The Case for Noah Syndergaard
After is appeared the Mets put some more eggs in their 2020 basket by trading for Marcus Stroman, there now seems to be a pretty distinct possibility that the club is merely moving eggs around as it attempts to deal Noah Syndergaard. With the relative dearth of impact arms on the market and the decreasing likelihood of a Madison Bumgarner deal, Syndergaard could be the biggest name and best pitcher to change teams this week, even including the recently acquired Stroman. The trade package necessary to land Syndergaard should be significantly richer than the one the Mets gave up for Stroman, given Syndergaard’s relative track record, age, and the extra season of team control through 2021. As was the case with Stroman, there are some discrepancies in how good Syndergaard is as a pitcher given his 4.33 ERA.
Nobody disputes that Sydergaard was an ace for the Mets back in 2016 when he put up a six-win season with a 2.29 FIP and 2.60 ERA. He missed most of 2017 with a torn right lat muscle. In 2018, despite missing more than a month with a finger injury and a little bit of time with hand, foot, and mouth disease, Syndergaard was still one of the best pitchers in the game, posting a four-win season, a 2.80 FIP and 3.03 ERA. This season, Syndergaard’s FIP is very good, but his ERA is not. There’s a fairy simple explanation for that disparity, and for the gap between Syndergaard’s FIP and ERA throughout his career. Simply put, the Mets infield defense is very bad and has been very bad throughout the right-hander’s career:
| SS/2B/3B UZR | Rank | SS/2B/3B DRS | Rank | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2016-2019 | -36.2 | 28 | -93 | 30 |
| 2019 | -13.6 | 30 | -24 | 27 |
A .315 career BABIP, and and the lower FIP than ERA, could be an indicator that Syndergaard gives up hard contact. The Statcast numbers tend to disagree:
| BA on GB | xBA on GB | Difference | wOBA | xWOBA | Difference | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2015 | .246 | .219 | .027 | .279 | .265 | .014 |
| 2016 | .250 | .218 | .032 | .277 | .266 | .011 |
| 2018 | .232 | .216 | .016 | .286 | .268 | .018 |
| 2019 | .280 | .228 | .052 | .308 | .281 | .027 |
Syndergaard has been tormented by groundballs, and given that he’s a groundball pitcher with a 49% ground ball rate for his career, including 48% this season, a poor defense can be particularly cruel to his BABIP and helps explain the difference between his FIP and ERA. The difference between his xwOBA and wOBA this season is particularly large and matches up with the difference between his FIP at 3.64, which says he’s one of the 20 best pitchers in the game, and his ERA at 4.33, which says he’s slightly below average. Looking at his overall performance this season, Syndergaard has been very good, but there’s reason to believe he will be even better. Of course, there’s his track record of better numbers, but recent changes to his slider indicate he might be better than his overall numbers suggest right now.
Syndergaard made adjustments to his slider under new pitching coach Phil Regan, including moving his feet closer together, what Regan called “a more balanced position.” Here’s his slider in the first half:
Now here’s his slider in the second half:
While the feet being closer together isn’t something easy to see, Syndergaard’s glove does start at a higher position. Perhaps it’s more easily noticeable on the heatmaps, but he has done a better job in his last three starts of keeping the fastball out of the meatier part of the strike zone. The location of his slider of late looks much more like 2016 and 2018 than in the first half:

The velocity of his slider has been inconsistent all season and while the recent starts aren’t vintage low-90s slider Syndergaard, they are considerably better than the middle part of the season:

As for the results, Syndergaard was getting just 15% swings and misses on sliders in the first half; through three games in the second half, he’s more than doubled that mark to 31%:
| SL Usage | SL Whiff% | Overall O-Swing% | Overall O-Contact % | Overall SwStrk% | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| First Half | 10.1% | 14.6% | 30.7% | 50.0% | 11.9% |
| Second Half | 23.0% | 31.4% | 36.8% | 57.5% | 15.8% |
These numbers come with the usual small sample caveats (part of that sample was also against the Marlins, who hit like a defense-first fourth outfielder), but the results are still pretty encouraging. There’s also something to be said for Syndergaard changing his pitch mix and moving away from his sinker and to his better offerings, but keep in mind that before this season, Syndergaard had good results on his sinker, and the Mets defense has likely made the results worse than with an average defense. The sinker is also a good setup pitch for both his change and his slider, which both get very good results. And Syndergaard throws his sinker most often when behind in the count or when the count is even, so we should expect the results on the pitch to be worse based on count alone. So while Syndergaard might improve some from lessening the usage of his sinker, and it should help his strikeout rate, the effect on his ERA likely won’t be as dramatic as simply having a good defense.
