The AL Cy Young Discussion
Last week, I addressed the Cy Young battle in the senior circuit and titled it “The NL Cy Young Showdown.” This time, it’s the AL’s turn — and “discussion” (as opposed to “showdown”) seems to be the proper way to characterize it. It’s been a low-key pitching season, comparatively, in the AL, with no one posting an ERA near Zack Greinke‘s, or pitching no-hitters or engaging in zany second-half shenanigans like Jake Arrieta. In fact, a general consensus seems to be building that the award is David Price’s to lose. Today, let’s have a full discussion, including utilization of batted-ball data, about the AL Cy Young and its three likely frontrunners, Price, Chris Sale and Dallas Keuchel.
Price, who turned 30 in late August, is the only one of the three with a Cy (2012) on his mantle, though he hasn’t finished above sixth in the annual voting since then. Sale has come progressively closer in the voting, checking in at sixth, fifth and third in the last three seasons, while this will be the first time on a ballot for Keuchel, 2015’s foremost pitching breakthrough.
The three hurlers’ pedigrees are as dissimilar as their award-voting histories. Price went 1-1 to the Rays out of Vanderbilt in 2007, and if you held a re-draft of all of the top overall picks of the 21st century, he’d go near the top. Sale, 26, drifted down in the first round to the 13th-overall pick in 2010; he should have gone at least five picks higher, though perhaps he was held back by the caliber of competition he faced at Florida Gulf Coast. Keuchel, 27, was a humble seventh-round selection out of Arkansas in 2009. I saw him on Cape Cod, and was impressed by his guile and pitchability, though I didn’t see how he was going to miss major league bats in the future.
Each year, I compile my own ordered minor league lists of top full-season-league position player and starting pitcher prospects based on performance and age relative to league and level. These basically serve as follow lists, with the orders then tweaked based on traditional scouting methods. Sale blitzed through the minor leagues so fast (recording just 14.1 career MiLB innings) that he didn’t have time to qualify for my lists. Price’s minor league career wasn’t much longer, though he did rank 32nd in 2008 when he tossed just enough innings to qualify. Keuchel’s minor league career was much longer, though he made my list only once, way down at #159 in 2010. His 1.95 ground out/air out ratio that year, however, was among the highest on my list. Interestingly, most of the guys on my 2010 list who had even higher grounder rates, like Zach Britton, Jhoulys Chacin, Tyler Chatwood, Rubby De La Rosa, Kyle Gibson, Jenrry Mejia, Tyson Ross, Zack Wheeler, Robbie Ross and Marc Rzepczynski, have gone on to make at least some sort of major league mark.
Let’s take a detailed look at the 2015 performance of these hurlers, through Sunday’s games, by examining their plate appearance frequency and production by ball-in-play (BIP) type data. First, the frequency information:

| Sale | % | REL | PCT |
| K | 32.3% | 160 | 99 |
| BB | 5.0% | 67 | 18 |
| POP | 3.6% | 113 | 54 |
| FLY | 32.4% | 106 | 61 |
| LD | 21.7% | 103 | 60 |
| GB | 42.3% | 93 | 40 |
| ———— | ———— | ———– | ———– |
| D.Price | % | REL | PCT |
| K | 25.3% | 125 | 89 |
| BB | 5.3% | 71 | 25 |
| POP | 4.0% | 125 | 69 |
| FLY | 32.4% | 106 | 61 |
| LD | 23.1% | 110 | 77 |
| GB | 40.4% | 89 | 29 |
| ———— | ———— | ———– | ———– |
| Keuchel | % | REL | PCT |
| K | 24.0% | 119 | 87 |
| BB | 5.5% | 73 | 30 |
| POP | 2.4% | 75 | 25 |
| FLY | 16.9% | 55 | 1 |
| LD | 18.4% | 88 | 19 |
| GB | 62.3% | 138 | 99 |
As with the three primary NL Cy Young contenders (Greinke, Arrieta and Clayton Kershaw), it is immediately clear that Sale, Price and even Keuchel derive a great deal of their success from their strikeout (K) and walk (BB) rates, their collective ability to maximize free outs and minimize free passes. Sale’s K rate is by far the best in the AL (99 percentile rank) and second only to Kershaw in the game. This is his second straight season with a K rate percentile rank of 99, and he has never posted a seasonal mark below 95. Price’s K rate percentile rank of 89 sits between 89 and 94 for the fourth time in five seasons, while, as you might expect, Keuchel’s K rate percentile rank of 87 represents a massive breakthrough, as his previous career best was 39.
