The Dodgers’ Decision To Be Intentionally Inefficient

Last week, when discussing the Dodgers second base options, I talked about Logan Forsythe as a reasonable alternative to Brian Dozier, a similar player on a similar contract, but finished the section with this reason why I thought maybe they should look elsewhere.

I could potentially see a Forsythe deal working if the Dodgers were floating some pieces that could help Tampa Bay maintain the status quo and give them some long-term value, but Forsythe isn’t good enough to extract Jose De Leon, and I’m not sure the Rays really need more pitching depth.

Well, yesterday, the Dodgers traded De Leon for Forsythe in a one for one swap, so the Dodgers decided I was wrong about that whole “not good enough” part. While they deemed the Twins asking price of De Leon and something else of substantial value too high for Dozier, they were willing to part with one of the game’s best young pitchers in order to land Dozier-Lite. And as you probably guessed based on my write-up last week, that decision surprised me a bit.

Jeff did a good job of showing why the Dodgers viewed Forsythe and Dozier as similar enough to go with door #2 when they found the Twins asking price too high, but in all of the recent talk we’ve done about how comparable some of their rate stats are, there’s something that we should make sure doesn’t get lost: Dozier is better than Forsythe.

In both of our write-ups, Jeff and I showed how Forsythe has looked a lot like Dozier the last two years. The reason we didn’t go back the normal three years, though, is that in 2014, Dozier was amazing — he put up +4.7 WAR in 707 plate appearances — while Forsythe was a sub-replacement level player, a guy who ran a 78 wRC+ and was a liability in the field. Forsythe has made substantial enough changes that it’s easy to buy into the fact that he’s a different hitter now, but that doesn’t eliminate the fact that he’s only been a productive player for the last two years, while Dozier has been an above average player each of the last four years, and a star for each of the last three.

It’s tempting to point to Dozier’s late career breakout as reason to think that Forsythe’s career up to 2014 isn’t relevant anymore, but the reality is that we necessarily have to have fewer reasons for optimism about Forsythe than we do about Dozier, because his track record of success is half as long. Forsythe looks like Dozier if you squint, but I feel like it’s important to point out that he isn’t yet at Dozier’s level by any reasonable objective standard.

The projections, likewise, don’t see two similarly valuable players. Steamer projects Dozier for +2.8 WAR per 600 PA, while they have Forsythe at +2.2 WAR per 600 PA. ZIPS sees both as more valuable players, but maintains the same gap, with Dozier at +3.9 WAR/600, and Forsythe at +3.0 WAR/600. That’s nearly an extra win that both systems think Dozier will add in 2017 and 2018, and would have made Dozier an upgrade over what the Dodgers already had in a way that Forsythe is not. And that’s equalizing the PAs, which isn’t fair to Dozier, who has been one of the most durable players in the game the last three years, while Forsythe has only played more than 130 games in a season once in his career.

So, while I enjoyed Jeff’s piece and his catchy headline, I think it’s worth pointing out that it’s not entirely accurate. The Dodgers acquired “basically Brian Dozier” in the same way that Jose De Leon is basically Stephen Strasburg. If we’re discounting the value of big league track records by equating Forsythe and Dozier, then we have to also acknowledge that De Leon’s forecasts made him a highly valuable asset, which is why the Rays were willing to trade Forsythe for a pitcher they didn’t really need even though they don’t really have a second baseman to replace him.

The Rays looked at De Leon as a piece too good to pass up for a good-not-great second baseman under control for just two more seasons. And while health is obviously going to be a huge factor here, I think that’s pretty much the right assessment; when you can land a pitcher who Steamer projects as a +4 win starter right now — assuming he was able to throw 200 big league innings in 2017 anyway — for a guy who is more of a nice piece than a franchise building block, you have to do it.

Now, there are plenty of reasons to think that Steamer is too high on De Leon. The breaking ball isn’t great, and he’s probably going to have a home run problem in the big leagues. The durability is an open question. There are risks here, but the projections are so good that you can’t reasonably walk De Leon back into a position where he isn’t one of the game’s most valuable young arms. He looks, mostly, like a big league ready pitcher, and maybe a really good one.