As for what a team might need to give up to get Syndergaard, Marc Carig offered this assessment.
Impression is that trading for Noah Syndergaard would require a top 30 prospect and a couple of other solid pieces, one rival exec said earlier today.
— Marc Carig (@MarcCarig) July 25, 2019
Is that return reasonable? Let’s take a look at Syndergaard’s value right now based on projections. For the sake of this exercise, we’ll assume that a win on the open market is worth $9 million this year, with half a million dollar increases in the next two seasons. Syndergaard is making $6 million this season; we’ll assume he makes $10 million and $15 million the following two years, respectively. We’ll also put in a discount rate of 8% per future season to determine a present-day value of Syndergaard’s services. For projections, we’ll use Depth Charts for the rest of the season and the ZiPS three-year projections for the 2020 and 2021:
| Projected WAR | Value | Salary | Surplus | Present Value | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2019 | 1.7 | $15.3 M | $2.0 M | $13.3 M | $13.3 M |
| 2020 | 4.2 | $39.9 M | $10.0 M | $29.9 M | $27.7 M |
| 2021 | 4.1 | $41.0 M | $15.0 M | $26.0 M | $22.3 M |
| TOTAL | 10 | $96.2 M | $27.0 M | $69.2 M | $63.3 M |
For some teams, we could bump up the value of this year’s WAR, given how valuable an extra win or two might be for teams that know they need that extra win to make the postseason, or that could potentially use Syndergaard in a wild card game or short playoff series. For the sake of simplicity we will just use the numbers above. If the Mets are seeking a top-30 prospect, that basically equates to a 55 FV when we look at THE BOARD. Given that hitters are more valuable than pitchers at that level, here are the 55 FV position players who might interest the Mets.
| Name | Org | Pos | Current Level | Top 100 | FV | ETA |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Kyle Tucker | HOU | RF | AAA | 16 | 55 | 2019 |
| Luis Urias | SDP | 2B | MLB | 17 | 55 | 2019 |
| Vidal Brujan | TBR | 2B | AA | 18 | 55 | 2021 |
| Brendan Rodgers | COL | SS | MLB | 19 | 55 | 2019 |
| Joey Bart | SFG | C | A+ | 20 | 55 | 2020 |
| Luis Robert | CHW | CF | AAA | 21 | 55 | 2020 |
| Yordan Alvarez | HOU | DH | MLB | 24 | 55 | 2020 |
| Drew Waters | ATL | CF | AA | 25 | 55 | 2021 |
| Nick Madrigal | CHW | 2B | AA | 29 | 55 | 2020 |
| Jazz Chisholm | ARI | SS | AA | 30 | 55 | 2022 |
| Taylor Trammell | CIN | LF | AA | 32 | 55 | 2021 |
| Sean Murphy | OAK | C | AAA | 33 | 55 | 2019 |
| Bobby Witt Jr. | KCR | SS | R | 34 | 55 | 2023 |
| Jesus Sanchez | TBR | RF | AAA | 36 | 55 | 2020 |
| Jarred Kelenic | SEA | CF | A+ | 37 | 55 | 2021 |
| Nolan Gorman | STL | 3B | A+ | 38 | 55 | 2021 |
| Oneil Cruz | PIT | CF | A+ | 39 | 55 | 2021 |
| Alex Kirilloff | MIN | RF | AA | 41 | 55 | 2020 |
| Marco Luciano | SFG | SS | R | 42 | 55 | 2023 |
The Padres and Astros are right up there at the top with the type of prospect the Mets are interested in. The Rays, Braves, and Cardinals present other options. In terms of present value, the above players are each worth about $46 million. A pitcher at this level, like Ian Anderson or Luis Patiño, might have a value about $10 million less than the position player. The Yankees’ Deivi Garcia is a step below the players above; Syndergaard would be a steal for the Yankees if Garcia was the top player in a deal going across town. The same would be true for the Padres and Manuel Margot given his mediocre performance and three more seasons of team control while earning arbitration salaries.
