The Dodgers Continue to Bet on Depth
On Friday night, Zack Greinke decided to take his talents to Phoenix, joining the Arizona Diamondbacks, who are now an interesting potential contender for 2016. That decision, of course, left a significant hole in the Dodgers starting rotation, and the loss of their alternate ace has set the team down a different course. Since the Greinke news broke, they’ve struck deals with aging veterans Hisashi Iwakuma and Chase Utley, traded for Aroldis Chapman, talked to the Marlins about Jose Fernandez, were named as a suitor for Ben Zobrist, and probably have a few dozen other alternatives that haven’t leaked out to the public yet. This certainly won’t be a boring winter in Los Angeles.
But it’s certainly possible that, for the second straight winter, the Dodgers are going to choose to acquire a larger quantity of potentially good players rather than banking on the elite performances of a few high profile stars. Andrew Friedman’s roster revamp a year ago saw the team acquire guys like Brandon McCarthy, Brett Anderson, Yasmani Grandal, Jimmy Rollins, and Howie Kendrick rather than make runs at All-Stars like Max Scherzer or Jon Lester. And then the Dodgers essentially affirmed that philosophy in July, when they were heavily linked to Cole Hamels, but chose to make a deal that brought in Alex Wood and Mat Latos instead. Capping their offer to Greinke at $160 million might have been surprising for a team that has seemingly unlimited payroll space, but while the Dodgers have spent extensively on acquiring young talent (particularly in the international market), this front office has not shown an inclination to pay a premium for high-end veterans.
In MLB, there are essentially two competing schools of thought about how to best construct a roster. The so-called Stars-and-Scrubs method is based around creating a core of elite players, then dumpster diving for role players in an effort to fill out the roster with minimal payroll commitments. The Detroit Tigers under Dave Dombrowksi were often the most obvious example of this philosophy, riding to the postseason on the backs of guys like Miguel Cabrera, Justin Verlander, and Prince Fielder, but often finding themselves also leaning on guys like Delmon Young, Ramon Santiago, and Don Kelly in critical situations. Recent Brewers teams have also been stars-and-scrubsy, and the 2015 White Sox were an extreme version of this concept, with Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, and Jose Abreu surrounded by a bunch of guys for whom scrubs might even be too kind a term.
On the other end of the spectrum, but without a catchy short-hand name for the philosophy, are teams who prioritize avoiding obvious weak spots on their roster, spreading the money around to a variety of players. This balanced approach to roster construction is often born of necessity, as lower-revenue clubs can’t afford the long-term commitments that are attached to signing the best free agents, so they shop in the discount aisle to keep their financial flexibility in tact. The Kansas City Royals just won the World Series with no player making more than $12.5 million in salary, and the A’s have had a long run of success by using their best players as trade chips to acquire another wave of young talent to replenish the roster.
Both models can work, and there are examples of both types of teams winning the World Series in recent years. There are also examples of both types of teams failing, though, and certainly, the balanced roster approach is a more difficult sell to the fanbase in the winter than simply introducing a premier player as evidence of the team’s attempts to improve. The Dodgers have taken a lot of flak for their approach over the last year, and the failures of guys like Latos and Wood didn’t help the perception that the organization is simply outsmarting itself, and would do better to just focus on acquiring the best players on the market without continually searching for value at every corner. It certainly is a bit of a change to see a team with more financial resources than any other club drawing firm lines in the sand on player valuation, rather than using their big stack of chips to push around other teams and end up with the pick of the litter.
But it appears that the Dodgers perspective on roster construction leans pretty heavily towards the balanced approach. While Greinke likely could have given them something like +5 WAR 2016 for the $30 to $35 million in salary he would have required, the Dodgers instead will look to get +2-3 WAR out of Iwakuma for $15 million, then invest the other $15 million in a secondary player (or two) to make up the gap. Aroldis Chapman, acquired this morning to bolster the bullpen, will make about $13 million in his final trip through arbitration, so their two pitching acquisitions made since Greinke signed with Arizona still cost a little bit less than Greinke would have by himself. Adding in the $7 million that they gave to Chase Utley gets them just slightly north of what Arizona will pay Greinke next year, so from one perspective, this decision could be seen as the Dodgers trading Greinke and two prospects for Iwakuma, Chapman, Utley, and the prospect they’ll get from giving Chapman a qualifying offer next year.
