Troy Tulowitzki’s Trade Value

Some news-that-isn’t-really-news came out yesterday: Troy Tulowitzki will not demand a trade from the Rockies. After meeting with his agent, he decided against trying to force their hand, and will continue to play with the Rockies until they decide to trade him on their own timeline. But that is why this news isn’t really news, because Tulowitzki is headed out of Colorado at some point in the not too distant future whether he asked for a trade or not. The Rockies aren’t contenders, and it’s beyond time for them to admit this and divest themselves of expensive aging players who would offer more present value to a team that can win this year.

By not demanding a trade, Tulo takes the pressure off the Rockies to make a deal at a time when buyers aren’t really looking to buy, and allows them to let the market develop a little more naturally. With teams spending a significant portion of their time on the draft over the next three weeks, the Rockies will likely get more attentive bidders if they wait a month or so to aggressively market Tulowitzki as a trade chip. And, from their perspective, waiting another month gives Tulo a chance to stop swinging at everything and remind everyone that he is still an elite hitter; it’s probably best to trade him when he’s not running a .297 OBP.

Despite his mediocre start to the year, it’s probably fair to assume that he is still an elite player; our depth chart Projections have him producing another +3.4 WAR over 408 plate appearances through the remainder of the season, so even though we’re expecting him to miss some time — he is still Troy Tulowitzki, after all — he still forecasts to be one of the two dozen or so most valuable position players in the game. The Rockies will absorb some of that value by keeping him through the draft, but if we assume they’ll start really trying to trade him in a month, he should still have roughly a 300 PA/+2.5 WAR projection left when interested buyers start seriously trying to acquire him.

So that brings up the obvious question; at that point, what is Tulowitzki worth in trade?

On Tuesday, I identified nine potential buyers, pointing to the Mets, Red Sox, and Yankees as the favorites, though various media reports suggest the Yankees aren’t expected to get involved in the bidding. Still, with roughly $115 million left on the remainder of his contract, it’s probably fair to expect Tulowitzki to end up with a high-revenue team that can afford to take a gamble on an expensive star with a history of health problems. The Rockies are clearly going to expect a significant amount of talent in return for their franchise player, and they’re probably not going to be interested in paying for him to play for another team, so the buyer is going to have to figure out what kind of young players they’re willing to offer for the right to take on Tulo as a $20 million per year player.

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First, it’s probably worth noting that while that is a significant portion of any team’s payroll, Tulo’s market value is well above $20 million per year. From 2016-2020, an acquiring team would be on the hook for 5/$98M (if they bought out the 2021 option), which means his contract going forward is not all that different from the one Pablo Sandoval just signed as a free agent last winter, and Pablo Sandoval is no Troy Tulowitzki. If Tulo were a free agent this winter, he’d probably be aiming for something between the Jon Lester/Max Scherzer deals, and with Jacoby Ellsbury as a recent precedent at $150+ million for an injury prone aging up-the-middle guy, I don’t think he’d have too hard a time pushing his annual average value closer to $30 million for five or six years.

So Tulo is both expensive and somewhat underpaid, even with his questionable health track record. It’s pretty clear that the Rockies should be able to get real talent back in exchange, even while forcing the acquiring team to also take on the remainder of his contract, though his cost in salary will have a negative impact on what teams are willing to offer. If the Rockies need a reality check on the trade value of very good players making $20 million per year, they have to look no further than how teams responded to the Phillies various demands relating to Cole Hamels.

Tulo is likely a better trade chip than Hamels, but that’s the comparison that buyers are going to be making themselves; the salaries are comparable, the projected future value is in the same general range — Tulo is more productive but less reliable — and Tulo is only a year younger. I think Tulo will fetch more talent in return than Hamels, but I don’t know that it will be orders of magnitude more, and I’d imagine that many of the same players that teams refused to deal for the Phillies ace will be unavailable for Tulowitzki as well.

If Hamels had roughly $30 or to $40 million in value above and beyond his contract, Tulo probably has $50 or $60 million, but keep in mind, Yoan Moncada — generally not regarded as one of the 10 best prospects in baseball at the moment — just signed for $63 million and some additional penalties, and the Dodgers reportedly offered $70 million if he’d wait until after July 2nd to sign, so the market value of elite prospects is extremely high. The Astros aren’t giving up Carlos Correa and taking on Tulo’s contract. The Dodgers aren’t offering Corey Seager or Julio Urias. And the Red Sox aren’t going to offer up Mookie Betts.

But once you get beyond the top tier of young talent, the values of prospects drop off pretty quickly, and moving away from the one-big-piece trade to focusing on a package of very good but not quite elite players will likely be the Rockies best path forward. While the top prospects in the game are probably worth somewhere between $75 and $100 million, the next tier are probably closer to $30 or $40 million, because they’re generally not ready to contribute at the big leagues right away and come with significantly more risk. So you might not be able to get one one of the very best prospects for Tulo, but two guys from the next tier isn’t unreasonable at all, and since there’s a significant markup on talent in-season, the winning bidder will likely have to give up more than just a couple of a very good prospects to secure the best shortstop in baseball.

So, let’s take the list of teams I threw out there as potential buyers earlier in the week and see if we can build some packages of talent that look reasonable-ish, at least to my eye. The goal is to get Colorado two or three good young talents that are roughly equal in value to prospects in the #11-#50 range, though since not every team has three guys in that grouping, we’ll also include some big leaguers for certain franchises. The prospect ranks in parentheses come from Kiley McDaniel’s preseason Top 200.

The Longshots

Pittsburgh

As noted on Tuesday, they probably won’t take on this kind of salary risk, but there’s an argument that they should, given their window to win during Andrew McCutchen’s prime years. And they have the talent to get it done. Tyler Glasnow (#12), Austin Meadows (#30), and Jameson Taillon (#66) fit roughly the type of package that we spitballed Tulo is worth. Unlikely that the Pirates do it, but there’s a fit here if they want to make a real run the NL Central in the next few years.

Tampa Bay

This one’s tougher, because the only top 50 prospect the Rays featured was Steven Souza, who is now part of their starting line-up. Daniel Robertson (#97) is crushing AA pitching and his stock is likely up since that list was published, but he was only enough to land one year of Ben Zobrist a few months ago, and so making him the feature return for Tulowitzki now would be a difficult argument. The Rays have a lot of good candidates for secondary pieces in a Tulo deal, but it’s not clear that they have a prospect really capable of being the primary return in a trade for Tulo. This was always an extreme long-shot anyway, and given the Rays farm system, I think we can probably say that there isn’t a great fit here.

Anaheim

There is basically one one package you could even pretend to come up with here: Andrew Heaney (#50), Sean Newcomb (#54), and maybe some lower-level guys that the Rockies like but haven’t gained prominence yet. Roberto Baldoquin (honorable mention) was the only other guy Kiley included from their system on his list, so the Angels probably just don’t have enough chips to get this done unless the Rockies put a very high value on Heaney and Newcomb.

Maybe In The Mix

Seattle

This is likely a package that would have to be built around MLB players, as the Mariners two top-50 prospects — Alex Jackson (#20) and D.J. Peterson (#55) — are both struggling badly in the minors this year. Jackson could be still be a piece, but the deal would almost certainly have to be built around Taijuan Walker or James Paxton, with either Brad Miller or Chris Taylor also likely heading back to Colorado, and then some combination of prospects beyond that. If the Rockies prefer big leaguers to prospects, then there could be a deal to be made here, but with the Mariners rotation already thin at the big league level, they may not be too anxious to give up Walker and/or Paxton, and it’s hard to see Colorado trading Tulo to the northwest without getting those kinds of arms back.

