The Myth of Luis Arraez

Jayne Kamin-Oncea-Imagn Images

“One of the best hitters in baseball – last three years, batting titles with three different teams.” That’s the first thing viewers heard about Luis Arraez this postseason, a quote from the bottom of the first inning of the Padres-Braves Wild Card series. Arraez singled and promptly scored on a Fernando Tatis Jr. home run. It was just how you’d draw it up, and San Diego won a 4-0 laugher. That’s the promise of Arraez – a near-automatic baserunner completely immune to strikeout pitching.

“He’s a tough dude to face… He could set the tone just like Ohtani could set the tone for their respective clubs.” That one comes from the last game Arraez played this postseason, as he was mired in a deep slump. After that first single, he went 2-for-8 with two more singles the rest of the Atlanta series. Then he went a desultory 4-for-22 (all singles) in the NLDS against Dodgers. He fulfilled plenty of the Arraez-ian promise we expect – just one strikeout in 31 plate appearances – but he simply couldn’t buy a hit.

It’s hard to learn much from a down series like that. Obviously, Arraez wasn’t contributing to the Padres offense – no one contributes when they post a 27 wRC+. But hidden in that statement is an unstated counterfactual: When Arraez goes, it is implied, the Padres go. His single-hitting prowess is the straw that stirs the drink for a fantastic offense that ranked eighth in the majors in runs scored this year despite playing in one of the toughest offensive environments out there.

There’s just one problem with that statement: It’s not true. Arraez didn’t stir the drink for the Padres this year, even as he cruised to his third straight batting title. That sounds crazy, but it’s true. There’s just something about that shiny batting average that messes with our ability to evaluate players.

What’s the point of hitting in baseball? It’s to score runs, obviously. There’s a wonderful statistic, RE24, that measures this directly. RE24 is quite simple. It takes the run expectancy of an inning before each plate appearance and compares it to the run expectancy afterward, with the difference credited or debited to the hitter. It’s context-dependent, which is clearly important when you’re talking about scoring runs. Men on second and third with two outs? A single is way better than a walk, and RE24 tells you that: A two-RBI single counts for 1.63 runs above average in that situation, while a walk counts for 0.22 runs. Bases empty to lead off the inning? A walk and a single are the same, 0.4 runs.

Batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, even OPS+ and wRC+ — none of them really capture this. RE24 measures it quite well. It’s not perfect, of course. It doesn’t take team composition into account, so getting on base in front of Juan Soto and Aaron Judge is undervalued. That’s a mark in Arraez’s favor, for the record — his team has some really good hitters batting after him, so getting on base is worth a hair more than a league average measure would suggest. RE24 is also extremely noisy, because batters have little control over the situations they’re put in, so plenty of what we’re measuring is context rather than talent. But if you’re looking for hitters who helped their teams score more runs — not theoretical runs or “in the long run this skill set is preferred” runs, but actual runs — it’s a great metric. It even gives a bonus for outs that let runners advance, the cherished “productive out,” while subtracting points for hitting into double plays.

So who was the best hitter in baseball by RE24 this year? That would be Judge, and by a wide margin. He added a whopping 95.7 runs of value in 2024. Shohei Ohtani finished second with 79.6 runs, while Soto was third with 69; Tatis leads for playoff RE24. If you were explaining baseball to someone who had never heard of it before and had no concept of any statistics at all, you’d use something like this to point out who the best offensive players are. It’s simple: They’re the ones who help their teams score the most runs.

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The leaders of this list absolutely pass the intuition test. Watch their games, and you’ll sense how much they matter. They’re constantly either amping up the pressure or cashing in runners on base. They’re the highest-stress plate appearances for opponents. No one is getting a soda during their at-bat because the game might turn on what happens during it.

You can ascend to the top of this leaderboard in more ways than one. Jurickson Profar features highly on the chart without being a fearsome home run hitter; he gets on base frequently and also sends runners on the basepaths home with a boatful of singles and doubles. Jackson Chourio, Mookie Betts, and Jarren Duran are in the top 25. Power hitters, strike zone wizards, and doubles merchants all get their due.

Arraez’s RE24 clocked in at negative 3.34 this year. Now, that’s not as bad as it sounds. We calculate RE24 based on last year’s run scoring environment and true it up at year’s end (we update it after the conclusion of every season in our normal end-of-year updates). There were roughly 900 fewer runs scored this year than last, and league-wide RE24 checked in at -946 – this will balance out (we also have some extra-inning adjustments to make). You can assign each plate appearance a slight positive adjustment to make up for that and recenter it around zero. That would add 3.5 runs to Arraez’s total – and make him almost exactly average.

Even wRC+, which has a lower opinion of Arraez than the batting average apologists singing his praises, thought of him as above average this year. “A hit is better than a walk” is one of the central arguments that those folks make in advancing batting average over more holistic measures of offensive production. There’s a disconnect here somewhere.

The thing is that Arraez, like all hitters, bats with the bases empty a good bit of the time. We can compare how Arraez does in those situations to the average hitter quite easily. The important numbers are on-base percentage (because here, a walk truly is as good as a single) and extra bases per plate appearance. With no runners to advance, it only matters where the batter ends up.

In these situations, Arraez acquits himself well when it comes to reaching base. He posted a .328 OBP with the bases empty, meaningfully better than the league mark of .302. What does that mean in terms of run expectancy? I wanted a more precise answer than a blanket adjustment, so I created my own run expectancy table using data from every regular season game this year (excluding the ninth inning and extra innings, where run scoring gets abbreviated thanks to walk-offs). Here’s that matrix, just for posterity’s sake:

Run Expectancy, 2024
Bases/Outs 0 1 2
— .491 .265 .096
1– .890 .533 .228
12- 1.487 .930 .447
123 2.324 1.612 .821
1-3 1.910 1.224 .514
-2- 1.125 .689 .346
-23 2.031 1.408 .601
–3 1.403 .960 .356

With that in hand, I plugged in the numbers, and shockingly, Arraez’s on-base skill doesn’t make him a valuable hitter with no one on base. That’s because Arraez is only ever getting you first base, more or less, and that’s just not as valuable as you’d think. With no one out, you could get on base at a .360 clip with no extra-base hits whatsoever and be value-neutral. I got that number by comparing the difference between what you gain by putting a runner on first with no one out (.399 runs) and what you lose by going from no outs to one out with the bases empty (-.226 runs).