Between Iwakuma, Chapman, and Utley, the Dodgers should get something in the +5 to +6 WAR range next year, maybe even pushing +7 WAR if Utley and Iwakuma prove healthier than they were a year ago. That’s basically the same range as you’d expect from Greinke and a couple of replacement level players, and for the same $35 million in 2016 salary, so the Dodgers aren’t so much saving money with this trio as they are avoiding a long-term commitment to a declining asset. But to avoid paying those extra decline years to Greinke, the team sacrifices two roster spots in the process, theoretically making it more difficult to upgrade the team’s ceiling by filling out the roster with good-but-not-great players.
This is the primary argument in favor of the stars-and-scrubs philosophy; the value of consolidating value into a single roster spot comes from the ability to replace the replacement level scrub with a decent role player. Rather than Greinke and two +0 WAR players, the Dodgers could get up to +8 or +9 WAR if it was Greinke and two league average players, and there are more league average players than stars, so the theory argues that it’s more important to focus on getting the elite player first and worry about finding the average role players later.
Of course, those average players aren’t going to be free, and the price for decent role players is skyrocketing right now. With even back-end innings sponges or platoon-player fourth outfielders like Mike Pelfrey and Chris Young getting multiple years for $6 to $8 million apiece, it’s not really fair to expect a team to be able to find valuable contributors who can actually contribute for the league minimum. While Greinke plus a couple of +2 WAR players has a higher upside than the Iwakuma/Chapman/Utley trio, it’s also going to cost more, requiring even further talent depletion if the team attempted to trade for those decent role players instead of signing them on the open market.
While the talent pyramid philosophy — a thin group up top with a thick base of supply near the bottom — has long held significant sway, the reality of the market in MLB right now is that, with nearly every team seeing themselves as contenders, there is more than enough demand for the lower-to-mid-tier players to get paid real money. When guys like J.A. Happ are landing $36 million in guaranteed money, it’s tough to argue that there’s an abundant supply of solid depth pieces who can be acquired on the cheap. And while there’s more upside to going with star-scrub-scrub based on potential upgrades at a later point, there’s also significantly more risk in consolidating value into fewer players rather than spreading it around across multiple players.
And when you’re already a contender with significant upside pieces on the roster, minimizing risk may be more important than raising the ceiling even further. There are diminishing returns on wins beyond 93 or so, and at around that point, it’s almost certainly better to narrow your range of outcomes rather than simply pushing the ceiling ever higher. Maybe losing Greinke and replacing him with three lesser pieces reduces the Dodgers upside a bit, but by spreading the risk across multiple players, it also likely increases their floor to a similar degree. The Dodgers balanced roster approach is less likely to make them a dominant 100 win team, but it also makes them less likely to be a flameout 75 win team win as well.
There’s positives and negatives to both approaches. Just like with players, there’s always a tradeoff between potential versus certainty. The Dodgers roster construction philosophy is more akin to drafting polished players with fewer physical tools over going after athletes who need to figure out how to play baseball. Every decision is a balance of risk and reward, and the Dodgers decided that the Diamondbacks offer to Greinke pushed the scales towards the balanced roster approach for this winter. That decision will almost certainly have its detractors, but with some elite talents already in place and a roster that looks like a contender even without Greinke, there’s nothing wrong with making moves to make sure that the team’s season doesn’t get sunk by having to rely on Carlos Frias again.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Yay! They talked to players, unlike nearly every other team in MLB.
“…larger quantity of potentially good players rather than banking on the elite performances of a few high profile stars…”
Makes sense with Chapman.
