Touki Toussaint and Prospect Valuation
On late Saturday night, the Diamondbacks and Braves made a trade, but while players were sent in both directions, this was really more of just a sale. Sure, the Braves did give up a player — replacement-level utility guy Phil Gosselin, currently on the DL — in the swap, but they traded Gosselin for a legitimate prospect and a Major League pitcher, which only makes sense when you add in the financial aspects of the deal. In taking on the remainder of Bronson Arroyo’s salary — roughly $10 million, including the buy-out of his 2016 option — the Braves essentially bought pitching prospect Touki Toussaint from the Diamondbacks for that $10 million figure.
While this isn’t an entirely new type of trade — the Dodgers essentially did this same thing a few months ago when they bought a draft pick from the Orioles by taking Ryan Webb off their hands — it’s still a little unusual to see a team make a trade that can so clearly be broken down as a legitimate asset for just straight cash. And in this case, it’s made even more unusual because the team selling the prospect is in rebuilding mode, so we have an organization focused on the future selling an asset with future value in exchange for short-term financial relief.
But it shouldn’t be a big surprise that the team doing the unexpected is the Diamondbacks, who have been marching to the beat of their own drum ever since Tony La Russa and Dave Stewart took over. The D’Backs don’t operate like the other 29 franchises do, and they don’t see things like everyone else, so they make moves that cause a lot of heads to be scratched. This move is no different, with the trade drawing near total criticism from Arizona’s perspective. At its heart, though, this is simply a question of how to value an A-ball pitching prospect, so let’s break this down and see if the D’Backs really did get fleeced on this deal.
Let’s start with Toussaint, who represents the talent aspect of this deal. Taken with the 16th overall selection a year ago, Kiley McDaniel rated him as a 50 FV prospect, placing him 116th on his pre-season Top 200 list, noting that he had plenty of upside based on raw stuff but was not particularly polished and was a long way from the big leagues. In the 58 innings he’s thrown as a professional, he’s lived up to that billing, as his good stuff has not led to good results, but in talking with Kiley, he doesn’t believe the industry consensus has changed on Toussaint in the 12 months. He’d still grade him a 50 FV, said he’s “easily in the Top 200”, and believes he would have gone in the 12-22 range in the most recent draft, the same range he went in a year ago.
As a raw right-handed pitching prospect, Toussaint represents one of the highest risk/reward profiles of any prospect in the game. In fact, the overwhelming likelihood is that Toussaint never makes any real substantial impact at the big league level. In 2011, Scott McKinney did a great job breaking down the success rates of different types of prospects ranked in Baseball America’s Top 100, and his data showed a bust rate north of 80% for pitching prospects in every bucket of the back-end of the Top 100, with it climbing as high as 88% for pitchers ranked in the 90-100 range. There’s something like a 9-in-10 chance that Toussaint never turns into anything, and the D’Backs end up having saved $10 million without losing anything that will hurt them long-term. The most likely outcome, by a lot, is that the D’Backs win this trade when it’s looked at with the benefit of hindsight.
That fact alone should give us pause before roasting Dave Stewart for making this deal, but it’s not a good enough justification for doing it. After all, there’s more to valuation than simply calculating failure rate; you absolutely have to weigh that risk against the potential rewards of success. Any proper valuation will arrive at a conclusion that balances risk and reward, giving you a sense of how much you should pay for an asset with a range of possible outcomes. Even if pitching prospects like Toussaint have a 90% failure rate, then you should still be willing to pay the 10% chance of success, and the fact that failure is the most likely outcome doesn’t make him worth discarding.
A number of people have built prospect valuation models that include both risk and reward, and turn those odds into a dollar value based on what teams have spent to buy wins in the past. The most recent model to attack this problem was presented by Kevin Creagh and Steve DiMiceli, and we’ve highlighted their model before. Based on their calculations, a back-of-the-Top-100 pitching prospect had an asset value of $9.6 million, almost exactly the price the D’Backs just sold Toussaint for. So, if you’re looking to defend this trade from the Diamondbacks perspective, this model is a pretty good place to start.
