros once they sue them in civil court.
Cardinals submit list of x number of players to protect. Approximately 10. The Astros then select which Cardinals player not on the excluded list they select. No postseason ban, no draft pick loss.
Why would the league give the Astros a leg up on the rest of the league?
I think you’ve mistaken this blog for your journal documenting your latest season of MLB the Show.
LOL. I love how everyone is trying to one up one another trying to hurt the Cardinals more and more. This was low level employees going rogue. There was no competitive advantage gained. These idiots posted it out to Anonbin. This is a prank and will be treated like one. Fines, suspensions, employees fired, end of story. I know that makes everyone who hates the Cardinals sad but without proof of high level Cardinals executives involved and some type of competitive advantage gained, the punishment will amount to probation not the life in prison or death sentence the haters want so badly. The moral justifications being used here are hilarious in their false piety.
Yeah, just keep on thinking that everyone wants to hate the Cardinals because we’re all jealous or something. That’s definitely it.
If only MLB had the NCAA’s “lack of institutional control” language…
Should be fun to watch the denialist Cards fans’ dreams shattered…
Yes, “if only…” You reveal your desire for vengeance. I don’t doubt that you want the Cardinals punished. I seriously doubt your reasons and justifications.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
Incidentally, the phrase “the moral justifications being used here are hilarious in their false piety” could often be applied to the overall Cardinals fanbase (if not the St. Louis sports media and team organization itself) regarding its superiority complex.
The Cardinals Way has had its meaning perverted by those outside the STL fanbase and media. Those inside realize that it is nothing more than an instructional manual developed by the legendary George Kissel for the teaching of the game. The moral “meaning” has only been attached by those looking to demean an organization that they can’t win against on a regular basis. There is no superiority complex just superior baseball. Seems like most of the “suggestions” here are wishful thinking from fans of teams that can’t beat the Cardinals on the field or in the front office.
I lived in St. Louis for the last 14 years, I promise you I’ve heard all of this.
In your own comment above, you could’ve said “There is no superiority complex” without having to add “just superior baseball.” Reminding people how much better the Cardinals are is what makes outsiders think there is a superiority complex. It would be much better if people would be comfortable with the fact that outsiders know the Cardinals play great baseball without being afraid that the team (and somehow the fans by extension) aren’t getting enough credit for it.
Also, the fanbase and media both use the term “BFIB” un-ironically on a regular basis and you have to recognize how insufferable that is to others. A decent portion of Bernie’s pieces begins with a phrase similar to “Good afternoon to the BFIB…”
LOL, we are superior baseball, but we don’t have a superiority complex.
It always amazes me how Cardinal fans just can’t understand why they make everybody ill.
PS, in the last 3 decades, the Cardinals have won the same number of championships as the Marlins and the Blue Jays. Superior they are not.
Florida Ron – Superior baseball is winning nearly every year. In the last 20 years the Cardinals are top 5 in wins, playoff wins, playoff games, and division titles. If that is not superior baseball then I don’t know what is. They may not win the World Series but they are in the playoffs most years. How many playoff appearances have Marlins and Blue Jays had over that same time period? How many losing records? The latter is greater than the former. I have been a Cardinals fan since the 1970’s. I know bad baseball and superior baseball. The last 20 years have been the golden era of Cardinals baseball and I appreciate the superior baseball I’ve seen and understand that it will inevitably end. What I see on this comment board is jealousy and hope that someone else can do what most other baseball teams have not been able to do lately, which is beat the Cardinals.
There almost certainly is some jealousy. However, there is also annoyance from people who are tired of fans of winning teams repeatedly spouting off about how good the teams are and calling anyone who doesn’t like it jealous.
Let’s say I have a coworker who shows up at the office every day and says “Life is good, I make $300,000.” After weeks/months/years of that, I will resent the hell out of that coworker. When I finally say something to him, is he correct to say I’m only jealous that I don’t make $300k, or am I correct to say he’s being insufferable?
That’s what a lot of St. Louis fans end up sounding like when they start talking about their winning tradition.
Classic dismissive logic. So, those in charge of a business aren’t responsible for the actions of their employees within the context of said business?
You are presuming that they were acting within the context of said business.
Did that sound more acerbic in your head?