That breakeven on-base percentage gets higher as the outs tick up, naturally – a runner on first gets less valuable as the likelihood of driving him in before the inning ends goes down. It’s .387 with one out and .421 with two outs. If you’re just going to first, you have to do it a lot to make the math work. We all know this implicitly; when your team’s pitcher walks someone with no one out, it feels like a disaster. When they walk someone with two out, it’s a minor misstep.

Those OBPs are really hard to attain. But run expectancy sums up to zero by default. How can that be the case? It’s because you’re allowed to get extra bases too. Doubles, triples, and homers add far more to run expectancy than singles. Across the league, roughly 25% of on-base events (walks, HBPs, and hits) produce extra bases. Arraez is down at 17% – and as a result, despite a .328 OBP with the bases empty, he’s cost the Padres 2.7 runs with the bases empty this year. Now, it’s probably slightly less than that, because the guys after him are pretty good at hitting home runs, and those will drive him in from first just as surely as they will from second. But among Padres with 200 or more plate appearances this year, Arraez was eighth in runs per plate appearance, even leading off and batting in front of the power hitters. If his job is just to score a ton of runs, it’s fair to say that he didn’t knock it out of the park this year.

Another way of thinking about this puzzle? We know that Arraez was a slightly above-average hitter by wRC+ this year. That statistic, and others like it, treat a single as better than a walk, as of course they should. They’re holistic measures of context-neutral production, and there are plenty of spots where a walk isn’t as good as a single. But with the bases empty, there’s no difference. Arraez is getting over-valued in those specific situations. The constants in wRC+ will tell you that on average, five walks and four singles (plus an out) provide equal value. But that’s on average, not with the bases empty – there five equals five.

There’s a further issue at play here. One of the reasons people extol Arraez’s skill set is that he puts the ball in play. You can’t advance a runner with a strikeout – or you can, but it’s much less likely than doing so with a ball in play. But with the bases empty, that advantage is completely gone. There are no runners to advance. You either reach base or you don’t.

So let’s accept that Arraez isn’t helping his team in this situation. Unfortunately, he’s batting with the bases empty far more frequently than your average hitter. Two thirds of his plate appearances came with the bases empty, as compared to 57% for all batters. That’s exclusively a function of batting him leadoff – his bases empty plate appearance rate is dead average for leadoff hitters.

To his credit, Arraez’s singles do carry extra weight in some obvious situations: runners in scoring position with a base open. The reason singles are better than walks is because they can advance runners already on base. Arraez was awesome in these situations in 2024. I count 84 of them (first and third, second and third, just second, just third) in his game logs, and he hit a bonkers .434/.476/.487 in those plate appearances. Yeah, that’ll do, to the tune of 9.36 runs above average. Juicy!

But we’re doing some cherry picking there by slicing things up into small samples. Arraez was much worse with either a runner on first, first and second, or with the bases loaded. He hit .316/.321/.404, which doesn’t sound awful, but OBP and slug are the relevant numbers when there’s a runner on first. That’s because a walk does plenty of work on the runner advancement front, while extra-base hits can set the merry-go-round going and break the station-to-station game wide open. But Arraez didn’t excel at getting on base (his OBP was only five points above league average with runners on) or hitting for power (his slug was 20 points below average) in those moments. He also got unlucky; he hit .250 with no walks when I add a “two out” filter to the above, and keeping the inning going is the key part of batting with two outs. In all, he lost 9.2 runs here.

A lot of that comes out in the wash, as you might expect when I’m arbitrarily separating base/out states. With runners on base and two outs overall, as compared to separated into base open/base not open subcategories, Arraez batted .326/.360/.431 and had a positive run value. This feels like noise to me – I don’t think there’s any true talent reason for Arraez to struggle with two outs in some runners-on situations and excel in others.

Here’s another way of putting it: In total, Arraez was a better-than-average hitter with runners on base. He happened to get unlucky in terms of when he scattered those hits; he hit .311/.333/.333 with two runners on (48 PA), and .154/.214/.154 with the bases loaded (14 PA). Meanwhile, he hit .390/.407/.487 with only one runner on (162 PA). Even those out, and we’d be looking at a positive run value, around four runs if I force the same batting line in every situation. His gains here don’t just come from his singles – they also come from him putting the ball in play, where the extra advancements he creates outnumber the double plays he hits into.

But Arraez bats with runners on base less than the average hitter. He bats with the bases empty far more than the average hitter. And those singles just don’t help as much as you think. Extra-base hits are the true run-scoring currency. Singles only sometimes produce more advancement than walks, and they almost never advance the runner past first. Doubles and up always do both.

(As an aside, this is an argument for why he should bat third, with some runners to drive in with all those singles. People should appreciate him for his unprecedented contact skills in an era of strikeouts and homers. But somehow, because he keeps winning batting titles, he’s typecast as an elite leadoff hitter, and I just can’t wrap my head around it.)

In past years, Arraez has chipped in his fair share of extra-base hits thanks to some line drive doubles in the gap. But this year, he batted 55 more times than he did last year and accumulated four fewer extra-base hits. He batted 69 more times than he did in 2022 and had one fewer extra-base hit. The only year his rate of extra bases per plate appearance has been only lower was in 2021, his worst offensive season. It’s hard to perceive a power outage in a singles hitter, but Arraez had one this year, and it absolutely affected his overall production.

This would be glaringly obvious if you only looked at holistic measures of offensive production. Arraez’s wRC+ is down sharply, from a 130 mark in 2022 and 2023 to 109 this season. His OPS+ fell from 128 to 106. His wOBA, xwOBA, DRC+, batting average, on-base percentage, and slugging percentage all pointed one way. It’s pretty clear that he was a meaningfully worse hitter this year than in years past. He got on base 22% more than average and slugged 13% above average in 2023; this year, he got on base a mere 10% more than average and slugged 3% below average.

Batting average sticks in our head because it’s one of the first baseball statistics we learn. But in the same way that barrel rate and maximum exit velocity don’t paint a perfect picture of value, batting average is missing tons of useful inputs. It’s often correlated – Ted Williams and Barry Bonds hit for average because they hit for everything – but it’s just a simple statistical marker, and those can be misleading without the proper context.