That said, I think there’s a pretty decent argument that their reported valuations are too low. Their estimated value of the elite hitting prospect was just under $50 million, but Yoan Moncada — generally ranked as more of a #10-#20 prospect in baseball than a top-tier guy — signed for a total cost of $63 million, plus the Red Sox absorbed some penalties on acquiring future talent for signing Moncada at that price. The Dodgers were reportedly willing to offer as much as $35 million — which would have doubled to $70 million with the 100% tax — if Moncada would have waited until July 2nd to sign, so that they could retain their flexibility to use their trucks full of cash to sign international talent this summer. So Moncada’s market value looked to be roughly double that of what Creagh and DiMiceli estimated with their model.
And we’re seeing higher prices on lower-end guys as well. The Angels spent $8 million to sign shortstop Roberto Baldoquin, who ranked at the back-end of Kiley’s Top 200, and with the tax on the overage, their total cost for acquiring him pushed up over $13 million. And then there was the D’Backs own signing of Yoan Lopez, another 45 FV prospect rated lower than Toussaint by essentially every prospect evaluator out there; the D’Backs paid him $8 million and paid a 100% tax on that signing, so Lopez actually cost them $16 million. The same front office that sold Toussaint for $10 million paid 60% more than that for a pitching prospect just a few months ago, and surrendered the right to sign high-end international talents in the year that they have the largest allotted bonus pool in the process.
And as previously mentioned, the Dodgers paid $2.7 million back in April to buy the 74th pick in the most recent draft; that pick comes with a slot value of $827,000, so by the time the Dodgers sign Josh Sborz, they’ll have paid roughly $3.5 million to acquire a prospect who isn’t anywhere near Toussaint; Kiley has profiled him as a “future reliever”. With restricted spending, rich teams are now driving up the values of prospects, and while Creagh and DiMiceli did a very good job with their information, I think their valuations are roughly half of what the market has been paying for talent.
So I’d say Toussaint is probably worth something closer to $20 million than $10 million, at least if we believe that he’s still roughly a back-end Top 100 pitching prospect. But this trade should perhaps cause us to reconsider how strongly we are convinced of that stance.
Perhaps one of the more important research pieces done in the last few years was Matt Swartz’s work on “Other People’s Players”. In the 2012 Hardball Times Annual, Swartz showed that players who change teams often perform worse than their projections would have suggested, but players who are retained by their current team perform at a higher level. Swartz posited that this was evidence of information asymmetry, as the team-switchers group is biased because they include mostly players who the organization with the most information rejected at the market price. In this case, the Diamondbacks are the team with the most information on Toussaint, and the fact that they sold him on the cheap is a data-point in favor of the idea that Toussaint may not be as good as everyone else thinks.
You don’t want to carry this idea to an extreme and use it to justify every decision every organization makes, since having more information doesn’t guarantee you’re making the right evaluation, but when a team dumps a player for what seems to be too light of a price, we should at least allow for the possibility that they know more than they’re letting on. The fact that Toussaint was sold for $10 million should moderate our certainty that he was worth $20 million. He may have been, but that’s less likely today than it was a few days ago.
If the D’Backs know something about Toussaint that hasn’t reached the masses yet, or if his mediocre performances aren’t just a guy working on command in the low levels, then this is probably a reasonably valuation for Toussaint. But I’ll posit that even if we allow that $10 million isn’t too far off what Toussaint might be worth — and that’s probably the most generous conclusion we can draw, based on the evidence — that this deal is still pretty freaking weird, given that the Diamondbacks need talent more than they need $10 million in present cash. After all, this is an organization that just signed a $1.5 billion TV deal a few months ago.
