The Mariners Can Fill the Seller Void
At some point, I won’t continue to feel obligated to post this. That point isn’t now. The Mariners have the longest active playoff drought in the four major North American sports. Here are their playoff chances over the course of the 2018 regular season:
This is all well-established and relatively ancient history now, but it feels fresh and raw again with the benefit of some distance. Yes, the good Mariners were clearly overachieving. But in the middle of June, they stood at 46-25, 11 games ahead of the eventual wild-card A’s. The Mariners were going to snap the drought, because their lead in the race was virtually regression-proof. Then the Mariners regressed. The A’s, meanwhile, never lost again. The drought lives.
You wonder how things would be different today had the Mariners won a few extra ballgames. Had the A’s lost a few extra ballgames. Odds are, the Mariners still would’ve lost to the Yankees, but even getting that far would’ve meant something. Alas, a promising season turned out bad, and now the Mariners are in the news. They’re in the news because they might try to get worse.
Pick a source. According to Jeff Passan, the Mariners are open to blowing it up.
Sources: The Mariners are considering a full-fledged teardown this winter. If trade market is strong, they’ve told teams they’re willing to move just about anyone. And if that happens, they have indicated they’re willing to wait a few years to build a competitive team again.
— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) November 6, 2018
According to Jon Heyman, the Mariners are open to selling, but not quite tearing it all the way down:
Sounds now like Mariners intend to hold onto Haniger, Diaz and Gonzalez. Word is: “Everyone else is up for grabs.”
— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) November 6, 2018
And according to Mariners beat writer Ryan Divish, there is indeed talk of at least a partial sale. Call it a reload, if you want to. It’s looking increasingly certain the Mariners will trade away at least one good player. There’s the opportunity for them to trade away several. While it might seem foolhardy to subtract from a team that just finished 89-73, the Mariners are coming to terms with the reality of their position. And the market itself could select their direction for them. The circumstances point toward a sale.
Let’s talk first about those 89 wins. Wins in isolation are good, but of course, what matters more are wins in context. With 89 wins, the Mariners still wound up eight games out of a playoff spot. They had the seventh-most wins in the American League. If you switch over to BaseRuns, the Mariners wound up 15 games out of a playoff spot. They tied for the seventh-most wins in the American League. And while obviously the current 2019 projected standings are missing a ton of information — namely, all the transactions of the next several months — the Mariners are projected for the eighth-most wins in the American League. They’re projected ten wins behind the Yankees, who project for the fourth-best AL record. The Yankees are only going to get stronger. The Mariners have limited money and the game’s worst farm system. It’s one of the worst farm systems in recent memory.
The Mariners are stuck in the middle. They’re too good to be lousy, but they’re nowhere close to the best teams in the league. I assume that they know that. Help doesn’t appear to be on the way. Nelson Cruz is currently a free agent. As 2018 showed, the Mariners can hang around provided they get lucky, but good luck is nothing to bank on, and besides, it caught up with the team in the end. Maybe the Mariners can fluke into the next Max Muncy. That would help. Every single team could say the same thing. Luck is random. Teams are lucky to get lucky, and the Mariners need to understand where they are.
They can keep trying, God bless ’em. The Jerry Dipoto model is generally to keep trying. There’s reason to believe Mariners ownership doesn’t have an appetite for blowing it up. But there’s still more context to talk about here. The Mariners don’t have a bad baseball team. They’re not the Orioles, or the Royals, or the Tigers. Yet the Mariners don’t have a strong baseball team. It’s hard to see how they could have a strong baseball team in 2019 following a course of action that isn’t somehow dependent on good luck. And if you look at the other bad baseball teams around, you notice they don’t have much more selling to do. The sellers, for the most part, have already sold. The Mariners could almost take the trade market over.
The Marlins will, at some point, trade J.T. Realmuto, who might be the best catcher in the game. The Diamondbacks will at least entertain thoughts of trading Paul Goldschmidt. Take a look at the Mariners, though. They have a whole roster, but in terms of trade value, the big three would be Mitch Haniger, James Paxton, and Edwin Diaz. Haniger has another four years of team control. Paxton has two. Diaz has four. Would there be a better outfielder on the trade market? Would there be a better starting pitcher on the trade market? Would there be a better relief pitcher on the trade market?
