The Hall Calls: Two for 2020, Derek Jeter and Larry Walker

It’s back to business as usual for the BBWAA’s Hall of Fame voting, the results of which were announced on Tuesday evening. The messy and occasionally exasperating tradition of non-unanimity, which took an unprecedented one-year vacation when Mariano Rivera was elected with 100% of the vote last year, has returned. While Derek Jeter appeared on track to join Rivera in that exclusive club, one as-yet-unidentified voter from among the 397 ballots cast in this year’s election chose to throw a wrench in the works. No matter. Ol’ No. 2 will have to settle for the second-highest vote share in Hall history (99.75%) as well as the requisite bronze plaque in Cooperstown. He’ll have some company in the Class of 2020, as the writers also elected Larry Walker with 76.6% of the vote. Walker, the first Canadian-born position player ever elected, follows Tim Raines (2017) and Edgar Martinez (2019) as the third candidate in the last four election cycles to be chosen in his 10th and final year of eligibility.

With “only” two honorees this year, the writers’ unprecedented streak of electing at least three candidates annually has ended at three years; the last time they elected two was in 2016, when Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Piazza were chosen. Even so, this is the seventh consecutive election in which the BBWAA has tabbed multiple candidates; that breaks a tie with the 1951-56 span, which was bracketed by back-to-back shutouts on either side. The 22 candidates elected over the past seven cycles is a record, far outdoing the 16 from the 1950-56 or 1951-57 stretches.

What follows here is my big-picture look at this year’s results; I’ll be back with my candidate-by-candidate breakdown on Wednesday.

Not Everybody Has to Agree

It was one of the dumbest traditions in all of sports, but for 82 years, from the first Hall of Fame election in 1936 through 2019, it was practically the law of the land: no candidate could receive 100% of the vote. Because the grizzled scribes who voted in the inaugural election could not unite to agree on Ty Cobb (98.2%) or Babe Ruth (95.1%), inevitably some self-appointed guardians of the gate would dissent in the name of tradition. Ted Williams and his 19 All-Star appearances, six batting titles, and combat heroics? Pfft, 93.4% in 1966. Stan Musial and those 3,630 hits, seven batting titles, and three MVP awards? Harumph, 93.2% for him in 1969. Willie Mays, with his spectacular power/speed/defense combination? Meh, 94.7% in 1979. Hank Aaron and his home run record, not to mention 3,771 hits and the RBI record too? Feh, 97.8% in 1982, though to be fair, that mark was still the highest since Cobb.

In 2016, Griffey came tantalizingly close to running the table, receiving unanimous support on all of 211 ballots published prior to the announcement of the election results but being snubbed by three unidentified voters. Even so, he set a new record at 99.3%, surpassing the 98.84% Tom Seaver received in 1992. Griffey’s high score took place in an age of increased voter transparency, and while the BBWAA’s desire for complete transparency was thwarted by the Hall of Fame a couple years later, the stage was set for Rivera when he reached the ballot last year. The all-time leader in saves, and arguably the best postseason player of his generation, Rivera benefited from a perfect storm of voter accountability, transparency, inarguable excellence at his specialty, and universal respect throughout the industry.

Jeter did not have all of those conditions working for him to the same degree. He’s not the best shortstop ever, just 12th in JAWS at the position due to lousy defensive metrics, and he merely replicated his outstanding regular season showing in the postseason instead of becoming even more dominant. Yet he’s a 14-time All-Star who ranks sixth all-time in hits, he was a key part of five championship teams, and he spent two decades as an outstanding ambassador for the sport. Other than first-time voter Sean Forman (of Baseball-Reference fame) publicly musing about the potential to exclude him for strategic reasons — to support a candidate who would otherwise have been number 11 on a 10-slot ballot — no voter seemed to waver on it. Yet one was apparently lurking in the weeds, and whether that voter cast their ballot with sabotage or strategy in mind is immaterial. It’s a done deal.

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And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter. Jeter’s eminently worthy of his spot in the Hall of Fame, and his celebration in Cooperstown on July 26 will be no less jubilant. Here he is on the all-time voting share leaderboard:

Highest BBWAA Voting Percentages
Rk Name Year Votes % of Ballots
1 Mariano Rivera 2019 425 100.0%
2 Derek Jeter 2020 396 99.7%
3 Ken Griffey Jr. 2016 437 99.3%
4 Tom Seaver 1992 425 98.8%
5 Nolan Ryan 1999 491 98.8%
6 Cal Ripken Jr. 2007 537 98.5%
7 Ty Cobb 1936 222 98.2%
8 George Brett 1999 488 98.2%
9 Hank Aaron 1982 406 97.8%
10 Tony Gwynn 2007 532 97.6%
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference

A True Cliffhanger

The suspense over whether Walker, a true five-tool star and a personal favorite, would make it in his final year on the ballot was nearly unbearable. While he received 83.5% support on the ballots published in Ryan Thibodaux’s Hall of Fame Ballot Tracker prior to the announcement, the election’s various forecasters were split down the middle. Myself, I clung to the frequent updates of Jason Sardell (@sarsdell), who uses a probabilistic model that at last call gave Walker an 81% chance of election. That was apparently far ahead of the great right fielder’s own thinking, according to a tweet he sent on Tuesday afternoon:

As voters revealed their ballots in recent days, every omission took on an outsized importance, particularly as arguments over how much time he missed due to injuries, how often he faced Randy Johnson, and how much Coors Field pumped up his numbers were rehashed again and again. It seemed possible that a couple of votes either way could make all the difference between making it now and having to wait until at least the 2022 Today’s Game ballot. The examples of Nellie Fox and Ralph Kiner loomed large. Fox missed by just two votes in 1985, his final year on the writers’ ballot, and then wasn’t elected until 1997 by the Veterans Committee. Kiner cleared the bar by just one vote in 1975, his final year on the ballot.

As it was, Walker made it with six votes to spare, which is merely tied for the 10th-smallest margin among those elected:

Scraping the 75% Bar
Player Year Votes Total Pct Margin
Al Simmons 1953 199 264 75.4% 1
Willie Keeler 1939 207 274 75.5% 1
Ralph Kiner 1975 273 362 75.4% 1
Fergie Jenkins 1991 334 443 75.4% 1
Pie Traynor 1948 93 121 76.9% 2
Lefty Grove 1947 123 161 76.4% 2
Cy Young 1937 153 201 76.1% 2
Herb Pennock 1948 94 121 77.7% 3
Jackie Robinson 1962 124 160 77.5% 4
Early Wynn 1972 301 396 76.0% 4
Ivan Rodriguez 2017 336 442 76.0% 4
Bill Terry 1954 195 252 77.4% 6
Larry Walker 2020 304 397 76.6% 6
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference

It’s a happy coincidence to find Jenkins, the first Canadian-born player in the Hall, on that list. Walker is the seventh candidate in modern electoral history (since 1966, when the writers returned to annual voting) to be elected in his final year of eligibility, after Red Ruffing (1967), Joe Medwick (’68), Kiner (’75), Jim Rice (2009), Raines, and Martinez. The three elected in the past four years had to overcome the loss of five years of eligibility after the Hall’s unilateral rule change in 2014.