And it’s not clear exactly how the D’Backs could really spend that money to acquire talent any better than Toussaint. As noted, the Lopez signing disqualifies them from going big on international free agents for the next two years, so they can’t use this money to buy a bunch of new prospects that they like better. They could theoretically use the cost savings to take on a 2016 contract that brings them someone more likely to help them in 2016, but then again, why not just trade Toussaint for whoever that guy might be and try to get more than $10 million in savings on the contract?
Realistically, this looks like the D’Backs just deciding that they don’t buy into Toussaint’s future value, and if they thought his stock was only going to go down the longer everyone got a look at him, this could be seen as salvaging some value from an asset with declining value. That’s basically the only argument you can put together on why this trade might make sense from Arizona’s perspective. If they know something about Toussaint that suggests he’d be valued significantly lower this winter, then taking what you can get now is a reasonable proposition.
But I can’t find anyone else in baseball who thinks this was the right time to pull the plug on last year’s first round pick. Not for $10 million in cash savings for a team who doesn’t have a good way to reinvest those savings in order to get a better return. Not for a rebuilding team who should be prioritizing the present over the future. The D’Backs might be convinced that they know something everyone else doesn’t know, but they thought about Peter O’Brien being able to catch too. Sometimes, weird ideas are just weird ideas.
Maybe in a few months, we’ll all see what the D’Backs think they saw in Toussaint. It’s possible, and probably more likely than has been allowed for. But it’s quite also possible that the D’Backs just screwed up, and sold an asset for a fraction of his actual worth.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
I agree, but isn’t the weird thing about this deal that if everyone actually thinks they got killed on this trade.. doesn’t that suggest there were actually better deals out there? That’s what I find confusing about this deal.
I think TLR/Stewart/Duncan simply do not buy into the “Moneyball” (for lack of a better term) mindset. TLR at least was notorious in his disdain for the conclusions people drew from that book… It is unclear what paradigm they are working under but considering that both Stewart and Duncan are behind this I think it unfair to just throw our hands up and say “they’re just crazy or bad at baseball”. They may not be right in the end, but there is certainly reasoning there…
My guess is that The D’backs see him as a sunk cost and that they shopped him around and this was the best offer. Just because other people said the asset was worth more does not mean the market was there. People are much freer when they spend others money.
Right, so I think that’s kind of my point.
Yeah, I don’t think there were any better deals out there. But I also don’t think TLR et al are as concerned about wringing economic profit from a trade as most.
“I think TLR/Stewart/Duncan simply do not buy into the “Moneyball” (for lack of a better term) mindset.”
Not sure what this means — can you clarify? If anything, the Beane mantra in the book (and still to this day) would suggest that the market systematically overvalues prospects (based on a too high reward assumption.) This explains why Beane has been a consistent seller of prospects…
Please note that I qualified the use… I think it is more helpful than not. But if it leads to confusion, I will retract it.
There are a set of assumptions about the intersection of baseball and economics underlying the book “Moneyball”. To a large extent the writing at Fangraphs embodies that mindset. TLR has been an outspoken critic of what he understands that mindset to be. Therefore I think trying to analyze TLR’s decisions based on those assumptions ONLY is sub-optimal.
An example, TLR famously described “Moneyball” as not letting bad players swing because bad things happen when bad players swing. He then said, my players are good, I want them to swing: good things happen when they swing.
Now, one can argue the point TLR made there but one can’t argue that there is a clash of assumptions… Otherwise, TLR looks like he is talking crazy… And he is based on the CW but not based on his assumptions.
You seem like a knowledgeable fan and I appreciate the commentary, but I am not following — nor do I understand the linkage between Tony La Russa’s Moneyball / OBP / advanced stats and this article…
Selling something for below its market value (as is asserted in the above article) is always dumb, regardless of your analytical process in getting there…
Quite frankly as someone who followed TLR/Duncun through the Cardinal years, I feel like they emobdied what moneyball really meant. Just because they don’t publicly worship Bill James nor show their love numbers doesn’t mean they are dont follow moneyball principles. If anything they were one of the first group to practice things like shifts/obp/defense/etc.
