The Cardinals Look Cooked

One of my menagerie of cats, a black cat named Cassiopeia, has a mortal enemy. Not the vacuum cleaner or an empty food bowl like my other cats, but a bright red cardinal that has been hanging around my backyard for quite a while. Cassie’s bête noire survives because she’s an indoor cat, but if for some reason Cassie ever gained access to the cardinal, that bird would be toast. The St. Louis Cardinals are in a not-dissimilar position. A stable, secure franchise for two decades, their careful planning and prudent measures have kept them away from the cat. But as things have gone wrong for the Cardinals over the last year, they’ve found themselves on a precarious perch, short of options other than unpleasant ones.
I don’t think I’m going out on a limb when I talk positively about the long-term stability of the Cardinals. Before last year’s dreadful 71-91 campaign, the franchise had not been under .500 since 2007, and to find a season with more losses, you have to go all the way back to 1990, when this grumpy aging Gen X’er was a grumpy 12-year-old. Last year’s 4.54 ERA doesn’t sound particularly unusual for a lousy team, but it was for the Cards. The pitching staff’s 114 ERA- was the worst for the franchise in a full season (1994 was an even worse disaster, but a truncated one) since 1913.
All in all, this is an organization that even in rough years could never be described as a dumpster fire. And then last year happened. If we go through the Cardinals’ history of ZiPS projections, we can see a team that was a titan of above-average competence.
| Year | Projected Wins | Actual Wins |
|---|---|---|
| 2005 | 98 | 100 |
| 2006 | 94 | 83 |
| 2007 | 84 | 78 |
| 2008 | 78 | 86 |
| 2009 | 87 | 91 |
| 2010 | 91 | 86 |
| 2011 | 83 | 90 |
| 2012 | 85 | 88 |
| 2013 | 85 | 97 |
| 2014 | 90 | 90 |
| 2015 | 86 | 100 |
| 2016 | 86 | 86 |
| 2017 | 85 | 83 |
| 2018 | 87 | 88 |
| 2019 | 86 | 91 |
| 2020 | 31 | 30 |
| 2021 | 86 | 90 |
| 2022 | 89 | 93 |
| 2023 | 91 | 71 |
| 2024 | 83 | 79 (Proj.) |
This year, the Cardinals were projected to have a bit of a bounceback from 2023, but 83-79 should have served as a bit of a red flag, as only once had ZiPS projected a Cards team to finish with a worse record. The NL Central is one of the weakest divisions and the Cards are not a team in the middle of a rebuild, but one trying to win now. This was an organization that tried to go back to its usual playbook and retool carefully and conservatively. Sonny Gray was the highlight of the winter, signed to a three-year, $75 million contract, but the other signings were one-year stopgaps, either to patch holes in the rotation with no. 4 starters (Lance Lynn, Kyle Gibson) or fill out the back of the depth chart (Brandon Crawford, Matt Carpenter, Keynan Middleton).
Staying the course may work as a long-term strategy when you’re dependably winning 87-93 games a year and your farm system is steadily reinforcing the parent club’s depth with unheralded prospects that end up being real contributors, like Lars Nootbaar, Tommy Edman, Brendan Donovan, and Harrison Bader, among others. This strategy basically involved pretending 2023 didn’t happen, and it ignored a key aspect that also needed addressing: the team’s offense. While the lineup didn’t collapse as drastically as the pitching staff, the team finished 10th in the National League in runs scored, with three of its key contributors in their 30s (Nolan Arenado, Paul Goldschmidt, and Willson Contreras). Yet the most significant move the Cardinals made with their position players this offseason was a subtraction, when they traded left fielder Tyler O’Neill to the Red Sox. The Cardinals certainly couldn’t have counted on the oft-injured O’Neill to stay healthy enough to be one of the most productive power hitters in the league, as he is right now with the Red Sox (.255/.366/.540, 11 HR, 146 wRC+, 1.1 WAR in 38 games entering Tuesday), but just to shed $6 million in salary, the trade cost St. Louis depth and upside that it no longer had to spare.
It was certainly within the realm of probability that the pitching triage would be effective and Arenado and Goldschmidt would play more like they had in 2022 than last year, but so far, that hasn’t been the case. And now the Cards face a serious problem: The expectations of their talent are simply a lot lower than they were a year ago, or even two months ago. To try to demonstrate this in a straightforward manner, I started with everyone projected to make one plate appearance or throw one inning in the majors the rest of the season. To me, that’s a realistic definition of the short-term talent a team intends to use. Then, I grouped each of these players by team. From there, using these groupings, I looked at each of the 30 teams’ projected WAR for 2025, as of Tuesday morning, and compared it to the 2025 outlooks from before the 2023 season and before the 2024 season. This list doesn’t make any accounting for free agents; I’m simply trying to get a feel for the trajectory of the talent each team has access to at this moment.