Toronto

This is maybe the most interesting one, because the Blue Jays have the young arms the Rockies are looking for, and could send back Jose Reyes to offset Tulo’s salary. A deal including Reyes, Daniel Norris (#17), and Jeff Hoffman (#67) would almost certainly get the Rockies interested, and might even be enough going back to ask for more than just Tulo; at that point, maybe the Blue Jays get Justin Morneau with the Rockies covering his salary as well, or something along those lines. Whether the Blue Jays would want to trade two high-end pitching prospects for an upgrade from one expensive and oft-injured SS to another is an open question, but the Blue Jays could likely make a real run at Tulowitzki if they wanted to.

Houston

The Astros will probably just promote Carlos Correa to play shortstop instead, and while Correa could replace Luis Valbuena at third if they acquired Tulo, they also have Jed Lowrie returning from the DL at some point in the second half of the year, so yeah, this probably isn’t happening either. But if they wanted to make a run at Tulo, and use him to mentor Correa (perhaps flipping them at SS/3B next season), they could probably make an offer with Mark Appel (#18) teamed with Lance McCulllers (#126 pre-season, but likely moving up the charts quickly with a strong 2015), and perhaps include Lowrie to help offset some of the salary they’d be taken on, and give the Rockies a middle infielder for the next few years while they figure out what they have going forward. They have a good amount of depth beyond those arms as well, so if the Astros want to be involved in this bidding, they can be. But they almost certainly will just go with Correa instead.

The Favorites

Boston

This is the one place where a one-shiny-thing offer actually could work, as the Red Sox would be displacing Xander Bogaerts if they acquired Tulo to take over at shortstop, so if the Rockies prefer one big asset over several smaller ones, this is probably their best fit. But if the Rockies want pitching, the Red Sox might not be the right organization to call, since the Red Sox need all the talented pitchers they can find about now, and it’s unlikely that they’d want to include guys like Eduardo Rodriguez (#23) along with Bogaerts while taking on Tulo’s entire contract. If the Rockies paid down some of his salary, that might become a possibility, but even then, the Red Sox might be better off just promoting Rodriguez rather than trading him.

New York Yankees

The Yankees can leak that they’re not in the mix all they want, but I’ll believe it when Tulo actually goes elsewhere. They have the need, the financial capabilities, and the prospects to get it done. Maybe they’re really not interested, but I’d imagine Colorado would be interested in Luis Severino (#26), Aaron Judge (#58), and a few extras. If the Yankees really don’t want to give up that kind of package for the best shortstop in baseball, then they really have turned a new leaf. I still am not buying it, though.

New York Mets

As I said on Tuesday, the Mets are the best fit. They have the pitching depth that the Rockies want and the motivation to make a deal that makes them a legitimate Wild Card contender, rather than just hoping their hot start doesn’t get wiped out too quickly. If the Mets packaged Noah Syndergaard (#19), Amed Rosario (#60), and Steven Matz (#65) together, they’d very likely have their shortstop of the present and the future. Maybe the Rockies even settle for Thor and one of those two, plus some additional stuff. Or maybe they even package up enough of their lower-tier talents with Matz and Rosario to keep Syndergaard out of the deal, arguing that his early 2015 performance puts him in that top tier of guys that aren’t worth giving up. There are plenty of options here, and the Mets have enough depth of young talent to get Tulowitzki if they want him.

Right now, everyone is playing coy and downplaying their interest, but at some point in the next month or so, the best shortstop in baseball is going to become available. These are the kinds of offers I’d expect Colorado to receive when they finally do put him on the market.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

190 Comments
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The Ghost of Dayn Perry
11 years ago

Nice article, Dave.

By Kiley’s own admission, the numbers within Future Value tiers don’t mean much. Instead of using raw rankings, maybe include FV in the parenthesis after players instead?

JC
11 years ago

Cardinals would be in on him. Shift some infielders around and it could work.

McNulty
11 years ago
Reply to  JC

the Rockies would have to take some pretty young and far away talent to make that happen. To make it worthwhile, the Cardinals would need an injury, plus more evidence Heyward can’t hit vs. L, evidence Heyward could play CF against righties, and evidence Piscotty can’t hit when called up.

alex
11 years ago
Reply to  JC

Agreed. Move wong + a prospect or two (piscotty or gonzales) for tulo. tulo’s 5/100m contract seems more in line with cardinals frugality than signing jason heyward to the 8/175-200m he’ll be seeking.

move peralta to 3rd, carp to 2nd (his defense was better there anyways) and slide tulo in at SS. i could totally see the cards doing this with matt holliday and yadi at the end of their primes and waino going down this could be the last chance the cards have in this window with this core.

McNulty
11 years ago
Reply to  alex

1. Wong is under team control for a while, Gonzales is necessary SP depth this year
2. The Cardinals are not obligated to either re-sign Heyward or acquire Tulo. They can do neither
3. Carpenter is better at 3B and I believe he said he’s more comfortable there

CoorsShield
11 years ago
Reply to  McNulty

Wong could win 5 batting titles at Coors

alex
11 years ago
Reply to  McNulty

I agree Wong is a valuable piece because of his youth and low cost. if the cards wanted tulo it would take a piece like wong to get him. Tulo is no doubt a SIGNIFICANT upgrade with the bat and the glove as well for a team built to win right now, so i think it would be reasonable to give some to get a lot. Gonzales does provide depth to the rotation yes, but i think adding tulo would net the cardinals more value for this season and next (holliday, molina and waino all aging. window is now) than the combined value of wong and gonzales.

I agree the cardinals are under no obligation to sign heyward, but the move to get him was an indication the cardinals are looking for a new superstar type player to take the mantle from holliday as he eases out of his prime. Oscar Taveras was thought to be that kind of talent but when he died, Mozeliak obviously tried to fill that void of heir apparent. Tulo could be that guy for less money, since Heyward doesnt seem to be and will still command a large investment in free agency.

carpenter was a slightly above average defensive 2b, and is a slightly above average defensive 3b. i think he would sacrifice some comfort to move back to a position hes played before (during an MVP type campaign) to allow for a win now move like getting tulo.

Mark L
11 years ago
Reply to  McNulty

There’s no way the Cardinals go for him. How much of an upgrade will Tulo be over Peralta? Moving the infield around like’s been suggested is a terrible idea.

The Cardinals have an ageing core, but also a brilliant crew of young guys. They absolutely don’t need to go for broke with a move like this. They’re way more in need of a significant upgrade at 1B than they are at SS.

JoeBrady
11 years ago
Reply to  alex

So you are basically paying $20M/year to replace Wong with Tulo?

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  JC

How can the cards be in on him? What are you going to do, put Petalta at 1st? Doesn’t seem to make much sense for them unless they traded Wong in the deal, out carpenter back at 2nd, then moved Peralta to 3rd…and I just can’t see it.

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  Adam

As far as what it would take, I think rocks ask for Wong and Marco. They may even throw in a 5th starter type to hell STL eat some innings.

Curran
11 years ago

Sorry, but as a Rockies fan I wouldn’t be satisfied with any of the deals you came up with for Tulo here. Yes, the Rockies are terrible in 2015, but that doesn’t mean they will be terrible through 2020, which is how long they have Tulo under their control. Unless someone offers MULTIPLE ELITE prospect PLUS an additional borderline top 100 MLB prospect (preferably heavy on pitchers) I don’t want to move Tulo.

People act like the Rockies need to trade Tulo. They don’t if it doesn’t make sense for them, and as a fan who follows them every day, I see no reason why they shouldn’t keep him and Nolan Arenado around together (who they both have for another five years) and wait for the pitching to develop around them.

I know why you have to write these Tulo deal articles. I clicked on it so you did you job, but just know that as a Rockies fan, if there are anywhere close to the return that’s out there for Tulo, I’d much rather keep him in purple until further notice. I’ll enjoy watching the best left side of the infield in baseball this year even if the pitching is terrible.