The trade market might include, say, Nicholas Castellanos, or Billy Hamilton. Wil Myers and Kevin Pillar might conceivably be out there. Among starters, you’ve perhaps got Michael Fulmer, and Dan Straily, and the upside of Marcus Stroman. Maybe Zack Greinke and his giant contract are put on the block. Dylan Bundy could be gettable. There are interesting relievers, like Kirby Yates, and Craig Stammen, and possibly Jose Leclerc. Teams have long been interested in Mychal Givens.
Haniger, though, is cheap, and not yet 28, and since he debuted three years ago he’s posted a 130 wRC+, putting him around guys like Khris Davis, George Springer, and Edwin Encarnacion. Haniger’s a corner outfielder, but he’s center-field capable. Over the past three years, as a starter, Paxton has run a K-BB% like those posted by Carlos Carrasco, Jacob deGrom, and Luis Severino. Over the past three years, as a reliever, Diaz has run a K-BB% like those posed by Dellin Betances, Craig Kimbrel, and Aroldis Chapman.
To put it another way, and to simplify, here are a bunch of percentiles for Haniger, Paxton, and Diaz. These are based just on regular WAR, and all the numbers are calculated on a rate basis. You see 2016-2018 percentile ranks, 2018 percentile ranks, and projected 2019 percentile ranks, based on Steamer.
Haniger is a solidly above-average everyday player. He might not have Christian Yelich-level upside, but you can think of him a little like how you thought of Adam Eaton a few years back. Paxton is someone whose health is the only thing that’s held him back from being widely recognized as an ace. The performance is there, and he’s a hard-throwing, strike-throwing lefty who hasn’t had a major elbow problem. He just made a career-high 28 starts. Diaz is one of the most dominant one-inning pitchers in the world. He just struck out 44% of his opponents. It was the second time in three years he’s cleared 40%. Edwin Diaz is a living, breathing absurdity.
If the Mariners want to own the trade market, they could have the top outfielder available, the top starter available, and the top reliever available. There is, of course, the other market — the free-agent market — but even there, the picture doesn’t change much, especially when you factor in cost. Free agents get free-agent money. The Mariners’ big three are still in their team-control years. And even including free agents, there’s not a free-agent reliever better than Diaz. There’s probably not a free-agent starter better than Paxton. That depends on what you think of Patrick Corbin. Corbin might make $100 million over the next five years. Paxton might make, say, $20 million over the next two.
That’s not all the Mariners could think about. Mike Zunino has two more years of team control, and there are already rumors linking him to the Rays. Jean Segura is signed to a modest long-term contract, and he has a no-trade clause, but those get waived every year. I imagine Segura wouldn’t mind getting away from the Mariners if the Mariners were to choose to rebuild. In theory, the Mariners could move the cost-controlled Marco Gonzales. Perhaps someone out there is still interested in Dee Gordon. The Mariners have more players with positive trade value than just the main three.
But the main three have major, major trade value, especially in this present market. They’re excellent players who would be affordable under any existing big-league budget. They all have multiple years of team control left, and the other sellers just can’t offer much in the way of competition. It’s going to be up to the Mariners to decide how far they want to take this, because there’s going to be plenty of interest. There are going to be compelling proposals for multiple players.
If I had to guess, the Mariners won’t completely blow it up. I don’t think ownership wants to go in that direction. Of the big three, only Paxton is likely to leave. The Mariners will want something like the Chris Archer package. The Gerrit Cole package is a much better comp. For Cole, the Pirates got a potential long-term starter, a potential long-term third baseman, and a potential long-term reliever. They also got an outfield prospect, but the bulk of the return was lower-ceiling, and major-league ready. If the Mariners did something like that with Paxton, they could try to tread water in the meantime while saying they’re also improving the future.