| Team | Before 2023 | WAR Before 2024 | Now | Change, Before 2023 to Now | Change, Before 2024 to Now |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Arizona | 52.1 | 61.6 | 62.5 | 10.4 | 0.9 |
| Baltimore | 55.6 | 60.7 | 65.5 | 9.9 | 4.8 |
| Atlanta | 57.6 | 64.8 | 67.2 | 9.6 | 2.5 |
| Chicago (N) | 50.8 | 58.4 | 59.0 | 8.2 | 0.6 |
| Milwaukee | 44.8 | 53.0 | 52.9 | 8.1 | 0.0 |
| Pittsburgh | 49.0 | 57.3 | 56.7 | 7.7 | -0.6 |
| Houston | 57.7 | 61.8 | 64.1 | 6.4 | 2.3 |
| Boston | 43.6 | 49.1 | 49.9 | 6.3 | 0.9 |
| Oakland | 33.3 | 38.3 | 39.3 | 6.0 | 1.0 |
| Miami | 38.1 | 46.1 | 43.5 | 5.4 | -2.5 |
| Tampa Bay | 48.9 | 57.2 | 52.5 | 3.7 | -4.7 |
| Minnesota | 52.0 | 55.9 | 55.6 | 3.6 | -0.2 |
| Texas | 53.9 | 57.9 | 56.7 | 2.8 | -1.2 |
| Cleveland | 58.8 | 61.6 | 61.4 | 2.6 | -0.2 |
| Detroit | 50.2 | 53.5 | 51.2 | 1.0 | -2.3 |
| San Francisco | 51.3 | 52.2 | 52.3 | 1.0 | 0.0 |
| Seattle | 53.1 | 53.0 | 53.6 | 0.6 | 0.6 |
| New York (A) | 60.5 | 59.8 | 60.7 | 0.2 | 0.9 |
| Cincinnati | 45.1 | 48.8 | 45.3 | 0.2 | -3.5 |
| Los Angeles (N) | 63.3 | 59.8 | 62.7 | -0.6 | 2.9 |
| Toronto | 57.9 | 54.9 | 57.2 | -0.8 | 2.3 |
| Philadelphia | 52.9 | 46.3 | 50.9 | -1.9 | 4.6 |
| San Diego | 52.5 | 48.0 | 50.3 | -2.2 | 2.3 |
| Colorado | 31.0 | 31.9 | 28.5 | -2.5 | -3.5 |
| Kansas City | 44.3 | 36.6 | 39.8 | -4.5 | 3.2 |
| Washington | 35.8 | 31.2 | 31.1 | -4.7 | -0.1 |
| Los Angeles (A) | 39.0 | 33.0 | 33.6 | -5.4 | 0.6 |
| St. Louis | 58.3 | 55.3 | 50.8 | -7.5 | -4.5 |
| New York (N) | 55.1 | 44.0 | 43.7 | -11.5 | -0.3 |
| Chicago (A) | 44.5 | 35.3 | 29.3 | -15.2 | -6.0 |
The absolute numbers don’t really matter here, so don’t read too much into them. Few teams, if any, will use the same number of players this season, so these projections are based on a varying amount of players for teams, depending on how each club deploys its roster. What does matter is the change in these numbers.
And, as you can see, the Cardinals have the third-largest dropoff in baseball, from before the 2023 season and before Opening Day this year to now. What’s going on here? The simple answer is that many of the players the Cardinals are relying on the most (Arenado, Goldschmidt, the injured Contreras, Gray, Lynn, and Gibson, among others) are in the decline stage of their careers.
Meanwhile, quick reinforcements from within are unlikely. Of the 11 pitchers who have thrown at least 20 innings at Double-A or Triple-A, only Connor Thomas has a translated ERA in ZiPS under four. Perhaps more concerning, Thomas is the only one of the 11 whose projected 2025 ERA is better now than it was before this season began.
| Player | 2025 ERA (Before 2024) | 2025 ERA (Now) | Difference |
|---|---|---|---|
| Connor Thomas | 4.16 | 4.11 | -0.05 |
| Tink Hence | 4.19 | 4.21 | 0.02 |
| Trent Baker | 4.98 | 5.05 | 0.07 |
| Gordon Graceffo | 4.34 | 4.45 | 0.11 |
| Michael McGreevy | 4.20 | 4.32 | 0.12 |
| Ian Bedell | 5.11 | 5.23 | 0.12 |
| Sem Robberse | 4.11 | 4.25 | 0.14 |
| Victor Santos | 4.33 | 4.49 | 0.15 |
| Adam Kloffenstein | 4.56 | 4.73 | 0.17 |
| Max Rajcic | 5.18 | 5.38 | 0.20 |
| Tekoah Roby | 4.21 | 4.42 | 0.21 |
The story is the same for the hitters. Entering Tuesday, 21 players in the high minors have at least 60 plate appearances, and even in that really small sample size, only two of them (José Fermín and Jimmy Crooks) have a translated OPS north of .750. More than half the players (12) have OPS translations below .600.