MikeMember since 2018
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Perhaps you’re unaware that as a fan, you’re not actually the GM of the team…

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

As a fan, can you please explain to me why the Rockies value hitting over pitching, when they play in the most hitter-friendly parks in the game? Rangers fans can answer me the same thing. If the Rockies don’t offer Price and Greinke $200M each then they need to have MLB take over their front office, because they clearly are not interested in winning.

Mike Hampton
11 years ago

I agree. The best way for the Rockies to contend is to spend most of their payroll on free-agent pitchers. As long as they’re groundball types they should be more than worth it.

Denny Neagle
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Hampton

Oh definitely, great idea. Pitchers are just itching to play in Colorado, so the Rockies won’t have to overpay to get these guys.

channelclemente
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Hampton

Have you ever looked at how poorly sinkerball pitchers due in Colorado? Not enough gravity, I suppose.

Doctor_Christopher
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Hampton

No, he is not the GM, but neither are you. Do you live here? The Rox cannot deal Tulo unless they get at least 2 top pitching prospects (20-50 in current rankings). Because, as the writer correctly stated – they don’t have to trade him. He is actually financially inexpensive based on his WAR, he is the face of the franchise (trading your face for 2 position prospects and a pitching prospect below 50 would not only be stupid, but given the ownerships personal relationship with Tulo, cost Bridich his job), and do nothing to advance a team that actually has a very nice group of positional prospects at HighA and AA. From a pure value-to-value, the Rox would need the equivalent of Matt Harvey (there are more elite starters than elite high WAR SS in baseball…or baseball history). Now, the Mets are trading Harvey, but you have to give them the equivalent of that value in 2-3 pitching prospects. And one other thing to remember. The Rox bought on prospects in the Ubaldo trade and it was a disaster. Management (new GM, but he was here) and ownership will remember that. This team is indeed probably 2 starter away from contending. But if you take Tulo out of that mix, it’s weaker lineup presses that to closer to 3 starters. On the whole – as Bridich make clear earlier this year – you only make trades if it improves in the near-term (1-3 years) your chance of winning. Otherwise, its a fools errand.

vivalajeter
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Hampton

Harvey and Tulo are equivalent value? Are you kidding? Harvey is making about $600K to be an ace. Tulo is making $20MM. Even if you think their production is comparable, the value difference is enormous when factoring in their contracts.

Mike
11 years ago

Ok, so if the Rockies, who are projected to win 73 games this year, don’t spend over half their payroll on two pitchers who will be 30 and 32, respectively, next season the MLB should take over their front office. Ok.

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Makes more sense than keeping a “name” guy whos a hitter, in a park that everybody and their grandmother can hit in.

Its insane how two bad deals 15 years ago in Neagle and Hampton soured the front office on spending money on pitching forever.

McNulty
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

hitting is not binary. There is not “can hit” and “cannot hit”. In fact, there is a website dedicated to advanced statistics that distinguish between players’ hitting ability. I wish I could remember the URL.

Darryl Kile
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Hi guys! Don’t forget about me!

Jason B
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

“in a park that everybody and their grandmother can hit in.”

And that, kids, is why we don’t pay pitchers top dollar to come pitch here!

Curran
11 years ago

They don’t value it more, they just haven’t been able to execute to developmental process with their arms, and the ones they do develop get injured.

Captian obvious
11 years ago

They need to go out and find guys like Kyle Gibson extream groundball pitchers!!

%
11 years ago

Forrest, anybody paying serious attention and not drinking the Kool-aid can see that while they’re absolutely interested in winning in a theoretical sense, the Rockies aren’t interested in winning *more* than they’re interested in making money and providing a fun ballpark experience.

paqza
11 years ago

/s

Kate Upton: Fantasy MVP
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

The difficulty is that Tulo’s salary, as set forth in the article, is high enough to remove much of his value. It is just extremely unlikely that anyone would offer multiple blue chip prospects for him without the Rockies taking a chunk of the salary.

As a fan, it’s sad to see the face of the franchise go away. Living in Houston, it was hard to see anything not nailed down traded away for what seemed like mediocre returns. But doing these types of trades are generally better for the long-term health of the club, even if it kills the present. The Astros were terrible for the last four years, but they are finally coming around again.

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago

He’s got a .297 OBP right now, that’s not hard to find.

As a fan, I’d be ecstatic to know that getting rid of the “face” of the not-good franchise if it meant my team would be major players in the ace-sweeps this winter. Cueto, Zimmerman, Price and are all more important to a Rockies team than any position player.

Jason B
11 years ago

Yep, that .297 OBP of course represents his true talent level. Should probably just release him, if not pay someone to take that liability off their hands. Won’t be any takers though, no one wants a player like that. Can’t help a team, his days of being an all-star, useful regular, and/or bench bat are all in the rear-view mirror…

Bill
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

I get where you’re coming from, but in 2020 Tulo will be 35 years old. Do you really think an aging, injury-prone shortstop will be a central piece of the next competitive Rockies team? It’s certainly a gamble to trade a guy who has been one of the best players in baseball over the last several years and who is also locked up long term, but it’s probably the safest move for Colorado. Yes, they could trade Tulo and he could stay healthy and be an alltstar for years to come, but there’s also a pretty decent chance he breaks down all together. Look at what happened with Carlos Gonzalez – they held onto him for so long that now he basically has no trade value. As great as Tulo is, I don’t think you can expect to get back the kind of package your hoping for.

Curran
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill

And if that package is not available, I’m totally fine with that. Don’t trade him. Simple as that. Again, I’d rather build around Arenado and Tulo as the best left side of the infield in baseball over the next five years than take any offer given in this article.

Bill
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

But how long will it be before the Rockies are competitive again? The whole point that’s being made is that it’s time for Colorado to read the writing on the wall – they need to rebuild, and it’s gonna be awhile until they can contend. And even then, by the time the Rocks are ready to compete again, how valuable is Tulo really going to be? He’s been fantastic, no question about it, but he’s now moving into his 30’s and he’s already demonstrated he can’t shake the injury bug. He’s a big gamble, and I don’t think Colorado can afford to hold onto him with how bad they’re going to be the next few years. Even if you can’t get everything you want for him, getting a bogarts-type player (for example) is a lot better than wasting Tulo’s remaining prime years.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

If the Rockies had offered him to Boston this time last year, they probably could have snagged Bogaerts AND Betts.

So the clock keeps ticking on Tulo’s value. May not turn out as bad as what the Phillies did with Cliff Lee, but the Rockies should still not delay in kicking off their rebuild.

UhOh
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Again, Tulo will not be an elite SS 5 years from now.. More than likely he will be playing 3rd or DH somewhere else.. Do you remember who the last consensus #1 stud hitting shortstop was? It was A-Rod and he hasn’t played SS in over 10 years..

guest_54
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Don’t see a way to reply to UhOh so replying to the comment but Curran.

The statement, “Do you remember who the last consensus #1 stud hitting shortstop was? It was A-Rod and he hasn’t played SS in over 10 years..” might be the most ingenious comment I’ve ever seen and that’s saying A LOT!

I’m not a fan of the Rockies or Rodriguez(dislike him with the fire of 1000 suns actually) but I am a baseball fan; and, I remember vividly that the ONLY reason Rodriguez moved off of short was because no one in the Yankees organization wanted to upset Jeter. I remember seeing countless articles then and since discussing how Rodriguez was a SIGNIFICANTLY better shortstop than Jeter and that the Yankees should have kept him there while moving Jeter to another position.

To say, or imply, that Rodriguez moved to third due to any other reason is completely asinine, IMHO.

guest_54
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Ingenuine comment.

My Neck and My Back
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Try disingenuous or ignorant. Ingenuine is not a word.

Also, Forest Gumption’s point is a valid one. Baseball Prospectus researched this years ago and concluded that, if a team has to decide whether to allocate financial resources to offense or to pitching/defense: (1) the team in an extreme pitchers’ park should focus on hitting; and (2) the team in an extreme hitters’ park should focus on pitching.