Walker’s comeback is even more remarkable than his immediate predecessors’. He debuted at 20.3% in 2011 and polled as low as 10.2% in 2014; by comparison, Raines never fell below 22.6%, and Martinez never slipped below 25.2%. In fact, that 10.2% is the second-lowest share ever received by a modern candidate who was eventually elected by the writers, ahead of only Bob Lemon’s 7.0% from 1966 as the lowest. Among modern candidates, Walker’s 42.5% gained over the past two cycles is second only to Aparicio’s 42.7% (from 41.9% in 1982 to 84.6% in ’84), and his 54.7% gain over three years is tops:

Largest 3-Year Gains on BBWAA Ballot Since 1969
RK Player Yr0 Pct0 Yr3 Pct3 Gain
1 Larry Walker 2017 21.9% 2020 76.6% 54.7%
2 Early Wynn 1969 27.9% 1972 76.0% 48.1%
3 Luis Aparicio 1981 36.9% 1984 84.6% 47.7%
4 Nellie Fox 1982 30.6% 1985 74.7% 44.1%
5 Billy Williams 1982 23.4% 1985 63.8% 40.4%
6 Gary Carter 1999 33.8% 2002 72.7% 38.9%
7 Eddie Mathews 1975 40.9% 1978 79.4% 38.5%
8 Don Drysdale 1975 21.0% 1978 57.8% 36.8%
9 Billy Williams 1984 50.1% 1987 85.7% 35.6%
10 Luis Aparicio 1980 32.2% 1983 67.4% 35.2%

Walker’s 22-point jump from last year’s 54.6% is the second-largest of any post-1966 candidate who cleared the 75% bar, nestled between two other relatively recent examples:

Largest One-Year Gains Resulting in Election
RK Player Yr0 Pct0 Yr1 Pct1 Gain
1 Barry Larkin 2011 62.1% 2012 86.4% 24.3%
2 Larry Walker* 2019 54.6% 2020 76.6% 22.0%
3 Vladimir Guerrero 2017 71.7% 2018 92.9% 21.2%
4 Yogi Berra 1971 67.2% 1972 85.6% 18.4%
5 Luis Aparicio 1983 67.4% 1984 84.6% 17.2%
6 Eddie Mathews 1977 62.4% 1978 79.4% 17.0%
7 Ralph Kiner* 1974 58.9% 1975 75.4% 16.5%
8 Tony Perez 1999 60.8% 2000 77.2% 16.4%
9 Roberto Alomar 2010 73.7% 2011 90.0% 16.3%
10 Tim Raines* 2016 69.8% 2017 86.0% 16.2%
Since 1967. * = elected in final year of eligibility.

For more on big jumps, see this from last year.

Big Schill and the Gruesome Twosome

As anticipated, this was not the year for the ballot’s three most polarizing players, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Curt Schilling, all of whom made some progress towards 75% but just as significantly burned through another year of eligibility, their eighth on the ballot. Bonds and Clemens, whose statistical cases are overwhelming, have been held back primarily by their connections to performance-enhancing drugs, while Schilling has been held back by his corrosive public persona. We’ll skip rehashing the details here.

Schilling, who received 60.9% of the vote in 2019, gained 9.1% to get to an even 70.0%, which puts him clearly within striking distance next year. Since 1966, 24 candidates have received at least 70% but fallen short of 75%. Three (Fox, Orlando Cepeda, and Red Ruffing) were in their final year of eligibility on the writers’ ballot; of the other 21, only Jim Bunning (74.2% in 1988) failed to clear 75% the following year. Bunning tumbled backwards by more than 10 points in 1989, couldn’t make up the ground in his remaining two years on the ballot, and was eventually elected by the Veterans Committee, as were Fox and Cepeda; Ruffing was elected in a since-abandoned run-off process.

As for Bonds, he gained 1.6% from last year’s 59.1%, with Clemens adding just 1.5% from last year’s 59.5% — about half of what they gained from 2018-19. It’s fair to say that the two candidates’ momentum has completely dissipated, and it will take a radical reconsideration from the holdouts for them to get to 75% before their time in front of the writers is done. Right now, that’s just not happening. Per the Tracker, while Bonds and Clemens each received votes from eight out nine newcomers who published their ballots prior to the election, they changed very few minds, with the former netting just two votes from returning voters, and the latter just one. Schilling, who got votes from seven out of nine newcomers, did net 13 votes from returning voters, some of whom may have selected him in the past but did not do so in 2019.

Significant Gains

With the recent flood of elected candidates and Jeter the only must-vote newcomer, voters had plenty of room to throw their support behind holdover candidates, and some made very impressive gains. Scott Rolen and Gary Sheffield more than doubled their support from last year, with the former vaulting from 17.2% to 35.3% and the latter from 13.6% to 30.5%. Billy Wagner nearly joined them, climbing from 16.7% to 31.7%. Todd Helton (up 12.7% to 29.2%) and Andruw Jones (up 11.9% to 19.4%) both posted double-digit gains. Omar Vizquel (up 9.8% to 52.5%) just missed out on that distinction, but more importantly, he crossed the 50% rubicon. Aside from current candidates, only Gil Hodges has received at least 50% and not gained eventual entry from either the writers or a small committee.

The Incredible Shrinking Ballot — and Electorate

Going into this election, it seemed likely that the recent parade of large classes would end. Not only was Jeter the only clear first-ballot honoree on this year’s slate, but the only additional suspense concerning first-year candidates was whether Bobby Abreu would even make it to a second election; he did, scraping by with 5.5% — 22 votes, two more than his candidacy needed to survive. The other 16 first-year candidates received 10 or fewer votes (2.5% or less), with seven of them shut out completely.

With that shortage of strong first-year candidates, as well as the clearance of so many holdovers in recent years, voters used an average of 6.61 slots per ballot, the lowest since 2013; they’ve averaged 7.95 or more every year since, breaking modern records three times. Likewise, just 21% of this year’s voters used all 10 slots, less than half the rate of last year. Here’s a look at recent history:

Recent BBWAA Ballot Trends
Year Votes Per Ballot All 10 Elected
2013 6.60 22% 0
2014 8.39 50% 3
2015 8.42 51% 4
2016 7.95 42% 2
2017 8.17 45% 3
2018 8.46 50% 4
2019 8.01 43% 4
2020 6.61 21% 2
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference
“All 10” figures via BBWAA. Yellow shading = modern record (since 1966).

Meanwhile, the 397 ballots cast was the fewest cast in any BBWAA election since 1985. The total represented a drop of 6.6% from last year’s 425, and a more jarring 31.7% drop from the high-water mark of 581, set in 2011. The shrinking electorate owes not only to the ongoing contraction of the media industry but the ramifications of a 2016 rule change that took ballots away from any voters more than 10 years removed from active coverage. Per the Tracker, it’s also worth noting that at least seven participants in last year’s election died in the past year, including the Elias Sports Bureau’s Seymour Siwoff, the owner of BBWAA card no. 1, representing the longest tenure of any writer, and this year’s Spink Award winner, Nick Cafardo. The total has been further diminished by a handful of still-eligible voters who have voluntarily surrendered their ballots in recent years.

Maybe they just had enough of the elections’ highs, lows, and absurdities. Me, I can’t get enough of them. I’ll be back with my full candidate-by-candidate breakdown on Wednesday.

2020 BBWAA Hall of Fame Voting Results
Player Years Votes Pct
Derek Jeter 1 396 99.7%
Larry Walker 10 304 76.6%
Curt Schilling 8 278 70.0%
Roger Clemens 8 242 61.0%
Barry Bonds 8 241 60.7%
Omar Vizquel 3 209 52.6%
Scott Rolen 3 140 35.3%
Billy Wagner 5 126 31.7%
Gary Sheffield 6 121 30.5%
Todd Helton 2 116 29.2%
Manny Ramírez 4 112 28.2%
Jeff Kent 7 109 27.5%
Andruw Jones 3 77 19.4%
Sammy Sosa 8 55 13.9%
Andy Pettitte 2 45 11.3%
Bobby Abreu 1 22 5.5%
Paul Konerko* 1 10 2.5%
Jason Giambi* 1 6 1.5%
Alfonso Soriano* 1 6 1.5%
Eric Chávez* 1 2 0.5%
Cliff Lee* 1 2 0.5%
Adam Dunn* 1 1 0.3%
Brad Penny* 1 1 0.3%
Raul Ibanez* 1 1 0.3%
J.J. Putz* 1 1 0.3%
SOURCE: BBWAA.com
* ineligible for future consideration on BBWAA ballots. Zero votes (and also eliminated): Josh Beckett, Heath Bell, Chone Figgins, Rafael Furcal, Carlos Peña, Brian Roberts, José Valverde.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

204 Comments
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The Duke
6 years ago

Schilling will need two more years. The writers have a large contingent of petty, thin-skinned people. I’m guessing they will make it hard for him to go in next year and possibly the following year. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go to the vets

OddBall Herrera
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

I do agree that there are some sports journalists out there who can’t help taking the chance to pat themselves on the back for getting to be social activists in some small way by lodging a protest vote against Schilling and, by extension, his politics.