| Player | 2025 OPS (Pre-2024) | 2025 OPS (Now) | Diff |
|---|---|---|---|
| José Fermín | .666 | .700 | .034 |
| César Prieto | .648 | .674 | .026 |
| Nick Dunn | .643 | .662 | .019 |
| Bryan Torres | .633 | .652 | .019 |
| Matt Lloyd | .512 | .531 | .019 |
| Jeremy Rivas | .546 | .558 | .012 |
| Jared Young | .691 | .692 | .001 |
| Nathan Church | .620 | .613 | -.007 |
| Jimmy Crooks | .671 | .663 | -.008 |
| Nick Raposo | .642 | .630 | -.012 |
| Luken Baker | .727 | .710 | -.017 |
| Thomas Saggese | .693 | .676 | -.017 |
| Victor Scott II | .644 | .625 | -.019 |
| Jacob Buchberger | .619 | .600 | -.019 |
| Chris Rotondo | .445 | .423 | -.022 |
| Matt Koperniak | .684 | .661 | -.023 |
| Noah Mendlinger | .664 | .635 | -.029 |
| Alfonso Rivas III | .692 | .652 | -.041 |
| Moises Gomez | .676 | .632 | -.044 |
| Chandler Redmond | .649 | .605 | -.044 |
| R.J. Yeager | .686 | .641 | -.045 |
Two-thirds of the hitters have seen their projections for 2025 get worse. Even more troubling is how few of these projected numbers are actually useful to a major league club. Only two hitters project with a .700 OPS in the majors in 2025, and only then just barely.
Further complicating matters is that the diminished projections haven’t been limited to veterans like Goldschmidt. Rather, they’re also the case for pretty much all of the core hitters on the roster who were expected to be “the next generation” of Cardinals. The departed O’Neill may have resuscitated his career with his 2024 so far, but after two injury-affected seasons, he had dropped in status from a player who was eighth in the NL MVP balloting in 2021 to one the Cardinals were happy to see go to save a little cash. Jordan Walker was demoted to Triple-A Memphis before the end of April, and while he’s hit somewhat better since then, a wRC+ of 111 down there is not impressive for a player whose contributions will almost entirely come on offense. Nolan Gorman’s hits this year have been softer than an erotic thriller edited for network television, resulting in 10 points shaved off his projected 2025 wRC+ (115 to 105). Dylan Carlson bears less responsibility for 2024 given the shoulder injury that cost him a month, but after bursting into the majors with a solid rookie season in 2021, he now looks like a fourth outfielder — if that.
Here’s what makes things even trickier for the Cardinals: Despite their 21-26 record and third-place standing, they’ve won six of their last eight games entering Wednesday — their game Tuesday night against the Orioles was suspended due to rain in the sixth inning with the score tied, 1-1 — and have an 19.1% probability to make the postseason, per our Depth Charts playoff odds. That certainly isn’t a great chance, but considering the lack of options to turn things around in time for short-term future seasons, it might be more appealing for the organization to stay the course with the hope of making an unlikely, but hardly impossible, playoff push than it would be to make a drastic decision now that might be more beneficial in the long run.
It’s worth mentioning that, as of Tuesday morning, ZiPS projected St. Louis to have a 15.3% playoff probability because ZiPS is normally more optimistic about the Cardinals than is Depth Charts. ZiPS generally factors in organizational depth more than DC does, and the Cardinals typically have excellent depth. This year, that is not the case. Additionally, even with the expectation that Goldschmidt and Arenado are likely to better the rest of the way than their early season performance, as well as the assumption that Contreras will come back strong from his brutal arm fracture, ZiPS projects the Cardinals to have the 11th-best offense in the National League for the remainder of the season. And the rotation projects no better, at 12th of the 15 NL teams. Amusingly, the bullpen may be the team’s strongest asset, a reversal of fortune from previous years.
In other words, the Cards could very well win 85 games and sneak into a wild card spot. But that’s the hope of a mediocre team, not a top contender. It’s a risky one, too; the prospect of having some chance of making the playoffs may keep the team willing to tread water, again trying to filibuster the decision of whether to push in all their chips or to fold their hand. If the Cardinals decide to punt, some of their players would still have value to other teams in a trade. Closer Ryan Helsley, lefty setup man JoJo Romero, Nootbaar, and Goldschmidt, assuming he starts to hit again, all could fetch significant prospects for the farm system. The 33-year-old Arenado would also net a nice return so long as the Cardinals would agree to pay a chunk of his remaining salary. (After this season, he’ll make $52 million over the final three years of his contract.) Or, if St. Louis wants to double down and try to win in 2025 without selling before the deadline, there are some enticing players who will be free agents after the season, such as Corbin Burnes, Max Fried, Pete Alonso, and – dare I say – Juan Soto. But the organization’s track record suggests that neither of these approaches is likely; the Cardinals don’t tear everything down, and they don’t play at the top of the free agent market.