Sale’s massive spread between his 99 K and 18 BB rate percentile ranks exactly matches Kershaw’s as the best in the game. Price’s BB rate percentile rank of 25 actually represents a fairly pronounced increase from 2013-14, when it resided in the single digits, while Keuchel’s 30 BB rate percentile rank matches his career best set in 2014.
Throughout most of his career and in 2015, Sale has exhibited a slight fly ball tendency; he set career highs in pop up (86 percentile rank) and fly ball (85) frequency in 2014, with those marks drifting down to 54 and 61, respectively, this season. His liner rate percentile rank (60 in 2015) has fluctuated quite wildly from season, as it does for most pitchers. Positive regression in this area should be expected in 2016.
For the most part, Price’s batted-ball frequencies are in line with his career norms. His 2014 pop up (69) and fly ball (61) percentile ranks are both one basis point off of career highs. Price’s 2015 liner rate percentile rank of 77 is a career high; in fact, it’s the first time in his career he’s produced a liner rate higher than MLB average. He, too, should expect positive regression in this area in 2016.
Keuchel is the clear batted-ball frequency star of this group. You have to begin with his 62.3% grounder rate, which laps the field of ERA-qualifying MLB starters, the true definition of a 99 percentile rank. Conversely, his fly ball rate is miniscule (1 percentile rank), but somehow he gets a representative amount of pop ups (25 percentile rank), too. On top of everything else, he has minimized line drives this season (19 percentile rank). Might he be one of the very few hurlers who can maintain low liner rates over the long haul? Quite possibly, as he has never posted an above-average liner rate, and has actually twice logged percentile ranks in the single digits. This is an elite frequency profile.
Frequency rates can only tell us so much; to fill out the rest of the picture, let’s get a read on the authority level allowed by each pitcher by examining their production by BIP type data:
| Sale | AVG | OBP | SLG | REL PRD | ADJ PRD | ACT ERA | CALC ERA | FIP | TRU ERA |
| FLY | 0.161 | 0.473 | 80 | 77 | |||||
| LD | 0.717 | 1.208 | 133 | 97 | |||||
| GB | 0.292 | 0.306 | 129 | 74 | |||||
| ALL BIP | 0.355 | 0.558 | 126 | 100 | |||||
| ALL PA | 0.233 | 0.271 | 0.366 | 79 | 64 | 3.48 | 3.04 | 2.70 | 2.46 |
| ———— | ———— | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– |
| D.Price | AVG | OBP | SLG | REL PRD | ADJ PRD | ACT ERA | CALC ERA | FIP | TRU ERA |
| FLY | 0.185 | 0.523 | 100 | 100 | |||||
| LD | 0.623 | 0.907 | 87 | 103 | |||||
| GB | 0.250 | 0.293 | 103 | 98 | |||||
| ALL BIP | 0.312 | 0.473 | 94 | 101 | |||||
| ALL PA | 0.228 | 0.269 | 0.346 | 74 | 79 | 2.45 | 2.87 | 2.79 | 3.06 |
| ———— | ———— | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– | ———– |
| Keuchel | AVG | OBP | SLG | REL PRD | ADJ PRD | ACT ERA | CALC ERA | FIP | TRU ERA |
| FLY | 0.175 | 0.474 | 85 | 107 | |||||
| LD | 0.612 | 0.969 | 91 | 96 | |||||
| GB | 0.213 | 0.232 | 71 | 81 | |||||
| ALL BIP | 0.287 | 0.413 | 76 | 83 | |||||
| ALL PA | 0.214 | 0.258 | 0.307 | 64 | 69 | 2.47 | 2.47 | 2.85 | 2.68 |
The actual production allowed on each BIP type is indicated in the batting average (AVG) and slugging (SLG) columns, and is converted to run values and compared to MLB average in the REL PRD (or Unadjusted Contact Score) column. That figure is then adjusted for context, such as home park, team defense, luck, etc., in the ADJ PRD (or Adjusted Contact Score) column. For the purposes of this exercise, sacrifice hits (SH) and flies (SF) are included as outs and hit by pitchers (HBP) are excluded from the on-base percentage (OBP) calculation.