I think one of the chapters in Baseball Between the Numbers is devoted to this idea.

FeslenR
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

you can ask for the moon, but you’re not going to get it. Or you can end up like Ruben Amaro and the Phillies and wait too long.

As a baseball fan, I’d like to see the Rockies attempt to improve for the long run. You’re not winning NOW with Tulo or CarGo, to rebuild is very frustrating (I am a Mets fan, so I know); but I’d rather wait until they start winning again.

Shows what little common fans understand.

Purple
11 years ago
Reply to  FeslenR

Gotta love the “Common fans” dig. Impressive sense of self-worth you have

Jim
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Multiple elite prospects plus a borderline top 100? So like the equivalent of Seager, Urias, and Grant Holmes? I’m thinking that’s not going to happen.

Art Vandelay
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

You’re going to be waiting for pitching to develop in Coors for the rest of your life and then some.

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

The Rockies have been a losing team for most of Tulo’s time with them. There’s two simple questions. The first is can the Rockies win with Tulo? If the answer is yes, they go down that route. If the answer is no, then the question becomes, “Do the fans like winning or do the fans like Tulo?” In general, fans prefer winning to marquee players.

cs3
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Good thing fans don’t make trade decisions then isn’t it!

UhOh
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

So you honestly think in 2020 when Tulo is 36 he will still be the same stud SS? You are an idiot if you think any team will give up more than 2 fringe prospects 2-3 years from now. He is almost 31 and shortstops don’t age like wine.. They age like milk and his sell by date is rapidly approaching..

JoeBrady
11 years ago
Reply to  Curran

Don’t worry about it. I don’t see anyone forking over $20M for Tulo, let alone giving up top prospects for him.

$20M + 29/2 K/W + injured = lack of interest

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago

To be honest, I can’t see a less movable contract and I think you’re overreaching in your trade packages. He’s 30, meaning any team that trades for him is buying 3-4 years of decline on a guy who regularly gets injured and will probably end up DHing or playing 1B ala Nomar by the end of it. He has been worthless in the postseason even when he wasn’t hurt, so its not like a contender is going to get that final piece who stands up when it counts, like Papi – speaking of which, what’s HIS deadline trade value?

Anyway, if the Rockies can get rid of that $100M and use it the one thing they always need but never target for some reason – pitching – then that’s boon enough in my view. A legit prospect like Syndergaard straight up would be more than enough if no money was being added, if the Rockies want more then they’re going to be have take the money hit.

wildcard09
11 years ago

Papi would never be traded, although I do think this needs to be his last year. I get the feeling though that he’ll want to play one more, and the Sox (probably wisely) won’t give him the kind of deal he’ll want, and he could finish his career with another team.

Pastrami Ruben, Jr.
11 years ago
Reply to  wildcard09

It doesn’t need to be said that Ortiz’s in-game value is on the decline.

That said, I can’t imagine the Sox won’t try to keep him on as he tries to reach 500 HR (if he doesn’t reach this year, which is vaguely possible if he “gets hot”). If he performs to ROS projections….

Not to mention that front office priorities may not always be on ‘wins’ in-and-of-themselves. Ortiz gets fans into the seats and sells jerseys and so on; we might imagine a kind of backwards $/WAR situation where the off-field value of having Ortiz on the team could counterbalance his on-field (declining) performance. I am not at all familiar with the analysis that would need to be done to evaluate this, but if a certain number of Big Papi jerseys/bobbleheads/commercials, plus whatever immaterial value he might be assessed to have in dollars for the Red Sox brand, raises $__,(_)00,000 for the team….

wildcard09
11 years ago

Yeah I thought he was on a 1 year deal. Just looked it up and the Sox have 2 option years coming up starting at 10 mill each, and going up for PA thresholds, so it looks like they had anticipated this. I was just really hoping it wouldn’t come down to Ortiz demanding another 15 mill to play next year.

guest_54
11 years ago

” He has been worthless in the postseason . . .” Really? He’s played less than 20 games in the postseason. Too small of a sample size to judge how he might perform in future playoffs.

guest_54
11 years ago

“He has been worthless in the postseason even when he wasn’t hurt, so its not like a contender is going to get that final piece who stands up when it counts, like Papi – speaking of which, what’s HIS deadline trade value?” Really? He’s played less than 20 games in the postseason. Too small of a sample size to judge how he might perform in future playoffs.

Not Mr. Sullivan
11 years ago

“and with Jacoby Ellsbury as a recent precedent at $150+ million for an injury prone aging up-the-middle guy”

Allow me to direct this odd sentiment to a strong piece by one Mr. Sullivan on injury proneness: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/jacoby-ellsbury-and-injury-proneness/

JoeBrady
11 years ago

That one made me laugh also. Ellsbury is not a picture of great health, but most of his missed time was via collisions. There is absolutely no comparison between the two.

john
11 years ago

Just curious. But that seems a lot to take on all that salary for a slightly (currently) undervalue guy who is of injured and night not be a value next year, let alone the remainder of his contract. For the mets, as an example, wouldn’t it make more sense, cost about the same in prospects but less in money to trade with Milwaukee for Gomez and Segura, fix two positions, move cuddyer to the bench where he belongs and all have money going forward?

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  john

Segura would be a downgrade for the Mets, not an upgrade. Why would they want that? Gómez makes perfect sense for them, though. More sense, in fact, than Tulo does.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  paqza

Agree about Gomez.

Kyle
11 years ago

The Blue Jays giving up their top 2 starting pitching prospects to upgrade from Reyes to Tulowitzki at short is literally absurd.

Is it an upgrade? Absolutely. But shortstop is a wasteland at this point and if Reyes is healthy he’s still a top 5 talent at the position. Even the pre-season projections thought so. You don’t blow up your farm system AND your rotation depth — especially with Buehrle poised to retire and R.A. Dickey’s option next year looking questionable — to upgrade a position of strength from the fifth best to the best in baseball. The Blue Jays already have too many eggs in too few baskets, and this farcical suggestion would exaggerate that even further.

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

Uh, Reyes to Tulo is not “absolutely” an upgrade.

Kyle
11 years ago

Have you watched baseball in the last three years?

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

Yeah, lifelong NL players usually hit really well in the AL upon moving there! Riiiight…

Jose Reyes
11 years ago

‘precciate the support bro, but that tulo guy is one bad dude. He had almost twice as much WAR value as me last year, and the dude missed half the season! I aint got shit on that kind of production

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  Jose Reyes

Tulo’s career H/A splits:

959 OPS at home
815 OPS away

You’d probably be a .360 hitter in Denver, and you’re a better defender too.

Matt
11 years ago
Reply to  Jose Reyes

Forrest Gumption likes to look at the difference in splits instead of what the splits say.. like an OPS over 800 is bad because it’s so far from his home OPS

Matt
11 years ago
Reply to  Jose Reyes

Nearly everyone hits better at home – not just Rockies hitters.

safasdf
11 years ago
Reply to  Jose Reyes

Remember the cliff Holliday fell off when he left the Rockies! Oh wait…

Art Vandelay
11 years ago
Reply to  Jose Reyes

@Forrest Gumption: I can do that too. To wit:
Jose Reyes’ Home OPS = 807
Jose Reyes’ Away OPS = 741
I’m not saying he’s not a very good shortstop, but it’s ridiculous to say Tulo is not an upgrade.

My Neck and My Back
11 years ago
Reply to  Jose Reyes

I DO remember the cliff Holliday fell off when he left Colorado. It was called his time in Oakland, and he sucked.