But come on, the guy did just hit 70% with two years left. It’s not like he’s been blackballed from consideration. I think it’s absurd that Mussina is in, and we’re now talking Pettite’s merits, and Schilling is still sitting out there, but he looks like he’ll get there and more and more journalists are conceding that the point has been made.

Here’s hoping we get “Heel year” and we get Bonds, Clemens, Arod and Schilling all at once! Get out your thesaurus sports writers, going to need to find some synonyms for ‘outrage’ 🙂

dl80Member since 2020
6 years ago

It’s not his politics that is rubbing them the wrong way. Heck, baseball writers are probably the most conservative of the major sports. What is bothering them is his retweeting of a meme suggesting violent lynchings of the media.

thestatbook
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

Found the Curt Schilling burner account.

lakawak
6 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

Or just someone that knows baseball. You’d have to be an idiot to think he is not a Hall of Famer. Or that the reason he isn’t yet has anything to do with his stats. But sure..embarrass yourself and your family more, statbook.

Lauren WalkerMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

How is his family embarrassed

thejerk
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

Geez, didn’t realize Curt Schilling had TWO accounts on here.

hombremomento
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

I don’t think the word is “thin skinned” if you just disapprove of lynching media workers

FrancoLuvHateMets
6 years ago
Reply to  hombremomento

If he meant it literally, then sure, not voting for a guy trying to start a public murder makes sense. He’s just a dick and that’s why people aren’t voting for him.

hombremomento
6 years ago

If it was entirely based on stats, I’m very sure that Curt would be inducted. And while I agree that it shouldn’t intrude in a HOF case, its not “thin-skinned” to criticize him for it.

manormachine
6 years ago

That’s how gaslighting works. It’s a favorite right wing technique. Keep pushing the envelope with offensive and outrageous speech, then when people are actually offended, walk it back with a “just joking” or “out of context” and accuse the other side of being too sensitive or misunderstanding your intent.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  manormachine

Gaslighting is disputing whether or not he said it- which he did. Saying something like “you’re crazy, he didn’t say that, there’s no way.” What you’re referring to is definitely a thing, I’m just not sure it’s gaslighting. It’s kind of shifting the overton window, except no one in baseball feels like writer murder is a policy that’s actually on the table because schilling said it.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

Journalists face real threats to their physical safety every day, in every country. By citizens and by governments. Were you unaware? These hilarious “jokes” based on rage contribute to real harm vs. real people.

Sarachim
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

It’s gaslighting in that they say something that clearly isn’t a joke, then reply “I was obviously joking” when challenged.

hombremomento
6 years ago
Reply to  manormachine

All sorts of people gaslight. I don’t know if Curt has backtracked before (probably not considering his shirt fiasco).

SirLancelittle
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

I think we are at a point where a bunch of writers know Schilling is a Hall of Famer but don’t want to have to be the one to vote him in. I expect that if he doesn’t make it next year, he will make it easily in his final year. I expect a bunch of voters will feel like they used their protest vote by keeping him out for as long as possible but will feel obligated to vote for him in his last year.

sbf21
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

I guess the average Fangraphs reader has thinner skin than the typical sports writer because Schilling only garnered 67 percent on the crowdsource poll.

Fredchuckdave
6 years ago

Nice amount of support for Paulie; looks like the David Ortiz Vs Bonds and Clemens hilarity is all but guaranteed; congrats to Schilling next year if he can successfully shut up for a while.

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago

My hunch with Jeter not getting 100% was some voter got pissed off at another voter saying they were only voting for Jeter so he wouldn’t have to share the stage with anyone else… Dumb stuff.

thejerk
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Look, Jeter belongs in the Hall of Fame in every way. And this whole “never on the first ballot” or “should be on the first ballot” argument is nonsense.

But I can respect a voter if his or her mindset is: it took objectively better baseball players many years to make the Hall of Fame, thus I won’t vote Derek Jeter year one.

Players should get in because they deserve to be in. This gaming of the ballot is dumb.

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago
Reply to  thejerk

I agree. I think it was dumb whoever snubbed Jeter, but I also think it was equally dumb that there was someone like Anthony Rieber..

Rieber, a sportswriter from New York, wrote an entire article justifying his take. “In another year, with a different composition of the BBWAA ballot, I would not have voted only for Jeter. But this year’s BBWAA ballot made it the only choice for me.”
Apparently the players he regarded as good enough last year—Bonds, Clemens, Pettitte, Ramirez, Schilling and Visquel—aren’t good enough this year.

That’s just a complete and utter joke.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

My personal take on this is this election is the best possible outcome for people, like me, who appreciate Jeter and seriously dislike the attempt by some fans to make him into a saint. Jeter gets elected, but all the people who voted *only* for him get to have him share the stage with Larry Walker, who is really not so different in terms of overall value and pissing off the faithful. It’s a win-win for me.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Reiber’s vote was as ridiculous as has ever been cast. Even much more than the excruciatingly small hall Jeter-only votes. How this guy can keep his vote but Dan LeBatard can’t, is beyond normal human comprehension.

synco
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

He’s just trying to score some cheap points with his home crowd/team.

bglick4
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I don’t know. Mo made sense. He was a generational talent. But, Jeter was only a very good player. Many far better players were not unanimous. The cynic in me’s thinking, “Oh, so only Yankees get to be unanimous? I see how it is.” So, dude should have voted for Jeter. He belongs in the hall, but if I should ever be so fortunate as to run into this voter in a bar, I’m still buying him a beer. His vote was wrong, but Tarasco would have caught that ball and the Yankees do indeed suck.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  bglick4

Will you buy him a beer when Beltre isn’t unanimous, because some NY writer is pissed about Jeter getting snubbed?

lakawak
6 years ago

No one is expecting Beltre to be unanimous. (And it will have nothing to do with Jeter…who didn’t get snubbed, moron.) And his fans won’t be whining like little b*tches when he isn’t.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

Beltre has over 3000 hits, over 450 HRs, and is known as an elite defender both by reputation and advanced metrics.

Beltre’s George Brett with better defense and 150 more homers – regardless of what standard you use to evaluate Hall of Famers, there’s no conceivable reason to vote against him.

PhilMember since 2016
6 years ago

Maybe someone really like rubbing people’s heads. And Beltre got annoyed when they tried to rub his, so that’s why that person won’t vote for Beltre?

Other than that, who doesn’t think Beltre is a Hall of Famer?

Luy
6 years ago

Who are you arguing with, Lester?
No one hear said Beltre doesn’t deserve the HoF. But especially in light of Jeter not being elected unanimously… do you really expect Beltre to be expected unanimously?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

I’m responding to the kid having a meltdown all over this thread.

And my entire point was that Jeter’s unanimous election would have paved the way for Beltre and Ichiro to receive the same honor.

Now, I can guarantee that some prick Yankees beat writer won’t tick the box, on the basis that “Jeter wasn’t unanimous.”