Well, if the story to this point of this article has been Keuchel’s frequency profile, the story the rest of the way will be the negative impact of the horrific White Sox team defense on Sale’s performance this season. Based on actual performance allowed (REL PRD column, or Unadjusted Contact Score), it would appear that Sale has been one of the worst contact managers in baseball this season; an incredible .717 AVG-1.208 SLG allowed on liners, for a 133 Unadjusted Contact Score, nearly matched by his 129 Unadjusted Contact Score allowed on grounders (.292 AVG-.306 SLG). Overall, he allowed .355 AVG-.558 SLG on all BIP, for a 126 Unadjusted Contact Score.
Only problem is, after adjustment for context — meaning adjusted for the Sox’ worst-in-baseball team defense — Sale actually was an average contact manager this season (100 Adjusted Contact Score). Sale actually allowed well below league average fly ball and grounder authority, and only a relatively healthy performance (compared to Price and Keuchel) on BIP not captured by Statcast pushed his Adjusted Contact Score up to 100. In other words, if Statcast captured more of his BIP velocities, chances are the contextual adjustment would be even greater. As it is, his contextually adjusted “tru” ERA of 2.46 is way better than his ERA, and even better than his 2.70 FIP.
It’s the opposite story, but to a lesser magnitude, for Price. The Jays’ lefty allowed harder liner contact than Sale (103 liner Adjusted Contact Score, compared to 97 for Sale), but way less production on liners (.623 AVG-.907 SLG). That’s a combination of superior (or is it less awful?) defense, particularly in the outfield, with some random luck thrown in. Price has been an essentially average contact manager this season, as evidenced by his overall Adjusted Score of 101. Sequencing has also been kind to Price, as his 2.45 ERA is much lower than his calculated component ERA of 2.87. His relatively ordinary contact management ability puffs up his “tru” ERA to a fairly pedestrian, at least in this company, 3.06.
Then there’s Keuchel. It’s not just stellar grounder frequency that drives his performance, it’s superior contact-authority suppression, as well. He’s allowed just .213 AVG-.232 SLG on all of those grounders (71 Unadjusted Contact Score), and there isn’t a lot of luck baked into that number. After adjustment for context, he retains an 81 grounder Adjusted Contact Score. Since grounders make up almost two-thirds of his BIP population, that mark nearly mirrors his overall Adjusted Contact Score of 83. HIs “tru” ERA of 2.68 isn’t quite as good as his ERA of 2.47, but it’s better than his FIP of 2.85, which doesn’t take into account BIP authority.
So who wins? Well, in my mind, the only thing certain headed into the final week of the season is that it shouldn’t be Price. Of the other two, Sale has been the better pitcher, though Keuchel has pitched 19 more innings. The additional volume doesn’t quite outweigh Sale’s additional excellence, in my opinion. If I had a vote, Chris Sale and his 12-11, 3.48, mark would get it. Felix Hernandez set a precedent for a pitcher with a low win total prevailing in the voting, and Sale would take it one step further, given his relatively unspectacular ERA. He won’t win it, of course, but let’s be clear that Sale himself has nothing to with that shortfall. It’s the eight guys surrounding him on the field that let him down with their glove work.
I didn’t realize how bad the White Sox defense has been. Must have been particularly poor with Sale on the mound.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=al&qual=0&type=1&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=19,d
Sorry to post the same reply twice, I am just more hopeful I may get a response at the top than the bottom:
This is just a random question, that may not get answered….
The data we have from statcast is obviously limited at this point – our sample size is under 2 years, so it’s tough to do any sort of comparison.
For much of this season, Chris Sale had the weakest exit velocity in baseball. I’m not quite sure where he stands now, but I’d imagine he is still in the top 10 – if not the top ten. Despite inducing the weakest contact in baseball for much of the year, Sale’s BABIP is a lofty .326.