Since, in this case there was a clear team that the crime was committed against, wouldn’t it make sense for the Astros to just get some of the Cards draft picks? Union wouldn’t care, since the total draft picks and pools aren’t changing. So maybe the Astros get the Cards first four picks in next year’s draft or their 1st round pick the next 2 years, something like that? Makes sense to me.
Setting aside whether the union cares, and i can think of some reasons why it would, would the owners of the Rangers really want to see the Astros given an advantage?
The ultimate indignity would be to force the Cardinals to move to the AL West, and slot the Astros back into the NL Central.
Last I checked, the NL Central is the best division in baseball (best record in baseball and both NL Wildcards)…so….um…
My point being that of all the possible punishments, the most long-lasting would be to force the Cards out of the league that they built. And, yeah, return the Astros to our rightful home.
The NL West?
If the investigation reveals that the employees did this on their own, then MLB will have a hard time having punishments stick…All the cardinals will have to do is file a lawsuit. I agree with a form of severe punishment is warranted if the higher ups new about these activities. And the punishment should be delt out. Some of the suggestions made are rediculous like banning postseason play, loss of all draft picks for 3 or more years. Ban all those found to have knowledge indefinately from baseball, loss of 1st and 2nd pick for 2 years, and no competitive picks for 2 years as well, Draft money associated with those pics gets redistributed. The person that suggested each team gets an extra pic is not really feasible…Teams not involved in this should not be given anything since they were not victims.
I think this might be the most severe penalty in sports history. Because they absolutely have to set a precedent here. A post season ban won’t happen, but you can bet when the Cards reach the post season this year, and they likely will, a cheaters chant will emerge on the road a few times.
But the forfeiture of draft picks and int’l FA signings? That is more than possible. a $10M fine? quite plausible. And that’s in addition to any fines/penalties the Federal Government assesses.
I’m thinking the Cardinal’s FO and ownership are more than a little worried right now.
One year’s loss of picks and signings won’t sink them. It will make them work harder to find gems in the later rounds and do FA signings after the draft. I’m of the mind more and more as I think of it to just say award those picks to the wronged party, Houston. The MLBPA would likely not block that in any way. In fact, I’d make the fine equal to the signing bonuses of the forfeited picks and the Cardinal’s int’l signing pool money for 2016.
IMO that is about as fair as it gets.
But I’m open to the name change to St. Louis Ass Clowns.
While I must admit I am a bit of a Cardinals homer and also that I am not a lawyer, I am disappointed at how sadist and reactionary the response by the baseball community has been to this news.
For example this article is exploring the ways the Cardinals organization as a whole can be punished for this transgression, however, a much more pertinent question would be “In which scenarios would the Cardinals franchise have or lack plausible deniability?”.
I think this is a more pertinent question because currently due process is still being carried out and specific information surrendering the hacking is incredibly scarce and limited to a single news article citing anonymous sources.
This is not to say that a criminal act by an employee of the Cardinals did not take place; it just seems to me that details such as who committed this criminal act, what motivation they had, how much proprietary information was accessed, what is the monetary value of this information, was this information used for a competitive advantage, to what extent did this cause actual harm, etc. are necessary before we start casting judgement on the entire franchise. I understand that the NYT article offered insight on some of these things but in the past I have noticed that federal investigation exposes from anonymous sources generally look a little different after court.
While fantasizing about docking draft picks, playoff bans and seven figure fines is fun, it really is putting the cart before the horse.
I think it’s common knowledge that any punishment will depend on who all knew and participated within the Cardinals orginization. So I don’t take this article as assuming the guilt of the whole organization, but simply wondering what will happen if the scenario that plays out is the higherups having a hand in things.
In sports, organizations have been successful in passing off transgressions of the athletes completely onto the athletes; no team has suffered consequences for steroid abuse, for example.
But in this case, non-athletes using corporate equipment on corporate property committed a federal crime. It would be precedent-setting if the Cardinals did not pay a stiff penalty; IBM staff could hack Dell, and IBM could say, ‘We didn’t know.’
But you’re right, the FBI won’t futz around with draft picks and playoff bans. It will be more like jail time, large fine, and imposition of internal controls against future transgressions.