Hell, I could see someone doing it to Trout in 15-20 years, just to be petty.

olethrosMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

By the time Beltre hits the ballot the backlog will be completely gone, there won’t be 10+ worthy players on the ballot, and there won’t be any reason to withhold a vote for Beltre other than petty dipshittery. They haven’t fessed up yet, but I’m 99% certain that whoever didn’t vote for him voted for 10 other guys instead, on the basis that Jeter was getting in regardless and those guys needed the support more.

As he always is, both here and in Bodymore, Muddaland, Cool Lester Smooth is right.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  olethros

not to be too cynical but these are sportswriters, petty dipshittery is what keeps a lot of them going. Unrelated, does Dan Shaughnessy have a vote?
Beltre will be in, he’s probably an inner circle guy top 25 player ever.

bglick4
6 years ago

Yes. And in all seriousness, if Jeter was in year ten and this guy was the deciding vote, I’d be upset. Jeter belongs in the hall. But, as it is, Jeter is in , and faux fan hate because of events that happened 20 years ago guys in a game where grown men run around in their pajamas is part of what makes baseball great. Oh, and Giambi was safe.

sbf21
6 years ago
Reply to  bglick4

Ahhh, jealousy. Yankee fans love to see that green complexion on the fans of lesser teams.

lakawak
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Or, the fact that if he was not on a team with a payroll almost 50% higher than the NEXT highest team, and therefore didn’t win all the World Series, he wouldn’t even be a first ballot Hall of Famer at all. There are DOZENS of Hall of Famers MUCH better than Jeter. And only one was unanimous. Why weren’t you whining like a little b*tch about them?

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

lol.

Someone’s projecting.

gettwobrute79Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

My guess was it was someone who didn’t get a gift basket.

BKJ
6 years ago

The man Cy Young himself only made it by two votes, huh? Kind of makes you wonder about the value of the percentages, much less the whole unanimity thing. Guess he does have the all-time losses record to answer for. . .

BenZobrist4MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  BKJ

Amazingly, that wasn’t even until Cy Young’s 2nd ballot that he snuck in.

Doug LampertMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  BenZobrist4MVP

And of course he also holds the records for most earned runs given up and most hits against.

mgwalker
6 years ago
Reply to  BKJ

And he never won a cy young award.

hombremomento
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

Ok this made me giggle a bit

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  BKJ

That caught my eye too. I think there’s a whole post worth of story (maybe more) that I’d be interested in reading…

synco
6 years ago
Reply to  BKJ

There are some crazy names on that list. Cy Young barely scraped over? Lefty Grove barely scraped over? JACKIE ROBINSON barely scraped over?

rosen380
6 years ago
Reply to  synco

It has more to do with it being the first years of the Hall of Fame so there was a large backlog to clear. There were 35 players who got at least one vote on the 1936 Hall of Fame ballot and didn’t get in that year, but were elected at some point in the future.

On this year’s ballot there were only 23 players who got a vote and didn’t get elected and seven more who were eligible but didn’t get any votes. That last guy on the 1936 ballot is like 5 guys after Heath Bell or Chone Figgins…

Gus
6 years ago

It’s shameful that it took 10 years for Larry Walker to be elected. He could do it all. The excuse that he in unworthy of induction because he played so many games at Coors Field doesn’t hold water. Why is it so difficult for electors to understand park-adjusted stats? Also, if Walker wore a Yankees uniform for most of his career then he would have been elected years ago.

thejerk
6 years ago
Reply to  Gus

Weren’t many of these guys were the same folks who gave Jeter 5 Gold Gloves?

Luy
6 years ago
Reply to  thejerk

You’ve got to remember… Jeter caught that ball in fair territory that one time and then ran a few steps and then dove into the stands. He was a great defender. /eyeroll

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

…have you never seen the play?

“Past a diving Jeter” jokes are merited, and always funny, but anyone trying to knock that play sounds like a 12 year old whose only knowledge of it comes from their Sox fan older brother.

Luy
6 years ago

You’re as good at humor as Jeter was at going to his left.

docgooden85Member since 2018
6 years ago

“Jeter caught that ball in fair territory that one time and then ran a few steps and then dove into the stands.”

That is an accurate description of the catch in question.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  docgooden85

As long as you’ve never run at full speed before in your life, I suppose.

London Yank
6 years ago
Reply to  thejerk

Managers and coaches vote for the Gold Glove, so, no.

SnowLeopard
6 years ago
Reply to  Gus

“Also, if Walker wore a Yankees uniform for most of his career then he would have been elected years ago.”

I’ve long heard talk about a “Yankees bias” to the HoF. Like many non-fans, I have an instinctive negative reaction to anything having to do with the Yankees, and basically consider them an Evil Empire. And yeah Phil Rizzuto has one of the weaker resumes in the HoF. But honestly if anything I wonder if voters may be overadjusting against Yankee bias more than indulging it.

Clemens and Lou Pinella should have been in the HoF years ago. If there were a strong Yankee bias, some of Kevin Brown, Pettitte, Tommy John, Scheff, Mattingly, Posada, Billy Martin, Ralph Houk, and Thurmon Munson would be in by now (and honestly I wouldn’t have a Baines-sized problem with any of them getting in). Craig Nettles, Willie Randolph, and David Cone are deserving or close to it, and they all got nuked on their first ballot. Johnny Damon, Bernie Williams, and Ron Guidry aren’t HoFers, but they all deserved more votes than they got. And I predict that ARod and CC Sabathia are going to have a hard time getting elected. Again – not seeing a huge bias here.

London Yank
6 years ago
Reply to  SnowLeopard

This is correct. There is a Yankees bias in HOF voting and in the voting for the other awards, but the bias is clearly against players associated with the Yankees. To win awards as a Yankee you have to be either inner circle (Mo and Jeter HOF) or much better than the rest of the field (ARod MVP in 2007).

Of corse the bias is against the Yankees. The Yankees are historically the most polarising team in baseball. You are either a Yankees fan or a Yankees hater, and the vast majority of sportswriters are Yankees haters.

The clue should be in the people spinning the narrative. It is the sportswriters themselves who all tell us there is a bias in favour of the Yankees. …this is a bit like the most mainstream news channel (Fox News) perpetually complaining about bias in the mainstream news.

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago

are we expecting this trend of fewer voters to continue?

thejerk
6 years ago

Derek Jeter- 20 seasons, 73.0 WAR (3.7 per season)
Scott Rolen- 17 seasons, 69.9 WAR (4.1)

Rolen is on his third ballot and got 35% of the vote. But Yankee fans are crying because their overrated biracial angel didn’t get in unanimously on year one.

Yankee fans are the absolute worst. There, I said it.

thestatbook
6 years ago
Reply to  thejerk

“You shot Derek Jeter. He’s a biracial angel! You should have shot A-Rod!”

Great reference.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

That movie was one of the most pleasant surprises. I thought I was going to hate it, but it was great.

Tanned Tom
6 years ago
Reply to  thejerk

You managed to combine mindless Yankee hating, not too covert racism, and general ass-holiness all into one comment. Good job. Your screen name describes you perfectly.

hombremomento
6 years ago
Reply to  Tanned Tom

What

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Tanned Tom

Woosh.

esotericcd
6 years ago
Reply to  Tanned Tom

Congratulations on completely missing the reference.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  thejerk

I mean, it’s deeply asinine that Rolen isn’t in yet…but whoever didn’t vote for Jeter is a jackass who just cost Ichiro and Beltre unanimous induction down the line.

lakawak
6 years ago

Lester…again…why are you whining like a bitch about this when there are DOZENS of players who have far far far far far far better careers than Jeter and only one was unanimous?