He’s revived his career in St. Lou, but Holliday was terrible in Oakland. Not sure if it was the Coors Effect wearing off. Just don’t want anyone to forget how absolutely worthless Matt Holliday was during his stay in Oakland.

jpg
11 years ago

Uh yeah, Tulo is absolutely an upgrade over Reyes. In 2014, Tulo put up 5.3 WAR in 91 games. In 2013 and 2014 COMBINED, Reyes put up 5.6 WAR in 236 games. But yeah, Tulo to Reyes is a lateral move.

Josh TC
11 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

Congratulations on using ‘farcical’ by the way

Rockshu
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh TC

Thank you.

FMelius
11 years ago

What about the Twins?

I understand why it doesn’t make much sense this year, but – the Twins have the prospects to satisfy Colorado, they have a decade-long black hole at SS, and they badly need to convince fans that they actually intend to compete (again not this year, but soon). Add the fact that Tulo’s underpaid relative to production (which the Twins likely would never understand), and if I were Terry Ryan I’d work hard to make a deal.

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  FMelius

Because the Twins need to keep their prospects and not trade for an expensive, aging, injury-prone semi-star. They are close to being contenders again and blowing up their rebuild on someone like Tulo is not where they need to be spending $100+M, any and all 8-fig deals should be thrown at any of Price, Cueto, Greinke or Zimmermann.

Book_Worm
11 years ago
Reply to  FMelius

I definitely think this would be the wrong move for Minnesota. Who would you propose the Twins offer up? If COL wants pitching, they’re not going to be satisfied with any package that doesn’t include Berrios-plus.

Captian obvious
11 years ago
Reply to  Book_Worm

I could see it working tho say a meyers, gordon, stewart,and walker II deal. it might be enough. berrios is untouchable. He’s looking like a solid #2 if not an ace.

FMelius
11 years ago
Reply to  FMelius

I agree that the Twins ought to keep their prospects – most of them, anyway. But the fact of the matter is that the team CANNOT develop a strong middle infielder. They, more than most teams, would benefit from buying an elite (yes, injury-prone) SS.

The Twins have several SP prospects nearly ready for the majors. Aside from the fact that there’s only so much room in a starting 5, you can flip a coin as to whether any of them will ever dominate much less thrive near the top of a rotation.

In exchange for all of Tulo’s salary, the Rockies can start with Miguel Sano and 1 or 2 of the Twins’ AAA SPs. I don’t think that’s outlandish.

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  FMelius

Unless the Rockies are throwing in $50M, Sano is absolutely outlandish.

HelterSkelter
11 years ago

You’re trolling of this thread is what is outlandish

Forrest Gumption
11 years ago
Reply to  FMelius

Excuse me? How is posting stats and qualifying “in my opinion” considered trolling?

jpg
11 years ago

How have you been trolling? Hmm let’s see…

“To be honest, I can’t see a less movable contract and I think you’re overreaching in your trade packages.”

Did Ryan Howard die last night?

“He’s got a .297 OBP right now, that’s not hard to find”

Yeah because a bad five weeks to start a season takes precedence over a near decade long body of work.

“He has been worthless in the postseason even when he wasn’t hurt…”

Yeah because 63 PA is a large enough sample to deem him a choker.

“Uh, Reyes to Tulo is not “absolutely” an upgrade.”

I already addressed the stupidity of that statement above.

So either you’re trolling and just happen to really suck at it or you just have no clue. Which is it?

TKDCMember since 2016
11 years ago

I’d say if he’s trolling he’s pretty good at it. Look how worked up you got?

jpg
11 years ago

No TKDC, he sucks at it. An effective troll is one who says shit that, while dumb and mostly ridiculous, is at least somewhat defensible. That’s how everdiso and his clones can troll Red Sox fans and keep the back and forth going 30 comments deep.

Josh TC
11 years ago
Reply to  FMelius

FMelius – are you from St. Olaf?

CrazyPants
11 years ago

Yeah, not impressed with any of the proposals I’m seeing here. I think other teams could get involved like either Chicago team or even some dreaded division rivals. What about a deal around Chris Sale? ChisSox can basically replace him with Rodon.

Gai1997
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Sale in a deal for Tulo is ridiculous. No. That’s all I’ll say, no.

CrazyPants
11 years ago
Reply to  Gai1997

um ok. any particular reason?

me
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

“ChisSox can basically replace him with Rodon.”

Because having more than one Ace is the last thing you want.

Costanza
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Well that’s a pretty dopey comment. I guess anytime a good P is traded one could critique it. Point is the value back and the relative needs and assets of the team.

William
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

The guy who’s about as valuable as Tulo in on-field production, controlled through 2019, significantly younger, and being paid half the salary? Should they also throw in Abreu, then?

CrazyPants
11 years ago
Reply to  William

Why? There was talk last winter about dealing Sale. If not Tulo, then what would the ChiSox want for Sale?? #PROSPECTS?!

And likewise, a young quality ML SPer is probably a better get for Tulo than a package of prospects.

And none of which is to mention the Nats, who’ve more or less confirmed they’d be at the table of any Tulo trade negotiations.

William
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

The Rockies would give their left nut to make that deal.

What talk was there of dealing Sale? There’s not a single mention on MLBTR. If they’re dealing Sale, they’re rebuilding, not trying to win. What good is an even older, more expensive player to them?

At the very least, they want equal value. Sale is equal production, significantly younger, and paid a little over half as much; you could justifiably argue he’s twice as valuable as Tulo.

Costanza
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Normally I would argue that pitchers are more fragile but it’s Tulo… Still, it’s a matter of organizational need. Why would the Rox deal Tulo at all if it’s unlikely they can get equal value back?

A Sale – Tulo deal makes a lot of sense assuming the Rox put some dough into it and there would prob be other players involved. I think it makes a lot of sense on both sides.

Mike
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

lol

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

I can’t figure out how in the world this would work unless you take Castro and Bogelbach from the Cubs lol. We can’t give you high level pitching prospects and the one thing we have a plethora of is middle infielders. So I’ll go Castro, Vogelbach, and Alcantara. Otherwise no point in talking to the cubs

JoeBrady
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Sale = Rondon?

I have Rondon on my rotisserie team. Can’t wait to trade him for Sale.

Klof
11 years ago

And the Nats? They said today they want to be in consideration. What would their package look like?

NatsFan73
11 years ago
Reply to  Klof

Well Giolito is probably too much,but they could send Trea Turner back and that would be a nice SS prospect get for an immediate replacement. Several upside arms other than Giolito are in the system. Michael Taylor could be a Coors Field monster

Costanza
11 years ago
Reply to  NatsFan73

The Rox already have a very good SS prospect who isn’t far away.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  NatsFan73

Turner would not be an immediate replacement. He’s several years away.

Noah Baron
11 years ago
Reply to  NatsFan73

If you think you’re going to get Tulo without giving up Giolito you’re delusional. If the Nats had more farm system depth, with a few top 100 prospects, it might be possible, but their farm system just isn’t good enough to pull it off.

M
11 years ago
Reply to  Noah Baron

To bad Cole and Taylor are both top 100 prospects. Nats could certainly pull off a deal including 2 of Turner/Cole/Taylor

rustydudeMember since 2021
11 years ago

Would the trade of Griffey for Cameron, Perez and Tomko be a good comparison for this one? Mind you, that trade worked out pretty well for the Mariners because Cameron turned out to be quite a bit better than forecasted, I believe.

I also think this trade might be comparable because although Griffey’s contract had 1 year remaining, it was clear that he was going to sign a below market long term deal with the Reds. That gets us closer to apples v apples.

Kevin
11 years ago
Reply to  rustydude

That trade is often pointed to as one of the most one-sided ever. Griffey was a decent piece for the Reds, but Cameron was immediately better than Junior, and cost them millions less. The Reds got hosed on that deal.

Pr
11 years ago

i thought Moncada was considered pretty close to top 10 prospect, no?