It’s pretty easy to see the Mariners deciding to move Paxton. They can see the market, and they know where they are. Beyond Paxton, it gets more complicated. If the Mariners want to build up the farm in a meaningful way, the option will be there to trade Haniger and Diaz. But it’s never that easy to kick off a rebuild. Not when you’re still just months removed from almost tasting a playoff berth. This’ll be a test of the Mariners’ willingness to give up. They’ve been bad before, but seldom on purpose.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.


The Cleveland Browns have been to the playoffs more recently than the Mariners. I died a little just typing that.
The Seattle SuperSonics have been to the playoffs more recently than the Seattle Mariners.
Talk about rubbing it in…
What value does Diaz have to a team that has no clear path to contention? Seems like another obvious choice to be moved.
Yeah, I don’t get the “partially blow it up” thing. So what, they can be good again in 3 years and have a Diaz making $12M in his final year of arbitration that coincides with the first year Seattle will be good again? Oh, and he just had his career year. Oh, and his arm has probably fallen off already after how much they overworked him this year.
If Seattle trades Paxton/Segura and *doesn’t* trade guys like Diaz, then they deserve all the playoff droughts that they get.
I’m wondering how many BUYERS there are left these days. There are a lot of teams who are playing for the future rather than the present. And it seems like most of the good teams have pretty full rosters, and a number of the potential buyers like the Red Sox and Cubs are starting to run low on minor league talent to trade.
Rays, A’s, Braves, Phillies, Padres could all be BUYERS. Teams on the rise with deep farm systems.
Also, the Brewers.
The Dodgers would be a good spot for Diaz
I can’t imagine a contender not wanting Paxton or Diaz. Haniger is a nice piece for a team losing out on signing Harper. Phillies could definitely use for example!
Forgot to note that this is probably part of the reason we’ve seen chatter about the Indians moving a starter. They see what the starting-pitcher market is, they see how far ahead of the rest of the division they are, and they figure they might be able to leverage a quality starter into an overpay. But such a move would still be tough for the Indians to swallow, because they’re good now. The Mariners, not so much. The Mets could also enter the market with deGrom/Syndergaard, but that doesn’t appear to be their direction now.
I think they are better off rolling the dice on one more season, at least a half season, before throwing in the towel. If things turn the right way, you get $28 million of Felix coming off the books after next year, and if Cano stays good and stops cheating, there isn’t a lot of sunk money as the only other players with money after next year are Seager, Leake, Gordon, and Segura. Cano’s deal is definitely under water at this point, and Gordon’s is too, a little. The rest are positive contracts or close in the case of Leake.
If some things with young players bounce your way, and you avoid any other bad contracts, you could be looking at a good financial situation going into next off-season, when you could also hope that the Astros are no longer World beaters.
If you tear it down, you are just conceding not only 2019, but 2020 and 2021 as well. And years past that are not somehow guaranteed to be good simply because you gave up on the previous ones.
I think a lot of what’s motivating this is that when you only have 3 everyday position players and 1 starter under 30, a laughingstock farm system, and your only under-25 star is a reliever who you’ve used 3 days in a row multiple times the past 2 years, not blowing it up is also conceding 2020, 2021, and beyond.
Teams constructed like the Mariners get worse, not better. The only realistic path to 2019 wild-card contention is probably to add Harper or Machado to this roster and there’s been no indication the team is willing to add that kind of payroll. For 2020 and beyond, the picture looks really bleak unless moves are made now with the future in mind.
I think Fangraphs recently has made people lose sight of exactly how unpredictable baseball is. I know the Astros/Indians/Red Sox/Yankees did all win just like they said they would, but it usually doesn’t actually work that way. Look at the Braves and Brewers. If you keep a handful of good players, and the M’s have a handful of good players, you give yourself a shot. Teams like the 2014 Giants and 2015 Royals did not look any better than these Mariners, but they gave themselves a shot and they won. I think the 2016 Cubs and 2017 Astros made people think this was the only way to operate. But that isn’t true, and it especially isn’t true when everyone else is doing it. You get in and you have a chance. You win 65 games and you don’t.