Take away the 250 million payroll surrounding him, and therefore the World Series, and Jeter isn’t even a first ballot electee, let alone a unanimous one. By some of the (mostly useless) Hall of Fame criteria stats, he isn’t even a HAll of Famer at all!

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

Gotta say, hon…you’re doing a lot of shouting and crying, all over this comment section.

What you’re *not* doing, however, is refuting (or even addressing) the fact that refusing to vote for an obvious Hall of Famer because “Player X was better, and he wasn’t unanimous!!!!” is fucking dumb.

Luy
6 years ago

Is the whole “don’t vote someone in unanimously” thing dumb as hell? Yes.

Is it also dumb that Derek Jeter is the player that has brought this to the public’s attention, and not say… even recently Pedro, Maddux, Bagwell, Rickey, Ripken? Also, yes.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

lol.

Someone doesn’t remember the quest to find out who voted against Junior.

Luy
6 years ago

The quest?
lol, indeed.

Denying unanimity is dumb.
Expecting unanimity is also dumb, ESPECIALLY given the history and people’s dumbness.
Why is it so hard to process both these thoughts?

Further the point many are making – which you deliberately miss again and again – is that, no, this is not especially unfair to Jeter, while still being a bit unfair.

Again, denying unanimity is dumb. But Jeter is not a special victim of this dumb choice.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

Jeter, like Griffey, was a great chance to overcome the dumb “No Unanimous” trend, because he’s both not an “Inner Circle” guy, AND someone whom every reasonable voter, regardless of their criteria, can agree was a Hall of Famer.

3,465 hits, over 70 in both forms of WAR, 5 WS rings, squeaky clean image on and off the field…dude was tailor made to break the idiotic cycle.

Bagwell had steroid suspicions (he’s one of the guys who openly used Andro), so he didn’t get in until Selig was elected.

Pedro only had 219 Winzzz.

Chipper had under 3000 hits and 500 HRs (along with possibly being the most anonymous great player in history).

The voting for Maddux, Ripken, and Rickey occurred before writers posting their ballots was de rigeur…but Ken Gurnick was roundly shamed for only voting for Jack Morris, the year Maddux was on the ballot.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago

Jaysus.

Does lakawak have burners, or do people *not* think that it’s fucking dumb to say “Player A wasn’t unanimous, so I won’t vote for Player B, despite his being clearly deserving”?

Michael Rosenberg
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

I’m sure if there was a player with 3,465 hits in Arizona he wouldn’t get elected first ballot, you racist dumbass. He’s only in because of all those overrated Yankee scrubs like *checks notes* Earle Combs and Tony Lazzeri!

But sure, let’s just pretend that those playoff games did not happen. Let’s pretend that the Yankees payroll wasn’t sub-100 millon from 1996-1999.

I’m sorry that the ESPN comment section shut down, but there’s always YouTube.

Luy
6 years ago

You know Poe’s Law and Godwin’s Law… Is there a fangraphs “law” that says the person whining the most about “espn comments” is most likely to create an “espn comment” themselves?

Michael Rosenberg
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

“Lester…again…why are you whining like a bitch about this when there are DOZENS of players who have far far far far far far better careers than Jeter and only one was unanimous?

Take away the 250 million payroll surrounding him, and therefore the World Series, and Jeter isn’t even a first ballot electee, let alone a unanimous one. By some of the (mostly useless) Hall of Fame criteria stats, he isn’t even a HAll of Famer at all!”

Why yes, those who call out the emotionally-charged, hyperbolic nonsense such as this are the REAL ESPN commenters!

bohknowsbmore
6 years ago
Reply to  thejerk

He also got a higher percentage of the vote than Cal Ripken Jr. and his 92.5 fWAR over 21 seasons (4.4 per), a guy with multiple MVP awards, the record for HR at the SS position, 19 ASG, and the consecutive games streak. That THIS is the major travesty of HoF voting is definitely colored by his Yankee-dom.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  bohknowsbmore

Yes. Cal Ripken should have been unanimous, and everyone who didn’t vote for him is a prick.

bglick4
6 years ago
Reply to  bohknowsbmore

I’m voting that a line be added to Jeter’s plaque that says, “He’s here, but Ripken was a lot better.”

Michael Rosenberg
6 years ago
Reply to  bohknowsbmore

Ripken also got a higher percentage of the vote than Cy Young and his 131.5 WAR over 22 seasons. What a disingenuous argument. We want the HOF voters to be better than they were in 1937 and better than they were in 2006. If Jeetz is an obvious HOFer then there’s no use withholding a vote over such nonsense.

bohknowsbmore
6 years ago

Cy Young was in the bloodbath that was the first couple of ballots. My point was only that Jeter not being unanimous is hardly close to the biggest snub via non-unanimity we’ve seen. There’s more deserving, modern cases even at his own position. That was my only point. Nothing “disingenuous” about it.

OddBall Herrera
6 years ago

Walker goes in as a Rockie? Expo?!

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago

Either as a Rockie or with no logo.
1170 games with Rockies. 674 with the Expos.

lakawak
6 years ago

With today’s game, the Hall of fame needs to do away with that altogether. And if they don’t, they should NEVER force a player to go in as a team that they don’t want to. But really, they need to adapt with the times and realize that at least 75% of the players getting in from now on will have played significant portions of their careers for at least two teams.

Lanidrac
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

There are still plenty of Hall of Famers primarily associated with one team even if they played for others, and there is always the no logo option. You shouldn’t take that away from the fans.

Besides, some teams rely on it when deciding on retired numbers.

synco
6 years ago

He goes in with DL on his cap.

Ba-dump.

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago

I think it’s interesting with Bonds and Clemens their actual vote totals went down this year
Clemens had 242 this year 253 last year
Bonds had 241 this year 251 last year

So even with a higher percentage lost some votes. If they had been able to keep their vote totals where they were last year- with the fewer voters would have been up around 63-64% and felt a lot closer.

Next years ballot is really interesting. Don’t think any new nominee will get in, and few will even stick around for a 2nd year.

thestatbook
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

The real question is: which first ballot players in 2021 will even garner 5%? Maybe Mark Buehrle?

Craftcj
6 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

Possibly Buehrle, but Tim Hudson seems slightly more likely.

thestatbook
6 years ago
Reply to  Craftcj

I can’t recall a more underwhelming group of first ballot guys.

Craftcj
6 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

Probably have to go back to 2006: no HOFers, and only two first timers crossed the 5% threshold. The leading candidate was Hershiser, who seems comparable to Hudson and Buehrle.

Da Bear
6 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

If by some remote chance Buehrle gets in, you can be sure that at least his induction speech will be quick.

Doug LampertMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  Da Bear

I hope he gets in just so pitching coaches can make the speech: “Look guys, I know you like to spend some time between pitches, but always remember that Buehrle is in the Hall of Fame. There’s a real advantage to ‘catch the ball, throw the ball’ baseball.”

olethrosMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  thestatbook

I fucking hope Buehrle sticks around for the full ten or gets inducted. He’s a lot closer just on the standard numbers than most people realize, and the 14 consecutive 200+ IP seasons seals the deal for me. Everyone else who’s done that is in the Hall.

NATS FanMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Hershiser was better than Hudson or Buerhle! He was god like for one season with the dodgers and damn good several other years.

dl80Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Hudson’s and Buerhle’s best years were each better than Hershiser’s by WAR.

eharlemplayer
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

No question Hershiser was vastly superior the Buhrle or Hudson. Tommy Lasorda’s old school way handling of pitchers ruined both Orel and Fernando. They would be in Cooperstown if they were not overworked so early in their careers.

eharlemplayer
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

If WAR values any season by Buehrle or Hudson more than Bulldog’s incredible 1988, it a problem with WAR. Hershisher continued his late season magic in the postseason, too. He was in a zone you only see once in a generation for about 3 months. Check out the game logs.

lakawak
6 years ago
Reply to  eharlemplayer

Well…I think it is clear that WAR IS stupid.