They didn’t trade from any major league depth to get him and he joins a team that already has an elite closer.
How does depth not apply to this deal?
It’s a complete clusterf**k.
This is a complete klusterf**k.
Just because you’re shooting for depth overall doesn’t mean you can’t also acquire really good players. It’s not like Friedman is trying to sell off Kershaw because he’s too dominant for their model. Chapman is cheap in terms of $$$ and the Dodgers have plenty of prospects. He fits the bill of relatively inexpensive players that can continue to add ammunition to an already fine position.
Yeah, but can he HIT? Nature.
Did I not understand your sentence about comparing the value between Greinke vs Chapman etc., or did you not include the part where the Dodgers also get a prospect QO since the Dbacks signed Greinke?
No, because they also lose a draft pick for signing Iwakuma, so it’s a wash…
?
Not that it will happen, but it would be ballsy if the Dodgers attempted to let Chapman start, which could make this an absolute jackpot for them while giving them some legit starting depth. Worst case scenario (injuries aside), he flops and can go back to the BP.
That Worst case sceanrio is basically Feliz 2.0 Not only will he go back to the BP, he will be less effective in the BP afterward.
Feliz got hurt, hence my injuries aside clause.
converting closer into starters carries significant injury risk, not something you can just waive through a statement.
Yeah, no way Chapman agrees to that in a walk year. Not with the type of money relievers are getting now.
Have you seen the money starters are getting?
Established starters*
Sure Chapman could go Chris Sale and get 30 mil.
Or he could keep doing what he’s done, with much less risk, and still make a boatload of money. At the rate theses contracts are going, would it be all that crazy to see Chapman get a 100 million?
Too many Daniel Bards, and Neftali Feliz to risk that. Maybe if he’s a rookie making league min, not when he’s a year away from becoming stupid rich.
It would be crazy for Chapman to get 100 mil. And I’d hardly consider JA Happ an “established starter”. I mean it is established that he’s a starter, but he has half a season-ish of being good and got 12 a year. If Chapman pitched 150 innings of 4 era ball with good peripherals, he’d definitely get at least 15 million a year, given age and upside. I realize this isn’t going to happen, but to suggest the financials will stop him from wanting the transition is a weak argument.
It’s not strictly financial. It’s that he is in a position where it’s silly to take on any sort of risk.
Right now his only risk is injury. I don’t think it would be wise for a guy that throws 60 innings to try to increase that to 150 in a walk year.
Then you factor in performance risk, maybe a small factor, but one that doesn’t really apply to Chapman the reliever. For a kid that is about to be richer than he’s ever been, it makes no sense to take on any additional risk.
I think the worst case scenario is worse than that.
It is shittyy we never got to see this experiment though. Who knows if he could throw enough strikes but even at 95/96, with his repertoire, he’s got Chris Sale upside.
The reason Aroldis Chapman IS an elite closer is because he FAILED at being a starting pitcher so the Reds moved him to the Bullpen.
If you’re lucky, you could convert him to be a #5/Spot Start guy, which are a dime a dozen and waste of his closing capabilities. Chris Sale upside is HUGE stretch.
I love it, a team with money, a team with smarts and it just so happens to be my team! Most casual fans are busy whining, but it’s a dream come true for me.
Yep. Small market front office thinking with big market dollars. I think LA was smart to bail on Greinke’s contract demands. Too much risk. Too much potential downside. As a dodger fan, what do you think of the opt out in the first place? There was a raging debate about its inclusion in Price’s deal. Just curious about the perspective of a fan who has now experienced that process.
There is no question in my mind that I would have loved to have Greinke on the remaining 3/71 he opted out of. Therefore, the opt-out was clearly a benefit to Greinke and a detriment to the team compared to the same contract with no opt-out. The opt-out is a team selling some chance of upside to reduce risk of downside, by lowering the maximum commitment. Because of the opt-out, the team definitely has missed some chance of upside.
