The Myth of Ceilings
Tonight, the 2016 MLB draft kicks off, with the first couple of rounds being broadcast on MLB Network (and MLB.com) starting at 7 pm eastern. For the next few days, teams are going to make their best educated guesses as to what players might develop into in four or five years, and down the line, we’ll look back at these few days as a big turning point for some organization. Someone is going to hit a home run in the draft tonight, and end up with a franchise-altering class of talent that could propel them forward for years to come. Teams put a lot of resources and energy into trying to make their picks as effective as possible because the long-term impact of quality drafting can be tremendous.
But the reality is that we’re not going to know, tonight, who is hitting a home run as they’re taking their swings. The draft is an exercise in forecasting, but it’s the most difficult kind of forecasting to do; projecting long-term futures based on incomplete or unreliable information. At the very top of the draft, there’s usually enough information to provide some confidence that the players being picked are the cream of this particular crop, but beyond those first few picks, it becomes very difficult to parse the differences. This isn’t a knock on scouts or scouting; it’s just that this particular job of identifying future production so far out is just really hard.
But, interestingly, even with the tremendous uncertainty that goes along with these picks, one term has stuck in the draft and prospect lexicon that suggests that we know more than we actually do, and you’re going to hear that term a lot tonight. For almost every pick, you’re going to hear about a players “ceiling”, or upside, or some other term for the upper limit of his potential. Big guys with big fastballs are given heigh ceiling grades, and diminutive college hitters with contact skills but lacking in power will be labeled as role players or utility guys, and by and large, you’ll find a lot more high-end players in the first group than the latter one.
But when you look at the current major league leaderboard, it should become pretty clear that the idea of an actual ceiling for any player is a significant overestimation of our ability to project their skills this far out.
You know who currently leads major league hitters in WAR? Well, sure you do, because it’s Mike Trout, and by this point of every season, the answer is always Mike Trout. But do you know who is right behind him, at the #2 spot on the list of the most productive hitters this season? Jose Altuve, the Astros 5’6 second baseman who signed for $15,000 back in 2007. Never has there been a more obvious candidate for a low-ceiling player than Altuve, who is the shortest player in the big leagues, and even after he got himself to the big leagues through dominating performances in the minors, he looked like a singles-and-steals slap hitter, a guy who could play at this level because of his contact but simply lacked the power to be anything more.
But then, somehow, Altuve developed power. He’s running a .220 ISO at this point, and even if that won’t last, his power development over the last few years has put him in the running for the title of baseball’s best second baseman. And now that he’s drawing walks, he’s basically become an all-around offensive machine, and one of the very best players in baseball at any position.
Altuve, of course, is an outlier. There aren’t any other 5’6 guys in baseball because height really is an advantage, and he just happens to be the one 5’6 guy who has enough other skills to overcome his size. But there are too many other guys who got hit with low-ceiling labels who have turned into superstars for us to continue to give credence to a term that suggests that we know right where the upper limit on a player’s potential actually is.
Look at the list of the best players in baseball, and you’ll find names like Trout and Bryce Harper mixed in with Paul Goldschmidt, Josh Donaldson, Mookie Betts, Matt Carpenter, Ben Zobrist, and Kyle Seager. These guys have been MVP caliber performers despite the fact that their physical limitations had them all pegged as “low ceiling” players, and in basically every case, the reason they’ve outperformed expectations is that they figured out how to hit for power. And when you add power to a broad base of other skills, you get excellent all-around performers.
Projecting power from some players is pretty easy. Everyone knew Joey Gallo had 80 power coming out of high school, and it’s not a surprise that he’s turned into one of the most prodigious sluggers in the minor leagues. But identifying that a player not only doesn’t have power now, but cannot develop it in the future? That’s a lot harder, and something we should be significantly more reticent to suggest. Non-power hitters develop power regularly enough that it’s probably prudent to stop inferring that they can’t or won’t, and we should stop treating them as if performance levels that require power are out of their range.