“This guy is a three-time batting champion” is undoubtedly true. But it’s also true that this version of Arraez wasn’t a difference maker for San Diego. Twelve different Padres hitters produced more RE24 than Arraez. It’s a real shame. I appreciate Arraez as a player. He’s a complete anachronism, and when he’s at peak form, he’s a valuable hitter. But because he happens to have a high batting average, people who claim they’re “anti-statistics” and “old school” think he’s a star. A high batting average doesn’t make you a star any more than a high barrel rate does. They’re both good. I’d prefer either to the opposite. But neither is some kind of guaranteed marker of success.

I assume that the people who only care about batting average won’t find this position very compelling. They’re probably beyond convincing at this point. But I hope that I’m wrong, because I really do believe in my argument. When I trot out whomps per whiff or some kind of barrel-rate leaderboard, I’m not trying to say that these guys are all necessarily stars. I’m merely pointing out a component of good hitting, and saying that these players are good at it.

Batting average is like that too! It measures exactly what it says it measures. Using it as an all-purpose offensive statistic is missing the point. If you’re trying to understand why, you don’t have to look further than Luis Arraez, the 2024 National League batting champion – and a miscast leadoff hitter who cost his team 2.6 runs relative to average at the plate this year, by far the worst full season of his career.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

111 Comments
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BobMember since 2016
1 year ago

It would help a lot if baseball writers would stop calling the batting average leader the “batting champion”. There are so many other stats which are far more accurate in deciding who the real batting champion is. And it would help if baseball websites would stop making batting average their default setting for sorting batting leaders.
Using batting average as a tool to rate batters is archaic. It needs to stop.
And teams that trade for and pay multi millions to players like Arraez are just plain dumb.

baycommuterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob

Archaic? You mean you don’t care whether Cobb or Lajoie won the 1910 Chalmers?

Glengarry Glenn Braggs
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob

I agree that the phrase “batting champion” is archaic, but I don’t agree that it would “help a lot” if writers would stop using it. Anyone who follows baseball knows “batting champion” = “batting [average] champion.” Like, is there someone out there who reads that phrase and reflexively thinks, “why, the batting champion must be the best at batting!”

jackofonetrade
1 year ago

The answer to your question is “people who casually follow baseball,” and there are a lot of those tuning in right now.

When my wife discovered that Shohei had barely missed out on the “Batting Title,” she was confused how that could happen. But if you call it the “Batting Average Title,” that makes way more sense.

And, man, of course there are people who are going to assume the “batting champion “ is going to be the best at batting.

jakehelsMember since 2023
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob

There’s no need to change the definition of batting champion just because batting average isn’t a good indicator of who is the best hitter.

And Arraez was a 3 WAR player with a 130 wRC+ in ‘22 and ‘23, hard to argue that teams are dumb for wanting him.

His skillset is overrated by traditionalists and casuals, but he’s a useful player despite his defensive shortcomings. He just shouldn’t be hitting at the top of the order vs LHP and isn’t some super dangerous bat come October.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jakehels

Nobody’s said he isn’t a useful player. The article’s saying a specific narrative about him is wrong. He’d probably be better off not batting leadoff.

jakehelsMember since 2023
1 year ago
Reply to  slamcactus

I know what the article is saying, I’ve been in favor of moving him down in the lineup all year. Since he stopped walking, his OBP doesn’t cut it. I was responding to the last line of the comment saying he’s not worth trading for or paying multi millions. That’s the assessment of a useless player.

casey jMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  jakehels

Id argue he is dangerous. If he hits .500 next playoff, the tune will change. Its just that when a singles hitter isn’t hitting them, he isn’t doing anything… but when he’s hot, he is. So he remains dangerous,

booondMember since 2019
1 year ago

He was also hurt for two months with a bad thumb.

Roman AjzenMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

A lot of the article essentially boils down to “Arraez had a bad 2024 but national media didn’t notice it because he hit >.300”. If you attribute the drop in production from 2022/2023 to the thumb injury (which makes sense to me), then the question about his lineup position is why the Padres didn’t adjust based on his injury, which is completely fair.

jakehelsMember since 2023
1 year ago
Reply to  Roman Ajzen

The fact Shildt hit him leadoff vs LHP at all was baffling, and it only got worse post-injury. I try not to complain about lineup order too much, but when your 9 hitter is a better bat than your leadoff hitter, something is very wrong. If he wanted to keep Profar at 3 to have a switch hitter between Machado and Tatis, he still had other leadoff options in Bogaerts and Solano that would have been much better.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

That seems like a good explanation for why he had a down year! But not necessarily an argument against the idea that he had a down year.

booondMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Agree.

The real question is that in a good year – 2023, for instance – what is his true value. Is he better off hitting first, third, fifth, seventh? He doesn’t walk anymore so his batting average is his obp. He has very limited power. He isn’t a great runner though he started to steal bases later in the year. His skill is that he puts the ball in play at a far higher percentage than anyone else. How do you squeeze the most value out of that skill? It isn’t batting him first.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

Even so, in a normal year when he hits over .330, his OBP is still going to be over .350, which along with the lack of power still makes him a really good leadoff hitter, at least against RHP.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

Not sure it matters why he had a down year when the conversation’s primarily about people not realizing he had a down year because of the shiny batting average.

Last edited 1 year ago by slamcactus
jrp1918
1 year ago

I agree that he is miscast as a leadoff hitter and that the old school types extremely overate him.

But he’s definitely a useful player. He gets on base at an above average, though obviously not elite clip. I think his lack of k’s do add a dimension to an offense.

The real thing holding him back, aside from a lack of power, is a lack of defense and speed. Something you’d think the “old school” types who love batting average would notice.

MikeSMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jrp1918

I think there is value to having different types of hitters in a lineup as well. I don’t have any statistical proof and I’d rather have power hitters over singles hitters, but a unique guy like Arraez makes them have to stop and think about how to defend him.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  jrp1918

Even with his thumb injury this year dragging down his career rate numbers, his career OBP is .372. How is that not elite?

Last edited 1 year ago by compucles
BeatembucsMember since 2021
1 year ago

Regarding moving him down in the order, it was interesting to see the Mets use this strategy with Iglesias batting 5th in a few of the playoff games. Upon seeing him there the gut reaction was he doesn’t belong in the middle of the order, but a high batting average singles guy hitting in the guys who get walks and extra base hits does make sense.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Beatembucs

Yeah, Arraez at 5th or 6th would seem to be the perfect spot…in no small part because he’s also slow.