However, as a general strategy, I think it is prudent to sell upside for reduced downside, especially when it comes to older pitchers on long contracts. I’m not going to say that it was a bad move to give him the opt-out based on hindsight, but I do think this provides a clear example of how the opt-out, on it’s own, is not good for the team, and is only good for them if they receive something of equal value in exchange.
Carlos Frias wasn’t bad last year. He made 13 starts and was better than Tim Hudson, Tim Lincecum, Jon Niese, Doug Fister, Jeremy Hellickson, Steve Cishek, Jonathan Broxton, Trevor Cahill, Ian Kennedy, Ryan Vogelsong, Kyle Kendrick and quite a few other guys with 7-8 figure salaries.
Yeah, Frias is nice depth for the Dodgers. Career FIP of 4.11 in 110 IP. Could be a #4 starter.
No, Frias is terrible. He cannot reliably pitch 5+ innings, which is what a starter needs to do. He got hit hard and chased from games early far too often to be counted on in the rotation.
He averaged almost 6 innning per start last season. I’d say terrible is an exaggeration.
On second thought, you may be right. He did pitch some games out of the bullpen.
I’d say he probably still averaged about 5+ innings per start last season.
There’s a lot of room between “not an average MLB starter” and “terrible.”
I doubt the Dodgers are done upgrading starting pitching, but, if they are, he is the five starter (Kershaw, Iwakuma, Wood, Anderson) and you only need him for 5 innings, if not less. 5 from Frias, two from the combo of Baez, Yimi, Alivan, Hatcher, whoever else is being shuttle from AAA. (Maybe Hatcher gets the 7th.) An innings for Kenley, an inning for Chapman.
I’m pretty sure Ryu is expected to be back and ready for Spring Training, but if he isn’t, you’re right. Frias could pitch 171 innings next season (~5.35 x 32) and each of the relievers would only have to pitch an extra ~4 innings over the course of the season to make up the difference of him not pitching 200 innings. Of course, small sample size and nobody knows how he’ll perform over the course of a full season, but all indications are that he’ll do just fine.
Actually, it’s probably ~3 extra innings from the relievers because if he averaged 6 innings per start, he’d only pitch 192 innings. So the difference between 171 (his average per start last season projected over 32 starts) and 192 is only 21 innings. 7 relievers = 3 extra innings. That’s almost nothing. And his career performance suggests he has #4 ability.
You want to plan on a 5th starter going only 5 every time and then let the bullpen pick up the slack every 5th day? That’s a horrible strategy. Major league teams do not operate that way.
Did you guys actually watch Frias pitch? “Mike” is clearly just looking at his stats, which are misleading. Check his walks and hits if you need to look at stats. His WHIP was almost 1.5. He routinely got pulled after allowing too many baserunners.
Frias is garbage and there is no chance they will rely on him in the rotation. He was used out of desperation in 2015 and he was a disaster. That was very clear if you watched his games. He does not have #4 starter ability. That’s a joke.
It’s a valid strategy since the extra innings from the relievers project to be insignificant, he only started 2 games last season in which he didn’t pitch 5 full innings, and his FIP and xFIP were #4 quality and his career FIP and xFIP are just as good. Even with his high WHIP last season, his ERA was only 4.06. His career WHIP and ERA are fine for a #5. And since when has appealing to the way major league organizations run their teams ever been an argument? There are still teams who routinely run their low-OBP guys lead-off in the lineup which makes no sense.
I’ve read all the arguments for and against depth vs. starsnscrubs, but nothing will convince me that paying market price for 1-2war players is something a talented GM does.
In fact to me that is the most important GM skill – getting mediocre bottom roster guys at significantly lower than market value. A good gm should be ae to do that year in year out.
Of course getting stars on cheap contracts is the ideal situation but imo there’s a ton of luck involved in that, even for a good scouting and development team.
as for the dodgers – not paying $35m for a 32yr old projected for 4war in the first year of 6 is probably a smart move no matter what your team building strategy is. and we should note that it was the stars that made the dodgers pitchint so good last year, while their offense was weak precisely due to their lack of offensive stars.
