The Projections and You, Revisited

As always happens around this time of year, we’re arguing the utility and accuracy of WAR as a player-evaluation statistic and model. Every year, the argument gets a little smarter on both sides, but every year, there’s the same struggle over acceptance. I’m sure we’re not done talking about this, not with Dave Cameron included as a BBWAA voter for the Most Valuable Player award, but you might recall that, a few months ago, the argument then was about the utility of projections. More specifically, it was about projections and identifying breakouts and collapses. Again, it wasn’t a new argument, but sometimes it’s the repeating arguments that manage to push us all forward.

Around that time, in the middle of June, I published a post with 20 players and 20 polls. There were five offensive over-achievers, five offensive under-achievers, five pitching over-achievers, and five pitching under-achievers. In each poll, I asked the audience to select how they felt about the player’s projection going forward. Which possible collapses or breakouts were people buying? Which were they dismissing? I know the season’s not over yet, but I thought this could be a fine time to look back on the post and on what has happened since.

The most important point in this whole post: this isn’t a study, with far-reaching conclusions. From this, we’re not definitively learning anything about projections or human intuition. We’re essentially reviewing 20 small samples of data, and then seeing what that might mean, and I beg of you not to make more of this than I am. For me, this is just sating my own curiosity. Anyhow, let us proceed to the comprehensive table:

Player Projection Poll Performance Difference
Brian Dozier 0.317 64% looks low 0.321 1%
Michael Brantley 0.334 59% looks right 0.362 8%
Lonnie Chisenhall 0.342 79% looks right 0.286 -16%
Nelson Cruz 0.355 80% looks right 0.325 -8%
Victor Martinez 0.356 59% looks right 0.406 14%
Jedd Gyorko 0.304 76% looks right 0.336 11%
Brad Miller 0.308 67% looks right 0.350 14%
Mike Moustakas 0.312 59% looks high 0.293 -6%
Domonic Brown 0.331 67% looks high 0.306 -8%
David Wright 0.347 62% looks right 0.310 -11%
Garrett Richards 3.75 58% looks right 2.59 -31%
Dallas Keuchel 3.83 67% looks high 3.75 -2%
Jake Arrieta 4.12 59% looks right 2.46 -40%
Jake Odorizzi 4.28 67% looks right 3.65 -15%
Collin McHugh 4.36 59% looks right 3.20 -27%
Justin Verlander 3.62 58% looks right 3.79 5%
Matt Cain 3.83 74% looks right 4.10 7%
Shelby Miller 3.95 61% looks right 4.94 25%
Clay Buchholz 4.12 58% looks right 3.62 -12%
Felix Doubront 4.28 52% looks right 4.60 7%

Here’s a fun fact for you: the five offensive over-achievers were projected for an average .341 wOBA. Since the post was published, they’ve put up an average .340 wOBA. Meanwhile, the five offensive under-achievers were projected for an average .320 wOBA. Since the post was published, they’ve put up an average .319 wOBA. That’s remarkable in its simplicity. Again, small samples, and again, don’t draw too much from this, but the projections have had those particular players nailed.

There’s a different story on the pitching side. The five pitching over-achievers were projected for an average 4.07 FIP. Since publishing, they’ve put up an average 3.13 FIP. The five pitching under-achievers were projected for an average 3.96 FIP. Since publishing, they’ve put up an average 4.21 FIP. Four of the five over-achieving pitchers have meaningfully beaten their June 16 projections. Four of the five under-achieving pitchers have done worse. It’s also hard to know what to make of Justin Verlander — he was projected for a 3.62 FIP, and he’s come in at 3.79, which would be a very mild decline. But he’s also yielded a 5.00 ERA, and that’s dreadful, and this is just what happens sometimes when you’re trying to analyze pitcher performance. You don’t know which category is necessarily the most meaningful.

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So, about the polls. This won’t surprise you, but it’s a mixed bag. The player for whom people believed the projection the least was Domonic Brown. Indeed, he’s undershot his projection by 8%. People also figured the projections were too high on Mike Moustakas, and he’s undershot his projection by 6%. Yet, two-thirds of people were willing to buy Dallas Keuchel, and he’s basically equaled his projection. Brian Dozier has equaled his projection, despite the same kind of vote distribution. Voters were a lot more willing to believe in Keuchel than they were willing to believe in Collin McHugh, and it’s McHugh who’s continued to pitch like a front-of-the-rotation starter. Not that Keuchel’s been bad or anything, and he did have a wrist issue for some time, but before the post he had a 16.2% K-BB% and since publishing he’s come in at 7.7%.

At the other end, people were relatively unwilling to buy Nelson Cruz, and he’s sure enough slowed down. Same for Lonnie Chisenhall, despite his dinger just a little while ago. Three-quarters of people were also unwilling to think Jedd Gyorko was a pile of crap, and he’s rebounded to be better than average. The crowd kind of missed the boat on Matt Cain, who’s now out with surgery. They also missed on Jake Odorizzi.