Profar
Merrill
Tatis
Machado
Arraez/Bogaerts
Bogaerts/Arraez
Cronenworth
Higashioka
Kim (OBP+Wheels as second leadoff)

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Arraez isn’t a bad leadoff hitter, since he gets on base at .345 or whatever. Profar would have been better, although that’s more because he got on base at an even higher rate.

The more interesting comparison is between someone like Arraez and Jonathan India, or Nathaniel Lowe, or Justin Turner. Although they’re not on the same team.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Oh, for sure – it’s just that if you’re trying to maximize runs scored, you’d rather have a .280/.350 guy batting leadoff than a .320/.350 guy.

This article was super interesting for me, because I’ve actually run the numbers on K% vs. RE24-wRAA…but didn’t control for runners on base/position in the batting order!

I’ll have to take a look, haha!

compucles
1 year ago

If everything else was equal, sure, but Profar hits for too much power to be a good leadoff hitter. Profar was the better option in 2024 with a much higher OBP, but Arraez usually hits for a higher OBP than him, anyway.

To maximize runs scored, you want a high OBP but low power guy (if you have one) at leadoff so that you aren’t partially wasting too many homers and doubles that are being hit with nobody on base.

Speed is then a nice bones but only a secondary consideration.

Last edited 1 year ago by compucles
casey jMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  compucles

Does Otani hit too many homers to be a good leadoff hitter? I’d argue no, and not even relative to hitting 3 or 4. Id argue he is best there maybe.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  casey j

I’d rather Ohtani bat with runners on but if lead off is one of the 3 most important slots it wouldn’t help much if Freeman or Betts switched with him

Western Metal SupplyMember since 2021
1 year ago

Profar
Tatis
Machado
Merrill
Bogaerts
Higashioka
Arraez
Cronenworth
Kim

Would have been nice.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago

I’d switch Machado and Merrill, and Arraez and Higashioka but otherwise sure.

jhulgz
1 year ago

I think this is where looking at individual player stats in a silo can cloud our perceptions.
How many more pitches does he make the pitcher throw because of his contact skills? Does that help the rest of the lineup get more looks at the pitcher? How much additional stress does he induce by being such a tough AB every time he’s up there? Hard to quantify but clearly it worked well for the Padres over a large sample

I agree he probably shouldn’t lead off, but I think there’s some difficult-to-quantify value that he provides the rest of the batting order

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  jhulgz

Ironically, I was almost getting ready to post the opposite question- Does his LACK of pitches per AB make him LESS valauble? If he’s not getting on-base at a higher clip, he’s not creating more AB’s. & he rarely walks & rarely K’s.

I had to go to BB-REF to find it, but,he was at 3.60 per AB, which put him at 117th out of 131 minimum PA qualifiers in MLB. (Isaac Paredes was the leader at 4.43 per PA//Juan Soto, who would have been my guess as the most PA per AB was 19th at 4.15).

He’s putting the ball in play, which is good, but, he’s NOT extending AB’s, creating those 10 pitch PA’s that wear a pitcher down, give other players add’l looks, etc. Would be interesting to see a study of what that actually means/does?

Lou BrownMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

On an individual basis, seeing a lot of pitches doesn’t do a heck of a lot for the rest of the lineup. But a team approach to being patient absolutely wears pitchers down. Look at the Red Sox teams of the late 2000’s and early 2010’s who consistently had were among the lowest Swing% in the league, and getting through it was an absolute chore for a pitcher even if they weren’t allowing runs.

TalfredMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  jhulgz

MLB hitters faced 3.88 pitches per plate appearance in 2024. Arraez saw 3.60 pitches per plate appearance, placing him at 117th out of 131 qualified batters. Why would his at bats be unusually stressful for a pitcher?

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Talfred

Well they saw that shiny batting average and pooped their pants, presumably

Lou BrownMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  jhulgz

It’s not a tough AB if he’s actually an easy out due to the fact that there’s no risk of him hitting for extra bases.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

It may not be a tough AB, but how does a lack of power equate to being an “easy out”?

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jhulgz

How does seeing more pitches help the lineup get more looks at a pitcher?

This narrative made more sense in the 80s and earlier when relievers were just guys who weren’t good enough to start and shut-down power relievers with 91mph wipeout sliders weren’t a thing.

Now “wearing the starter down” is only really an advantage when you consider the long-game and keeping bullpens from getting rested, because most teams have multiple guys who can get through the game as effectively on a per-inning basis as the starter.

Overall, the league hit better against starters than against relievers this year (.721 OPS against starters, .697 against relievers).

MJA
1 year ago

I agree the batting average and batting titles are doing a lot of heavy lifting, but I think Arraez is also being used as a cudgel in the Culture War that is baseball analytics.

There is a large contingent of fans that blame analytics for various issues in the game. For them, Arraez is “Proof” that you don’t have to go by the analytics. Just make tons of contact and stop selling out for power/striking out. Easy Peasy.

If the truth is that 1) Arraez is a very unique player that can’t easily be replicated 2) This type of player tends to have a ceiling and has difficulty maintaining those skills over a long career in the modern game, then anti-analytics “Gotcha!” is now gone and people would have to accept they are wrong.

Instead we have to play pretend.

EstebanMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  MJA

Right, he has top tier (among major leaguers) bat control skills, which is why he can be a valuable hitter despite his lack of power. Steven Kwan is similar, but actually better version of this, but very few players can be successful with this approach because they don’t have the same bat control

RedsManRickMember since 2020
1 year ago

Great article.

One quibble, if you can call it that. I think the language of “he’s cost the Padres 2.7 runs…” to describe below average performance is part of what turns off both players and the non-analytically minded.

It basically comes down to two notions:

1) Average is not intuitive as a zero point.

All of the traditional stats we use are true zero baseline (any production is positive) and we have built intuitive understandings of the related distributions. A .320 batting average is great and a .200 avg is very poor. But what would a -.030 average mean? 30 HRs is great and 6 HRs is poor. But -7 HRs? What? Values presented as positive or negative variances from league average don’t fit these intuitions, creating suspicion among the uninitiated.

2) Average is valuable.