AG
11 years ago
Reply to  Pr

Yes, the post is saying that he is and his contract provides an approximation of value if there was a free market for top 10 prospect talent.

Roger
11 years ago
Reply to  AG

If you’re right, then this post has an errant “not” in an important place.

Unthought_Known
11 years ago

I hope he gets traded simply because I’m curious to see what he actually fetches. If you’re a Rockies fan like Curran above, these packages look light. After all, Tulowitzki is the face of your franchise, he’s the best SS in baseball while healthy, and he has a few more years on his contract. Why would you trade him for anything less than an elite package?

If you’re a Mets fan though, there’s no way in hell that you trade Syndergaard, Rosario and Matz while taking on Tulo’s entire contract. Matz, for example, is ranked #65 above. Baseball America listed him at #33 though. Add in that he’s been lights out this year (in the worst pitching environment in the minor leagues), and they will not offer him up as if he’s a #65 prospect.

So you have two fan bases that are unwilling to make a deal based on the same names. I’m interested to see how it all plays out when it’s between GMs, rather than fan bases.

CrazyPants
11 years ago

I’m a big Mets fan and I can assure you the FO doesn’t have the cajones to deal away either Noah or Matz, much less both. They are grooming their own SSs and there is little pressure to win from ownership. Alderson literally has as much job security as any GM in baseball.

As I said above, I can see a deal of Tulo for Sale as much more realistic.

robdeer
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

“As I said above, I can see a deal of Tulo for Sale as much more realistic.”

and that’s why they call you CrazyPants

Ivan Grushenko
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Why do they need boxes to trade people?

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

Of course they don’t have the cajones. That’s not even a real word. At least get your insult right.

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

I can’t see the Sale thing. Why would the Sox do that?!

Ckjahnds
11 years ago

Right, and if you’re a Yankees fan, you’re excited because this will be the year that all 6 of your aging highly paid players put it together.

I think it’s reasonable for a fan of a team to feel that way, but it doesn’t mean it reflects reality.

Objective analysis > Subjective opinion

SandyK
11 years ago

Matz, Rosario, and a lesser piece or two makes a lot of sense. Syndergaard ought to be untouchable.

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  SandyK

Matz is pretty close to as good as Syndergaard. Similar stuff but better makeup. His fastball has less velo but more movement and his breaking stuff is actually superior. The Mets would be better off moving something like Niese+Molina instead of either of Matz or Syndergaard. The suggestion that the Mets would consider offering both is also ludicrous.

John
11 years ago

I actually thought an offseason deal of Wheeler and Thor (which I believe was bantied about on some trade rumor sites) was a decent one. However, as a Mets fan watching this team for the last, well, 3 weeks, they are much farther away than 1 player from making the playoffs. They gave themselves a nice buffer sure, but they’ll be out of first by the end of the weekend, and probably back to .500 by the end of May, which is where all the projection systems had them anyway. At this point, I don’t see how its worth trading that much future value for that much money when they already have Cuddyer, Granderson and Wright as sunk costs.

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  John

Well obviously they’re more than one player from making the playoffs. 11 of their starting 25 is on the DL including 2 of their best 3 hitters – Wright and d’Arnaud. If you add Wright and d’Arnaud, that’s obviously a much better squad.

Mike Trout
11 years ago

Tulo is a legit stud with a reasonable contract. But he’s averaged 88 games over the last 3 years. Two out of 8 full seasons in the bigs with 150 games played. He’s on the wrong side of 30. His career OPS at home is .959 but .815 on the road, so adjust your projections accordingly. I can see a high-revenue club taking on the full value of the contract, but they would be crazy to give up anything more than a PTBNL.

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike Trout

He’s also put up >5 WAR each of the past two seasons and in 6 of his 8. I see you’re cherry picking games played without actually looking at what he did in those seasons.

Danny Middaugh
11 years ago

If I’m a GM of any MLB team, I don’t think I’d trade any blue chippers for Tulo. Maybe the exception being the Rockies eating all of the contract.

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  Danny Middaugh

Blue chippers is relative. What does that mean, top 20 prospects or so?

kid
11 years ago

I understand that this article is framed in the context of “Troy Tulowitzki – Premiere MLB Shortstop”, because that’s what he’s been over his career. However, even as he presumably loses the requisite athleticism to play SS, he’d still be pretty damn valuable at other defensive positions, right? I mean, his skills – excellent plate discipline, contact and power – are rare for any position, not just at SS. It’s not unreasonable to think that he would still be a 3+ WAR player due to his bat even after his days at SS are over.

Ckjahnds
11 years ago
Reply to  kid

In 9+ seasons, he has generated 110 offensive runs, so call it 12 runs per season. And note this is optimistic, because it includes an assumption that he will stay as healthy as when we was younger.

If he’s average defensively and plays 2b/3b like 2014 Matt Carpenter (for the ease of comparison, not because I think he’s like him) you’re looking at a 2.5-3.5 win player.

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  Ckjahnds

You probably could have answered with “yes”

Roger
11 years ago

Really surprised this post isn’t already deluged with Mets fans screaming it, but I am pretty sure Syndergaard is absolutely off the table for a deal like this (and that he ought to be). I will not claim to be a perfect reader of Sandy Alderson’s mind but it would surprise me tremendously to see him dealt, while I’d be unsurprised to see virtually any other arm from the farm system, perhaps along with Plawecki and/or Checchini, in a package for Tulowitzki.

Zen Madman
11 years ago
Reply to  Roger

I think Syndergaard is a reasonable player to be involved in a trade like this, but Syndergaard AND Matz AND Rosario seems absurd. Syndergaard is too close to being one of those top 10 prospects to throw in the team’s second-best pitching prospect, Matz, who is the reason a guy like Syndergaard might be expendable.

John
11 years ago
Reply to  Roger

I agree. I imagine if Sandy were willing to trade Thor for Tulo, it would have happened already… I am not saying that pitching prospects should ever be off limits – because they shouldn’t – but I think Thor is pretty untouchable for Sandy.

Dovif
11 years ago
Reply to  Roger

If fangraph was using surplus value syndergaard probably have more surplus value than tulo already. That would be a dream for the rockies

Jeff
11 years ago

If the Mets have to give up Syndergaard AND Matz, I’m out. The negatives other commenters have pointed out are real. If he weren’t massively injury prone, then maybe that package…

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Jeff

I wouldn’t give up Thor OR Matz for Tulo. The idea that they would even consider trading both plus Rosario is absolutely absurd.

Tulo is for a team that has a year or two left in them before age gets to them ( the 2011 Phillies come to mind ). Of the current teams in that category, without a great SS, Detroit comes to mind right away.

I’d say NY also, but they will be after pitching first; and I don’t think a team that went out of their way to hit Jeter 2nd all last year just as a courtesy to their fans would di2re2pect the captain by putting someone great there so quickly.

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  Jeff

Pretty sure a package with either could get it done. Would have to give them more quantity with the rest.

Bryce Harper
11 years ago

My team says they want in, what are our chances with our prospects?

Trea Turner
11 years ago
Reply to  Bryce Harper

If I end up a future Rockie stuck in the Pads org…

And that Mets proposal is a ridiculous overpay.

state the obvious
11 years ago

castro, vogelbach, almora, pierce johnson for tulo… starting ss for half the price and 2 top 100 prospects. rockies most likely say no, but i think its a fair trade.

CrazyPants
11 years ago

If they are going to trade him, you’d think they’d want more pitching back. They have a pretty solid pipeline of young position players.

state the obvious
11 years ago
Reply to  CrazyPants

in these trades getting the most talent back should be priority number 1 over specific needs. but thats just me.

vivalajeter
11 years ago

With several teams in the market, they can probably get a similar caliber package from more than one organization. In that case, they may as well consider their organizational needs.

If one team offers an offensive-based package well beyond other teams, then that’s different. But I don’t see that happening.