Without access to all the statcast data personally, I can not calculate the correlation between the two, and the likelihood of this happening, but I have to imagine it is not the norm.
Would it be fair to assume that generating the weakest contact against in baseball, should lead to a lower BABIP? If so, is Chris Sale having one of the more unlucky seasons in baseball history for a pitcher?
.326 BABIP against, 72.2% LOB rate, 12.2 HR/FB rate… all of this while generating incredibly weak contact.
Nice work, Tony. It was an interesting read.
However at the end of the day, hard to give the Cy Young to the guy with the worse ERA, lower WAR, and less innings.
Keuchel has a 2.47 ERA over 226 innings and 6.2 fWAR. Sale has a 3.48 ERA over 201 innings and 6.1 fWAR.
If you go by rWAR (which you should because FIP-based WAR is silly) then Keuchel has the advantage 7.3 to 3.0.
Sale has had a fine year, but Keuchel really deserves this award. The White Sox are bad, but this isn’t a Felix in 2010 or Kluber in 2014 situation where context effectively breaks a tie.
What is silly about FIP?
FIP isn’t a good measure of what happened, being more predictive.
ERA isn’t great, but it does tell us how many earned runs were attributed to a pitcher.
Should the Cy young award try to remove defense, since its an individual award?
Or maybe its not such an individual award, since it appears that making the playoffs has an impact on voting.
As stated, FIP is a fantastic measure of what happened. xFIP is the more predictive one, regressing HR rates to league average. FIP is simply what happened independent of the defense behind the pitcher.
Only if you strictly adhere to the idea that pitchers have zero effect on batted balls.
Average bWAR and fWAR 50/50 and you’re likely more correct than going with either extreme.
With FIP, there’s also the caveat that it says nothing about sequencing. If a pitcher is particularly awful with runners on base, FIP won’t pick up on that but ERA will.
Why would strikeouts, walks, home runs, HBP, and innings pitched not be a good measure of “what happened”? Runs scored and ERA are very situational, and IMO a worse way to judge a pitcher.
Ivdown, they’re a measure of “some things that happened”, but they aren’t all-encompassing. For an extreme example, look at the chart in the ‘Mets are scary’ article. Here’s Matz’s line:
5.2 Innings, 10 hits, 0 HR, 0 BB, 8 K’s, 4.76 ERA, 0.32 FIP.
He gave up 3 runs in less than 6 innings, and gave up almost two hits per inning, yet his FIP was microscopic. If he threw 5.2 no-hit innings, his FIP would be identical. You can’t chalk up those hits to pure luck.
FIP isn’t silly, FIP-based WAR is.
If you’re trying to quantify how valuable a player is over the course of a season you can’t ignore balls in play. A pitcher who gives up the fewest runs is the one who is most valuable, not the pitcher who should have given up the fewest runs in a vacuum.
FIP has its uses, but has no business being consulted for end of season awards.
Except FIP isn’t solely predictive – something everyone is missing here. It attempts to ratify the problem of double counting defensive contributions. By looking at ERA exclusively, you bias yourself heavily towards teams with both good defenses and good ballparks, not the contribution the pitcher actually made.
FIP is absolutely what happened. It is walks, strikeouts, and home runs. It is more predictive than ERA, but that doesn’t mean it’s not “what happened”. The point that needs to be driven home, is that ERA and RA don’t completely fit the bill either since they attribute defensive shortcomings AND defensive strengths to the pitcher when those things shouldn’t matter in pitching. So when you say “A pitcher who gives up the fewest runs” what you are really saying is “a pitcher and a defense who give up the fewest runs” is the most valuable. ERA and RA include defense. FIP does not. Neither is perfect, but I don’t think it’s a longshot to say that FIP and FIP based WAR aren’t silly, in the same way that RA based WAR isn’t silly. They both provide part of the picture.
Santos – that’s well said. Silly was an overstatement.
But I agree that FIP doesn’t belong anywhere near a postseason award because although it stips out some noise I believe it introduces different noise.
FIP removes defense but it also removes batted ball types, sequencing, luck, etc., some of which are controllable by the pitcher but ALL of which are real.