And not sure why you were downvoted. Some moron millennial, I would bet. Because Hudson’s 2003 WAR is slightly higher than Hershiser’s 1988. But the stats are RIDICULOUSLY lopsided in favor of Hershiser. Far better record, Far better ERA, no contest in CGs and Shutouts. (IF a shutout doesn’t count much for WAR than the category is a joke…how can you possibly help your team win more than by not allowing a single run for the entire game?) Better WHIP. More strikeouts. Ate up more innings. He even had a Save!

So it absolutely shows why WAR is a joke. But you see..millennials can’t think for themselves. They need everything quantified for them. Even if the data is absurd.

CM52
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

OK, boomer.

The average NL ERA in 1988 was 3.45. The average AL ERA in 2003 was 4.53. Before you went on your moronic rant, maybe you should have considered the run environments both pitched in. You know, like WAR does.

gettwobrute79Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

I can’t tell if this is performance art.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  eharlemplayer

The issue is people using FIP-WAR for a pair of players who demonstrated over a massive sample size their ability to outperform their ERA predictors.

Orel was much better by RA9-WAR in 88 and 89 than Buehrle ever managed.

The difference is that Buehrle was a mid-range ace for 5 years before settling in as a #2
for the next 10, while Hershiser was truly elite for 5 years, then settled in as 3/4 starter for the rest of his career.

bohknowsbmore
6 years ago

I will agree that I prefer bWAR for pitchers with long careers.

Lanidrac
6 years ago

Yes, this is why Fangraphs’ Pitching WAR has always been a joke. While BR’s version has it’s own flaws (partly because we still don’t have good advanced pitching mechanics compared to what we have for offense), it’s still the much superior metric for analyzing actual performance. WAR isn’t meant to be a predictive stat in the first place.

That being said, by B-R WAR, Hudson’s 2003 (7.5) still outranks Hershiser’s 1988 (7.2), probably due to the run environment like CM52 mentioned.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I just use FanGraphs RA9-WAR (hidden at the bottom of the page), to eliminate the vagaries of B-Ref’s post-facto attempts to include defense.

It all evens out over 10 years.

lakawak
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Except that isn’t true. AS stupid as WAR is, Hershiser’s 1988 was a 7.2. Buerhle’s best was 6.1. In fact, HErshiser’s 1989 and 1987 were also higher than Buerhle’s best year. I am confused as to why you wouldn’t take 15 seconds too look it up rather than posting such obviously incorrect information. Meanwhile, while Hudson barely beats him for one year, both their top 3 years makes Hershiser the winner.

Don’t try bluffing on the internet. You can only bluff people that you are smarter than, and that means no one for you.

Craftcj
6 years ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Hudson and Buehrle both surpass Hershiser by bWAR and fWAR. If you like more traditional stats, both have more wins than Hershiser, too. But the point is that all three are very similar overall, so neither Hudson nor Buehrle will likely make a strong HOF showing.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Craftcj

I actually expect them to last the full 10!

Both are textbook #2 starters, who should have enough affection from local writers to stick around, a la Pettitte.

Dmjn53
6 years ago

Well either way, they get in via the Veteran’s Committee the way Jack Morris did (they were both far, far better than Morris)

Luy
6 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

But neither represent the middle finger to stat-nerd, mom-basement dwellers the way Morris did.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

…because they were much better, haha!

SnowLeopard
6 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Other SPs with better hall of fame credentials than Jack Morris: Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling. And Bret Saberhagen, David Cone, Kevin Brown, and Tommy John. And David Wells, Jamie Moyer, Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant, and Rick Reuschel.

eharlemplayer
6 years ago

“he merely replicated his outstanding regular season showing in the postseason instead of becoming even more dominant. “

You couldn’t be more wrong. The level of competition rises significantly in the postseason. No stat-padding against the weaker teams. Furthermore, given the importance of the games, the teams’ best pitchers get the lion’s share of the innings. In the playoffs. Jeter consistently excelled against the best pitchers on the best teams.

eharlemplayer
6 years ago
Reply to  eharlemplayer

How is .310/.377/.440 against the good and bad (regular season)!the same as .308/.374/.465 vs playoffs teams in countless high leverage situations? It’s clearly not. Context matters. If you disagree, please enlighten me.

tung_twista
6 years ago
Reply to  eharlemplayer

Nobody is saying that it is same same but compared to the difference in Rivera’s regular season ERA of 2.21 vs. postseason ERA of 0.70, yeah, I have no problem categorizing it as Jeter duplicating his outstanding regular season.

eharlemplayer
6 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

“Nobody is saying that it is the same”

“I have no problem categorizing it as Jeter duplicating his outstanding regular season.”

Well, which one? You can’t have it both ways.

Mike NMN
6 years ago

Jeter was obvious, and the anger that I’ve seen expressed about his election is misplaced. By no means is he “Inner Circle” but by no means does he not belong. I’d have been happier seeing Mussina and Schilling go in at the same time, since I see them as comparable, but Schilling is still paying for his mouth. Eventually, that’s going to come to an end, and that blowhard will, appropriately, make the HOF. We don’t have to like these guys to recognize their accomplishments.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

If anything, people should be annoyed that he wasn’t unanimous, which would have put the whole distinction to bed.

Now some Yankees beat writer is going to go tit for tat, and not vote for Beltre or Ichiro “because Jeter wasn’t unanimous.”

lakawak
6 years ago

And again, NO ONE will whine about them not being unanimous. (No one expects them to be.) IT is only Yankee incels who still act like 10 year olds for their favorite team. whining like little babies when things don’t go their way. Still wearing baseball caps..probably backwards, as adults. Thinking people admire them for it.

Michael Rosenberg
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

“Yankee incels”

Y’all need to grow up and realize baseball is just a game, rather than projecting your childish insecurities in the FanGraphs comments section.

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

stop whining

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

Jaysus, kid. Baseball really isn’t worth throwing a tantrum over.

Anyway…both the greatest Japanese import in history and a man with more hits and HRs than George Brett (who received 98% on the first ballot) should absolutely be unanimous, since there’s no good-faith argument against inducting them.

CM52
6 years ago

The saddest part is, based on his anti millennial rant earlier, he’s not even a kid. He’s just a lonely old man who has accomplished nothing in life. So he put on his reading glasses to rant at strangers online.

Jimmie Foxxalorian
6 years ago
Reply to  CM52

Yeah but what if he’s a millennial anti-millennial :-0

hombremomento
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

Did you really just use “incel” on FANGRAPHS

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago

I’d prefer some self important jerk NY sportswriter votes against them. It will provide me with more hate for self important jerk NY sportswriters, which is essentially the fuel that gets me through my day.

oozyalbies1
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

You sound like a New Yorker to me

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike NMN

I don’t care that he’s not unanimous, but to say he’s not “Inner Circle” is just nonsense.

Mike NMN
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

By “Inner Circle” I mean an elite, all-time great, in the category of being arguably among the best few at his position. If you want to use WAR as a criteria, Jeter is 88th in lifetime WAR, and he had a long career. It’s not a knock against Jeter to say he’s not in that echelon. Few are.

Dmjn53
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

“Inner Circle” is guys like Mays, Ruth, Williams, and some day Trout.

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I know what it means. I’d put the guy 6th all-time in hits in that upper tier.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

Vince Coleman is 6th all-time in stolen bases. Is he there, too?

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

no, because hits are a more important stat than stolen bases

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

This is also why Paul Molitor was a better player than Willie Mays and Rickey Henderson. More hits, better player. These are FACTS and cannot be refuted.