So why’d the Dodgers trade six years of a high-value asset for two years of a guy who, in a vacuum, might not actually be all that more valuable? The easy answer is that they needed a second baseman, and they had enough pitching. They traded from significant depth to fill a hole, and that’s part of the point of stockpiling players, so that you can make a move like this when you’re in a win-now position. But while that explanation is true-ish, it also rings a bit hollow, because there isn’t a team in baseball — the Dodgers included — that couldn’t have gotten real value from De Leon this year.

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The Dodgers’ pitching depth, after all, is based on a lot of things going right. If Clayton Kershaw’s back doesn’t act up again, and if Rich Hill stays healthy, and if Kenta Maeda — who one friend in the game told me last year had “the worst medicals we’ve ever seen” — doesn’t miss time, and if Julio Urias doesn’t run into an innings limit, and if the team can find a viable fifth starter from the pile of rehabbers they have collected, then they wouldn’t have room for De Leon in the rotation. At least, assuming the projections are wrong and De Leon isn’t just better than those guys anyway.

But there’s just no way all those guys are going to stay healthy. The Dodgers used 15 starting pitchers last year, and this group didn’t get more durable by getting a year older. Maybe De Leon was #7 or #8 on the depth chart headed into the spring, but that still put him in line for something like 100 innings in the rotation, given how these things usually play out.

And even if De Leon hadn’t been able to crack the team’s rotation, it’s still not really true that they didn’t need him. Because, right now, the team’s best non-Jansen right-handed reliever is Pedro Baez. They’re currently projected to give a bunch of medium-leverage innings to Josh Fields. Say what you want about the Dodgers rotation depth, but this is a team that could use a dynamite reliever, and the easiest way to find yourself a dynamite reliever is to take a two-pitch starter with health issues and tell him to throw 15-20 pitches an outing instead.

Maybe moving De Leon to the bullpen would have been a waste of his potential, but the price of good relievers has gone up astronomically, and if he turned into a dynamite bullpen arm, six years of a lights-out setup guy is probably still more valuable than two years of a good-not-great second baseman. The idea that the Dodgers turned a guy they didn’t need into a guy they did is an easy story to tell, but it doesn’t really look to be true; they turned a guy they can more easily replace into something that was harder to find internally, but the long-term price of doing so looks substantial.

Five paragraphs ago, I asked why the Dodgers did this, and I haven’t really answered that question yet. One potential answer could be that their medical staff doesn’t like his chances of staying healthy long-term, and so they’re trading him before another few DL stints makes him less valuable than he is now. But I don’t know that Friedman would stick his old friends in Tampa Bay with something he thinks is likely to break, and in general, predicting future health is really hard.

So, I think the answer can be summarized in this comment from Andrew Friedman during the winter meetings.

Since Friedman arrived in LA, the team has operated as rationally as any organization in baseball. They’ve stockpiled talent, built an impressive farm system, and created a team that is in position to win now and in the future. But over in Chicago, there stand the Cubs. The Cubs are equally rational, equally talented, and equally young. They’re also a well-financed big market team that will be able to keep their young stars around, and afford to acquire new ones. The Cubs aren’t going anywhere.

If the Cubs were in the A.L., maybe the Dodgers don’t make this trade. But for the foreseeable future, the Dodgers have to build a team not just good enough to win the NL West, but to reasonably be able to go up against Chicago in the postseason and like their chances. And because the Cubs are so good, your options are to either build a behemoth or to hope you get lucky.

I think Friedman is trying to do the latter. Forsythe does make the Dodgers better in 2017 than keeping De Leon would have. Even if it’s not a big difference, every little upgrade matters. This is the kind of finish-off-a-roster move that you make when you’re pretty confident that the guy you’re getting can help you in the postseason. De Leon’s utility in October is less certain, but the Dodgers look like huge favorites to win the NL West again, and now they have a good right-handed hitting second baseman to give them a better chance to score runs against the Cubs in October.

These types moves are dangerous. This is the kind of move that, once in a while, turns into an embarrassing disaster that fans talk about for a decade. If De Leon turns into what the projections think he might turn into, Forsythe can’t do anything to make this a good deal. These are the kinds of trades you don’t really want to make.