Heard the d backs told him not to throw his curve (arguably his best pitch). Was late to the game i went to he pitched this year so only saw him for one inning but he didnt throw any curves then.
He’s been working on fastball command and his changeup. The curve will play, they wanted him to get the other pieces in place first.
The place they may be looking to get a return is the stock market. The point of a baseball team, after all, is to make money for the people who own it. Could be that ownership decided they can make more money investing that $10m now than they could hoping that Toussaint makes more money for them in the future.
Or maybe they just want to buy another mansion. $10m is actually a lot of money (even if it’s not such a big deal in the baseball world).
I think that is unfair. The D’backs are not Loria. They are out in the market making deals and singing prospects for reasonable amounts…
The small dollar amount makes me think that they just wanted to wash their hands of him. They wanted him gone and gone yesterday.
Maybe a new T206 Honus Wagner jumbo card popped up and Ken Kendrick needs a quick few million to grab it?
I think it more likely he “is a bad guy/influence”, “unteachable” or “lacks grit”.
No, they’re not Loria. The Dbacks are quite a bit worse at scouting, trades, and player development than the Marlins.
Are you referring to the TLR/Stewart/Duncan regime? Or the entire history of the franchise?
The first word out of Stewart’s mouth to the media about Gosselin was, “Gritty.” Make this up, you cannot.
Exactly. Analyzing the actions of TLR/Stewart et al from the default standpoint of Fangraphs is sub-optimal.
The D’backs factor in personality/makeup/??? to an exceptionally high degree. And factor in economics to an exceptionally low degree.
That does not mean they are wrong or irrational. They are merely acting on the basis of a different set of assumptions.
It also doesn’t mean that TLR and Duncan are not as sophisticated respecting the raw data on pitching as any writer here.
I “think” they are many times more sophisticated AND knowledgeable as to the raw data than any writer here at Fangraphs.
Interesting article but it has a weird arc. Your analysis shows that despite conventional wisdom, the trade wasn’t crazy from Arizona’s perspective, only to conclude that for some reason conventional wisdom is correct and it is crazy.
This seems like overthinking. If you believe that $10 million is a decent return for Toussaint in terms of long-term on-field value despite the currently inflated market for prospects, and further believe that AZ may have some special insight into his abilities and wants to sell high on a player they believe is unlikely to contribute on the big-league level, then it isn’t a crazy trade. $10 million is valuable whatever you do with it.
Exactly. Fangraphs seems to be unable to examine the D’backs with any kind of neutrality.
This will infuriate people, but I think it is because TLR does not buy into the Beane/moneyball paradigm which has captured them completely.
Well, if Cameron is right, the Diamondbacks are very moneyball. They identified a market inefficiency (overvaluation of other teams’ prospects) and exploited it.
That’s tautological when applied to a single transaction, right?
I would also posit that the least likely thing to determine a TLR decision is that there is a market inefficiency somewhere.
TLR is a traditional baseball guy who happens to be incredibly up to date on the raw data. He is also completely uninterested in traditional economic thought. Trying to use economics to figure out why he did something is not useful. Personality (grit(!) and makeup and chemistry) is far more important than any economic considerations…
That’s the second time you’ve made very vague reference to “Moneyball”, seemingly completely out of place.
What specifically have you identified as the “Moneyball paradigm” and in what way does TLR not buy into it?
The fungibility of talent is a pure and core moneyball/fangraphs/SABR assumption. TLR does not think that way.
The “fungibility of talent”? I need you to define that for me. At face value, it doesn’t resemble anything related to moneyball, sabr, or fangraphs (which are three distinct things).
OG, NL’s comment might be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.
The problem isn’t with the valuation of Touki, but with the rationale for the trade. You have a team flush with cash and short on MLB talent and there is no obvious way to reinvest the savings in talent acquisition. There is just no reason to do this unless ownership mandated saving money. If that was the case then you get into the 2nd argument about Gosselin being the best available option.