As things stand, time is not on the organization’s side. When I project the results for the NL Central in 2025 and 2026, using each team’s in-system talent and therefore not accounting for potential future moves, the Cardinals continue to slide relative to the other teams in the division. In fact, St. Louis is the only one of the five teams that has a worse projection for 2026 projection than it does for 2024. The system-only projection for 2025 pegs the Cardinals to win only 79 games, followed by 77 wins for 2026. In these projections, the young pitching in the high minors would replace the team’s current starters, except for Gray, but Hence is the only one who projects to have a high ceiling. Meanwhile, on offense, ZiPS projects the team to continue to get almost nothing from the farm. That’s a problem for many reasons, but one of the most immediate ones is that Goldschmidt, who turns 37 in September, will be a free agent after the season. Even if he isn’t as bad as he’s looked so far this year, it’s unlikely that he’ll be as good as he once was in the future; recognizing this, it would make sense for the Cardinals to move on from him. Except, because of their uninspiring hitting prospects, the Cardinals don’t have a good option to replace even a diminished version of Goldschmidt. Walker and Gorman are natural third basemen, so one of them could take over for Arenado if the Cardinals trade him, but that would open up a hole somewhere else on their roster that would need to be filled by players who aren’t good enough to replace the lost production.
The Cards have long been one of the most competent organizations in the league. But at the moment, steadiness looks like indecision and conservatism looks meek. My cat Cassie will never get the chance to catch her cardinal, but there’s a very real possibility that the predators in the NL Central have successfully captured theirs.
Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.
What a clincher! I give it an A.
Their offense might be better than it has looked so far. They are scoring over 6 runs a game this month (17 games). League average is 4.38 as of this writing. Could easily fall off but 17 games is more than 1/3rd of their season.
Not arguing they aren’t mediocre though… The pitching is probably as bad as it has looked.
Well, the pitching is as bad as it has looked, relatively speaking. The bullpen is actually really good. The starting rotation is indeed pretty mediocre, but Gray has been great, and Lynn and Gibson have been decent, the very starters they added in free agency to rebuild the rotation.
Cards overall pitching: 20th in fWAR
Cards bullpen: tied for 9th in fWAR
yep!
They are related: look at the number of batters the Cards’ starters face the 3rd time thru, it’s one of the highest totals in the league and the performances have been bad in those PAs. Those are batters the soft underbelly of the bullpen *isn’t* facing, which skews the rotation numbers down and bullpen numbers up.
Poor roster management and player deployment is also an issue with this org.
Gibson: 4.39 xFIP
Lynn: 4.26 xFIP
I guess those are “decent” numbers relative to the other starting options the Cardinals have.
Gibson and Lynn are both pitching like garden-variety fifth starters, with Lynn being better than Gibson (Gibson’s xERA has a whole lot of warning flags). As bad as that is that they’re two of the better pitchers on the team, it would be a whole lot worse if they had to have Gordon Graceffo start every fifth game.
This article would’ve been fine a week or two ago, but why are you writing and posting it now when the offense has finally turned it around and the team is winning again?!
Besides, the offense was great last year! The team offensive numbers were only mild due to a bunch of injuries, mostly in August and September after the team was already out of it. Nobody in their right mind thought the offense needed any additions last offseason. Most of the offense collapsing was just weird and entirely unpredictable, but now as I mentioned they’re finally getting back to where they were, save for some questions of power from Goldschmidt and Arenado.
Yes, there are no immediate offensive reinforcements coming from the Minors this year or next save for bringing Walker back up and maybe Scott in the second half or next year, but they don’t need any others, as the only upcoming free agents among their position players are Goldschmidt, Carpenter, and Crawford, the latter two only being bench pieces (and Crawford likely to be DFAed when Edman returns), and they can handle bringing in just a 1B in free agency.
Meanwhile, the bullpen and defense are great, and the starters are adequate, so they should perform as initially expected for the rest of the season. It’s just that it’s probably too late for a playoff spot after their poor first month and a half.
The thing is, long-term trajectories aren’t changed with a good week or a bad week. This has a been an ongoing issue for a year and a half (and the projections include the last two weeks).
As for injuries last year, they didn’t have an unusual number of injuries. Every team has a lot. And normally, the much deeper Cards rosters absorb their injuries.
Yet, it still feels pretty slanderous and in vain.
Mentioning MiLB pitching depth for an organization being awfully careful with its SP prospects seems brash. With none of the major SP prospects in AAA, it feels incorrect to predict ERAs for many starters who are just now being allowed to go deeper into games.
The rotation is miserable. Sure. Outside of Gray there is nothing of substance for the team which is rather uncharacteristic. But that’s how it was going into last year, too. The bullpen is electric — and will be aided by the return of Middleton in a few weeks. This is different. The Cardinals were near the top in blown saves last year and had no bullpen depth to sit back on when their starters were bulldozed in 4 innings. Additionally, the additions of guys like Fernandez and O’Brien should breathe optimism into the flame that is a growing maturity when talking about pitch data and evaluation.
The Cardinals offense will be fine, and you’re overplaying its struggles to entice hungry readers. A Goldschmidt trade makes sense; so too does one of Arenado. Yet, the hypothesization of trading away young, talented stars is mind-boggling for an organization missing only one component (SP). Trading Nootbaar to receive MiLB value in return is not just ludicrous but ignorant. While there is limited offensive depth in the minors, you can source that through trades of veterans and the draft.
Long-term trajectories work great when looking at long-term trends. It is almost as if the offensive woes in the early season — which saw the Cardinals be bottom 5 in team wRC+ — were not the actualization of talent. Sure the rotation is awful and doesn’t project well. But the birds are beginning to sing at the plate again, and the bullpen projects as well as any.