But sometimes, you have the best pitcher in baseball in the prime of a Hall of Fame career, a team around him that projects for 95 to 100 wins, and you still aren’t confident you’re the best team in your own league. And that’s when rationality gets frustrating, because at the end of the day, the goal is to win, and there’s a beast of a team in Chicago that stands in the Dodgers’ way of winning. You don’t want to go into that fight less armed that you could have been, and so, you make a move that you hope helps you while praying it doesn’t come back to bite you.

I’d bet the Dodgers wished they didn’t have to make this trade. I’d bet that, internally, their calculations agree that they lost this deal in terms of single-player value. But while cold rationalization is often the best defense against emotional mistakes, as Friedman said, there is a time and place for both. And because the Cubs exist, the Dodgers need to take some risks and hope they work out. This is one of those.

De Leon could make this deal a disaster from LA’s perspective, but if Forsythe provides enough short-term value that they can get past the Cubs in either of the next two years, they’ll comfort themselves with the warmth of a World Series appearance, and maybe a big shiny trophy. Deals that require postseason success to work out are the worst kinds of trades to make, but the best kind of trades to have to make. The Dodgers have already built a winner; with this kind of trade, they’re trying to build a champion.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

77 Comments
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southie
9 years ago

Maeda a ticking time bomb? Like Tanaka?

Kevin O'Sullivan
9 years ago

“The reason we didn’t go back the normal three years, though, is that in 2014, Dozier was amazing — he put up +4.7 WAR in 707 plate appearances — while Forsythe was a sub-replacement level player, a guy who ran a 78 wRC+ and was a liability in the field.”

Kudos for the critique on mentioning two years of stats instead of the usual three. I think it’s a classic case of using numbers to prove a point instead of letting the numbers tell the story and it’s one that analytically-inclined pieces are too often guilty of

El Diablo
9 years ago

Is it possible that teams’ scouting departments might just not view De Leon the same way as the projection systems? Prospect evaluators have never put him on quite the same level as ZIPS/Steamer. A good prospect to be sure but not quite as valuable as others thought.

stonepie
9 years ago
Reply to  El Diablo

yes, that’s what im going with as well. similar to the eaton trade- one team wasn’t as high on a prospect as another.

Seamaholic
9 years ago
Reply to  El Diablo

Yes this. Cameron apparently has a high eval of De Leon, which is his right and I’m in no position to argue. But it’s hardly consensus. The Dodgers themselves consider him only their 3rd or 4th best SP prospect. He’s older (25 this year), has had shoulder problems, and there’s a funny feeling that a lot of his K’s have come from a polished change-up that won’t work nearly as well in the majors.

The Puck
9 years ago
Reply to  Seamaholic

Sickels is high on De Leon, MLB had him as the #33 prospect (#7 overall pitching prospect). He was a Top 30 prospect going into 2016 according to BA, BP and MLB. Cameron has hardly been on an island by himself.

output gap
9 years ago

Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman

Epstein: “If not now, when?”

jiveballer
9 years ago
Reply to  output gap

Soler for Davis, as well.

Fancy Britches
9 years ago

Mommy and Daddy are fighting! Or cordially & professionally disagreeing over a nuance; either way!

bunslow
9 years ago
Reply to  Fancy Britches

Which of them are the mommy and daddy in this case? For you know… reasons

Josh-
9 years ago

Seems there is a consensus forming among championship contenders on how to do teambuilding around the margins. The Red Sox have made a few trades like this. Espinoza for Pomeranz especially comes to mind, but the Sale and Thornburg trades represent overpays for premium commodities.

The Friedman quote, that teams who are rational about every free agent will come in third on every free agent, rings true. It suppose it could easily be amended to “teams who are rational about every player fail to acquire the players they need.” Incidental to this, though, is that teams must already be good and have a supply of minor league assets before they can employ this strategy. It also have negative long term ramifications we don’t realize yet.

bananas
9 years ago
Reply to  Josh-

Teams like the Dodgers, Cubs, and Red Sox have enough margins to be inefficient at these levels. These teams can endure a few bad contracts and still afford to sign Kershaw / Price / Lester. Giving up a few million of surplus value won’t really effect the way the Dodgers approach the upcoming Harper / Machado / Kershaw free agent superstar extravaganza.