This doesn’t mean that we don’t know anything about which groups of players are more likely to become high-level performers than others, nor should teams just start drafting every slap hitter they can find under the belief that they can teach them to start driving the ball. But we should probably reconsider whether the word ceiling, which suggests that there’s a practical upper limit of performance, is really the right term to describe the different probabilities of outcomes.
Carlos Correa had more star potential than Mookie Betts, but both had star potential, even if only one of them was talked about in that way. Correa’s development into a great young player was more likely, but Betts’ development into this kind of player wasn’t some kind of impossible, never-before-seen occurrence. We should be able to talk about probabilistic outcomes without resorting to such a firm idea of an upper limit. Too many players have broken through these mythological ceilings to retain that term’s credibility.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Nice piece Dave, and I completely agree. In fact I really wish all baseball forecasting was available as a probabilistic curve, and not just what the mean outcome is. Considering the amount of variation in baseball performance, there has to be a wide variety of outcomes once you factor in health/injury history, age, potential for improvement, etc. right? Does that exist anywhere? Is ZiPS/Steamer available as a probability distribution?
Yes, Baseball Prospectus does a form of this type of probabilistic projection in the form of their Breakout/Improve/Collapse/Attrition probabilities. Gives a useful sense of the probability curve for individual players. Worth taking a look at.
Not exactly the same as ZiPS/Steamer, but SaberSim (which uses Steamer as input) has distributions for daily projections for games and players (https://www.sabersim.com/mlb)
The claim by so many that Marcus Stroman’s height meant he was destined to be a reliever always confused me. Every report seemed to gush over his command, poise, and arsenal of pitches, but ended with “height will likely limit Stroman’s ceiling to a top end reliever”. I hope more teams are starting to rethink how much a player’s physical makeup truly impacts their potential.
What’s wrong with saying that something like that was “likely?” Obviously, a lot of stuff went right for Stroman, just like for Altuve. However, how many starting pitchers are there that are Stroman’s height? And how many little, middle infielders develop strong power – Altuve and (earlier career) Pedroia and…?
I think Dave’s point is that it’s not impossible that unlikely outcomes can occur and therefore saying someone has an absolute ceiling is misleading. It would not have been misleading or incorrect to say that it was unlikely that Altuve was going to be this good.
“What’s wrong with saying that something like that was “likely?””
When there’s no rational basis for it.
http://sabr.org/research/does-pitcher-s-height-matter
I read that, and there’s a major problem with that study. Pitchers aren’t randomly assigned the reliever or starter label.
Yes, among major league starting pitchers height doesn’t influence effectiveness. But it may determine which pitchers are effective enough to be major league pitchers!
I wouldn’t say that Pedroia only had early career power. Still top 10 ISO for his position. He isn’t powerful, but he will hit 15-20 hrs which isn’t anything to scoff at.
Agree with your premise, but I think the nomenclature generally does what its supposed to. Ceiling/floor, safe/risky, etc. denote likelihood of reaching certain probability outcomes, just like you described in the last paragraph about Correa & Betts. Correa still had a higher likely ceiling than Betts – that Betts has exceeded his ceiling doesn’t really change that Correa was more likely all along to be better. Anyone who makes it to the big leagues is basically already a statistic anomaly, so counting the number of major leaguers who have exceeded their ceiling projections is like fishing in a loaded pool.
“…that Betts has exceeded his ceiling…”
But that just highlights Dave’s point. If Betts has exceeded “the upper limit of his potential,” he’s achieved a level that performance that was previously identified as impossible … beyond his capabilities. What does that mean? We’re into Nonsense Land, confirming that this term doesn’t have credibility.
Yea I get your and Dave’s point with this, that “ceiling” implies the 100% maximum of the probability range. My point is that you’re trying to describe an entire probability range of outcomes using a word or two, and words like ceiling still serve that purpose very well. You can’t describe the difference between the potential of Betts and Correa as “Betts has 98-100% range of being 5+ Win players while Correa has 95-100% range of 5+ Win, Betts has 80-98% range of being 3-5 Win while Correa has 50-95% range of 3-5 win, Betts has 50-80% range of 2-3 win while Correa 40-60% of 2-3 win, etc.” because that’s too many words. Just saying Correa has a higher ceiling to describe the scenario above still works very well, regardless of how accurate the “ceiling” turns out to be.