Slanderous, eh?
I may turn out to be wrong in my analysis, but I’m not sure that’s what that word means.
“breathe optimism into the flame that is a growing maturity”
OK, now I *know* this is a prank.
”The Cardinals offense will be fine”… yes completely fine for a team with a ceiling win total of 81 games
Plus, everyone knows that slander is spoken!
Yes, all of us Fangraphs readers are just hungry for anti-Cardinals sentiment!
Not necessarily unusual number of injuries, it’s just that they were concentrated in the OF. Carlson, O’Neil and Nootbaar were injured at the same time, while Walker had been sent to AAA. Not a lot of teams are going to have better than replacement level players at the fifth, sixth and seventh outfielder spots.
In addition to the OF injuries they also had a lot of health issues in the rotation. Mikolas was healthy for all of 2023, but no other SP made 22+ starts. Montgomery missed 40% of the season, so did Flaherty, Matz and Wainwright. That’s 4 of their (at the time) projected top 5 who missed 40% or more of the season.
Agreed, though I don’t think ZiPS thought much of the starting pitching depth to begin with. But it wouldn’t have projected 40% of the SP being traded at the deadline. And probably wouldn’t have thought Waino would perform so poorly, yet continue to get starts.
I think there are two things this exercise misses. First, the Cards punted on the season in mid- to late- July, no longer trying to win, making trades for the future, giving young guys some opportunities and recommitting to Waino’s quest for 200. It was a 71 win team in large part because they made the team worse, expecting to pick-up three starters in the offseason.
Second, at the trade deadline, their BaseRuns record was on a pace for 88-90 wins. The offense was good with unfortunate sequencing. The team said they reluctant to mess with that part of the team and were focused on pitching. That 2015 100-win team had an 89 win base-run record. Sometimes things just happen.
2023 Mikolas GS. 35
2023 Montogmery GS. 32
2023 Flaherty GS. 29
2023 Matz. GS 17
2023 Wainwright GS 21
Almost all of Matz’ starts were before the trade deadline and Wainwright was shut down after 200 late in the season
It’s not perfect but close to it
Montgomery and Flaherty were traded, that’s why they missed time. Wainwright was one of the worst pitchers in MLB so he got benched after his 200 win vanity chase was over. Matz wasn’t Mr Durability which should surprise no one who has ever heard of Steven Matz before.
The comment read “they had a lot of health issues” and Montgomery and Flaherty missed 40% of the season. Getting traded isn’t a health issue
Was missing Mikolas, Flaherty, Matz and Wainwright a positive or a negative?
For what it’s worth, Walker got called back up when Nootbaar was injured. There wasn’t a significant amount of time when the Cards were down all four players.
A lot of the outfield time was covered by Burleson, Edman, and Donovan anyway. This mean they had to give DeJong more PT but DeJong was OK for them last year.
Yeah, but Walker was a below replacement level player the first half of the year, and once they saw him at the MLB level, he should not have been an every day player, but they probably didn’t have much choice at that point. Burleson was also a below replacement level player. I somewhat agree that they had some players to cover the injuries, possibly better than many teams, but it was often an ugly OF arrangement.
That seems to prove Dan’s point about lack of depth, though. If five outfielders get hurt, few teams can handle that. If three outfielders get hurt, and the two young guys who replace them are ineffective, that seems like the team didn’t have as much depth as they thought.
The complication being that Walker’s bat was fine (his only really subpar month was July), his fielding dragged him down.
Lanidrac jumps all over any story or comment that could even remotely be construed as negative toward the Cardinals.
if you really want to rile him up, tell him that Yadier Molina wasn’t as good as Buster Posey
Firstly, you’re suggesting the offense has finally turned it around based on just over one week of play. That’s not nearly indicative of anything substantial, especially to the point of claiming what you’re claiming.
Secondly, in that period, since May 13th, they have four games inflating their numbers significantly. Two were against the Angels, one of the worst pitching teams in the league, and two were against the Red Sox, one of the better, and they only faced one above average pitcher in Crawford – who they got all of one run off of. They also got shut out for 5 innings against Soriano. So the majority of the runs they got in these four inflated games came off bullpen arms.
Finally, the remaining games they played over that period they averaged 3.2 runs. That’s including a 6 run game against the Orioles.
This is not a team that is doing well offensively. To call this article slanderous is beyond ridiculous and it’s hysterical to say… “Long-term trajectories work great when looking at long-term trends.” while claiming Dan is being slanderous while your premise of this is based on 10ish games.
Nice article. Do FG rules prevent a photo of Cassie?
That. Is adorable. I love the little name placard.
Good kitty.
I’m surprised she hasn’t angled for CFO yet. (Chief Feline Officer)
Trade her now for prospect kittens while her value is high.
Part of this growing mediocrity is by design — design of the MLB draft system, that is. Chronically successful teams chronically draft late, while chronically terrible ones draft at the beginning of the first round. The Cardinals, being long in the former camp, have only had one draft pick in the first half of the first round this millennium (using it to get the entertaining but unspectacular Brett Wallace in 2008). No wonder they have had no Skenes, Holliday, Rodon, etc., roaring through their system; the way the system works, they’re not supposed to.