Garrett
11 years ago

Normally I agree – the Rox are in a position where they just need talent period. Weaknesses throughout the entire organization. That said, their ballpark is extreme. Building through FA is a necessary evil and the only pitchers signing up in CO are those on their last deal or those that are overpaid/unwanted.

If I’m the Rangers/Rox I know that I throw a disproportionate amount of money/effort drafting and acquiring minor league pitching.

Cub fan
11 years ago

Cubs have a durable All-Star shortstop they’re paying…what? $7 million a year? So they offer him, plus 3 quality prospects, for an injury-prone, almost over-the-hill Tulo making $20 million per? All of this after the Cubs just robbed the A’s blind last July for Castro’s eventual replacement (Russell)?

What in the world have you been smoking? And it’s the ROCKIES that say no to that deal in your mind?

Yours is the most surreal post in this whole thread. And that’s saying something.

Adam
11 years ago

Please leave either Pierce or Almora off that list. Throw in Alcantara.

Dovif
11 years ago
Reply to  Adam

Alcantara and baez are failed prospects they were horrible

Sandy Kazmir
11 years ago

Pull your head out of your ass and you might see that the Rays have a very nice system.

bpdelia
11 years ago
Reply to  Sandy Kazmir

Really? Historically sure but they are looking pretty middle of the pack about now. Remember that EVERY team has high upside potential stars in the low minors. Every team. A great system is made by how many of those guys keep the shine once they get to AA and above. My favorite team, the yankees, is loaded with super high ceiling guys all the way from the DOminican league to High A. And they have two excellent prospects at AA and above as well as a slew of interesting potential regulars in the high minors. ANd they are a consensus middle of the pack system.

THe Rays have LESS than the yankees at nearly every level. SO it follows that the Rays would be at the bottom of the middle of the pack.

And they basically just graduated their consensus best prospect so…

Zach
11 years ago

Wait, to clarify, are you saying that for the Pirates it would take a package of all those guys (Glasnow, Meadows, and Taillon) or just one of those guys as a centerpiece?

Because if the former, hell no.

Andre the Angels Fan
11 years ago

I’m sorry, but personally, I want no part of Tulo on my team if he costs anything even halfway decent, let alone a top prospect or two. His future just doesn’t appear bright at all, he’s got Albert Pujols or Jose Reyes written all over him. I say he averages 2.5 WAR for the next 5 years. Maybe one or two years are decent in the 3+ range but others are just as likely to be 1.5. For all intents and purposes, that’s practically worthless.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
11 years ago

Tulo is 30. Here’s what Albert Pujols did from age 30 on:

30: 6.8 WAR
31: 4.0 WAR
32: 3.6
33: 0.6
34: 2.9

3.5 win per season average, and that includes the worst season of his career when he was injured. Remove that season (I know… I know) and he averages 4.1 wins per season.

Being Albert Pujols from age 30 on ain’t so bad.

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Not to mention that Pujols is owed about $70 million more than Tulo.

Dovif
11 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

3.5 war is around $20 mil a year. That is very little surplus value. Syndergaard would be an overpay in that scenario

tz
11 years ago

Didn’t someone propose a three-way based upon Tulo to the Mets, Syndegaard to Boston, and Bogaerts to Colorado?

I’m not saying that’s perfectly balanced, but it seems like a decent starting base.

Phillies113
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

I think I like this idea most, as it benefits all the teams involved. A little tweaking with some minor prospects, maybe some cash heading one way or another, and this could work out fairly well.

Roger
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

On its face I don’t see what the benefit would be to the Mets or the Rockies for getting Boston involved in the deal if it looked like this. The reason you’d do a 3-way deal like this would be that the teams’ valuations or needs differed significantly — say, it’d benefit the Mets to involve them if Boston would give up Bogaerts for a significantly less-than-Syndergaard package (as I think they likely would) or it’d benefit the Rockies if they were looking for position-player talent instead of pitching (which I do not think is the case).

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

I don’t think the Mets are dealing Thor or Matz. deGrom is a question mark, so is Wheeler. Colon is 42 and Gee and Niese are good but not great. Harvey is the only obvious #1, and he’s fresh off of Tommy John. The likelihood of the Mets dealing their best 2 pitching prospects is very, very low.

With Wheeler out until mid next year, the Mets are realistically gunning for 2017 as their all-in year, next year if they stay healthy. This year, forget it. 84 wins tops, with or without Tulo.

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

The Mets are a Wild Card contender right now, with around a 40% playoff chance. Why wouldn’t 2016 be the year to go all in?

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  paqza

All but 4 teams are wild card contenders right now, so saying a team is a wild card contender says nothing.

They don’t look like a team that will be within 5 games of the wildcard by Aug 31st. That’s just my opinion, but they just don’t.

What they do have is 5 potential all-star pitchers ( Harvey, deGrom, Wheeler, Thor, Matz ), but only one of those is there yet. Wheeler won’t be there until 2017, and it’s hard to see Thor or Matz being all-star caliber before then. Colon will be gone by next year, and Gee and Niese are good but not great.

Outside of Familia, their bullpen is below average, and they have a below average offense and defense ( despite Lagares ).

The only way they get this to work this year is to bring up Matz, keep Thor up, hope Montero and Gee recovers, and put 2 of their starters in the bullpen. They need to be top 3 in runs allowed to contend, and their best hope for the future is in those young arms.

Trading them would be lunacy.

Dovif
11 years ago
Reply to  paqza

You do know their bullpen has the 3rd best Fip and are missing Parnell, black, mejia and their best leftie and their offense are missing wright and darnald

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  tz

Then Hanley plays SS for the Sox? I know he’s been awful in LF but I’m still not sure the Sox want any part of that.

Willywater88
11 years ago

Anytime a player with Tulo’s track record (both performance and health) is debated, we are going to have a wide range of opinions on his value. You mention that Tulo is worth $50-$60M more than his current contract and valuing his free agent worth at 5 years/$150M. That’s pretty insane for a player that will decline in performance and likely in health (for the most part players do not get better or healthier after age 30).

To tell you the truth, I would be hesitant to sign Tulo to a 5 year/$98M deal at all and if a team is not willing to give him that contract in the open market, then he essentially has negative value to them.

Tuscan Chicken
11 years ago

According to Cot’s, Tulo gets $2mm in a roster bonus if he’s traded. How does that work? Would that mean 5/100? Or is that something the Rox pay, or is that not in play?

pft
11 years ago

League average hitter away from Coors, league average defensively at SS in recent years. WAR inflated due to middle IF bias from position adjustments. Pass on Tulo who is showing signs of entering his declining years already. Maybe if the Rockies don’t ask for much you can consider it, but most if not all of his surplus value is gone at that salary.

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  pft

That’s not even close to the truth. Tulo is the best hitting SS on the road in baseball.

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2026
11 years ago
Reply to  pft

I’m having difficulty finding these league average numbers of which you speak. Perhaps you can enlighten us all by providing some evidence.

Nick
11 years ago

No mention of the Nationals with their looming SS hole after Desmond’s departure?

paqza
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick

Also their aggressive trading.

RobM
11 years ago

He was highly injury prone in his 20s. He’s now reached 30. Just had hip labrum surgery, with his true talent level no longer a given post the surgery. He’d be moving from Coors. In a SSS view, both his offense and defense are showing some decline.

This is not meant as a knock on Tulo, but any acquiring GM will have these points in his mind, and that will depress his trade value, which will make him hard to move from the Rockies side.

As for the Yankees, they can’t be ruled out entirely, but I’d be very surprised if they’re players. I could see them parting with Severino and prospects below the Judge and Bird level, but why would the Rox do that kind of deal? They wouldn’t, and if the price dropped to that level more teams would step in. I don’t see the Yankees adding any substantial payroll obligations until after the next CBA and several of their high-priced deals are off the books. That’s 2017/2018 range. My guess is they’ll piece together the 2016 team similar to what they did for 2015.