An average team, by talent, can make the playoffs with a bit of luck. And an average batter is likely one of your team’s best. In a given year, only 3-4 of a team’s batters are above average (~100 qualified hitters with a wRC+ >105). The notion your team’s middle of the order bat who hit 26 HR and drove in 86 runs was not “adding runs” to his offense seems nonsensical. That parenthetical “above average”, when it’s actually included (and it’s often not), simply doesn’t resonate emotionally. It doesn’t pass a sniff test linguistically. Many people just cannot grok the description of below average as “costing your team runs”.

As an example, a guy who “adds” zero runs on offense or defense and plays everyday is a 2 WAR player. Even accepting that replacement level can suffer from a similar perception problem, at least it’s shifted out of the range where solid contribution can be described as a negative.

I get that we can’t use a true zero baseline for run production because zero run prevention would be infinite runs allowed. The average as baseline approach is the correct one. But I think we still need to find ways to bridge the gap between the true zero baseline expectation created by 120+ years of stats and the zero-as-average baseline that produces better insights.

And I think you actually hit on the way to do it — start using RE24 in broadcasts. It wouldn’t directly communicate the core point of his article in terms of the comparatively low value of bases empty singles. But I think it’s easy to communicate and understand for the average fan and builds a habit of thinking in terms of 0 as an average baseline. And, importantly, it would help with a second barrier — the standardization of production measurement into runs.

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  RedsManRick

Yeah, you can’t say a player is actually costing runs unless their WAR is below zero, not below average!

However, even if you use the correct terminology, I disagree that average should be the baseline. Even most solid playoff contenders can’t manage to field an average or better starter at every single position, and it’s especially difficult to do with all 5 pitchers in the starting rotation, and this is even before considering potential injuries. There would also then be no way to compare the quality of a team’s bench.

Last edited 1 year ago by compucles
lukeMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  compucles

You can say they are costing runs at the plate. They may make them up in other ways and contribute positive war.

g4Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  luke

I think the point being made here is that he’s not costing them runs at the plate compared to a replacement level bat, only as compared to an average bat. And since average bats aren’t easy to find, Arraez having a below-average yet above-replacement offensive stat line should not be framed as “costing his team runs,” in that sense, but rather as producing fewer runs than “good” hitters produce.

In any case, the word genie can’t be put back in the bottle. Besides, I don’t feel Ben is beholden to softening his critique of Arraez just to avoid turning off a hypothetical segment of readers. Personally I like Arraez and am glad the game still has room for a player of his ilk. But I can still appreciate this article’s savvy use of RE24 and agree with the consensus that batting him leadoff fails to maximize his potential value.

dsalmansonMember since 2019
1 year ago

Are the sample sizes big enough to see correlations on how hitters who hit behind him performed when he was in the line up and not in the line up? We know San Diego’s offense took off after the trade, but is there a way to more concretely measure his impact (both in SD and and at previous stops).

The former players on MLB radio recently talked a lot about his intangibles that I didn’t exactly follow because I was driving in traffic. How many pitches does he see in an at bat compared to major league average, might be one stat that has carry over to the hitters behind him (and did seeing him increase their pitches and so on). I doubt we’d be able to find causation but we (and by that I mean someone better at doing statistics than I) could certainly try to identify those correlations so that we could then discuss causations.

In other words, I don’t want to know what impact Arraez has as a hitter. I want to know what impact Arraez has on other hitters in the lineup around him and how far down the lineup does that extend?

lukeMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  dsalmanson

Intuitively, the radio folk assume arraez sees more pitches. But he actually doesn’t. He was 117th of 131 qualifying batters in pitches per PA. Part of his skill is bad ball hitting and he gets most of his at bats over quickly.

dsalmansonMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  luke

I was just picking an example stat. I wasn’t paying close enough attention to the examples that Eduardo Perez used. I think some of the examples were even less measurable (observing the way he does batting practice. I think he has an unusual batting practice routine). But there ought to be a way to at least see if there are correlations between Arraez arriving somewhere and the rest of the team’s hitting improving.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

As far as I can tell the big difference between this year and last year (and 2022, and 2019) is that he stopped hitting homers. A six homer difference doesn’t seem like a big deal, but in the years where Arraez has been good he’s been more like a .110 ISO guy and in his down years he’s more like a .080 ISO guy.

It is so hard to be an elite hitter when you don’t hit homers.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, I think there’s often a lack of understanding of the value of homers at the extremes. Like, if you are a one-dimensional slugger, the difference between hitting 33 homers and 41 homers can be huge. It can be the difference in whether you’re good enough to play on a competitive team. But you’ll see some aging slugger who used to actually hit homers at an elite rate slide down to the ~30 range and still seem to be highly regarded (example – Ryan Howard in 2010 and 2011, when he barely hit 30 HR, was a 1.2 WAR player, and finished 10th in the MVP voting both years).

The same applies on the lower end. Many look at someone hitting 12-15 homers as the same as hitting 5-8 homers, as if they both just “don’t hit homers,” but that difference matters, and it matters a lot!

compucles
1 year ago
Reply to  TKDC

Perhaps, but you need a better example.

Howard’s wRC+ didn’t fall that much in those years and was actually higher compared to 2008 when he hit 48 home runs. It was mostly because he got dinged a lot of value for his poor baserunning and defense.

Last edited 1 year ago by compucles
TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
1 year ago
Reply to  compucles

This is a bit of a nitpick. Howard was actually a really good player from 2006-2009, averaging about 50 homers and 3.5 WAR, and fell off in 2010-2011, before getting hurt and cratering afterwards. A lot of 2008 being a little down can be explained with BABIP luck.

I’m sure there’s a better example, but I think this one works just fine.

g4Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  TKDC

Rhys Hoskins’ 26-homer season is a prime example. OPS+ of 98. Bad defense, slow baserunning (11 GIDP), high K’s, few doubles.

But add 6 homers and I cease wincing.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  g4

I would be curious to know–if someone hit six more homers over 600ish PAs–how much it would raise their wRC+. This obviously depends a lot on the stadium. Six homers while playing in Miami or San Diego is going to be worth a lot more than six homers playing in Philadelphia or Yankee Stadium.

mattMember since 2023
1 year ago

I don’t quite get the reason for the article. The people that look at fangraphs can easily see he’s quite overrated. Old geezers like smoltz saying dumb things won’t be looking at this article

Western Metal SupplyMember since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  matt

I think he’s perfectly “rated” none of his numbers jump off the page unless you are counting batting titles…

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  matt

I think we all have friends and family who enjoy the game on a more casual level. They hear and repeat these ideas and so we hear them both from the media and our friends.