They do not, by any means, get off scot free for the failure to grow impact talent. I don’t understand why their international draft has been so weak lately, nor what is the matter with their trades (Randy Arozarena, Sandy Alcantara, etc., I’m looking at you). There appears to be a systematic problem; but the draft mediocrity is the way the system is supposed to work — for a while.
Since their 100 win season in 2015, they’ve been content to shoot for 85 to 88 wins and roll the dice in the playoffs. Variance has occasionally let them win the division and occasionally left them out of the playoffs.
It worked for so long that the last few off seasons have been free of “big moves” (excepting Gray this past offseason, which was an “oh shit” reaction to last year’s rotation), even when just one pricey addition could have made them clear division favorites or pushed them up into better competition with the best East and West teams.
While it’s true that the draft penalizes good teams and rewards bad teams to some degree, and the good teams won’t get the consensus #1 projected superstars, there’s this:
1) The Cardinals have had winning records going on a couple of decades now, yet they STILL managed to get good talent despite this
2) There are many rounds to the MLB draft and picking baseball talent has been known to be more difficult than the other major sports, meaning there’s value to be had in picks other than 1-10. There are countless examples of stars having been picked in later selections in the draft. Yes, there’s some luck involved, but some teams’ scouting departments do a better job of recognizing talent, and some organizations do a better job of developing it, than others.
There’s more but I ran out of time. Bottom line: using their past success is mostly just an excuse.
This is the key. Baseball players are not even close to finished products when they are drafted. There are a lot of guys who are graded in the FV45 range (even FV40+) when they’re drafted who become stars. Being able to get excellent value in the 2nd and 3rd rounds (and the comp rounds) is how a lot of teams can have sustained success over time.
Draft position is a cop out that bad organizations make. See: The Angels
Inversely, see: Tampa Bay. They “have no money” and therefor acquire the vast majority of their talent through the draft/cashing in players who are nearing the end of their initial contract for more prospects. Since banishing the devil from their name in 08 they have had 4 losing seasons (in a row) but also consistently been in the bottom 5 for payroll and play in arguably the most competitive division in baseball. Baseball is a tough nut to crack, and blaming the draft isn’t very fair when there’s no single player that can get a team immediately into contention the way a franchise QB or elite scorer can in other sports.
I suppose this is why the Yankees and Dodgers are terrible every year too
Roster resource has Arenado at 32, 27, 15 with Colorado paying $10. So it’s either 3/76 or 3/66 depending on how you look at it
The first thing they need to do is, the moment Jordan Walker starts turning things around in AAA, trade Carpenter to a team that would like a pinch hitter and give those ABs to him. Walker is unlike other struggling prospects this year, in that he showed in a three month run last year that he can actually hack it.
Someone just needs to put a shock collar on Marmol that goes off anytime Walker is out of the lineup
Maybe they should just trade Carpenter now. It’s not like this team looks great at the moment, and it’s not like Carpenter has been a model of consistency lately.
Maybe they should just trade
CarpenterMarmol nowYou aren’t getting anything for Carpenter, and he’s not the real problem.
Matt Carpenter has 0 trade value. No team would trade for him. It would be a DFA.
Addition by subtraction!
The feeling as a fan when they made the playoffs in 2022 was electric. They had the (as yet unannounced) mvp, arenado had his best year with the team, Pujols was a god again, and it was his and Yadi’s farewell tour. One last playoff run with these great players looked promising.
Helsley had a blister on his finger, blew the save in the 9th in game 1, and they were bounced by the Phillies the next game.
That 9th inning was like a switch was flipped. That fun season ended with a whimper, they were out of the 2023 playoff picture by mid-May, and this season has gotten off to a similar start.
They’ve won some recently, but it’s hard to ignore the feeling that the wheels have fallen off.
Masyn Winn is fun to watch though.
It was certainly a bad sign that they finished 2023 behind the Pirates. First time that’s happened this millenium.
There is something very wrong with the way this franchise has been trending since 2020. A few things to consider:
Most importantly, the Cardinals’ hitting has absolutely cratered since Jeff Albert after the 2022 season. Things have been especially bad this year, but the team was an offensive powerhouse before and even if they bounce back a bit, they’re definitely not that anymore. I don’t think this is just having less talented hitters, or them being older. A lot of players who hit well in 2022 and sort of in 2023 look seriously broken right now.
A lot of Cardinals fans have been pointing to a lot of injuries on the position player side. But at this point, I don’t think we can say that it’s “bad luck.” Either they’re not taking injury risk into account properly when scouting or their training staff is not capable of doing the right amount of injury prevention.
The pitching development has been broken for a while and this is not a “since 2020” problem in that sense, but it finally came to a head once the team traded / switched out a lot of their elite defensive players. The defense clearly was bailing out the pitchers for years, but once the defense slipped the low-strikeout pitchers got hammered. Here are their defensive ranks since 2019, with strikeout ranks in parentheses.