I would agree that you can’t ignore balls in play, but we don’t have a publicly accessible WAR that uses something that actually does a good job of accounting for balls in play, unless you believe SIERA to be accurate enough.
So, if you’re going to give credit to pitchers who have undeniably bad defence by strictly using the metrics they can control, do you also apply that to batters?
Should two close MVP/Silver Slugger candidates get credit for having a low BABIP or having a poor HR/FB%? I agree that adding wRC+ into the MVP/SS discussion adds perspective, but these awards are a measure of what actually happened. Bad luck is part of baseball and if we’re using arbitrary end points such as a 162 game season that’s just part of it.
FIP measures ‘what happened’ and should be used a supplement to the traditional metrics in case of a tie-break.
In my personal opinion, the three categories that matter most in the Cy discussion are ERA, K’s, and IP. Because hell, you gotta be lucky to be good.
FIP isn’t silly. And I understand that FIP strips away some of the noise in defensive contributions. But is also strips away all of the difference in batted ball value.
Keuchel gets weak contact and grounders like crazy. The White Sox defense might be bad, but it’s not enough to make up a full point (almost 50% difference!!!) in ERA.
In any given year, there are absolutely defenses that either cost or benefit a pitcher to the tune of a run a game. 200 innings is a tiny sample in the field, and you could see some crazy variance within that. It’s an extreme result, sure, but definitely not an impossible one.
Harper has been ok, too.
He’ll probably get the NL Cy.
Counter point: Hard to give the Cy Young to the pitcher who strikes out nearly 2.5 fewer batters per 9, has a slightly higher walk per 9, is riding some nice BABIP luck to help lower his ERA, and thus has a higher FIP than the other guy.
I did bad math, actually strikes out nearly 3.5 fewer batters per 9.
I don’t think we can call Keuchels lower than average BABIP luck when he’s done it two years in a row.
According to BP, pitcher BABIP stabilizes after 3729 balls in play, or approximately 8 full seasons.
As a Chris Sale supporter; I think the award should be Keuchels. Sale has had more bad luck than I can ever remember in my baseball viewing lifetime, but that bad luck happened and the award is given based on production, not “expected production.”
Chris Sale is bad at not allowing runs, though. Which is kind of what a pitcher is supposed to be good at.
It is what a pitcher and a defense is suppose to do. I wonder what these pitcher’s run prevention would look like if all three had the whitesox playing behind them.
I personally like Keuchel. He relies a lot on his own defense to help his run prevention. Plus, I’m an incredibly biased Astros fan.
I don’t know if Sale is even the best pitcher on his team anymore.
lol
Did you miss the part about how the White Sox defense is responsible for something like a quarter of the runs he gives up?
Prove it.
So easy to get basic bitch downvotes in this Brave New World of Fangraphs’ mainstream appeal.
… but yet, in his career, coming into this season he had the second lowest ERA of any starter in the modern ERA through his first 700 IP.
So did he forget how to not allow runs?
It’s going to be Price, by the way.
I know the White Sox are bad, but the adjustment on the production data seems extraordinarily generous to Sale. What’s the confidence level on the correctness of those adjustments?
Have you seen the White Sox try to play defense? The numbers pass the eyeball test.
How about we look at years past when he wasn’t surrounded by quite as bad defense; last years team was rescued by a remarkable year at SS by Alexei Ramirez. This year, even Alexei was shit.
Sale clearly knows how to prevent runs when given tools behind him to do so.
Keuchel has 19 wins, Price 18. What else needs to be said?
Price was pitching for a bad team the first 60 per cent of the season.
Nothing. Good point.
I’m not sure how much of a factor this should be, but it should be more than zero. Part of run prevention is defense, and part of defense is what the pitcher himself does for his cause. Per DRS (since UZR ignores this stuff) Keuchel leads all the pitchers baseball (by a considerable margin) with 14 runs saved. Price has 2, and Sale is at -1. It’s easy to say that Sale is a better pitcher than Keuchel, and that Keuchel’s defense just helps him out alot more that Sale’s does. But Keuchel himself actually turns batted balls into outs, and he does so significantly more often than any pitcher in baseball (and alot more often than anyone in the AL).