Yeah, and the weird thing is that the DBacks FO is insisting that this was not a salary dump, and they are under no pressure to cut payroll.
So they’re either lying or really, really like Gosselin.
D’backs might not consider themselves out of the playoff race this year. Or want to bolster their team next year while they still have friendly contracts for Goldschmidt, Pollock, Tomas and Corbin. They might try to be shakers at the deadline or this off season.
Pretty much what I mean is that they don’t want to have to wait for 3 or 4 years for arms to develop and would rather take that 10M and be able to grab something else with it while they still feel like they can win.
The problem is saying it was not a salary dump. I mean, teams lie about this all the time, but usually there is a glossier veneer that makes the lie less laughable.
Sure, in reality they probably have some sort of budget and getting $10 million now means they can spend it now (or at least much sooner). But they just signed a $1.5 billion dollar TV deal. I think the problem is that they could have not dumped Arroyo and could still have spend $10 million more dollars. It’s not like they literally don’t have the money.
In a vacuum, I think it’s a reasonable return. People in the online baseball community consistently overvalue prospects with high upside (maybe due to positive skewness?). However, I think Cameron’s point about a lack of available options for reinvesting those savings is a legitimate one. For that reason, I would agree that the deal is a bit of a head-scratcher.
But the Diamondbacks THEMESELVES spent MORE on a worse prospect just months ago (Lopez), so I don’t think this is a case of the public overvaluing prospects.
I see this assumption listed often. Just because some talent evaluators rated Lopez lower than Toussaint does not mean that the D-Backs view the situation in the same way. It’s entirely possible that the D-Backs simply don’t love Toussaint and are extremely high on Lopez.
Add in they used a draft pick on him, it wasnt just money in terms of cost. Keep in mind brandon finnegan went the pick after him and has already been in the big leagues.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if TLR responded getting rid of the guy was “addition by subtraction”.
It is not just regular folks like us. Fangraphs, BP, Sickels, Callis, Keith Law, there are a lot of expert opinions that this is a lousy deal.
Now maybe you are saying everyone is consistently overvaluing prospects, but you specifically said “online baseball community”, which to me meant regular folks. But the experts are all doubting that the D-backs got their value back in return in the deal.
It’s still a crazy trade because they traded for an injured utility infielder. They could have gotten more than that.
This is another clear example of the Diamondbacks getting shorted. They overpaid for Hellickson. They acted irrationally in offloading Arroyo. They took a light return on Trumbo. They cut their own feet out from under them in signing Lopez. The team is primed to be good in 2017, but they’ll be horrendous not too far after that. They’re borrowing from the future time and again, taking the short side on deals and deferring the consequences. $10 million only helps if they want to take a shot at the playoffs right now, but they’ve overachieved based on projections and they have plenty of question marks. Patience was in order and they’ve failed to exercise it. The long game builds consistent winners and D-backs are shortsighted.
I could have done a better job than their front office has over the past several months. There are only 3 teams I feel that way about – the Dbacks, the Phillies, and the Rockies.
No you couldnt.
Offloading Arroyo was the exact opposite of irrationality. Here’s a guy who, at best, will be able to give his club six-to-eight weeks of middle or long relief before moving on. The DBacks have no shortage of rehabbing and former starters in that situation already; the last thing they need is one more in an overcrowded pen if they can find someone to take him off their hands.
Also, it’s important to remember that Arizona received another guy who can cover third base when he returns. The more 3B-types the club can collect, the less reason it will ever have to move Yasmany Tomas out of right again for even an inning.
The argument isn’t that they needed Arroyo. It is either that (a) they needed Touki more than $10m or (b) if they didn’t, they could have founded teams to trade more than the Braves did…
A) Toussaint is a guy who’s said to have great stuff but has to display anything special in game situations. He’s absolutely worth throwing in to get salary relief.