What about offering the Cardinals a choice:
Choice 1. Postseason ban this year
Choice 2. No postseason ban, but any team revenue (as opposed to player revenue) gets paid over to the Astros as restitution.
i just want to know how many people saying that the cards should loose 150 draft picks or should be banned from the playoffs for 5 years, or any of the other asinine things being presented, are actually just cubs fans. i am a neutral party braves fan, and i think some of the stuff being said here is just crazy ludicrous.
You should read Bill Plaschke’s asinine column in the LA Times today for proof that it also extends to other fan bases. tl;dr version is Bill thinks the Cards probably maybe very likely hacked the Dodgers the past two years in the playoffs and that is how they won. As a Red Sox fan, I love that we aren’t talking about our historically bad team anymore: thank you Cardinals executives.
Then plaschke is an idiot. Hacking wouldnt help a player hit a home run unless they plan out every single pitch before the game.
No way man….hacked
A large fine ($2.5 million, agreed to by all franchises) seems the only reasonable response. The rest seems unreasonable based on what was actually done. I mean what was the harm that anyone can list: Luhnow got embarrassed by the leak to Deadspin, that’s it. I mean did the Cardinals undercut the Astros going after Stanton? Nope. Did the Cardinals gain any other advantage clearly? Nope. I think it is important that we remember the actual harm: A MLB team got their laundry aired out. What is the reasonable punishment for embarrassing another team? I think a few million seems to be the best. I’m not sure anything more is warranted.
Ahh, the NHL mantra – no harm no foul. That garage league loves to consider the result of said illegal action when considering punishment. You punish the crime, not the consequence.
How is 2.5 million a large fine for a team valued at 1.5 billion. Its like fining a player making the minimum 1000 bucks.
This whole thing is preposterous and wouldn’t have received nearly as much attention here had the A’s, Rays or Rad Sawks been implicated.
So you’re using your own biases to confirm everybody else’s biases. That makes sense.
I don’t see how the MLBPA could claim any vested monetary interest re:stripping draft picks. If the Cardinal’s lost picks and slot money, doesn’t every team below them move up one spot, leaving the same total amount of slot money available to draft picks, just the Cards would have a lot less and everyone else would have a little bit more?
@ EricR: the Pittsburgh Pirates did NOT receive a Competitive Balance pick in the 2015 FA Draft. They did in 2014.
Yes, you seem to be one of the few who “gets it”. The only draft picks that are actually “lost” would be picks at the end of the draft. And the MLBPA wouldn’t care about those, picks in the 40th round get like what, a $5,000 bonus or something?
I think the only realistic option that would get the message across, that hacking other teams is wrong, is to contract the Cardinals.
The death penalty seems appropriate.
Don’t blame me for Luhnow not changing his passwords. What a putz! It’s like having the combination to your luggage be 12345…
[furiously changes luggage combinations]
What about barring them from signing free agents extended qualifying offers for, say, two years?
What happened to “innocent until proven guilty?”
If “proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt” then the St. Louis Cardinals should be made to contribute ONE HUNDRED MILLION INFLATED DOLLARS to programs that help youngsters who happen to have been born to, shall we say, economically challenged families, play baseball. Maybe ten percent could stay in St.Louis to build baseball fields upon which they can play…and uniforms they can wear…and bats and baseballs to throw and hit,etc. Maybe ten percent could go to Houston…The other eighty percent can go to national programs to foster baseball programs for all of WE THE PEOPLE who are children and were NOT BORN WITH A SILVER SPOON in their mouths.
Wow. I think.this suggestion is one of the dumbest i have read in the posts. Most of these players were NOT born with a silver spoon. They put effort into working on being good at baseball so they can get to the pros and earn a nice paycheck….How bout the “We the people not born with a silver spoon in their mouths” actually put more effort into schoo and work to better their lives and get better jobs instead os relying on taxpayers to take care of them.
You have a problem with a team helping underpriveleged youngsters play baseball? You’re opposed to them receiving free bats and balls and gloves and uniforms? Because they should be working better jobs to earn those uniforms? They’re only kids. Or they should be going to school instead of playing baseball? I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.
No im not opposed to funds going to help youth baseball or programs in underprivalagedarea that could use help. I am opposed to people thinking they should get the funds just because “they were born without a silver spoon” as your original comments says. If you wouldnat have said that i would have agreed with your original post If this is the route the MLB goes the money should be be put towards a grant program where any youth baseball organization can apply for funds, just not underprivalaged youths.