I agree. Given that “identifying future production so far out is just really hard”‘ it is unrealistic to expect that “we know right where the upper limit on a player’s potential actually is”. But it is still something which is very useful to project. I suppose you could call it something other than ‘ceiling’, term itself is aptly descriptive as is. I would only call it a ‘myth’ if it could be demonstrated that we had no ability project the upper limit on a player’s potential, and this article does not address whether or not that is the case.
I wonder how much self-fulfilling prophecy factors in. Are players who fit certain physical profiles given more leeway and opportunity to succeed than those who don’t?
As a former professional player, and from a purely anecdotal perspective, I always thought that this was one of the most overlooked aspects of player development/success.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-many-good-players-were-good-prospects/
Going off of this, isn’t it also fair to say that the concept of floor is also a myth?
Only in that everyone has the same floor: out of baseball.
By the same token one could say every player has the same ceiling: batter/fielder who never makes an out/always makes every play or a pitcher that never allows a base runner.
Like others, I see the problem as using “ceiling” literally. I was arguing Andrelton Simmons’ home run ceiling after his first year and I said 10-15. Then he hit 17 the next year. Was I really wrong?
Given that he hit 113-170% of your ceiling, probably?
Perhaps they meant that Jose Altuve had a low ceiling in the literal sense?
You ever been to Venezuela? Our ceiling was about 6’5″ when I stayed there.
This point is kinda moot: I don’t think serious baseball fans see the word ceiling and ascribe a static value/outcome to it.
Rather, “ceiling” is being used as a shorthand for 75th percentile outcome or something like that. Bett’s 85th or 90th percentile outcome has ended up matching Correa’s 75th percentile band. Neither performance was out of the range of possibilities and the 100th percentile outcome for each would be a batter who never makes an out (unapproachable but theoretically possible).
Neither certitudes about ceilings/floor nor numerical statements of probability are very helpful for describing ranges of outcomes, at say ages 24-30, for a player drafted at ages 18-22. Impressions and broad statements of probability are pretty much as good as it gets. There is just too much uncertainty and quantifying it seems to me to be completely artificial.
The Texas Rangers famously fired a scout who essentially indicated that Noah Syndergaard had no realistic chance of major league success (25th round was, if I recall, his suggestion). There are players for whom this is true, but the words get thrown around way, way too much on the both the positive and negative side.
Do you have a link for the Rangers scout story?
Was Josh Donaldson really a “low ceiling” guy? he actually was a first round pick but took a Long time to make his Tools Count.
I think ceiling is not a fixed Limit but a likely Limit, say if Performance is a bell curve it is like the 2 SD cutoff or so. and vice versa the “floor” of a Player is not 100% sure either.
it is still a usefull concept albeit of course not all that accurate with the limited Information you get from Amateur ball. in the end in Baseball Tools like batspeed or fastball velocity helps but you still Need to be able to hit or pitch.
Good article Dave, and good luck trying to convince anyone that height does not limit one’s ceiling. You could show the proof in statistics to every scout on the planet, and probably 75% would still refuse to acknowledge what is starting them right in the face. It’s a human nature/sub-conscious type of bias that does not apply to baseball ceilings.
Does height have advantages? Sure, 1B can shorten a throw from the infield and collect more outs during the course of a year. A pitcher can reduce reaction time just by being 6’10” as opposed to 5’10”. (A whopping 1 MPH equivalent worth of difference) Does height limit a player’s ability to hit for a high WRC+? No. Never has and never will.
Has the plane of the pitch ever been proven to be harder to hit? Has there ever been one study that can stand up to scrutiny that shows that fastballs at 90 MPH from a 6’10” guy are more effective than from a 5’10” guy?