/s

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Fine, I’ll expand on my reasoning. Coleman was excellent at exactly one thing: stealing bases. He had a career BA of .264, OBP of .324, under 1500 hits, under 30 homeruns. But he stole 549 bases in his 6 first seasons. Jeter was an elite level player from 1996-2012.

That really shouldn’t have been necessary, and i’m disappointed in the lack of intelligent responses.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

Buddy, there was nothing to respond to. Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer. If that’s not good enough for you, and you insist on prolonging this ridiculous discussion about where he falls within the pantheon of Hall of Famers, you’re going to have to make a better argument than “6th all time in a counting stat.”

Luy
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

It is reasonable for someone to make the case he is not top-5 at his own position. That makes for a very large “inner circle”.

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

He’s easily the best shortstop since Ripken, who was really past his prime by the time Jeter became a star. How is best in the last 25 years not inner circle?

Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Ken Griffey Jr., Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Tris Speaker, Duke Snider, Mike Trout. Apparently we’re only allowed 5. Which of these is not inner circle?

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

Chase Utley: inner circle hall of famer

Edit: also Larry Walker!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

This is getting kind of bizarre. Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer, and Willie Mays put up double his fWAR. If you need a guidepost to know which players are regular, all-timer Hall of Famers and which ones are even better than that, this is a pretty good set of benchmarks.

Heck, Mike Trout has put up as much fWAR through age 28 as Derek Jeter has in HIS ENTIRE CAREER.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, I’d say the “Inner Circle” is the Top 20 to 30 position players, and the Top 15 to 25 pitchers.

“Feller-plus” and “Boggs-plus”

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

People keep downgrading my comment, but nobody has offered an intelligent rebuttal.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

Look, if you don’t know the difference between Willie Mays and Derek Jeter, or the difference between 149 and 73, that’s on you. Willie Mays is probably the greatest position player of all time, and Derek Jeter is one of the best shortstops of all time. That’s a pretty big distinction. There are numerous ways to show this, including JAWS, WAR totals, peak WAR totals, Hall of Stats, etc. If you had read any of the articles that Jay has written, you probably wouldn’t be in this position.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

Neither Snider nor Griffey are “Inner Circle,” IMO.

I’d set the cutoff at 90-100 WAR, (but DiMaggio does make the cut, because he missed 3 prime years to WWII).

hombremomento
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

Barry Larkin left your mind?

hombremomento
6 years ago

Finally, Larry made it!

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
6 years ago

So, we should be prepared for Omar Vizquel to be a Hall of Famer right?

rosen380
6 years ago
Reply to  Mahoney

If he hadn’t just died, Maranville probably wouldn’t have gotten elected in 1954. And that was his 14th year on the ballot, so I think he’d have been a long shot by the BBWAA.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
6 years ago

I think he has to wait for the vets committee.

Just like there is a committed block of “no steroids” voters keeping out Bonds/Clemens/etc, I think there’s a block of voters* who believe in advanced metrics and feel Vizquel doesn’t measure up by a wide margin.

I guess I think there’s just too many firm no’s out there for him to cross 75%.

*and this block is growing

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago

Yeah, I’d say it’s closer to the Anti-Morris bloc than the Anti-Rice crew.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago

If he gets in it’d be nice if Andruw Jones gets in

Brad Lipton
6 years ago

With Rivera being the only unanimous choice, I think he has now set the bar (for at least one person) associated with what it means to be unanimous. I guess everyone who sent in a ballot considered Rivera to be the “most worthy” to be unanimous.

And for Jeter…I suspect that several thought of pulling their vote so that Mo would be the only unanimous selection, but one person actually did it. And that person feels vindicated because Mo stands alone now.

Next person to get near 100% in voting would probably be Pujols, I suspect.

lakawak
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad Lipton

IT simply could be that that one voter realized that without the quarter BILLION dollars in payroll surrounding him, enabling him to win lots of World Series, Jeter wouldn’t even be a first year selection at all, let alone unanimous. There are DOZENS of players with FAR FAR FAR better stats than Jeter who were not unanimous. But Yankee fans are the only ones that whine like b*tches over it.

MikeSMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

There’s really only one person on this whole page doing much whining at all.

Luy
6 years ago
Reply to  MikeS

He’s not wrong, though.
There was not this outcry about unanimity for Pedro, Johnson, Maddux, Rickey, Griffey, Ripken.

I think Jeter obviously belongs in the Hall. I think the no unanimity “rule” is dumb.

But I also think Jeter is FAR from the best argument against the unanimity “rule”. And it is telling that the public outcry on Jeter’s behalf is so large, while pretty whisper-y for far more deserving players. Yankee fans are taking the best vote total EVER for a position player as personal affront, which is, frankly, just as unreasonable as the unanimity rule.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

Again, bud…it’s not Yankees’ fans fault that you don’t remember the outcry over Griffey getting snubbed.

Jeter worked as a great test case for unanimity because there’s simply no good-faith argument against him, regardless of the criteria you use.

oozyalbies1
6 years ago
Reply to  Luy

I’m a Yankee fan. I’m friends with Yankee fans. I live in NY. I listen to sports talk. I’m up on the local talking points. I literally have heard no one complain about the lack of unanimity for Jeter (outside of the comments section here, which appears to be more driven by principle than fandom). The local media has literally been exponentially more focused on Eli Manning and Luis Rojas.

I don’t doubt that you’ve observed outcry, but I think you might be looking for it. Or maybe you’re just putting too much stock in what you’re seeing on Twitter.

Truth is, this conversation is just as tiresome this year as it has been forever. Many, many obvious HoFers haven’t received unanimous entry. Many, many of them were better than Jeter. Much useless outcry has been spilled and outrage declared over this, and this year is no different than those past. But no one refers to vote % as some kind of all time player ranking, so who really cares?

Maybe let’s all agree to just skip this when it’s Beltre’s and Ichiro’s turn whether they get 100% or not.

Jimmie Foxxalorian
6 years ago
Reply to  lakawak

lakawakawakawakawakawaka!

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad Lipton

Ichiro

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad Lipton

Pujols might stick around long enough to add another -5WAR… I can see him missing the 100% bar considerably.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago

Pujols also has a couple roids accusations.

andrewj
6 years ago

.817 career OPS for Jeter is pretty uninspiring. I guess if you just do it long enough…

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  andrewj

I mean…it’s identical to Paul Molitor’s.

gettwobrute79Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  andrewj

It’s 20 points higher than Biggio’s.

bcpkid
6 years ago

I’m no Jeter acolyte, but to say of his postseason performance, “he merely replicated his outstanding regular season showing in the postseason instead of becoming even more dominant” is a gross underestimation. Anyone can get hot in short bursts–Jeter did his damage over 700+ plate appearances, against the best pitching staffs in both leagues. He was consistently outstanding under the most pressure-packed conditions, against the most elite competition. Not the same as a June game against the Orioles.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  bcpkid

If you are looking at it in context of a comparison with Rivera, it makes sense. I think if you asked the average fan if Jeter had better numbers in the playoffs, they’d say yes. Despite the fact that he was a great postseason player, the narrative still overrates what he actually did. I think Tim McCarver is mostly responsible.

tung_twista
6 years ago
Reply to  bcpkid

Jeter is a good player but he also has a postseason WPA of 0.
Whatever impactful hits we remember are cancelled out by all the grounders and strikeouts that we don’t.

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
6 years ago

This comment thread is a GD train wreck, holy hell.

kevbren849
6 years ago

if you ignore lakawak it’s not that bad

Jimmie Foxxalorian
6 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

Whats lakawak? Is that a new FanGraphs wack-a-mole game?