Meanwhile for the Rays, that potential for a few extra million surplus value is vital to their ability to compete.

HarryLives
9 years ago

Reading this, I do wonder how different this article might have read if a team that didn’t have as great a reputation as the Dodgers among blogging sabermetricians had made the deal? Dave seems to be approaching this from the angle of “well this looks dumb, but the Dodgers aren’t dumb, so let’s see why maybe this isn’t dumb.” Would the Rockies have been afforded the same treatment?

BryzMember since 2019
9 years ago
Reply to  HarryLives

If the Rockies were fighting against the Cubs to go to the World Series, probably.

Seamaholic
9 years ago
Reply to  HarryLives

The Rockies aren’t known as particularly anti-sabre, not at all. Their GM came from their analytics department.

Johnny Dickshot
9 years ago
Reply to  HarryLives

Doesn’t seem like Dave (or Jeff) is saying it looks “dumb” – basically, it looks like splitting hairs on how to treat Forsythe’s 2014 season and how that season affects his projections going forward. While of course there are general rules for how past seasons should be incorporated into players’ projections, every player is different and here we have a significant discrepancy between Forsythe’s 2014 season and his 2015-2016 seasons. I don’t know why that it is, but I would bet that the Dodgers (or other teams looking to trade for Forsythe) have studied the issue and that their projections have been adjusted accordingly.

Kenny OckerMember since 2020
9 years ago

You say there’s nothing Logan Forsythe can do if Jose de Leon exceeds his potential, but there is one (or two) things that would take the sting right out of it: World Series titles.

(I think. As a Mariners fan, I have no way to know.)

TommyLasordid
9 years ago
Reply to  Kenny Ocker

“Because at the end of the day, the goal is to win.”

That pretty much sums it up. The goal is to win games, not have a collection of assets with the highest projected value, regardless of whether those assets create a team with the best chance of winning. I would contend (though it’s not a given) that the Dodgers have the best chance of winning in the next two years with Forsythe rather than De Leon. That’s the gamble Friedman and Co. are making.

RonnieDobbs
9 years ago

This is a weird article. It feels like it is about the author and defense of his opinions as opposed to any new content.

booj11
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

i get that he doesn’t want to step on toes in contesting the thesis of another author’s work.

JUICEMANE
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

you’re exactly right and its about half of his articles

Ryan DCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  RonnieDobbs

So? Analysis is analysis.

JUICEMANE
9 years ago
Reply to  Ryan DC

that’s like saying pussy is pussy…so no…

Rahul Setty
9 years ago
Reply to  JUICEMANE

Sorry what?

RonnieDobbs
9 years ago
Reply to  Ryan DC

Yeah, I agree with that to an extent. For a data-driven community, it seems awfully petty. But sure, it is analysis.

I just thought it was pretty hack-ish in a click-bait, fake news kind of sense and deserved a comment. Honestly, I never expected any up-votes.

booj11
9 years ago

I mean, isn’t the marginal difference between Forsythe and Dozier a lottery pick prospect at least?

BubbaMember since 2016
9 years ago

Still not sure about this move. If they really wanted to be inefficient to build a behemoth, pay a little bit more for Dozier! This seems like a half measure that, given they would probably get ~100 quality innings out of De Leon, doesn’t improve them that much.

ppzahka
9 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

Dozier is .6 WAR better than Forsythe according to Steamer and .9 WAR better according to ZIPS. That’s a improvement but certainly not one to justify including Bellinger or Alvarez..both arguably better prospects than JDL.

mininimi
9 years ago
Reply to  ppzahka

Yes but Forsythe is probably about a win better than the internal options of chris taylor and enrique hernandez, or signing Chase Utley for one more go around. If you believe that this trade is good, then including another De Leon level piece (maybe a Verdugo or Calhoun+Buehler) to get Dozier is worth it by the same logic

piddy
9 years ago
Reply to  Bubba

Nobody really knows what the Twins were asking for Dozier or what the Dodgers were willing to give. There was a fair amount of talk that the Twins wouldn’t settle for “a little bit more” than De Leon.