Called Shot
11 years ago

What about the Giants? I could see them moving Tulo to 3rd to minimize the SS abuse. 3B is a glaring need with Panda gone. Their best prospects are AA and A level pitchers. They have the money. That move could push them over the top for a repeat WS appearance.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Called Shot

I think they like Crawford, and I think recent history shows they have a point.

Shortstops, man
11 years ago

Troy Tulowitzki kind of sucks.

Garrett
11 years ago

I just wouldn’t do it. Period. He is far too risky for me to take on unless I’m the Yankees/Dodgers and have unlimited funds and can go over the cap without a 2nd thought.

There certainly is a chance that Tulo is well worth his contract. There are plenty of scenarios where injuries and regression push him into being a 2 WAR/year player over the next 5 years. Honestly, I put the odds at 50/50 as to whether he’s worth his current contract. Throw in raiding a farm system and there is no chance I’m trading for him.

Colorado can follow in the footsteps of Philly. Overvalue their talent, wait for the talent to become less valuable (or completely worthless in the case of Lee), and then wonder why their team isn’t any better in 2018 than it was in 2015.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Garrett

I’ll put the likely teams as Detroit and Baltimore. I’d say NY also, but that would be di2re2pectful.

Nick
11 years ago

Rumors are that the Wilpons will not and cannot take on Tulo’s contract so there has been no interest from the Mets.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick

I wonder if they would be willing to take on Omar Vizquel’s contract. Close call.

The Truth
11 years ago

You guys would make terrible GM’s.

lol

Seriously,

Are you all agent trolls for Tulo or something?

Let Colorado hold the bag is what I say.

Move on.

Sano? LMAO

Thor? Matz? Double LMAO

This Tulo guy is borderline forgettable in 3-5 years. I already forgot about him this year.

jrubyMember since 2026
11 years ago
Reply to  The Truth

See, now , *this* is a good example of bad trolling

francis
11 years ago

There’s a comedy routine in here somewhere …

“I’ll offer you Betts for your SS”

“Tulo ?”

“Ok, I’ll throw in Jackie Bradley Jr.”

“For Tulo ?”

“Really ? What if we work in Tampa Bay and send you one of their pitchers.”

“Moore ?”

“What ?”

“Moore.”

“For who ?”

“Tulo”

“Moore ?”

RJ
11 years ago

While everyone knows Tulo is injury-prone, it’s worth really digesting that he has averaged 88 games per season over the past 3 years, in what should be the prime of his career. Given thatplus the significant home/away split he has shown plus the decline in production you expect from ages 31-36, personally I’d be hesitant to provide any significant value beyond assuming his contract.

Redbeard
11 years ago

So Tulo got injured again yesterday. A bucket of baseballs and a $100 bill isn’t sounding too bad now. Surely all large upside prospects have just been wiped from the table. Go 2020 Rox!

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Redbeard

Purely speculation but I guess that Tulo demanded a trade, and mgmt said something like “not only no way, you’ll go out and tell the press that you don’t want to be traded”.

So Tulo went out and did what he was told and then it just happened that he felt some tightness in his quad the very same night.

pft
11 years ago
Reply to  francis

I don’t rule that out. Manny Ramirez did the same thing to get out of Boston. No evidence though, so have to give him the benefit of the doubt

pft
11 years ago

His numbers away from Coors have been in decline for 3 years now, so I am not sure he is much better than league average hitter away from Coors, which is still pretty good for a SS. Defensively he has also slipped to about average. Add to that his problems staying on the field (JD Drew anyone?), and entering his declining years north of 30 and I don’t see how a team gives up much in return. Its not a given he is underpaid, and it may well be his surplus value for the duration of his contract is nil

Call him a 4 WAR player in 2016, and knock off 0.5 WAR for each of the next 5 years and you have a guy who will be making 98 million for 15 WAR (if he can stay fairly healthy), which is about market rate, meaning no surplus value. Maybe payroll inflation and increase in $/WAR make it a bit easier to swallow, but I would want the Rockies to eat some salary before I parted with a top 20 prospect.

For the Red Sox, I might do a Boegarts for Tulo straight up at full salary, but w/o the Rockies taking on some salary that’s it . Yankees are not going near that salary as Hal is bent on 189 down the road. Mets? LOL. Dodgers looking to drop salary the next few years. Not a big market if they don’t eat salary, not if they want a decent return .

M
11 years ago
Reply to  pft

Your being wayyy to harsh on Tulo. Hes consistently been a 5-6 WAR player his entire carrer (including the last 2 years) So calling him a 4 WAR player isnt accurate.

Also, the home/away splits are way to “hyped”. The air levels at Coors vs a different stadium are different so naturally any player is going to play worse at other parks when they play 80 games at Coors. Once Tulo or any other Rockie plays in a regular home park they will get used to the air levels. Just look at Matt Holliday. Saying Tulo is only a “league average hitter” outside Coors is absurd. If he gets traded he should hit much better than his “road splits” show.

Also, getting out of the high altitude should help Tulo stay healthy. Playing 80 games at Coors is extremely hard for a middle infielder like Tulo

The verdict? The Rockies have an extremely valuable trade chip in Tulo. Hes without question the best shortstop in baseball on a below market valued contract. He has slightly more trade value than Hamels due to the natural “need” for shorstops and the current surplus of pitching. These trade proposlas are very fair, outside maybe the Pirates.

Johnny Ringo
11 years ago

Tulo has been a great player, but I think if teams are looking for shortstop upgrades, they will be looking to the Cubs this year, not the Rockies.

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Johnny Ringo

Or LA

JoeBrady
11 years ago

Here’s my call. As RS fan, and a long-time Yankee hater, I hope that the NYY trade their top three prospects for Tulo.

M
11 years ago

So something like Bogaerts + Johnson for Tulo or Bogaerts + Erod for Tulo and 30mil?

As a sox fan, Id think about that. More or less would prefer to keep Erod out of the deal

Db
11 years ago

Here is the deal. Tulo and Rosario for montero, plawecki, cecchini/Rosario and Molina. Rocks pay Rosario’s contract.

Ben D
11 years ago

This post and comment stream illustrates exactly why the Rockies’ GM knows that trading Tulo is a net loss. Looking at his splits over the last two years, Tulo is Jhonny Peralta at best, only with more injuries and potentially further into his decline. However, Rockies fans think he’s the Bryce Harper of the infield.
No way can the Rockies get anywhere near what their fans think they should get. Far better to keep him around so your fans don’t turn on you.

Tanned Tom
11 years ago

With his injury history it seems overly optimistic to call Tulowitzki a bargain. IF he stays healthy and IF he continues to produce at past levels… Two very big ifs. Gonna be hard to find a good match up, as few teams really want to part with upper prospects to add an aging, highly priced, injury prone player. Better to find a uneasy GM who needs to win this year to keep his job. Perhaps a call to Jack Z. is in order?

Jesse
11 years ago

If you’re the rockies, don’t you want to think about a wilmer flores deal? He’s got the iso that will play in coors. If you put him in the right run environment, his bat is going to play.

Dave StudemanMember since 2017
11 years ago

From the Mets’ perspective, Thor is probably a 2 WAR improvement over Gee, for very low cost for the next six years. Tulo is probably a 3 WAR improvement over Flores, for much cost over the next six years. They’re both high risk (pitcher vs. injury history) but at least you’re not stuck with a multi-million dollar contract if Thor goes down.

I guess I’m saying I’d maybe trade Thor for Tulo straight up, and I’m not even sure I’d do that. (this is assuming the Rockies don’t throw money into the deal). I would trade Matz for Tulo straight up, and I think that would be a fair deal, for all of the above reasons. I’m also pretty sure the Rockies wouldn’t see it that way.