Paxson will look good in Yankee pinstripes. Wonder if it will cost them more than Jesus Montero and Noesi this time?
Yet another Mariners puff piece by a former Mariner writer…
(its a joke guys).
I don’t really have a problem with the Mariners blowing it up, but it was pretty obvious they had three main needs last offseason: Starting pitching, center field, and first base. It was really obvious that unless they upgraded, they were not going to be able to compete. They did not upgrade (and to the extent they did, it looked like a bad call at th time) and nearly lucked into a playoff spot anyway. If they think they can get away without getting a good starting pitcher or two and a center field and having the same record again, then they might as well blow it up.
The Mariners have a lot of players who are basically at the absolute peak of their value. Gonzales, Diaz, and Segura will probably never be more valuable than they are right now. Gonzales is young, cheap, is coming off a great season which was totally out of the blue. Everyone wants young, controllable, cheap starting pitching. Segura has turned himself into a good defensive shortstop with a more favorable BABIP (important for a guy who doesn’t walk or K much), but he’s not getting any better or cheaper than he is right now. Jeff covers Diaz, but he’s an absolute monster, and you could imagine someone paying a lot for him.
I’m less sure about Paxton and Haniger. Are there teams out there that would be willing to pay an FV60, FV55, an FV50 and an FV40 for him? He’s a corner outfielder and I can’t think of any team with prospects that really feels like they need a corner outfielder right now. You could wait on him until someone is willing to pay. On the other hand, his team control will only drop, and he is coming off a great year. As for Paxton, I think it depends on whether the return looks more like Chris Archer or Gerrit Cole, and if it is more like Cole, they may be able to get more in-season (or he could get hurt and fetch nothing, but there is upside there).
The problem with trading Paxton and Haniger is really that it is getting harder and harder to find teams that are willing and able to trade top prospects for stars. Maybe the Nationals or Braves would, but the other teams with the best prospects are the Reds, Rays, Twins, Blue Jays, Rockies, White Sox, and Padres. I just don’t see it.
The Braves definitely have the prospect resources to trade for Haniger and they have the need as well. It would all come down to acceptable price for them.
They could very well be in the mix for Paxton or Zunino too.
The more I think about it, I suspect that Paxton for Andujar and Loisaiga would get it done. The Yankees would never consider this because they seem committed to making Andujar work at third base. But since I think that won’t work, I think that would be a win-win for everyone.
If the Braves want Haniger, I’m sure they could get him. I just don’t know that they have the appetite for trading away guys like Wright, Soroka, or Anderson. I bet they could agree some secondary pieces like Waters, Wilson, Wentz, or Allard. It’s the headliner that is going to be the sticking point.
Maybe if they sign Machado they’d do that deal
I don’t know that I totally buy the commitment to Andujar. Could just be posturing. Trade him + sign Machado just seems sooo Yankees.
I’d bet they’ll be big time players in the SP trade market, in addition to going after Corbin who they’re said to have coveted in the past. They’ve only got 3 rotation spots locked in right now, and could really use another top of the rotation SP.
The Red Sox WS will have an impact, as well. You better believe they hate seeing that and will look to add as many elite players as possible at whatever cost (money and / or prospects).
There are two parts of developing talented prospects into good major league players. (1) Get talented prospects. (2) Develop them into good major league players. Even if this plan achieves the first part, have the Mariners demonstrated the ability to develop players?
That’s a good question. Historically they’ve been dire at player development, and it was one of Dipoto’s primary focuses when he became GM. Unfortunately, it will likely be a few years before we know if he was successful. I mean, it can’t get worse, right? …right?
You can’t just give up on trying to develop players from within though
Definitely should keep trying. However, you first need to fix the reasons why you were bad previously. It doesn’t appear to be a talent problem, it seems like they had a development problem.
Teardown seems like a logical path for the Mariners, but it will focus everything on development, which has been a weakness. At least the guy who buys ice cream cones is gone.