Although the general thrust of this article isn’t likely shock any Fangraphs readers, it’s an interesting topic to delve into for a couple reasons. First, it’s interesting to see a detailed breakdown of why he’s not as valuable as people think. Second, it’s always good to check your assumptions and reexamine broadly accepted conclusions to see if some important factor has been missed or if circumstances have changed.

compucles
1 year ago

EDIT: Sorry, I meant this to be a reply to another comment.

Last edited 1 year ago by compucles
slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago

One quibble: while many of the reasons it’s better are removed (namely, advancing runners) a single *is* marginally better than a walk even with the bases empty. Every single makes the defense do something to keep it a single. Sometimes those things don’t happen and the defense commits an error, so a non-zero percentage of even bases-empty PAs that are scored singles end up with the runner on 2B or 3B, while that never happens with walks.

I’m not a batting average defender by any means but felt worth pointing out the difference.

Lee TrocinskiMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  slamcactus

With bases empty, no outs this year, I have the average RE24 of a single at 0.3814, while a walk is 0.3832. A runner can advance on a single, but they can also be thrown out trying to stretch it into a double, which appears to be the bigger effect.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Lee Trocinski

Does that hold true for bases empty across all situations? Not sure why “no outs” matters.

Lee TrocinskiMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  slamcactus

With 1 out, it’s 0.256 for singles and 0.258 for walks. With 2 outs, it’s 0.1246 for singles and 0.126 for walks.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Lee Trocinski

That’s fascinating, thanks for doing the work. I wonder (but am not asking you to research) whether the slight edge to walks holds up consistently over time.

Either way, I guess a more accurate quibble would be that with the bases empty singles aren’t *exactly* the same as walks (and if this year is an indication, might even be worse).

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Lee Trocinski

They could be thrown out but speed and wise baserunning are a skill as well. I think that value varies from player to player.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

That’s getting a bit too contextual for my tastes. It’s also true that singles’ edge over walks with runners on base depends on who those runners are. A single is going to advance the runner multiple bases more often if that runner’s Corbin Carroll than if it’s Ty France.

KyleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Lee Trocinski

You’re talking about two different things. You’re talking about post-hoc evaluation of what runs singles will lead to after they happen (after it’s been determined it’s a single). OP was referring to what happens during a play, I think?

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Kyle

No, I think it’s fair, and evidently it’s captured by RE24.

The point is 100% of bases-empty walks end with a runner on 1st and no additional outs. Some small percentage of singles end with a runner on 2nd or 3rd, and some percentage of singles actually result in outs. A single creates creates the scenario where those other events become possible, while a walk doesn’t.

It’s fascinating to me that on balance those outcomes appear to be worse though.

Last edited 1 year ago by slamcactus
tbwhite67Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  slamcactus

I don’t think they are worse, I think RE24 doesn’t capture them the way you think it does. Doesn’t it just look at the end state when the play if complete? With bases empty if a batter lines one to RF and gets thrown out trying to stretch it into a double, it’s no different than if he had popped up to an IF. If the batter succeeds in stretching it into a double, then it’s a double, not a single. There is no world where you get partial credit for what you did prior to a baserunning blunder.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  tbwhite67

It’s always going to be a bit of a blunt tool when you’re categorizing each event but I think it’s decently captured. Some bases-empty singles can functionally be the same as doubles, some can functionally be the same as outs. When the bases are empty it strikes me as totally appropriate to log the end event. If a guy stretches a single into a double he’s credited with a double, just the same as if it’d been a no-doubt double.

I don’t know enough about RE24 to know if single + error is appropriately coded as the ending baserunner situation but it’s interesting at a minimum.

Fun-Hating DorkMember since 2019
1 year ago

I think the biggest delta between perception and reality when it comes to Arraez is that he is really good at a skill that is very rare in the modern game: hitter strikeout avoidance. This makes him interesting. It makes him higher-profile. What makes the delta larger is the overvaluation of strikeout avoidance in of itself as a goal.

darren
1 year ago

I wonder how rare the skill actually is. I don’t doubt that Arraez is one of, if not the, best at it. But I imagine there are a lot of really good hitters who could have really low strikeout rates if they didn’t care about walks or power.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
1 year ago

There was an article here, at some point in the season, that what as analysis of the newly released bat speed and squared-up data. Among other things it was noted how some hitters change up their stroke with 2 strikes and swing slower to achieve more contact…at the cost of power. Ararawz lives there, but absolutely other guys could if they wanted to

darren
1 year ago

The myth of Luis Arraez can be traced directly to the myth of Tony Gwynn. A large swath of fans love to wax poetic about the Gwynn being the best “pure” hitter they’ve ever seen, even one of the best in history. “Pure” is never defined, of course, but it is apparently some combination of hitting for a high average, rarely striking out, and not letting power or walks get in the way of your greatness. Get out of the way, Wade Boggs, Rod Carew, Albert Pujols, et al., there’s a “pure” hitter coming through!

Gwynn (a deserving Hall of Famer) is thus elevated to Inner Circle, GOAT-level status. I don’t think Arraez will receive that treatment, but I’ve already heard Harold Reynolds (I know) say that he’s on track for the Hall.

achidesterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I agree with you re: Gwynn, it seems like Gwynn and Maddux have become the “fun fact”/nostalgia leaders over the last 3-5 years or so because of this proto-fetishization of the “right way” to play the game.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  achidester

The fun facts are fun! But as you note, it somehow becomes more than that. I always wonder how such fans square Gwynn being a poorly conditioned and poor outfielder in the second half of his career with playing the game the right way.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  achidester

With you on Gwynn but comparing him to Maddux is a bit of a stretch.

Gwynn’s ranked 89th in career WAR among position players. Maddux ranks 3rd among pitchers, behind only Roger Clemens and Cy Young.

One absolutely belongs in the inner-est of innermost circles when compared to his peers over the game’s long history. The other doesn’t.

Last edited 1 year ago by slamcactus
The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
1 year ago
Reply to  achidester

Maddux?! He won 355 games throwing 80 pitch complete games during the steroid era. He doesn’t belong in your comment.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Bill Madlock won four batting titles and didn’t sniff the hall in an era where everyone was Harold Reynolds. So Arraez would seemingly need to either/both win more batting titles or be a better player overall than Madlock to have any chance.