BobbyJohn69
6 years ago

On trimming the electorate: It seems like there should be some threshold (90%?, 95%?) that if a player clears that among the electorate at-large, and a writer did not vote for that player, they should lose their voting privileges based on a demonstrated inability to identify a clear Hall of Fame player.

There will always be no-doubters and borderline cases, obviously, but if you cannot recognize the true top-shelf cream of the crop then you have no business engaging in the process.

Dmjn53
6 years ago
Reply to  BobbyJohn69

Feel like it should go the other way too if you use a vote on Brad Penny or Garrett Anderson

Lanidrac
6 years ago
Reply to  BobbyJohn69

I don’t think that’s a call that should or needs to be made. It’s not like there is any real prestige behind a unanimous selection. Plus, there are sometimes strategic reasons to do it, most commonly leaving a sure electee off your ballot in order to better help others while using all 10 votes.

Paul-SF
6 years ago
Reply to  BobbyJohn69

But that’s essentially a ban on strategic voting; what if the writer saw 10 or 11 HOFers on this ballot and also wanted to make sure someone like Abreu stuck around for more consideration? The easiest name to drop would be the one who is obviously going to be inducted regardless of how you vote.

And that assumes Jeter is “the true top-shelf cream of the crop.” Many more people did not vote for Larry Walker this year than Jeter, despite their providing similar value over their careers. Does that mean everyone who didn’t vote for Walker should lose their vote as well? Because if Jeter is “the true top-shelf cream of the crop,” then so is Walker, never mind Rolen.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul-SF

“Traditional Stats” people have good-faith reasons to not vote for Walker and Rolen, though (both have barely over 2000 hits, neither cracked even 400 HRs).

Like, they’re wrong, but they’re not being dicks about it.

Paul-SF
6 years ago

Oh, I would not underrate the possibility that at least some percentage of them are, in fact, being dicks about it.

Tel
6 years ago

I may not remember right, but I thought that some time back the BBWAA decided to allow internet writers to join, and I am guessing that Jay was one of those who joined at that time. If true, next year’s ballot would be the first for a very large block of new voters which could significantly affect the results for Bonds/Clemens/Schilling.

mgwalker
6 years ago

Honest question: what is the reason for calling Jeter an ‘outstanding ambassador for the sport’? Obviously he was a great player and belongs in the Hall, but I don’t remember him doing much outreach during his career. Kept a remarkably low profile off the field.

At least there’s no question what will be on Jeter’s hat: the staggered NY and Tim McCarver’s drool.

manormachine
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

Obviously you never got one of his gift baskets…

kevbren849
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

The only thing that comes to mind is his Turn 2 Foundation. But I’d guess they mean how he was the face of (or at least one of the faces) of the sport for about 15 years, and managed to avoid any scandals.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

The Jeter-Steinbrenner commercial?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

On another note, I was thinking through the best celebrity athlete commercials and while this is the best baseball one I could think of, pretty much all of the best ones are basketball. The Jordan-Bird McDonalds commercial is probably the best of all time, and then the Grandmama and Uncle Drew commercials.

mgwalker
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Bo Jackson / Bo Diddley?

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Chicks Dig the Long Ball

esotericcd
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

My dude, it’s obviously Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine doing “chicks dig the long ball.”

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  esotericcd

I have never understood why everyone loved that commercial.

tung_twista
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

By dating who’s who of the Hollywood’s hottest, Jeter reached out to all the young boys’ hearts to convince them to pursue baseball.

synco
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

I personally am enjoying the fact that ARod is becoming a beloved figure in retirement as an announcer and baseball goof, while Jeter is becoming reviled as yet another carpet bagging owner in Miami.

skwallaMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

considering he was voted the face of baseball by the fans after he retired I would say he did more for growing the game than most players. You can split hairs about his statistics all you want but Jeter was the most popular MLB player of his generation hands down

mgwalker
6 years ago
Reply to  skwalla

A good number of hands are going to point toward Junior on that one

Famous Mortimer
6 years ago

To every BBWAA member who was happy to ignore PEDs when they were happening all round baseball, to have suddenly discovered their moral core now when they’re actually receiving scrutiny: congratulations.

manormachine
6 years ago

Marlins fans, if there are any left, can no doubt think of a baseball related reason not to vote for Jeter.

Runaway ToasterMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago

I, for one, would like to thank lakawak for reminding of me that I hate the Hall of Fame and it’s surrounding angst. I *almost* got invested again after a few years of not caring, but seeing his inane ranting throughout this comment page has pushed me back out. It’s very freeing, and I recommend the idea of casting aside the HoF to any baseball fan.

When do pitchers and catchers report?

Jimmie Foxxalorian
6 years ago

That’s great that Spongebob finally got in! Can we get Squidworth some love? He’s a very underrated sea creature and is known to agitate other sea creatures, but man he’s clutch. Clutch!

NathanielMember since 2016
6 years ago

I can’t believe Jackie Robinson’s election margin was so slim! Could this have been a sign of lingering racism in the voting body? Or a reflection of his relatively short career in the majors (and ignoring his military service and accomplishments in the Negro Leagues?) Jay, have you written about his election? I’d love your take.

At least his margin was a little higher than Herb Pennock’s…

EltnegMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Nathaniel

Yeah, that immediately jumped out. I guess writers could point to career counting stats that were well below the usual thresholds, but come on: if there was ever a good reason to excuse a short career…

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Nathaniel

Hell, Joe DiMaggio took 3 ballots to make it.

I think a lack of round numbers played a role…along with the racism.

Dr. Doom
6 years ago

Jay, two questions I’m hoping you can address for me in a future article (maybe your next?):

What are your early predictions for the 2021 ballot?

Why have so few (less than 60%) of the ballots been made publicly available? It seems like it was higher before election last year… maybe I’m wrong about that. If I am, then ignore the question. If I’m right, what do you think accounts for the change in people’s attitudes about publishing? Thanks.

bglick4
6 years ago

I think Yankees’ fans have shown themselves to be entirely too brittle. I think they need a decade of losing to toughen them up a bit. Think it’s bad having your guy miss out on Hall of Fame unanimity? Try losing 30-3 then getting no-hit by a rookie a few days later. That’ll toughen you up good.

SnowLeopard
6 years ago

According to Mr. Tibb’s tracker, voters who did not vote for Bonds/Clemens had generally more low-information “Wow, that’s certainly an opinion” ballots across the board.

First column is Yes included both, second column is No left both off:

161 – 70 : Number of voters
100% – 100% : Jeets
85% – 80% : Walker
85% – 63% : Schilling
47% – 60% : Vizquel
49% – 39% : Rolen
33% – 41% : BillyWags
45% – 13% : Scheff
30% – 40% : Kent
31% – 36% : Helton
44% – 1% : Manny
25% – 20% : Andruw
22% – 0% : Sosa
13% – 3% : Pettitte
6% – 7% : Abreu
0% – 3% : Konerko

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
6 years ago
Reply to  SnowLeopard

Voting for Manny but not Clemens/Bonds is bananas.

SnowLeopard
6 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Possibly even bananasier is the ballot of Sheldon Ocker – “retired reporter from the Akron Beacon Journal and Ohio.com” – who, among his seven selections, voted for Jason Giambi but not Clemens/Bonds.

And possibly bananasiest are Mark Purdy and Christian Red, who both voted for Vizquel and Jeter and no one else.

skwallaMember since 2024
6 years ago

Jeter should have been unanimous as well as a number of MLB players throughout history. The more players who are unanimous the quicker we leave behind dumb traditions and simply honor deserving players as they should. Saying Jeter should not be unanimous because Griffey or Maddux or whoever was not is basically the same logic that kept those players from being unanimous themselves. Regardless, awesome to see walker get his deserving place in cooperstown

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  skwalla

Uh-oh – watch out for the downvote brigade!