B) If the DBacks could have found someone who liked Toussaint more than the Braves did, I guarantee that deal would have been made. It’s tough to find someone willing to take a flier on a kid just to acquire the privilege of paying ten million bucks to a guy pushing forty who maybe throws twenty or thirty innings. I’m frankly impressed that Arizona got anything back at all.
“…has YET to display…”
I put faith in Stewart, Dave Duncan and Randy Johnson when it comes to evaluating the organizations pitchers. I know Duncan and Johnson have both been on the road the last two months evaluating them. Obviously there was something with Toussaint they didn’t like. It was interesting that in the most recent draft they completely ignored prep pitchers in favor of college arms. In addition to their young arms currently on the team I know they are also high on Shipley, Blair and Lopez. With Corbin coming back and their young starters pitching well I know there was no desire to keep Arroyo so they found a team to take his 10M sunk cost of their hands and it only cost them a 19 year old pitcher they have obviously soured on. Now Arroyo gone Hill is the only horrible KT contract on the books. They now only have 26M in contracts on the books for next year. With Goldy locked up for four more years in the best contract in MLB, young players like Pollock, Incierte, Tomas, Lamb, Peralta and Ahmed under control and a lot of young promising arms developing the future looks bright for the Dbacks. I think Larussa and Stewart are doing a great job even if it is in a different way than other franchises. Such a relief after the KT disasterous regime the last few years.
The key here isn’t the Dbacks thinking poorly of their prospect. They’re surely sophisticated enough to understand that others don’t have as much info and might think more highly. The key is that, if they’re right, Toussaint will quickly lose value as other teams start seeing him more, especially against better hitters at higher levels. So they got their $10m for him now.
Sure, and that’s perfectly valid, but then you think that they should have been able to do better than Gosselin as the return.
shouldn’t the dbacks savings reflect my lost signing bonus of 2.7m? wait, i just looked it up, Rosenthal says ultimate savings is 7m.
The signing bonus is a sunk cost and shouldn’t effect how he was valued internally by the D’backs or on the open market.
Yup. It wasn’t “$10m or $2.7m,” it was $12.7m or $2.7m.
“Other People’s Players”
You down with O.P.P.?
Maybe ARI just wanted to dump Arroyo and Toussaint was the price, and any public words are just posturing
From an actual ‘prospect value’ perspective I think the Dbacks did just fine in this trade. A large likelihood of bust (value=0) – and much of the remaining is marginal excess value over marginal cost during pre-arb and arb years (ie easily replaceable in some future draft).
From a ‘could they have gotten themselves a better trade’ perspective, I think the Dbacks got hosed. So many teams out there way overvalue prospects merely because there is a certainty of long-term control of those costs. OTOH – maybe they did shop Touki around and only had the one offer.
I’m sure at least one team would have offered someone better than an injured, old utility guy and I’m fairly certain a dozen teams could have happily beaten the accepted offer.
Isn’t the whole point of the Creagh Dimicili article about SURPLUS value? Like how much value a team gets over and above the cost of that player’s salary? Seems like Dave is making it strictly about acquistion cost.
So Yoan Lopez looks high now, but if he produces X dollars minus his $16 million signing cost, then that’s how you judge his value. At least by the Creagh Dimicili mehtod.
Great points and really nice, thoughtful analysis. Here’s my corollary: Arizona has seen quality arms not pay major league dividends recently, and so their strategy is don’t keep young arms. Buy arms. I really believe the valuation of Toussaint was not just how much a back 100 pitcher is, but how valuable is it to the rebuilding of the Diamondbacks (TLR and Stewart, mainly).
Buying “broken” arms (and players) and fixing them was the Jocketty/TLR/Duncan way in STL.
The problem lies, it seems, with the fact that there are three separate ways of evaluating this trade.
One is a relatively straightforward question of whether the Diamondbacks “win” or “lose” the trade in terms of how much dollar value Toussaint (and Arroyo) produce going forward versus what, if anything, they get out of Gosselin plus the cost savings. In that respect, it’s entirely possible that they do “win” because most prospects crash and burn.