TommyLasordid
9 years ago

The fact this deal went down makes me think that Minnesota must have been asking for a major second piece (Bellinger? Alvarez? Verdugo?) as their De Leon+ demands. Because, yes, Dozier > Forsythe. So the Dodgers turned to door #2 and got a solid second baseman, a lead-off hitter and someone who can hit left-handers. Three pressing needs addressed in one clean move at the cost of a pitching prospect that, while potentially great, was not really needed. Among Stewart, McCarthy, Wood, Stripling, Dejong, etc., they should have sufficient rotation pieces to back up Kershaw, Hill, Maeda, Urias and Kazmir. And if they need to, they still have plenty of bullets to trade for a starter at the trade deadline. Good move by both teams.

Jonathan
9 years ago
Reply to  TommyLasordid

The Twins may very well have asked for a moderate piece, but the Dodgers felt it not worth it. If offered, for example Stewart & Logan or Dozier, I’d prefer diversifying risk and having more pitching depth.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
9 years ago

Why make this trade now?

They should coast to the division title, so why not wait until the trade deadline unless you think DeLeon isn’t good/is a medical problem?

johansantana17Member since 2026
9 years ago

They think De Leon isn’t good/is a medical problem.

piddy
9 years ago

Because the cost could go up at the deadline?

jdbolickMember since 2024
9 years ago

Because De Leon didn’t project to make the Dodgers’ rotation and therefore was unlikely to increase his value while you never assume that you will “coast to the division title.

Mike DMember since 2016
9 years ago

I realize he’s 38 but why not re-sign Utley to a one-year deal to be the primary 2B? He had a 2 WAR season last year.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike D

You basically answered your own question. Also, he hits left-handed, and given their lineup, they will proportionally benefit more from adding a righty bat.

Ivdown
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike D

I can’t take anymore of Utley’s offense. After some time in mid may Utley was awful. Anytime he came up it felt like a surprise if he got on base, and a celebration if he got an extra base hit. I’d be interested to see how he hit against non-NL East teams last year, because he clubbed the Mets and I believe the Phillies pretty hard.

TKDCMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Ivdown

He did clobber the Mets, and also the Nats. He was pretty good against the Phillies, but was dominated by the Braves and Marlins.

I’m not sure why any of this matters, but there you go.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

This comment is correct, it does not matter.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago

and if Kenta Maeda — who one friend in the game told me last year had “the worst medicals we’ve ever seen” — doesn’t miss time

While I don’t doubt that Maeda has issues on his medicals that are worthy of concern, a statement like that suggests one of two things:

1. The Dodgers have some magic injury sauce that they used to extract an acceptable starter’s workload from this hopeless medical case or
2. Your friend is way overconfident in his or his team’s ability to assess the meaning of a medical report on a player’s injury risk.

And I’m going hard in on #2 here.

Jonathan
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Eh, or maybe the Dodgers have so far dodged injury with Maeda even in light of the terrible medicals. It’s always just a question of risk for injury. You don’t necessarily need “magic sauce” to get lucky and get (let’s say) the 20% chance of avoiding injury.

Maeda having a decent first year with the Dodgers doesn’t mean the friend and/or his team’s assessment of injury is incorrect then or now.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I would have more sympathy for that position if the friend–assuming an exactish quote–had not been so superlative.

“Worst medicals we’ve ever seen”

I just kind of scoff at that.

Dave TMember since 2025
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Granted there has to be some hyperbole in that statement, as presumably every team has at some point seen medicals of an injured pitcher who is so badly hurt that he won’t ever pitch again. And those medicals would have to be “worse” than Maeda’s.

But the contract that Maeda signed sure suggests that teams as a whole were highly negative on his health. Eight year contract but with limited guarantees ($25 million total, plus the $20 million posting fee) and most of the potential contract value in incentives of up to about $10 million per year.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Yeah the contract is so weird it is hard for me to really interpret it. One major unknown for me is whether he got many more traditional offers, with a shorter term or lower total value than the maximum value of the contract he eventually signed. For one, I doubt most teams would want to deal with the cost uncertainty of his Dodgers deal, and two, I doubt most teams wanted to commit to 8 years of it. Converting his deal to an equivalent traditional contract is not easy. What if he was offered like 5/70 and felt like betting on himself and taking the higher maximum?