If the Mets wanted a better prospect than the players above to headline the deal, a 60 FV player would be worth roughly equivalent to Syndergaard in value; unless there is a real premium on this season, it’s hard to come up with a realistic package outside of a one-for-one deal, which is becoming incredibly rare. The Mets could include Edwin Diaz and shoot for a Gavin Lux, Dustin May, or Cristian Pache, but that might limit the overall package they receive compared to trading Syndergaard and Diaz separately.
The Mets’ reported ask in a Syndergaard trade — a top-30 prospect plus a couple other pieces — is a reasonable one. That said, such a move probably wouldn’t make the Mets better in 2020. If the Mets are interested in dealing Syndergaard, the team is right to ask for a very good return, and a better one than the one they just gave the Blue Jays for Stroman. Syndergaard is a very good pitcher and a better defense alone would be enough to get him much better results on the run-prevention side. Syndergaard’s improved slider provides some hope that his strikeout rate from the first half will go up independent of any tweaks a new team might make. Any other changes a fresh start provides are likely to be icing on the cake. Syndergaard is a very good pitcher right now and could make a huge impact for just about any team over the next two-plus seasons.
Craig Edwards can be found on twitter @craigjedwards.
That ask of a Top-30 prospect made a lot more sense before the Mets, ironically, set the market for the 2nd best pitcher (behind Syndergaard) at two FV45s.
I don’t think the Stroman return impacts the Syndergaard’s market much, if at all. Thor is in a different class of pitcher than Stroman with more team control and more upside. Both have had injury concerns as well.
Stro had half or maybe even less of Thor’s current value.
In theory it should not impact the Syndergaard return, but it looks like the Padres have already refused to include Mackenzie Gore in discussions with the justification that the Stroman deal didn’t include a top-100 prospect. I don’t think it’s correct, but it definitely sets a precedent that some teams could try to exploit. If the Mets don’t get the deal they deserve, I hope they just keep Thor instead of forcing a deal that empirically makes them worse, but I have little faith in this, honestly
I think the Padres were refusing to include Gore before the Stroman deal. They don’t want to part with him for Thor, regardless of other deals.
Flip side, they just cornered the market. Don’t like the request? Fine, call the Blue… oh, wait!
I keep seeing this assertion, and am not sure why it would be true. Seems like the Mets are in the position to ask for what they want and hold on to Syndergaard unless they get something that is worth moving him. Is there some reason they should have to accept a lesser offer, or that teams should expect them to accept a lesser offer?
Mostly just because everything is pegged to “comps” in trades. If Stroman didn’t even fetch an FV50, it’s harder to make the case that market value for Syndergaard is an FV55.
I think that the Mets should absolutely keep Syndergaard if they don’t get what they want, but I also thought they should keep Syndergaard no matter what. (nobody cares what the sadtrombone thinks, episode 253)
Kyle Tucker with a 2019 ETA while Yordan has a 2020 ETA is pretty amusing
Also, while it’s possible the Mets are mostly fixated on prospects because of the team control, it makes sense that guys who graduated off prospectdom recently–in the last two years–should also be probably be considered.
Can someone explain why San Diego is interested? Not only are they going to be paying for a half season of Thor for which they will not benefit (in 2019, presumably), but they also, no matter how optimistic you are about their farm system, are not going to be projected to come within sniffing distance of the Dodgers in 2020 either. Why give up 7 years of control of a top 20 prospect for what is, in essence, one shot with Syndergaard under cost control in 2021? It just seems like, IMO, the Braves, Astros, and Twins are all much better fits than San Diego for Thor.
Because good teams can fall off in any given year for any number of reasons. San Diego clearly feels their roster is on the precipice of full blown contention based on their signings these last two off-seasons. They could be in the wild card mix in both 2020 and 2021 and Thor would certainly be an attractive SP to start in a 1 game playoff.
I don’t think the Pads should overpay for Thor now, since they would be wasting a half season of him and it might behoove them to wait until the off-season to shop for an SP. But it’s also hard to pass up potential front of the rotation talent that is under team control when it is made available. Also, unlike a lot of cost-controlled front line starters it sounds like the ask on Thor is actually something close to his actual value.
Look at the Braves last year. Weird stuff happens, guys mature faster than you expect, and teams, even teams with multiple top ten guys, fall off. Not that this is particularly likely, given how good the Dodgers are, but it took a loonnnnnng time last year for the Nats to drop below 50% winning the division last year despite basically never leading. Maybe San Diego thinks the same can happen with the West.