Two is whether or not they ought to have made the trade at all now, based upon their financial situation. This is a nuanced question requiring a lot more information than we have–it’s been mentioned already, whether they have inside evaluations about Toussaint that suggests he’s at his highest market value now and will only get worse, and also, the question of why they felt the need to dump Arroyo’s salary at this very moment.
Three is, having determined that they were going to make the trade, whether they made the best trade possible. This third area seems to be where everyone in the media is killing them on. Could they have gotten more than Gosselin for Toussaint and Arroyo? Were there, in fact, other offers on the table? Did they do their due diligence with various clubs? It’s easy to sit here and say, “There was a better return available for these two players,” and if Towers was still the Arizona GM I would in fact assume it was true. Since he isn’t, I really have to wonder–maybe they could indeed have gotten more for Toussaint, but not with Arroyo in tow (which would lead us back to Point #2 as to why they felt the need to ditch Arroyo, if this is the case). Or maybe Atlanta was the team that opened negotiations and things never progressed beyond those two teams. Or instead, maybe in a hypothetical open market Toussaint’s value was a lot higher, but in terms of actual offers on the table, Gosselin and salary relief was the best that could actually be gotten.
Unfortunately, Point #1 won’t be resolved until many years down the road, and Points #2 and #3 depend on things we don’t know. I’d like to give Arizona the benefit of the doubt on this, but then again the Doug Fister trade was an actual thing, too, so we know that lopsided trades happen.
Robby Ray is actually pitching better than Doug Fister this year. Oh wait, they since traded Ray for Shane Green and his 8.00 ERA.
Disagree with your 3 points 100%….
#1 — all decisions need to be evaluated ex-ante rather than ex-post. if we all knew the future, of course we’d know the winner, but the decision would be different (i.e., the trade would not have happened.)
#2 — you assert that we cannot know if they needed to dump Arroyo’s salary — I wholeheartedly disagree and think that with $72m this season and $27m committed for next season we DO know that they DID NOT need to dump the salary… they also have said that they don’t need to dump salary… and certainly not at ANY cost..
#3 lastly, the market value (as set forth by the article above) clearly demonstrates the market value was higher — even though we don’t know if there were any alternative offers, we DO know that they sold low on Touki relative to the market.
I don’t know if I like the deal for the DBacks. I do know that I love it for the Braves, who turned a resource of virtually no value (their 2015 and 2016 payroll) into something with potential value. By itself, that doesn’t say much about the DBacks’ end of the trade, though.
It’s probably not a big difference because of the penalties, but when comparing to international signings you should be evaluating them based on NPV, not raw total dollars.
Actually, I think the trade makes sense for both teams. Atlanta gets someone with high upside, and an option on Arroyo, if they want it. They can always negotiate with Arroyo to take a lesser amount by doing the buyout and offering a lower price. But the Dbacks just dumped a non-performing dead cost. More profit to the bottom line, more money to be invested in another player. Both sides get what they wants
“Both sides get what they wants” — I mean… yea, because they did the trade…
the point of the article was that ARI paid too high a price to get what it wants
No, if the motivation for the DBacks was to increase profitability, they just did. If it’s just monetary, then there would have to have been another team willing to pay them more, or, more accurately, take less. If the motivation was to improve it, then obviously, they got nothing of value
That is what a lot of people don’t get, they now have more money to invest, but where can they invest it?
You can’t pick up signability players in the draft much anymore, at least not $10M worth. Their signing of Lopez means that they can’t spend more than $300K on any IFA for the next two years, so they don’t need the $10M for that. And if they pick up a free agent, $10M don’t buy you much anymore, not even an average player.
The only areas that they can invest it in is infrastructure, like if they bought more scouts, or have another minor league team, or bought a super computer to crunch FX numbers, or bought player training tools, like a video training system. But you don’t need $10M to do all that.