Dave TMember since 2025
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

I would be shocked if Maeda turned down a traditional contract of anything like 5 / $70 million. Over the next 5 years, his Dodgers contract offers Maeda only downside to a contract like that.

Here’s an old analysis of the Maeda contract when it was signed, for example – http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2016/1/5/10709882/kenta-maeda-dodgers-contract-mlb-trade-rumors-free-agents-masahiro-tanaka-clayton-kershaw

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago

But I don’t know that Friedman would stick his old friends in Tampa Bay with something he thinks is likely to break

Lol I think he totally would and I think they expect that he would. I feel like this is similar to saying that a player wouldn’t play too hard against his buddies on his former team.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

Basically, as long as he’s not pulling a Preller and hiding information that is supposed to be public, then calculating injury risk is part of the deal. A team trading for a player knows they have to take the risk that the former teams has a better assessment of that player than they do. They should be suspicious by the very fact that another team is willing to give up a guy who appears to be more valuable than what they are getting back. This applies to all trades, really.

Max Power
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

The Dodgers have also put more resources into research of injury prevention than most likely the rest of the NL combined.

LieutKaffeeMember since 2016
9 years ago

If Forsythe puts up 5 WAR for $14.75M, then his surplus value is around $30M. Dave does a great job running through the pros and cons of JDL, but when you add it all together, it’s certainly not clear he’s a $30M caliber prospect.

Dave, IIRC based on some of the studies you’ve cited in the past, only the top 10-20 prospects are worth that. Perhaps I have my numbers wrong.

So yeah, “De Leon could become a star and burn them” remains as true as it would be when any prospect is traded, but given the whole range of JDL’s outcomes, I haven’t seen a convincing case the Dodgers clearly “lost” on 1 for 1 value.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  LieutKaffee

I think you may be thinking of the 10-20 *draft picks.* JDL needs to be worth about 4 wins over his first 3 seasons to cash in that $30 million right away, and even then he would have what are basically three or four below-market team options after that. I think it is safe to say his expect surplus value should significantly exceed $30 million, as would most prosects in the 10-20 overall range.

bawfuls
9 years ago
Reply to  LieutKaffee

Here’s a relatively recent piece on estimating prospect values based on rankings: http://www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/mlb-prospect-surplus-values-2016-updated-edition/

JDL was the #7 pitching prospect on Baseball America’s mid-season top-100 list last year. According to this method, that puts his surplus value in the $40-70M range. If you want to knock him down a bit to the next tier due to his poor showing at the major league level this past year, he’s still in the $30-40M range.

madmanx
9 years ago
Reply to  bawfuls

You’re reading the study wrong.

johansantana17Member since 2026
9 years ago

“The Dodgers acquired “basically Brian Dozier” in the same way that Jose De Leon is basically Stephen Strasburg.”

This is stupid, Dave. Dozier and Forsythe both have at least had success in the MLB. Strasburg has had success in the MLB and De Leon has not.

A more intellectually honest comparison would be Forsythe is to Dozier as Marcus Stroman (or another similarly good but not great MLB SP) is to Stephen Strasburg.

middmariner
9 years ago
Reply to  johansantana17

I share your reaction in part, but the point is in the link Dave shares in the same sentence — De Leon’s projected WAR is *higher* than Stroman via Steamer. The point is about future projections underplaying historical track records.

Baltar
9 years ago

This is a great deal for the Rays. They can now move Miller back to 2B where he belongs and hand 1B over to their tribe of OF-1B-DH types, and they still have two good IF backups in Beckham and Franklin.
They can also trade one or more of their tribe of SP’s for an improvement elsewhere or, better yet, convert some of them to relievers.

forum199Member since 2025
9 years ago

These recent trades have demonstrated the notion of maximizing value in a given window. While rational, analytical thinking has allowed for proper understanding of the value of prospects and future value, it is also demonstrating that there are certain, brief periods of opportunity for a team to cross the finish line before everyone else, in which it should probably overvalue any type of improvement/production.