There is some other stuff you can try to take from this. You can do that at your leisure! And it’s interesting that, in even the most extreme case shown, 20% of people still didn’t believe the projections. You can say that 80% of people had the right idea about Nelson Cruz, but even there one out of five figured Cruz had made an improvement. One out of five people figured that Chisenhall had made an improvement, and he’s actually gotten a good deal worse. So, each case provides a little mental fodder, for your consideration, but maybe the best thing to be done with all this is to try the same thing again in 2015, and in 2016, and so on and so forth. Maybe, in time, we could build a real sample of polling data and results. If not, at least we’d get to think about baseball.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

26 Comments
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Jaack
11 years ago

I wonder if Jedd Peesovcrapo will rebound from being such a jerk.

triple_rMember since 2020
11 years ago
Reply to  Jaack

…what?

Bats Left, Throws Right
11 years ago

In order to understand the table don’t we need a) performance at time of poll b) projection at time of poll and c) total season performance? If I’m understanding the table right we have b) and c) but it’s confusing.

Bob
11 years ago

If you really want to revisit the accuracy of the projections, shouldn’t you be looking at the average error of each projection, not the average of the final data versus the average of the projection? Otherwise it doesn’t really mean much as far as how well you can predict any individual player.

snack man
11 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Hi commutative property, meet Bob. Bob, meet the commutative property. I don’t believe the two of you have been introduced.

ChummyZ
11 years ago

And the bandwagon of shitting on Nelson Cruz unjustifiably continues.

On one hand, yes, Cruz’s surface wOBA has regressed. But the “how” is much more interesting. You see, he’s maintained the 3% drop in K rate that he had early on. His BB rate dropped a tad but is still slightly above his career average (possibly noise). His batted ball mix is the same as usual. His average flyball distance is elite (297+ ft) as it was last year, and his HR/FB rate is within his normal range. This was all pretty similar to what it was back when you started this.

So what caused the wOBA drop? BABIP. Despite his usual batted ball mix, his BABIP is 30 points below his career norm. His BABIP from Jun-Aug was around .220, which even with a few more IFFBs, is clearly out of line for a guy who has a career .300 BABIP.

If this was saber-darling Alex Gordon, you’d just say “BABIP regression” and move on. But because Fangraphs can’t fathom the fact that Nelson Cruz provides value, you choose to say that Cruz hasn’t made an improvement despite him improving his K rate (including z-contact) and his ISO. If it wasn’t for his BABIP slump, Cruz would likely have a similar wOBA to what he had earlier this year, and he’d still likely be dismissed by the saber crowd.

I know this isn’t a “study,” but this doesn’t even qualify as a review in my book.

Bobby Bonilla
11 years ago
Reply to  ChummyZ

Nelson “Steroids” Cruz is garbage. Always has been, always will be. It makes sense that he plays for a garbage team like the Orioles. Its sad when the highlight of your decade is winning a post season appearance where you’ll just be swept out by any single one of the other teams.

Then there are the Orioles fans. Complete, utter rubbish. Worse fan base in baseball. A HUGE issue that they are being slighted just because someone doesn’t acknowledge that their team isn’t in first. Just be happy with being in first? No no no. The world must scream it from the mountains! All this despite the fact that the team is horrible. There are two useful players on the whole team that would be guaranteed jobs with other teams. Two. This is not a great ball club. Its a team of scrubs. Just like their fans.

Here is a tip: Go outside. Breath in some air, get some sun. Stop taking every thing as some kind of doubt to your self worth. Accept that the Orioles probably aren’t the best team in baseball, but you know what? Gosh that is ok! They are in first! They will go the playoffs! Be happy with that. Stop caring what other people write or say. Smile and move on safe in the thought that you are happy with your teams performance.

Basically stop being a self-defensive, low self-esteem dick.

Nelson Cruz sucks.

Manny Alexander
11 years ago
Reply to  Bobby Bonilla

Yeah! Orioles fans are stupid heads!

Robert Hombre
11 years ago
Reply to  ChummyZ

ChummyZ closes his book, ‘Nelson Cruz: The Saber Crow(d) Vultures Descend.’ One day, when he looks back at those things which qualify as a review, he will remember those articles penned by a particularly optimistic Orioles writer at Bleacher Report as what qualifies as a review. One day, he will reflect on the fact that there are no real studies in his book, from Bleacher Report or anywhere else. One day, he will reflect on these and other facts. But today, there is no reflect. ChummyZ is just closing a book.