Two things: 1) the current development team doesn’t have any track record, positive or negative. Not sure they will for awhile since they’ve traded almost everyone away. 2) if past FOs are relevant but you only look at history using the Mariners’ roster, you miss a handful of impact guys who they developed and shipped away in bad trades – Adam Jones, Shin-Soo Choo, and Asdrubal Cabrera come to mind as guys who all reached Triple-A with the Ms before becoming 3-5 win players elsewhere.
And yeah, as Goms said, if you start from the premise that you won’t be able to develop talent anyway, you’ve pretty much given up.
Personally I would say reshuffle the deck this offseason and if it doesn’t work then blow it up at trade deadline.
As a Cubs fan, I’m curious if a trade based around Addison Russell for Segura would make sense for both parties. Russell needs a place to rebuild his career, Mariners get a cost controlled SS with upside, Cubs fill void with a good complementary player at with decent priced contract.
How Fans interrupt Passan’s Tweet: Diaz, Segura, Haniger, Gonzalez all available!!!
Reality: Gordon, Vogelbach, Pazos, Nicasio or take this contract off my hands (Cano & Leake) available.
Cano back to New York? Didi’s injury may have opened the door. (Gleyber to SS, then slide Cano to 1B once Didi is healthy)
Cano is still good, but his contract has negative value. I doubt Ellsbury for Cano would even be enough of an offset for the Yankees as they will have to open the bank for Judge, Gleyber, Sanchez, etc in future seasons.
M’s are stuck with Cano unless they are willing to eat a lot of that deal.
Paxton feels like the guy the Padres should move for, in which case I see Josh Naylor as the key piece of that deal. He’s destined for the AL. Add one of their several 45-50 FV arms like Nix or Quantrill, and I think that’s a good starting point for a deal.
That doesn’t make sense for anyone…
Please tear it down Jerry. Please.
These rumors have been flying around since the end of the season press conference. I’m just curious if everyone else that’s (willingly) movable would collectively net enough in return to get Seattle back into the race by 2021.
I think the Mariners have to do their best to compete for the 2nd WildCard slot. I agree with another poster that Diaz could be the trade chip that fills in some holes and also brings in some “futures.” The Cubs (are they going to trust their bullpen to Brandon Morrow?), the Dodgers (Jansen has issues and even if he is healthy they get a huge 1-2 kick) and the Cardinals (Hicks may be better as the 7-8 guy) all have surplus players at positions the Mariners need to fill. Certainly the Cubs have Schwarber and possibly Happ as a package for a zero-cost #1 closer. The Dodgers would probably part with Verdugo and Ruiz (or of more of a ready-now return is needed..perhaps Pederson and Austin Barnes, plus Andrew Toles thrown in) and the Cards have young starters, so look for a Weaver or a Wacha +. The Mariners would still have Colome to close, and while he is no Diaz, I doubt if the difference of a few blown saves over the course of the year will dent into the positive value of a Schwarber or a Weaver etc.
I think you’re making the case for a complete tear-down. I’d rather have prospects like Verdugo and Ruiz than any of Schwarber, Happ, Barnes, Pederson, or Wacha. Not that these are bad players, but Diaz should get you elite prospects (now that I think of it, a headliner better than Verdugo or Ruiz), so why settle on merely slightly better than average players? I don’t see the Cards giving up Weaver.
M’s fans here, Paxton is my favorite player and a also a top 10, maybe even top 5 pure talent starter in the whole sport. Due to several different injuries of various degrees of concern, he hasn’t quite “put it all together” over a whole year just yet, though he put up 4.7 WAR in 2017. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit to see him have career years and put up 10 WAR over the next 2 seasons.
I can’t believe how quickly Seager went off a cliff. Woof!
It’s one down year, his first one. Too soon to say whether he’s totally done.
These days any “real” prospects are so overvalued that your best bet is a smattering of lower ceiling prospects and hope some turn out. Trading for prospects used to be a great model because at some point teams were like “Oh him!? He’s not even in the majors! Fine, take ’em!” but that has shifted to players being considered cheap cornerstone candidates from a very early point in their development.
What about Kyle steady Seager? Typically a 3.5 WAR guy