He doesn’t seem like the guy that will be able to age gracefully, as soon as his hit tool slips he’s not really a starting caliber player.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  TKDC

Who can be certain what the heck Reynolds is talking about, but Arraez has three batting titles through age 27, putting him ahead of Boggs, Gwynn, and Madlock. He’s tied with Carew. So maybe even back then things would be looking pretty good for him.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I think Rod Carew was always the gold standard for a “pure hitter.” And he was also kind of overrated. Mostly because he was extremely fun. Carew stole home a lot! My kind of guy.

Personally I was always a Wade Boggs partisan. He very likely is the best player out of him, Carew, and Gwynn. But I wonder about how his strengths matched up with the weird Fenway dimensions, which might have boosted his average.

Funny enough, the player with the highest career AVG+ from 1969 to the present is Arraez, but a lot of that is because his decline phase hasn’t started dragging down his career numbers yet. #2 is Clemente, just ahead of both Carew and Gwynn, with Boggs at #5. But Clemente is never thought of as being a better hitter-for-average than Carew or Gwynn.

casey jMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Holy shite. I thought Id look it up, and Wade hit .369 .464 .527 in Fenway Park, in 3803 at bats. He hit .322 in Yankee Stadium as well, where he played for 5 years. Hell, he hit everywhere.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  casey j

Boggs sometimes get dinged for being a product of Fenway, but it was sort of the opposite. He came to the majors as slappy singles hitter and figured out how to use Fenway to his advantage (to say the least). When went to the Yankees, he quickly adjusted his approach to fit Yankee Stadium. His splits from his time in NY:

Boston Years (1982-1992)
Home: .369/.465/.525
Away: .307/.391/.400

New York Years (1993-1997)
Home: .336/.412/.431
Away: .291/.380/.382

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  casey j

People have forgotten how good Wade Boggs was in his first seven seasons or whatever it was. He played very good defense and got on base about 45% of the time. Between 1983 and 1989 he has the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 15th, and 16th best seasons for a position player by fWAR. The only year that he had that isn’t one of the 20 best seasons in that stretch of time was 1984…and he had a six-win season that year.

Depending on what you think of A-Rod (is he a shortstop? a third baseman? are the steroids disqualifying?) then Boggs is somewhere between the 2nd and 4th best 3B of all time.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s hard for me to see the argument that Carew was overrated. In my memory, Carew was considered an all-time great, a lock for the Hall of Fame, but nothing more than that. I don’t recall anyone saying he was a once in a lifetime talent on par with Ted Willams, Babe Ruth, or Ty Cobb.

And the advanced metrics have pretty much shown his reputation to be correct. He’s got 81.2 WAR–sixth all-time among 2b, and also ranks sixth in JAWS. Sounds about right.

Mitchell MooreMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

That was my thought – hard to see how a guy with a career 132 WRC+ is overrated. For the record though, he played 800-ish more games at 1B than 2B for his career.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Maybe I just ran with a bunch of people who thought Carew was better than that. I think his advanced stats tell the story pretty well but I knew people who put him more in the Joe Morgan / Rickey Henderson tier. I like Rod Carew a lot, but not that much.

casey jMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Gwynn had a higher slugging percentage than Boggs or Carew.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  casey j

Yes he did. For those guys, I was thinking more of the walks, but I could have been clearer.

John DiFool2
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Am I allowed at least the opportunity to mourn the virtual extinction of this kind of hitter? I think the game was more interesting when there were a variety of successful batting styles and not everyone was swinging from their heels for the fences.

In 1975 across both leagues I count the following singles hitters w/ averages above .300 and homers below 10:

Rose
Griffey Sr.
The aforementioned Madlock
Carew
Sanguillen
Von JoshuaCardenalBrock
[plus some guys like Brett and Claudell Washington who just barely cleared 10 HR]

2024:

Arráez
Even if I relax the requirements to .290 and 15, the only other guy in play is Kwan.
Heck only 7 guys even hit .300, period.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  John DiFool2

Hmmm. Yes, I will allow you to mourn that. Carry on.

slamcactusMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Agreed that the Gwynn/Carew/Boggs trio, while deserving HOFers, are occasionally overrated by a sub-set of fans who understand that HR and singles aren’t equal results but who aren’t interested in adding 2+2 and realizing that means BA’s not a great all-purpose stat for offense.

But, it’s probably also worth pointing out that Arraez hasn’t earned his comparison to that trio either. Those guys each had career wRC+/OPS+’s in the 131-132 range and each had multiple years of 140 or 150+, making them legitimately among the best hitters alive.

Arraez is in his prime (age-wise, at least) and his peak (130 wRC+ in 2022-2023) is worse than any of those guys’ final career line (including their decline phases).

They’re similar in that they’ve all won batting titles, but Arraez hasn’t hit his way into their tier yet (and chances are he never will).

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  slamcactus

I agree that he doesn’t belong with that trio on any level. My point was that the love of his game can be traced to the love of Gwynn.

On the subject of Gwynn/Carew/Boggs being overrated. I’ve only ever seen Gwynn being overrated by fans and media. Boggs, if anything, underrated–first and foremost because it would be almost impossible to overate him. He’s one of the five best third basemen of all time. Second, because for some reason, he is often viewed as a singles hitter with an empty batting average. I think it may be linked to the idea that he was selfish for not chasing pitches out of the zone to drive in runs. But I dunno.

JayMember since 2016
1 year ago

I think the bias partly comes from the fact that Balls In Play are chaotic, and they look chaotic. Chaos is dangerous, so we think lots of singles are dangerous. A walk doesn’t look dangerous unless the bases are loaded.

JustinPBGMember since 2018
1 year ago

“He added a whopping 95.7 runs of value in 2024. Shohei Ohtani finished second with 79.6 runs, while Soto was third with 69;”

We are underselling this – that 95.7 is, like a lot of his stats this year, the highest non-Bonds since Ted Williams.

casey jMember since 2019
1 year ago

Fair enough. You are right, and an excellent article. I liked how you looked at how a hitter’s offensive skills should be put into the best spot to make the whole thing work.