How was the Dodgers offense weak last year? They had the highest woba in the NL last season.
This is the most unfathomable narrative to come out of the disaster that was the Dodgers not winning the world series last year.
More like winning just 92 games in a weak division while fielding a $300 million team and losing in the 1st round. It is true that they didn’t win the World Series, but you severely understate just how hard they not won it.
92 wins is good, the division was actually ok, the team payroll is extremely misleading insofar as it applies to the strength of the 2015 team, and they lost by one run in the sudden-death game of the series. Your bias is tiresome.
Another person who reads the spreadsheets and accepts them as the gospel. Their wOBA dominance was borne from an excellent April.
Dodger wOBA by month:
April – .354
May – .322
June – .325
July – .311
Aug. – .313
Sept. – .312
The league leader in wOBA turned into a league average offense in the 2nd half of the season, thanks to cataclysmic collapses from Pederson and Grandal; significant declines from Gonzalez and Turner; the injury to Howie Kendrick.
If the offense at its worst is league average, then that is actually a really good way of saying it’s pretty strong.
What is wrong with you people? Why do people feel the need to twist facts to support some irrational hatred of a team?
The Dodger players had several injuries (or played injured) for much of the year and especially down the stretch including Grandal, Kendrick, Turner, Puig, and Kike. The first 4 are certainly all very important offensively. Pederson is the one starter that fell off badly. Probably not as good as his first half numbers, but not as bad as his 2nd half numbers either. Irrespective, he is an very good in CF. Guerrero outdid himself early in the season. So was April a little high, YES. However, the last 3 months are certainly low.
In 2015, they paid McCarthy and Anderson what amounted to 75% of Scherzer’s AAV and got 20% of his production. Yes, they got to avoid the last couple of years of Scherzer’s contract, but only by paying for it right away. And now the Dodgers are poised to repeat this clever move. Someone needs to remind Friedman he is not in Tampa Bay anymore.
They paid that % of his AAV, but they committed, in total, less than 1/3 of what the Nationals did. And, those two contracts are well chosen for your point, considering Scherzer had one of his best years, which could have happened but also could have not happened, and Brandon McCarthy was essentially a zero, because of an injury to a part of his body which had never before sustained such an injury, and which, based on past results, likely won’t prevent him from producing value over the remaining three years.
Yeah, and if Scherzer had a 5 WAR season instead, or if the Dodgers had gone for the other big name option in Lester, the return still would’ve been over double what the Dodgers got from ‘betting on depth.’ And even as Scherzer and Lester age, the Dodgers would have done better with those two than pouring that money into even riskier options.
The reason teams like Tampa Bay can’t sign Price or Scherzer as FA is because a) they don’t have the money and b) a bust on such an investment would be catastrophic for them. That is not the case for the Dodgers.
And I don’t know what past results you are looking at, but Brandon McCarthy’s aren’t very encouraging to say the least.
Brandon McCarthy had Tommy John surgery, which has a pretty good outlook these days. I’m assuming you have his private medical info though and know better?
BM needs to produce like 7 WAR to be worth the deal. That was always a very reasonable projection, even factoring in a relatively pessimistic outlook on his health, and it still is.
I’m a little astounded at the other point you’re making though. You look at the history of nine-figure deals across baseball, and you think wow that looks great more teams should do that? You think that because Lester and Scherzer both had first good years that we now know their contracts were worth it? That’s precisely what is wrong with these long contracts. Even a good first one or two seasons is still not nearly enough to make them a good investment. The Nats are paying Scherzer like a guy who is going to be healthy every year, and really good every year for seven years. The Dodgers are paying Brandon McCarthy to be a guy who is sometimes hurt and is pretty good when he’s not, and for three fewer years.
Pelfrey is a pitcher, not an outfielder.
Well at least he’s a starter, not a back-inning sponge.