The Dodgers have Kershaw, Hill, and Turner for 2 years, before they are either FA or likely declining in production. Seager, Pederson, Urias and others are making the minimum, meaning the Dodgers can max out their payroll to supplement them with talent.

Accordingly, to have a subpar 2B and glaring weakness against lefties with their payroll, talent, and resources would be a big missed opportunity. They had to eventually pay up for either Dozier, Kinsler, or Forsythe. It’s debatable whether they should have upgraded even further to Dozier and paid the price for it, but Forsythe’s ability to play 3B and SS is extremely useful to LA.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  forum199

The one thing to consider is that this team is operating with the full expectation of having a pertpetual window. That 2-year cutoff you mention is definitely something the FO has to consider, but there is a difference between going for it this year and believing in a finite window. If the team saw 2019 as an approaching cliff, then they definitely should have gone for Dozier. However, I am virtually certain that they think they can win in 2019. That means reaching a compromise point between a willingness to overpay for present value, and a concern for future surplus value. It seems De Leon for Forsythe is under that point, and De Leon + ? for Dozier was over it.

forum199Member since 2025
9 years ago
Reply to  Bip

I agree about striving for the balance you mention, but we don’t know exactly what that ‘plus’ was, as I mentioned elsewhere. Any of the top 10 from FG’s Top Dodgers list would be a significant piece to give up along with JDL.

It seems safe to say, however, that the Dodgers felt JDL’s stock was at its peak. They could have constructed many other offers with their depth, but that was the guy mentioned in every deal.

In reality, JDL would have a short 4 month window to perform before the trade deadline. Any type of slippage or struggle from him would cause his stock to tumble and force the Dodgers to dip elsewhere from their more coveted stable of young players.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  forum199

I also think they didn’t want to go those 4 months without a 2B they were comfortable with. They will have some needs at the deadline, and it’s probably better to have to only address the unanticipated needs, rather than also having to plug a hole they knew they had prior to the season. Also, if they wait, they risk that the Rays or Twins have an unexpectedly good start and are no longer willing to trade away their starting 2B.

LHPSU
9 years ago

Everything that applies to Logan Forsythe basically applies to Justin Turner.

_David_Member since 2026
9 years ago

If the point was to win a 7 game series, isn’t De Leon as a good reliever the best choice?

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago

I think we need to make some kind of inflation adjustment for future wins.if we go by surplus value almost all the trades look bad from the buyers perspective. You never get 10 projected wins of an established player for 10 Katoh wins of prospects.

Also I think concentrated wins are worth a little more because the win to dollar relationship is pretty linear but you can always get those 1 win players on a minimum salary. So 6 war over 2 is not the same as 6 wins in 6 years although you get the same value. Maybe we should invent value above quad A player:), I’m not sure how to value those just above replacement wins.

I’m not saying we should throw away the concept of surplus value but we might need to get away to compare straight overall dollar value and control years.

I hate to give a benefit of doubt and a bias based on authority but if guys like epstein (10 plus future torres wins for 1.5 Chapman wins) and friedman do trades like this they must have models to justify that. The win curve might explain part of it (window of success is limited and a win there is worth a lot more than a win rebuilding) but they probably have models beyond that.

I’m not smart enough to judge this but it would be interesting to compare win projections vs prospect win projections in recent prospect for players trades. We might see a tendency on how present wins are valued higher than future ones and what kind of inflation is realistic.

BipMember since 2016
9 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

You never get 10 projected wins of an established player for 10 Katoh wins of prospects.

I think that is what low-payroll teams like the Rays are counting on, and that’s how they stay competitive. It’s not that future wins are worth inherently less, it’s that wins are worth more to teams on certain places on the win curve, and teams make decisions knowing where they project to be on the win curve.

but you can always get those 1 win players on a minimum salary.

If this were true, then 1 WAR would have to adjusted to be 0 WAR, by the definition of WAR.

(10 plus future torres wins for 1.5 Chapman wins)

I’m sure that is not the math they used. They must have used something closer to the “championship win probability added” model. At that point, they knew they were winning the division, and just needed the player that best helped them win a playoff series. Most teams cannot trade from that position in the offseason.

victorvran
9 years ago

“And because the Cubs are so good, your options are to either build a behemoth or to hope you get lucky.