2019: 10th (17th)
2020: 6th (21st)
2021: 1st (30th)
2022: 6th (30th)
2023: 24th (29th)
2024: 14th (22nd) (these appear to mostly be a “Michael Siani effect” and “Sonny Gray effect”)
They had a good manager (on paper) but they fired him in 2021, IIRC because he was a terrible supervisor and other important members of the coaching staff kept leaving because of it. They replaced him with Marmol, and the team was a drama factory last year. Many of the players have had inconsistent roles, the catching situation was a mess, players seemed to get put on blast in the media.
I get that the Cardinals rely a lot on in-season attendance and that 2020 wrecked a fair number of teams’ finances for that reason but they’ve been backloading contracts (Sonny Gray, for one), and IIRC they originally got a lot of money up-front for the Arenado trade to pay down the front part of the contract. I would really like to know whether the team has stayed on the cutting edge of investing in technologies and analysts. The Athletics are a team that has really cut back in this area and it shows; I wouldn’t be surprised if the Cards’ newfound cost-consciousness extended beyond player payroll.
I don’t really think that the front office is necessarily “bad” now, but it is clear that the team is going to need to seriously reinvent themselves and that they haven’t kept up with the rest of the league. Because if they are this far behind now, they’re going to be really far behind going forward. The front office needs new ideas badly.
There are a lot of Jeff Albert theories of everything, but he was not just the hitting coach for the MLB team, he was in charge of the hitting philosophy for the organization. He elected not to return and was replaced by his assistant without much expectation of change before the 2023 season. The fall-off in hitting doesn’t seem likely to be caused by changes in management; more likely two of the team’s star players are in a decline phase and performing inconsistently and the team has gotten younger with players who have been inconsistent for the opposite reason, but the younger players were products of the Albert system themselves.
On the pitching side, the team squeezed out Mike Maddux who was seen as a more traditional coach for Blake Snell to serve as similar role as Jeff Albert served but on the pitching side. The main point of cheapness I am aware of is that the Cards have wanted to update their Spring Training facility with a pitching lab, but the Marlins with whom they share the facilities wouldn’t agree. That’s supposed to be ready next offseason I think.
The front office brought in Chaim Bloom the past offseason in an advisory role which fans hope will improve pitching development. His fingerprints might have been on helping shape the bullpen.
All of this is spot-on imo. And this is the first time I’ve seen anyone online point to the real reason Shildt was let go by the Cardinals. It wasn’t because he wasn’t enough of a yes-man for the front office – it’s because Shildt was hostile to his coaches and they threatened to leave en masse if he wasn’t replaced.
I dont think this is correct at all. Both Albert and Maddux left after the 2022 season… this was after Marmol’s first year.
So if Albert and Maddux were mad at Shildt, I guess they decided the next year it was the organization they were tired of, and not Shildt himself.
Dont take this as a defense of Shildt either, I’m pretty neutral on him overall. I think he almost got fired midway through 2021 and then had an inflated sense of importance after a historic September winning streak that didnt line up with the organization’s opinion of him. So he overplayed his hand.
This team is a lot like the Giants in the twilight of the Sabean years–teams that got by for years by cranking out 2-win players out of nowhere, by having unexpected playoff runs despite not looking like powerhouses on paper, and by keeping a lot of traditional ideas about how to run a team in place while other teams experimented with new ideas. But at some point the key players get old and you fall too far behind the rest of the league–much like Sabean, there hasn’t been a new person running things in a while. And even worse, those key players (even if they had real trade value) all have no-trade clauses, so you can’t just sell off and retool. You’re committed to winning now, while Arenado, Contreras, Gray, and Helsley are under team control.
They need pitching right now and I don’t know how they’re going to get it. Maybe there’s a team who still believes in Victor Scott or Jordan Walker like everyone saw them in the winter of 2023-2024, because you wouldn’t want to trade them unless you got someone good back. They probably need to roll the dice trading for some high-variance starters who are performing badly and hope they perform better. Someone like Framber Valdez or Kevin Gausman. And go after Jordan Montgomery and Walker Buehler in the offseason (although who knows if they would be interested in going to the Cardinals).
Who suggested to Nootbar that lowering his launch angle was the way to go? He walks and hits hard groundballs.
Do you know why somebody like Sem Robberse would have a worse 2025 projection now than he did going into the year? 17.2 K-BB would be the highest of his career.
Nice to see you, Danup.
Seconded. VIVA EL BIRDOS!
Pretty wild that in the Yadier Molina years, they averaged 2.2 extra wins over their ZiPS projection every single year. And excluding the one outlier of 2006 (where they put it all together in the playoffs and won the World Series), they averaged 3 more wins than projected. That’s 18 straight years of repeatedly beating the system! Incredible!
Yadi was so consistently awesome behind the plate, and throughout his career he’d helped the Cardinals snag extra wins through his defense and calling good games. St. Louis pitchers loved throwing to him. Now, however, while Contreras is fine (well, functional, anyway), he doesn’t have the skillset Yadi had, nor does he have the reputation with pitchers that Yadi cultivated. He’s always been a bat-first catcher.
Watch this be a reverse jinx.