And even if they wanted to invest $10M to do all that, their payroll is roughly $75M while revenues are likely around $150M, so money isn’t exactly the reason they need to make this deal.
The only way this deal makes sense is if the owner ordered Stewart and LaRussa to save on Arroyo’s salary, and if it cost them a prospect, so be it. Otherwise, they don’t need the money, they didn’t need Gosselin (at least not at the cost of a top prospect), they could use prospects like Touki.
If you were the owner and had a chance to send a prospect in order to clear $10M, maybe you would, and pocket the cash. It depends on what you value. Fans always want the best talent, owners, not always. Look at Toronto–very deep pocketed owners, and a strict budget.
I think that $10 million figure should be revised. The Dbacks are saving a minimum of $14.5 million, not $10 million. There’s no way around the additional $4.5 million buyout and if the team (Braves) picks up his option instead of the buyout, that’s a $20 million figure instead. The question should be whether Touki Toussant is worth $14.5 million. If you split the Creagh/DiMiceli model versus some of the actual numbers, $14.5 million isn’t too far off of a fair valuation. Your point about where that money could be spent elsewhere is still valid though. Great write-up.
The Diamondbacks have already payed around $4.5 million to Arroyo this year, so the $10 million includes only the portion of his contract that is left plus the buy out.
Yeah, the problem is that this has been widely misreported on other websites.
So Baseball America said this about Toussaint last year during the draft
He’s “arguably the highest ceiling of any high school pitcher.”
Premium stuff, some of the best of that draft class. He flashed a plus-plus curve as an 18-year-old and was touching 97 as an underclassmen in high school. The stuff is probably the best of the entire Braves farm system now, and he just turned 19 yesterday. John Hart ripped off the Diamondbacks, and now I’m about to go listen to Coppollela talk about the trade.
Market price of a unique product is always higher than the consensus price (actual value) in a competitive bidding process unless the market is handicapped by some regulatory or macro-economic factors. Just because the Red Sox overpaid for Moncada does not mean that’s what he is worth
Deals like this are just high stakes gambling. 10 million won’t buy them anything that helps now. 1-2 wins in 2015 won’t change anything. So they invest in a lottery ticket that may or may not pay off someday. These days 10 million is chump change even for smaller market teams, but look like high stakes to us paupers.
How did the Red Sox overpay? The Dodgers were actually willing to spend more for him. By your definition of “overpay” doesn’t every team who signs anybody end up overpaying for said player?
your logical leap is that consensus price = actual value, which is definitively not an absolute truth. I assume you are arguing for the deal from the ATL side?
What makes anyone think that the DBacks will even reinvest that 10mil back into the team? Whats stopping ownership from just pocketing this newfound “profit”?
Dave, I have watched him pitch a number of times for the Kane County Cougers including last week.
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150619/sports/150618770/
1 hit thru 6 innings and consistently in the low 90’s but most interesting, he pitched from the stretch the whole game. They are obviously having him work on things and he still is pretty impressive. I feel he is substantially better than your mediocre label.
Almost all comments here seem to be from the side of the Dbacks. There is a pretty solid pool of evaluators on the Braves side, in fact I would suggest the Braves organization as constructed this year easily outshines the Dbacks. No one seems to give John Hart much credit for taking advantage of this situation and making a potential steal for his club.
The Braves got a potential mid rotation talent while giving up a journeyman bench player (who by the way was already surpassed by other talent on the team making him expendable). The Braves received a tangible talent to develop while the Dbacks received some cash to spend on a mystery future talent.
No risk, no reward. The Braves continue to stockpile high-end pitching talent. The Dbacks get to hold a celebration for their stockholders. Big win for the Braves on this.
No one is commenting on the Braves because it is obvious why they did this deal.
Bottom line: You don’t throw away a top prospect for nothing, just because you feel that you have a surplus or that pitchers have a high failure rate. Getting the Braves to take Arroyo off their hands shouldn’t have cost Touki Toussaint. The DBacks just wasted an asset.