I think Friedman is trying to do the latter.”

Is this a typo or are you saying that you think this acquisition is the dodgers just hoping to get lucky?

tdouglas
9 years ago

John Mozeliak has said similar things about being “rational” about acquiring a player. After finishing in second place on Price, Heyward, and to a lesser extent, Jung Ho Kang, he said that the Cardinals will have to alter their currently strict approach to upgrading their roster. It’s just an unavoidable cost of upgrading a team with outside help.

Paul22
9 years ago

Dodgers should have signed Drew for 2B. He has a wRC+ of 109 since June 1 of 2015 and plays league average defense at 2B. Could have had him for peanuts and kept their prospect

ChinaConor
9 years ago

Didn’t the Cubs make a similar trade at the deadline dealing Torres for Chapman? Sometimes you have to go for it even if the prices are very high.

johndw28
9 years ago

Hey Dave,

When you buy a stock at $30 and hold it all the way down to $5 do you tell the market its wrong? Just curious.

Johnston
9 years ago

The Dodgers had a hole at 2B with no one available to fill it worth more than one WAR. It was the only weak spot in their lineup. Now they have a 2 to 3 WAR 2B in place. This seems quite smart to me.

Dozier is better than Forsythe by a small margin, so they tried to get him first. The Twins wanted too much for him, so the Dodgers went to Plan B and got Forsythe.

It all makes perfect sense to me. They are now the favorites to win their division and to meet the Cubs for the NL championship.

I don’t see a problem here.

kevinthecomic
9 years ago

Earlier in my career when I was a commodities trader, we had the saying “shut your eyes and buy”. Basically, when all of your statistical, technical and fundamental analysis screamed SELL but the market kept going up and up and up, if you wanted to make any money, you had to just “shut your eyes and buy”. There is some truth to the notion of not being rational about every decision if you want to win.

Johnston
9 years ago
Reply to  kevinthecomic

They needed a second baseman. They got the second best one available, and one who everyone who has played with him says brings a lot of intangibles with him. Why close your eyes? I think this was a necessary move. Maybe De Leon becomes the next Pedro Martinez. Maybe he becomes the next flop. Who knows? TINSTAAPP. But Forsythe is a known quantity, and I can’t see this as other than a necessary trade that was done as well as it could possibly be done.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago

Btw i do think that Jeffs article should have considered durability more. Health is also a little bit luck but there is certainly a correlation of past and future injury record.

Forsythe might not be that much worse if you look at per 600 stats but realistically I think forsythe does project to have about 100 to 150 PAs less. He could of course stay healthy (and dozier could also get hurt) but the chance that dozier stays healthy is much better.

Im pretty sure the dodgers know that dozier is superior and that they went for forsythe probably means that the twins asked for a really significant second piece.

Forsythe is not a great solution but the market for 2b is currently not good and the dodgers system is weak on middle infield prospects (especially if you dont consider Calhoun a 2b),so the dodgers had to do something if they did not want to play a 1 win player in a league were everyone has a good 2b.

Forsythe at least projects to be league average at a reasonable cost for those two years.of course that means that Forsythe is only a two win upgrade over cheap internal options over two years (one win per year), but as a top contender you probably do not want to run out a bad player at a premium position.

I do agree that de leon was not a spare piece and the dodgers pitching depth is a little deceiving as the rotation is very injury prone and there is a real chance de leon would have been helpful (even just at a trade chip) but there weren’t many 2b options out there and the dodgers needed an upgrade.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
9 years ago

Btw I just read on a twins board that the dodgers did offer de leon, alvarez and a garbage prospect but the twins asked for a third top prospect. Other reports said the dodgers turned down stewart as a second piece.

So it would be really interesting what the “plus” would have been. I’m pretty sure the dodgers eventually did add additional pieces, but not sure how good they were.

gyaris
9 years ago

everything you said is true, but … you have to remember the black hole which was the LAD’s second base situation, and how bad the LAD’s were against lefties last year. That has to factor into getting a right handed second baseman.

Mark Davidson
9 years ago

Man, Dave, this is one of my favorite pieces of yours. Awesome work.