If so, then the time to make a splash should be next year, not this one. It’s not like Thor is the only Ace level pitcher to ever come on to the market. There are always going to be pitcher on the market: Verlander, Cole, Paxton, to name a few in recent past. If the Dodgers look vulnerable then pounce on the opportunity. Otherwise it just feels like unncessary risk.
There are a few reasons. For one thing, it’s reminiscent of the Cole Hamels deal the Rangers made in 2015. They were weighing the options given their window at the deadline, and one of the executives said “aren’t we just going to try and trade for him in the offseason anyway? Why not just go get him now?” So they did. I wouldn’t expect the Padres to make a run like the 2015 Rangers, but they certainly could. Syndergaard is a guy they’ve lusted after for a while, and they’re still going to be on him in the offseason anyway. I doubt the asking price would be significantly different, especially if he rebounds in the second half of this season. And if he doesn’t, you get a half season of data and hands-on coaching that you wouldn’t have otherwise.
For that matter, having Syndergaard already on your roster going into 2020 can make a huge difference in terms of free agent signings. I wouldn’t put the Padres at the top of the list to land Cole, but having an established ace on your roster definitely makes you more attractive to free agents, to say nothing of Hosmer, Tatis and Machado.
They’ve a nouveau riche team and they’re looking for another sports car. And they can afford it.
Except for taxes, it always puzzled me that SD isn’t a bigger destination for free agents. But I will say there are a few players (Greinke, right?) who won’t go to California because of the tax hit. They might have to pay a surplus in free agency because of that.
I think it’s because MLB Free Agents make their decisions based on dollars, and SD hasn’t historically offered the top amount.
Quality of life, all that other stuff, pales in importance.
While the Padres are very unlikely to make a run this year, I don’t see them being as far out as people think. Admittedly some of their hitters have gotten very lucky (see Tatis) others have gotten incredibly unlucky. If you sort by batted ball, guess who is #1 overall in MLB? The Franimal himself. Followed by Yelich, Cruz, Alonso, Muncy, Bellinger. Which of these things isn’t like the other? His expected batting line, as it has been basically all year is absurd 272/373/547. When you look at expected stats, the guy above him is Acuna, and the guy below him is Alonso. Freeman and Josh Bell are next to him as well. While I agree that xstats might not be perfect, it does match the eye test as well. If you have watched his at bats (I have watched every single one) and spray charts its readily apparent to me how much better he is than his results. Sure, he looks clueless sometimes, but he also young and raw. Recently he had a game where he lined out 105+ 4x (to outfielders). What are the odds of that? If he really is this monster that xstats think he is, then all of a sudden they have a top 20-40 bat with passable defense.
They also have a statcast wet dream in Franchy who hasn’t been able to play this year who has top 10 EV in MLB, along with being a top 20 runner.
Paddack/Noah then Gore, Urias, Baez etc. I would say this would be a very favorable, even likely destination for Cole. Remember there was talk of them signing both Harper and Machado?
Machado and Myers/Hosmer (lol) need to win now to justify their pay. Plus, they have Tatis, Renfroe, Reyes, Margot, Hedges, and Greg Garcia as position players (all getting better) with a rotation of Lucchesi, Paddack, Lauer, and Strahm (all getting better) and Kirby Yates as closer. Add an ace in Thor and they can be less reliant on another massive FA contract like Cole or Wheeler to get to a Wild Card. If they could headline a Thor deal with FV55 Pitcher Luis Patina, then Luis Urias fits nicely into the Padres’ lineup as well.
Myers is treading on DFA territory. He rarely starts, and I think they are starting him now in hopes of moving him in some sort of salary dump as when they thought they were still in it he didn’t start 9 out of 10 games. He desperately needs a change of scenery.
Myers is still pretty far away from DFA territory. He’s also been hitting the ball harder of late and his xWOBA is actually above average now, that’s why he’s starting, I’m sure they want to get his salary off the books but that is not why he is starting now.
The Padres offer right now is not any different than it would be in a offseason. The reason they are interested is cause they want to improve a team that looks good in 2020.
Any chance this turns into a Mets Yankees Blockbuster where both Stro and Thor go in exchange for Cruz, Andujar, and a few other young pieces? Obviously fairly unlikely, but Yanks have more expendable parts as they get healthier and must be freaking out about Paxton and Tanaka in the playoffs right about now.