I wonder if anyone makes the argument that the Cy Young is purely a pitching stat and a pitcher’s own defense should not be considered in the evaluation.
I’m sure somebody somewhere is making that argument… but it’s stupid. A pitcher’s job is to get outs and keep runs off the board; the runs he saves with his glove are just as meaningful as the ones he saves with his arm.
And I think it additionally makes sense since Keuchel gets so many ground balls. For an extreme worm-killer, being a really good vs. a bad defender can make a huge difference. I think there are just questions of how much difference it really makes, but 14 runs is a lot.
This should clearly be a consideration. Dave Cameron is including consideration of pitcher’s batting in his NL Cy Young Vote, because it’s literally a part of the job of being “pitcher”. You have to hit. Fielding is also expected of the guy on the mound. When a team places him out there, they expect him to catch the ground balls hit at him. It’s part of the job.
When even WAR gives Price a slight edge you will have a tough time convincing the public or the average voter to vote for Sale. Maybe in 20 years advanced metrics will have more sway, but in 2015 it will be Price and I don’t think it will be close given the narrative.
True. But stuff like Tony B’s argument for Sale should be heard.
I don’t think this will happen this year, but you could see Sale win the Cy in the AL with the argument being his defense wasn’t very good and then Arrieta win the NL because he was so great in the second half. Of course this would be ironic at a few levels, but mainly because Arrieta’s case is built, in part, on the great defense he has behind him (his increased ground ball rate in the second half are automatic outs with Addison and Castro catching everything).
Chris Sale has the same bWAR as Wei-Yin Chen.
To me that’s more an indictment of bWAR than of Chris Sale.
Whatever. Dude gives up runs.
If the White Sox defense was average, let alone good, Sale would be walking away with the Cy. But the D isn’t average, it’s bad so we have a Cy Young race.
We don’t have much of a race; Price will likely win going away.
Is it really that in the bag? I’m a Sox fan and assume Sale will lose but obviously think he should win (both objectively and as a fan!)
There is a race, but it’s between Keuchel and Price. I really don’t see how Sale has even a remote chance with the combination of record + ERA.
I think it’s pretty close to “in the bag”. I expect Keuchel will garner some support, with Sale (perhaps) a very distant third, with little to no top-of-the-ballot support. Price has been very good, and (rightly or wrongly) comes with an easy narrative that the Jays’ hot streak and push to the top of the division coincided with his arrival.
Simply an interesting anecdote to add – if Chris Sale had been merely average against the Twins this year, he may have run away with this award. Of all SPs the Twins could have dominated, Sale would be among my last guesses. Forgive me for not dredging up the actual data (due to limited time at “work” today)…
Sale has been better than keuchel but probably worse than price. Price deserves it, but I still think sale has deserved it for several yeaRs he got snubbed.
The White Sox defense is bad but it’s not more than 1 run per game worse than anyone else.
Sale’s ERA is 3.48. Keuchel’s ERA is 2.47. Even if you were to give Sale a huge credit for defense — maybe half a run per game — he still wouldn’t come close to Keuchel.
There were some funky awards in the 90s and 00s but I doubt that a guy ever won the Cy Young with an ERA a full run higher than another player who had 7 more wins.
One run per game worse for a defense is horrible.
Sale has given up 78 earned runs in about 200 innings pitched.
The White Sox have cost themselves 46 runs on account of their poor defense this season.
If a reasonably disproportionate amount of those runs below average (say, 20) were attributable to innings pitched by Sale, then league average defense would result in Sale’s ERA being approximately 2.60.
Now, I have no idea what number of defensive runs below average were attributable to Sale’s innings pitched, but it is not beyond belief that his ERA could be inflated by 1 run if he has been unlucky.
This is a great comment, thank you. Where do you get that 46 number from? Their DRS is -36 and their UZR is -45.3, which I am guessing is what you used.
To your point though — so even assuming 20 of the runs below average (almost half) were while Sale was pitching (he has less than 1/6th of their innings) then his ERA would still be above Keuchel’s.
I have no problem doing a thought experiment and giving Sale the benefit of the doubt, but it’s over a run, and even these assumptions don’t make up for that.
remember that Earned Run Average ALREADY filters out much of the bad defense by of course removing so-called unearned runs.