I can’t help but think that in a dream lineup, or San Diego’s, Arraez isn’t best deployed as 9-hole guy, or 7-8-or 9, where he really getting those hits when you aren’t expecting hits.. and getting your best hitter up again.

Last edited 1 year ago by casey j
Dominikk85Member since 2020
1 year ago

I think arraez will still get a bit better. It wasn’t the best year but he played half the year with a hurt thumb that he got surgery on right after the season.

The years before that he hit 8 and 10 homers so power was trending up. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has a career year next year hitting 350 with 15 homers.

Erick
1 year ago

I was trying to guess who his best comp would be on B-R. For career totals, it’s a lot of guys who played before WWII.

In his similar by age, I was guessing Rod Carew (especially given the 2B -> 1B shift) and Wade Boggs – turns out Boggs is #2 with Bill Madlock #1. Those are really solid comps obviously. I was really surprised Carew wasn’t top 10.

Wade turned it on randomly with 24 home runs in his age 29 season and stayed consistently above average until 34 (and even after that, he could fall out of bed and hit .300 – just saw the power dissipate).

Madlock was solidly above average until he was 33 (and even then, he was not bad; just not the .300 hitter of old). Definitely an underrated player.

Those guys aged well; I hope Luis can follow a similar path and recover from a down year.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Erick

Not the main point, but Boggs’s 24 HR came in 1987, which saw a jump in power across the league. Note that despite his 100 additional points of slugging that year, his Rbat total of 58 wasn’t much different from the surrounding years.)

I remember Boggs saying afterward that he felt he had figured out how to incorporate more power without sacrificing patience and batting average. That seemed very exciting, until 1988 when the league offense went back to normal and so did Boggs.

Joe WellsMember since 2017
1 year ago

FWIW, “old school” types had a name for this a long, long time ago: An empty average. We weren’t idiots before the internet was invented.

MichaelMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe Wells

I remember when they nicknamed Ken Oberkfell 4-0-2-0 for his empty batting average.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe Wells

Don’t listen to him! We were all stupid idiots who loved Harold Baines’s RBIs and Jack Morris pitching to the score!

Murph3Member since 2020
1 year ago

Here’s a legitimate question, though it may be a stupid one (so dont flame me. I am writing this at 2:30 in the am): Wouldn’t it be true that RE24 understates the value of leadoff hitters on a good team?

Why is Aaron Judge’s RE24 high? Well, he’s good. But also because he is batting with Juan Soto on base, so he gets credit for doing what he does both because he’s good and because he’s on a good team. You get bonus points for the batters in front of you being good.

But Arraez’s base state takes a hit because he’s batting behind the #9 hitters. So he does not get the benefit from the base state situation that Judge does. What’s Arraez’s value? Getting on base for someone else. He gets credit there for his own work. But he doesn’t get the extra credit that Judge does. He gets credit for creating only the run expectancy that the chart says that his hit creates in a league average situation. What does he do instead? He creates the base state that gives Tatis et al the chance to get their bonus credit.

In other words, I guess I’m saying that RE24 treats you in the actual team context of the people in front of you but as if the people behind you are perfectly average.

Am I right, or are these the ravings of an insomniac?

(And BTW, I agree Arraez is an averagish hitter with One Wierd Trick. So this is a general thought about the stat, not OMG Arraez is Him, as the kids say.)

Last edited 1 year ago by Murph3
Murph3Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Murph3

And I know Ben acknowledges the issue that Arraez is coming up with the bases empty and that it isn’t his fault. But I read Ben’s response to that as being “well, that just means he isn’t actually creating the runs.” And I think that undersells the run creation benefit to being the person who leads to extra runs if you are there to be potentially driven in by far-better-than-league-average hitters. Now I’m going to try to go back to sleep

Last edited 1 year ago by Murph3
Murph3Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Murph3

I lied. And Ben’s response to my response to Ben’s response seems to be “well, bat Arraez third and his RE24 goes up.” That may be true, if this is about maximizing Arraez’s personal run advancement in an RE24 sense. But then you move the other Padres around and someone else’s RE24 ox is getting gored by being the leadoff hitter who is treated as if everyone behind him is league average. It proves the point that RE24 only views context in one direction.

And one other response is Ben’s “well, Arraez didn’t actually score many runs this year.” To which the response is that it’s because Arraez had a down year. But that doesn’t address the overall point about RE24. Now, I’m just gonna admit that I’m not going to sleep, get up and go to the Waffle House.

Last edited 1 year ago by Murph3
KyleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Murph3

Although you are a sleep and waffle deprived lunatic, I agree. Not a fan of RE24 for this purpose frankly.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago

I look forward to the FG articles when 3,227 hit Luis Arraez is up for HoF vote

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

The Adam Dunn of slap hitters.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

This would be super funny but he only has 847 hits and he is 27. He only has two years where has gotten 200 hits, but he would need to hit that mark for 11 years to get 3,000 hits. I have zero faith in him staying healthy (and productive) that long.

ajake57Member since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Ooooh let’s imagine this! If Arraez were to maintain his average PAs (631), BB% (5.76%) and ISO (.0984) from the last 3 seasons for the next 11 years while also accumulating the 2,380 hits he needs to get to the hypothetical 3,227 his slash over that time would be .367/.405/.466. That’s pretty good!

ajake57Member since 2019
1 year ago

The title of this article makes me imagine Arraez as a Greek god, defending Olympus with a venerable wooden stick that smites any would-be passers by who are not worthy of entry into the hallowed halls of Zeus.

Marc KartmanMember since 2021
1 year ago

curious where stolen bases come into these calculations. Seems obvious that there is more value when someone like Brice Turing singles with 2 outs than when Arraez does the same thing because more times then not Turang is on second base after the next pitch and therefore has a much better chance to score.

markjay6
1 year ago

I just realized that Luis Arraez had a lower WAR this past season than Andy Pages.

Wow.

RoyalsFan#14321
1 year ago

I mean, he’s had a down year with the thumb, but the proceeding two years he was running a .384 OBP. Most teams would kill for that from any spot, let alone hitting in front of Tatis/Machado, even with the weak SLG.

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
1 year ago

“He could set the tone just like Ohtani could set the tone for their respective clubs.”

What ever broadcaster or writer that put this out should immediately be fired.

The Ghost of Johnny Dickshot
1 year ago

Hitting .300 with sub .400 SLG and not being a base stealer is not good. Sorry.