A book in which there are no Saber articles from stupid FanGraphs.

frivoflava29
11 years ago
Reply to  ChummyZ

Furthermore… I just have to point out that FanGraphs has recently not only gone so far as to publish two articles dismissing the straw man argument that Alex Gordon is worth his WAR total, but site founder Dave Cameron actually opened up a major discussion about the defensive component of WAR the same day this article was posted. I hope I don’t find you hiding under a bridge later, because there’s no way I can pay this toll.

ChummyZ
11 years ago
Reply to  frivoflava29

Dave didn’t open up anything. Jeff Passan did. Frankly, Dave didn’t even address mos of Passan’s main points and argued over minutia such as “100 WAR to give out” and the 57/43 thing.

Most importantly, he ignored Passan’s main accusation that Fangraphs implicitly tells its readers to trust WAR over everything by having many articles being WAR-centric with little else.

Andrew
11 years ago
Reply to  ChummyZ

I never realized one brief sentence in reference to one objective stat qualified as “shitting on” someone. Thank you for enlightening all of us ChummyZ.

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

Being a fan(atic) is funny when observed from the outside sometimes.

ChummyZ
11 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

Did you forget last winter?

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  ChummyZ

It was cold here.

Brandon
11 years ago

I’m still confused at how you guys reach your conclusions that the projections have the hitters ‘nailed’. IMO to say projections work, you need to look at projection performance at the individual level, not the group level.

Overachievers
Brian Dozier, off by -.007. That’s very good.
Michael Brantley, off by -.028. We’ll call that mediocre and be generous.
Lonnie Chisenhall, off by +.056. That’s horrible.
Nelson Cruz, off by -.030. Mediocre.
Victor Martinez, off by -.05. Horrible.

Averaging the absolute value of the errors, instead of simply adding them and letting the low side misses cancel out the high side misses, you get an error per player of .0342. I am arriving at a completely different conclusion than you do – the projections missed by a mile. That’s the difference in 2014 hitters of Mike Trout to Justin Morneau, per player, that’s how far off the projections were.

Let’s do underachievers
Gyorko, off by -.032.
Miller, -.042.
Moose, +.019.
Brown, +.025.
Wright, +.037.

This list just about as bad as the overachievers, and average projection error of .031 per player. Really, only one player had a good projection, and that was Dozier.

george
11 years ago
Reply to  Brandon

ya, that was really just dumb luck that the averages worked out.

Kris
11 years ago
Reply to  Brandon

Yeah… not really sure why we’re not using absolute values in determining the ‘success’ of the projections.

Michael
11 years ago
Reply to  Brandon

it’s predicting the mean- not exactly what that player will get. Having 10 players instead of 1 is essentially just a larger sample size.

If you flip a coin 4 times and it gets heads 3 times, it doesn’t mean the 50% chance was wrong.

If you flip it 40 times we’re more likely to get close to 50%.

ChummyZ
11 years ago
Reply to  Michael

But that’s useless if we’re supposed to use projections on an individual player basis. The projections are meant to be “based on these inputs, here’s what an estimate would be.” Obviously on the whole they’re going to be near the real life averages. Just because they’re close on the whole doesn’t mean they do a good job of actually projecting an individual player’s performance, which is what they’re supposed to be good at in the first place.

demon777
11 years ago

I’m confused by this table. It says 80% of people says Nelson Cruz looks right but the protection was to high so wouldn’t that make them wrong?

Pirates Hurdles
11 years ago
Reply to  demon777

They were right that Cruz would perform worse than his current production in June (as the projection suggested), but they were wrong about how far he would fall off (ie, the projection was actually too optimistic). I agree with the comment above that the table would be clearer if the current production (circa June) were included.

Jeff Tackett
11 years ago

I don’t know, dude, Cruz has been raking it lately.

MattyD
11 years ago

I kinda feel like this misses the point of the exercise… Weren’t we trying to find out if adding in the human element could improve a projection? We have the projections, which countless studies show are right on average in a variety of circumstances. Now we’ve got some outliers halfway through with updated projections and we want to try to pick out which are at a new performance level and which were just random (again, with the frequently validated assumption that the projections are right on average).

I would sort the table based on the percent who thought the projections were right. If the polls were right, those guys should revert more than the others. Small sample size, of course, but if I do sort that way, it looks like the added poll info is valuable. Correlation between the percentage that voted for performance and the extent to which the players continued to out/under-perform was 0.22 with hitters at a whopping 0.63 correlation and pitchers a dismal -0.20. (Insert SSS reminder here…)

Projections were most believed for Cruz, Chisenhall, Gyorko, Cain, and Brad Miller. Only Cain failed to revert to beyond the projection.
On the other side, performance was most believed over projections for Keuchel, Brown, Dozier, Moustakas, and Doubront. All 5 stayed on the same side of their projections as their performance, though the magnitudes were small.

Definitive, no. Interesting, I think so.