ERA does an awful job of that. Players don’t get errors for throwing to the wrong base, failing to cover a base, taking bad paths to balls or any number of other things that cause outs to become hits that the White Sox due on a daily basis or even more often.
It should be Keuchel, but I am betting the big name Price wins out.
A nice argument, but isn’t FIP really just in love with K rate? Anyway, there is no way in heck that the guy with a full run higher ERA is getting the award. Its Price in an easy win. Voters aren’t going to strain so hard to ignore what has happened.
Not just K rate, FIP is in love with taking balls in play out of the equation. That way you can compare pitchers with various levels of defensive skill behind them.
And if don’t think this is a good way to evaluate pitchers, then why use ERA? RA9 would probably be the stat to look at to see how many runs were allowed by a pitcher. Keuchel has actually outperformed Price on runs allowed by a decent margin this season.
So once again, my incredibly biased view brings me to the conclusion that Kuechel is the clear and only choice for the Cy Young. Any objection to my statement should be kept to yourself, as you are most likely wrong, and I’ll be busy creating a compilation of every Keuchel induced groundball from the past two season with orbit doing his weird hip thrust thing in the background.
Good insight via the stats as usual, but it seems Price wins via the recency bias. He’s been a huge difference maker to the Blue Jays. They’re winning 75% of their games since he joined. He always wins after they are coming off a loss. He’s made their bullpen better by his ability to go deep into games. These are the things most writers use when voting after studying the main statistical categories. Hard to argue against Price though because as Jays soared, Astros have given up their lead and White Sox never contested. Voters attribute winning teams with those who should win the award most often. The Price is Right.
With the improved defense that Cleveland got around to putting on the field halfways through the season, and the step up in production from an already good baseline that was established in 2014, I’m putting my money on Carlos Carrasco for 2016 Cy Young award winner. xFIP being more of a predictive stat bears this out as a possibility:
2.61 Sale
2.66 CarCar
2.70 Keuch
“CarCar”? Ick. No. *raps you on the nose with a rolled up newspaper*
Car squared?
yeah, Sale’s just not gonna win when his era is 40% higher than the other two while throwing 20-25 fewer innings to boot.
and if you’re going to do this deep a dive into the numbers to try and separate true talent from teammate quality, then you should probably try to include opponent quality as well.
First time commenting here, though I’ve read the site for a while. I admittedly don’t understand all of the math behind many of the debates, but still find most of the articles pretty enlightening.
Anyways, I just wanted to ask a question. I get the basics on some of the stuff like FIP and BABIP, but is there anyways to account for all of the shifting Houston does and how it affects Keuchel’s frequency #’s? The Astros shift more than anybody else by a wide margin (maybe not as wide as a few years ago, but still….) and over the long haul turn more batted balls into outs than most teams. How much, if at all, does this affect Keuchel’s frequency numbers?
I really think such analysis are lacking when they don’t include the quality of opponent and consistency (home away, 1st half -2nd half, good team-bad team).
To me, Price has faced more good hitting teams and been more consistent. Keuchel has drastic H-A splits, Sale has drastic 1st half-2nd half splits , and Price has just been more consistent overall, and his best work has come down the stretch when the games are more meaningful (I know this is not an MVP award but the leverage of games and the pitchers performance should count some)
I would vote Price, Keuchel, Sale in that order. Maybe Sales run prevention numbers would be better with a better team defense, but he has had some bad starts with 5 of games having game scores well under 40 compared to 2 for Price (1 of which was in a game against the Yankees where the temperature was in the 20’s) and Keuchel 1. Not as consistently good as the other 2.
It seems worth pointing out that Baseball Prospectus’s DRA, which adjusts for quality of defense among a dozen other things not dealt with here, not only has Keuchel and Price one two, but also has Gray and Archer ahead of Sale. Not only is TIP a form of cherrypicking when used to evaluate the past. So is looking at defense without looking at quality of opponents an all the other things DRA addresses.
That should say FIP. And that is what happens when posting on your phone.