Andujar SHOULD have minimal value to an NL team. He was a disaster defensively before he tore the labrum in his throwing arm… I doubt that’s going to make him better at 3B.
On the other hand, the Mets don’t seem to care about infield defense very much, so who knows.
So, uh, maybe Oakland does this? They kind of need to.
I’d give up Luzardo, Mateo and other stuff, but I appear to be in the minority
At least on the very surface this is the kind of deal they pull to move up the win curve right before the playoffs, too
Luzardo as the MLB-ready top 30 prospect starter, plus maybe Barreto, Mateo, or Dustin Fowler as an MLB ready CFer plus some lottery tickets seems like a pretty reasonable offer.
With the catching situation in Oakland and the fact that he may be ready to contribute literally tomorrow with Phegley’s injury, I don’t see Muphy as being available, but I don’t see why one of Puk or Luzardo couldn’t be.
From the A’s perspective I’d do that, but Fowler hasn’t been considered a CF for a while. He’d probably give the Mets a 43rd Corner OF.
You’re not wrong. But he could fake it out there better than Nimmo or Conforto. It’s why I think Barreto or Mateo might be a better fit, because I think either of them could comfortably fit as average or plus, respectively and they’re both right handed, but I don’t think it would be crazy to look at Fowler, squint and see an average-ish CF.
In any case, I think any of the three would fit the Mets mold as a promising young, cost controlled position player to not give playing time to while worse veterans embarrass themselves.
Do we know that he’s available, and if he is are teams not lining up?
The Padres also have RH outfield bats as well, but, unfortunately they are all defensive liabilities, so I am pretty sure the Mets are going to get one of them as well, since that seems to be their MO
Hunter Renfroe is not a defensive liability
Syndergaard has always had great BB/9 and HR/9 rates (and suppressed power numbers in general) with a very good K/9 and GB% rates. It is clear the only thing that has prevented him from being elite has been his hits/9 (other than his rookie year, it has always hovered between 8.2 and 8.7 – solid, but not great). While his poor supporting defense has been a significant contributor, it shouldn’t shoulder all the blame. Another issue of concern is that he holds runners like a sieve holds water. A good arm behind the plate (or even a decent one) would help, but watching him pitch, it is clear he pays little attention to them. He definitely can improve in both of these areas and become the ace everyone expects. Maybe a change in scenery would be good for him.
Jason Vargas is a Phillie. This probably has no impact on the Syndergaard situation.
Austin Bossart going the other way. I know nothing about the guy past his FG page but, erm, a 26 year old catching prospect without a grade isn’t encouraging? Also Bossart played college ball with Jeff Wilpon’s son which is a fun fact but not particularly telling of anything.
More detail: 2.9 Million going to the Phillies as part of the deal. What even is going on.
Why do I get the feeling that a more analytically inclined team like Houston or LAD could get him & he would all of a sudden run off a string of seasons similar to 2016?
“Before Syndergaard joined the Astros, there was zero inclination his slider would solve world hunger”
Apparently, the Astros don’t want to trade Kyle Tucker for Syndergaard. But since the Astros seem to do really great things with guys who have premium velocity, I think it would be more than worth it for them to do this.
Gerrit Cole 2.0!
I’m still throwing around a Forrest Whitley led deal for Thor. Astros get a pitcher to slot in behind Verlander and Cole this season and Cole replacement going forward. Mets get a young potential top of the rotation arm that is major league ready that would have been untouchable a few months ago.
Why do so many people believe that the Mets will trade Syndergaard? Wouldn´t it be plausible that they are piling up pitchers for next season? And they still are in the race for the wild card this year. It is unlikely that they will make the wild card, but stranger things have happened…
The reason why I think they won´t trade Syndergaard is because they made it once with a great pitching staff and only one good hitter to the World Series. People tend to stick to successful decisions, so why not try again with a great pitchers and mediocre hitters?
Why is Clint Frazier not on that list of 55 FV? Is it because he already has a fair amount of playing time? Despite it being unlikely because of the crosstown rivalry/Wilpon napoleon complex, it should still be worth mentioning I would think.
Clint Frazier is no longer a prospect. That being said I would think his value is more along the lines of a 50 FV than 55 FV given the defense and plate discipline