Did you apologize to Ben before you slapped down his Cardinals Homerism?https://blogs.fangraphs.com/a-new-way-of-looking-at-depth/
I think there i some hope in their younger players, and some performance below their expected metrics:
Herrera age 24 wOBA .324 xwOBA .376
Nootbar 26 wOBA .322 xwOBA .383
Gorman 24 wOBA .303 xwOBA .325
Donovan 27 wOBA .303 xwOBA .325
Burleson 25 wOBA .353 xwOBA .342. OK, he has slightly outperformed. Winn has slightly outperformed but is very young.
Goldschmidt and Arrenado way putperformed their xwOBA’s in 2022. Fell back a little last year. A lot this year. A slightlt bounce back would help a lot.
Carlson continues to regress.
Edman return would help with depth. Getting Contreras back, too.
Not a ton of upside but better than what they have delieverd thus far and could squeak back into the picture.
Issue is that those aren’t the younger players. Those are the prime-aged players. And yes, they’ve underperformed as a group, but in part that is due to explainable factors (exploitable/unidimensional skill sets, injuries).
The younger players are Winn, Walker, and Victor Scott II. And they have faceplanted, outside of Winn’s unsustainable April 2024 BABIP, alongside nearly every pitcher drafted since about 2016 (seriously). The front office gambled the entire team’s competitive window on those guys being ready last year and this year, and they just aren’t.
Walker, Winn, and Scott II will probably be good someday, but by then Goldschmidt and Arenado will long have aged out, and Contreras and Gray will be on the downswing. So some of these guys really need to pop or else the franchise simply isn’t going to be competitive for the next 3-4 years.
Meanwhile, they’re out signing Lance Lynn and Kyle Gibson, despite already having Steven Matz and Miles Mikolas, because the guy they traded Arozarena for sucks, as do 4 first-round draft picks (Hudson was non-tendered, Woodford was non-tendered, Thompson, McGreevy). When they were good they were reliably drafting Flahertys and Wachas and Shelby Millers and Lance Lynns and Luke Weavers and Marco Gonzaleses in those spots: maybe not world-beaters, but pretty reliable guys with a bit of upside sprinkled on top.
It’s pretty clear that that they have a talent development problem, and maybe a talent identification problem too.
If the Cardinals are the only NL Central team projected worse in 2026 than 2024 it means the division will be awesome in 2026
It doesn’t have much to do with the article, but the suspended game from the 21st doesn’t have any information on its conclusion on the 22nd on either the live scoreboard for the 21st or 22nd or on the play log linked from the 21st.
I feel the low effort front office labeling O’Neill was pot calling the kettle black. Love his resurgence in Boston
“Nolan Gorman’s hits this year have been softer than an erotic thriller edited for network television.”
Anyone who isn’t a member already should be now.
C Contreras/Herrera
1b Walker
2b Gorman
SS Winn
3b Arenado
LF Donovan
CF Edman
RF Nootbar
DH Burleson/Contreras
That should be the 2025 STL lineup. Let the youngsters play and see what happens. Spend on starting pitching to supplement Hence, Gray, Liberatore. See what shakes out from there.
That doesn’t seem like a bad team. Of course pitching is fragile so depth and development usually matter.
Not a Cardinals fan, but, from afar it seems like they’re lost the ability to evaluate/develop young players.
They trade young guys & they immediately get better. The “top prospects” they keep disappoint..then a guy like O’Neill leaves & is really good again. Carlso was a 3 WAR player at age 22 & has regressed & been bounced around. They trade Alcantara & Gallen & both become studs, meanwhile they trade for Liberatore & he flames out.
Not sure what the answer is, but, to me it looks like they need new people running the org that can evaluate/develop better.
Certainly, trading Arozarena and Adolis Garcia didn’t help. These are usually the kinds of players that the Cardinals acquire and who become sneakily good. Imagine an outfield of Tyler O’Neill, Adolis Garcia, and Arozarena instead of the one they have right now. These are big missteps by a usually shrewd organization. I have no doubt they’ll recover in time, though. They are truly one of the paragons of how to run an organization, just like Tampa Bay and Atlanta.
Think the point of the article is that they’re no longer a paragon of how to run an organization, and are still getting away with having that reputation despite appearing to be severely behind the times relative to the rest of the league
The two main reasons the Cardinals are in this spot: the departure of Dan Kantrovitz and the awful Marcell Ozuna trade. The farm/talent evaluation hasn’t been the same since Kantrovitz left STL. And, the Cardinals rarely, if ever, traded away prized pitching prospects. But, for some reason, decided to in the Ozuna trade (Gallen & Alcantara). The future doesn’t look as bleak if you have those two young SPs in the stable.
It’s very obvious a lot of people in the comments didn’t read the entire article.
The article states, “Goldschmidt, who turns 37 in September, will be a free agent after the season … it would make sense for the Cardinals to move on from him … except, because of their uninspiring hitting prospects, the Cardinals don’t have a good option to replace even a diminished version of Goldschmidt.”
Alec Burleson can replace Goldschmidt at first base.
Or Walker
I know this is a Cardinals article, but I can’t help by be impressed by the Guardians’ rankings.
3rd, 4th, & 6th ain’t too shabby given their budget.