27 of Chris Sale’s 78 Earned Runs have been against Minnesota over 6 starts. 34.6% of Earned Runs. Made me wonder about the Getting Shelled rates for each of the three.
Sale has given up 46/78 Earned Runs over 8 games giving up 4+ game- 58.9% of ER. 10.10 ERA when he’s bad. 1.79 ERA @3 runs or less.
Price has given up 25/60 Earned Runs over 5 games giving up 4+ game- 41.6% of ER. 8.76 ERA when he’s bad. 1.96 ERA @3 runs or less.
Keuchel has given up 31/62 Earned Runs over 6 games giving up 4+ per game. 50% of ER. 7.34 ERA when he’s bad. 1.48 ERA @3 runs or less.
Looks like Keuchel is kicking ass this year at least through these metrics. Less than 1 out of 5 starts he gets touched up. Sale 1 out of 4. Price like 1 out of every 6. Maybe Sale got lit up a bit much to win it this year, especially since Minnesota torched him for 5 of his 8.
Since they are aces it might be fun to reinvestigate this @2 or even 1 and under to see who’s lights-out the most.
Oh yeah, and Houston better make the post season…
Articles like these are contrarian, but falsely so.
There is no way any rational voter would choose Sale. He had the privilege of pitching in the Central Division, with only one legitimate playoff contending team — the Royals — to face off against for 19 games in the unbalanced Divisional schedule. And all 4 divisional rivals, including the Royals, have scored under 700 runs. Weak sauce.
In contrast, the Price-led Jays have had to face the Yankees 19 times (the consensus 2nd best team in the league and their direct competitor for the divisional title) and Price himself had to face the Yanks for 4 straight as they jockeyed for the lead. Talk about high leverage. Plus, given their run-scoring and run-differential prowess, both the BoSox and Os could likely compete with the Royals for the Central Division title, if they were in the Central.
Similarly, Houston is embroiled in a 3-way divisional race with the Angels and Ranges. High leverage after high leverage. Sure, Seattle and Oakland are no good, but that’s still 38 games of high-stakes competition for the Keuchel-led ‘Stros to go up against.
Again, this author can cherry-pick stats in a vacuum, but if he doesn’t take the same care to align the pitchers with the situations their team is in, his statistical take is contextless, and pretty much irrelevant. The only difference-maker would be if Sale’s stats were far-and-above beyond the competition, like King Felix’s were, but the OPPOSITE is the case!
Don’t forget that Price has only been on the Jays since the midseason. For more than half of the season he was in the Central that you’re docking Sale for pitching in.
This is just a random question, that may not get answered….
The data we have from statcast is obviously limited at this point – our sample size is under 2 years, so it’s tough to do any sort of comparison.
For much of this season, Chris Sale had the weakest exit velocity in baseball. I’m not quite sure where he stands now, but I’d imagine he is still in the top 10 – if not the top ten. Despite inducing the weakest contact in baseball for much of the year, Sale’s BABIP is a lofty .326.
Without access to all the statcast data personally, I can not calculate the correlation between the two, and the likelihood of this happening, but I have to imagine it is not the norm.
Would it be fair to assume that generating the weakest contact against in baseball, should lead to a lower BABIP? If so, is Chris Sale having one of the more unlucky seasons in baseball history for a pitcher?
.326 BABIP against, 72.2% LOB rate, 12.2 HR/FB rate… all of this while generating incredibly weak contact.
Look at how bad Sale’s numbers were against the Twins, without those his numbers are staggering. He got screwed over by ONE crappy team.
With Sale, his 2nd half has absolutely killed him….
FIP:
1st half: 2.28
2nd half: 3.31
also this nugget for the White Sox defense folks:
2nd half of the season… White Sox rotation as a whole has given up 220 runs in 453.1 innings. 4.37 team era.
Sale has given up 42 runs in 82.1 innings. 4.59 ERA.
So the other pitchers on the White Sox staff gave up 178 runs in 371 innings. That’s a 4.31 ERA.
So is the defense just horrible with Sale, and then exceptional with everyone else?
A lot of Sale’s problem is the gopher ball. 12 since the break, with 4 games allowing 2+ homers.
I just don’t see a guy with the half sequencing like this getting the award.