There are much bigger issues at play here and figuring out how to punish the Cardinals probably is not MLB’s biggest concern right now. They have to be concerned that the US government could pursue penalties that could hurt the franchise: for example, crippling fines or prison time for team executives.
Perhaps worse, though, would be if the Astros file a civil suite against the Cardinals. MLB will not want to see two franchises battling it out in court over something like this. As others have pointed out here, any punishment to the Cardinals which helps the Astros could impact other teams in the league, so this could get very, very ugly and complicated.
MLB will likely want to make an example of someone to discourage this sort of thing from happening again. Who this will be will depend on how high up in the Cardinals organization the crime goes. Banning an executive for life or forcing out an owner are where this likely goes.
Perhaps MLB could stop giving the Cards their five “competitive balance” draft picks every year?
You should do research before posting. They got 1 CB draft pick not 5.
What was the Reds penalty when Pete Rose was caught gambling on baseball? How about teams with players who took steroids? Those should be good analogies for the consequences that ought to be imposed here.
A civil suit brought forth by Houston is a very real possibility. All the private trade notes that were made public could be presented as damaging to the psyche of the named players along with a host of other claims–not to mention the musings and offers from all the other clubs…pretty interesting that Stanton was in play for example.
Yes, it is interesting that Stanton was in play.
/another person who never read the 7,867 articles on mlbtraderumors, espn, fangraphs, bleacherreport, and everywhere else about Stanton being potentially traded by the Marlins
And did all 7,867 specifically name Correa and Springer as the return there Mozeliak?
Cards will probably try to handle it internally (firing all people involved) in hopes of a lighter sentence. And I bet it will work. It’s fooled the NCAA and NFL before.
My question is: how did the folks with the Cardinals front office know where the Astros’ Ground Control server was (ip address) so they could log in? It’s not like Luhnow left it up on someone’s laptop or whatever. Perhaps they hacked his email first?
Just read that the cardinals are starting there own internal investigation, which most likely means the FBI investigation is done and there wasnt any evidence implicating the “higher ups since running an internal investigation at the same time.as an fbi ome could interfere with the FBI investigation or do their job for them and find evidence they missed.
lol. they are looking for the “real hackers”
Internal investigation should be similar to the one OJ launched to find the killer of Nicole and Ron.
In classic humble brag Cardinal style, they had to put into the statement about what a great organization they have always been.
They actually said “going to get to the bottom of this.”
Is HR Haldeman on staff, or what?
If you read carefully you will note that the Cardinals started their internal investigation when they were informed of this months ago.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/dewitt-if-involved-cards-officials-will-be-held-accountable/article_28b05540-042d-558a-8c4f-2ba4a90156e5.html
Remember about ten years ago when “contraction” was all the rage regarding Minnesota and Tampa? Dissolve the WLBs!
Does everyone really believe the cardinals execs had knowledge of this action in regards to stealing the Astros information and then have it released to the public?
Wouldn’t they just keep the information private and use it to their advantage?
Doesn’t this just appear as a couple of employees getting the goat of a former coworker? Granted theres going to be hell to pay, but the rush to judgement and over-reaction is a bit much … Even in our modern internet society.
I also get the negative feedback for the cardinal way mentality. As a redbird fan, I always viewed that as just smack talk to cub fans in opposition to much of the dumb stuff that organization does or how they gloriously collapse when given the opportunity to do so … Or in response to the idea that the Yankee have always purchased world titles. We had players involved in cocaine in the 80s, we celebrated mark mcgwire, we signs Peralta.theres no superior morality in st. Louis.
Well, if there was executive knowledge (not even direction but if any guy above the interns or wtvr knew that it happened and said nothing) you can bet yer fanny that the lower level guys will flip to the FBI and give that guy up to save their own skins like a mob button man flipping on the boss.
Or like Giambi & Bonds flipping on their dealer, Victor Conte. Possible time behind bars can do wonders for a fella’s memory.
Or a lady. Ladies can be corrupt or dumb, too. Just almost never seems to happen.
Except for that jailbreak last week, of course.
The main logic of not banning them from playoffs seem to be based on the idea that the players union would disagree, but it seems to overlook that some other team would necessarily take the Cards’ place in the playoffs. Therefore players as a collective would not make less money. Further, given the Cards’ position, this would increase the competitiveness of both the Central and WC positions in the league. This is a bonus overall, but also increases the likelihood of Chicago making the playoffs, and therefore increasing total playoff revenues, which are shared by all players. If I’m the MLBPA, I think I go for this.
I think any discussion of a penalty is premature until we have details on what exactly happened and know what the Feds are going to do.
But, yeah, a playoff ban is ridiculous. I cannot think of anything a franchise could do that would make that punishment a good idea.
I suspect the Cardinals are more concerned about the (apparent) federal criminal investigation and the (probable) federal civil action the Astros will bring against them.
Whatever punishment MLB dishes out will most likely be an attempt to convince the Astros not to file a lawsuit, and to convince the fans that the problem has been “handled” internally.
If a rival business accessed my employer’s computer system, stole sensitive proprietary information to use against us, and then had the nerve to leak some of the embarrassing details to the public, I guarantee there would be a criminal charge and a civil suit.
I believe the Astros are in the driver’s seat. If they stand firm against Manfred’s (likely) threats, they can get several pounds of flesh and drag the sullied Cardinals through the mud.
Let’s hope that happens. The Cardinals new motto would be “The dirtiest team in baseball.”
How about strip the picks from the Cardinals and award them to the Astros along with the bonus pool money that goes with those picks. That takes care of the MLBPA’s problem with stripping picks by maintaining the amount of money there plus it punishes the Cardinals for doing something illegal and compensates the Astros for damage to the team from the leak.
Wouldn’t that indirectly but substantially punish teams in the Astros’ division for no reason? And wouldn’t it harm AL teams while helping non-St. Louis NL teams by essentially shifting a lot of talent to the AL?
The Rangers, Halos, As and Ms did nothing wrong, but under your suggestion they would be competing against a team with double the draft picks and nearly double the bonus pool.
It is telling when a corporation hires a Law Firm to handle an “internal investigation.” Lawyers are not “investigators”.
Law firms are hired for “internal investigations” for one reason only – because their findings and reports are protected from disclosure (even to a grand jury) as “attorney-client privileged” communications.
Whenever you see a law firm being used in this manner, you should be suspicious.
Exactly. There’s no reason to do that if you think your hands are clean.
Its essential for any coverup so as to mitigate the damage. Have to know who knows what, find a way to keep people quite, and know where the evidence is to eliminate or hide it without the Feds getting wind of it and making matters worse by getting charged for obstruction.
The Cardinals get to fund high-level security reviews for every team in the league’s IT department. Should cost several million dollars and make it much less likely something like this happens again at the same time.
How about the league just forces them to re-sign Jason Heyward?
Playoff earnings is not that significant for MLB players, with star players receiving less than a weeks pay for a months service. I suspect many would welcome the extra vacation time.
I also doubt MLBPA gives a darn about bonus money being spent on draft picks since the draft picks are not members of the MLBPA. This is why they support below minimum wage salaries for these players. Less money spent on picks means more money spent on free agents.
As for the commissioners powers, the one weapon we all know he has is the ability to suspend the owner. However, he would need pretty good evidence DeWitt knew about this. I assume he can arrange other penalties as well with the rest of the owners support. It is a collective after all.
The legal penalties will of course serve as a deterrent and will be enough punishment for those prosecuted. Even those who escape due to lack of evidence will have considerable legal expenses from hiring lawyers to keep them out of trouble.
The Cardinals as an organization might be most worried about civil penalties as the Astros could sue for damages.
Their brand has suffered a big hit as well, at least outside of St Louis. They may never recover their repuation, at leaat not for quite awhile.
Make the players wear prison gear for the rest of the season. Its a computer crime, so a club fed type outfit would be appropriate. Maybe a nice bright orange or fluorescent green. What happens if a player steals a base? Possibilities abound.
I think Sam Miller’s idea that the Cardinals should be forced to play the remainder of their games in jeans is the most logical punishment.
What about if instead of taking *away* picks, they replace STL’s 1-10th round picks with ten 40th rounders?
Ban the Cardinals forever. Then move the Rams to LA. Then take St. Louis off the US map. Fuck that city.