Verlander and the 200 Win Club
On Sunday, Justin Verlander played the stopper, withstanding a trio of homers by the A’s to grind out 5.1 unspectacular but much needed innings to help the slumping Astros regain sole possession of first place atop the AL West. It certainly wasn’t an outing fit for hanging in a museum, but the fact that it was Verlander’s 200th career victory did significantly increase the likelihood that his own likeness will hang in Cooperstown one day. While only three out of the 12 starting pitchers the BBWAA has elected since 1992 finished with fewer than 300 wins (2011 honoree Bert Blyleven plus 2015 honorees Pedro Martinez and John Smoltz), only one starter with fewer than 200 wins has been elected since 1956, namely Sandy Koufax (1972).
At the moment, Verlander, Bartolo Colon (247 wins), and CC Sabathia (244) are the only active pitchers with at least 200 wins. Zack Greinke (184) is about a year away from the mark, while Jon Lester (172), Félix Hernández (168), Max Scherzer (157), Cole Hamels (155), and Clayton Kershaw (150) will need several years. As for 300 wins, who knows when we’ll see another. The careers of both the 45-year-old Colon and the 38-year-old Sabathia are on their last legs, almost literally. For as iconic as Colon is, he’s also a replacement-level pitcher at this point. Sabathia, though still effective, has mulled retirement, and his arthritic right knee, which requires regular injections for maintenance, recently drove him to the disabled list yet again.
Given the sort of analysis that appears at this site, chances are that you don’t care much about starting pitcher wins — and you shouldn’t, as there are better ways to measure pitcher performance, whether you’re focusing on run prevention or the component skills that underly it (e.g., the Baseball-Reference and FanGraphs versions of WAR). I don’t care much about pitcher wins, either. In the context of pondering the Hall of Fame, however — which, remarkably, is part of my job — the topic is unavoidable, particularly when focusing upon this current generation of players for whom round-numbered milestones beyond 200 wins seem increasingly remote.
Over the past few decades, the job of the starter has evolved alongside our tools for understanding baseball. We see with greater clarity that those precious Ws are less a measure of one man’s intestinal fortitude and more the product of adequate offensive, defensive, and bullpen support. We also appreciate that the movements towards fewer complete games (due to the rise of bullpen specialists), fewer pitches (in the service of lowering injury risks), and fewer innings (in light of the third-time-through-the-order effect as well as the aforementioned factors) have made those Ws increasingly rare in what I’ve previously called the workload constraint era. Right now, in this Year of Our Opener Two Thousand Eighteen, the job of the starting pitcher appears particularly precarious.
Via our splits, which go back to 1974, we can trace the recent erosion of the starting pitcher’s stature via the gradual decline in innings per start and the decreased frequency with which starters are credited with wins:

Only once in the past 20 years have pitchers topped 6.0 innings per start (2011), but as recently as 2014, they were at 5.97 per start. Over the past five seasons, both that average and the rate of wins per start (35.1% circa 2014) have fallen at a nearly identical rate of 9.4%. The three-percentage-point drop in the latter category amounts to the disappearance of about one win per 32-start season. The rate hovered in the 35-38% range for most of the 1974-2014 period, but we’re now around 32%.
For as much as I advocate focusing upon advanced statistics — particularly by means of WAR and my JAWS system — instead of win totals within Hall of Fame discussions, the reality is that the W will still be with us for a while in that context. Even with the elections of Martinez and Smoltz, the fates of Mike Mussina (270 wins) and Curt Schilling (216) remain unresolved in part due to a certain faction of the electorate that is resistant to voting for pitchers who fall short of the 300-win threshold, at least when unaccompanied by Cy Young awards. This winter, we’ll see how they handle the late Roy Halladay, with his 203 wins and two Cys.
Back to Verlander and his active peers, it’s rare for the majors to include such a small number of 200-game winners — rare but hardly unprecedented. Thanks to some data from Baseball-Reference’s Sean Forman, here’s an historical chart:

From 2010 to -12, Jamie Moyer and Andy Pettitte were the only active 200-win pitchers save for a two-week period at the end of 2011 when Tim Wakefield reached the milestone, then retired. In 1995 and -96, Dennis Martinez — whose record for wins among Latin America-born pitchers Colon recently broke — was the only active 200-game winner. Before that, one has to dial back to the 1967-1973 period, when there were anywhere from one to three such pitchers active. The 1946-1955 period also featured three or fewer, and so on.
On the other hand, the 1978-1983 period featured 10 or 11 such pitchers, including six (Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Don Sutton) who would reach 300 and Cooperstown. The 2007 season featured the all-time high of 12 such pitchers: Roger Clemens (354), Greg Maddux (347), Tom Glavine (303), Randy Johnson (284), Mussina (250), David Wells (239), Jamie Moyer (230), Schilling (216), Kenny Rogers (210), Martinez (209), Smoltz (207), and Pettitte (201).
In considering the potential rarity of Verlander’s feat going forward, I asked our in-house projectionist, ZiPS-master Dan Szymborski, to run some projections showing the odds of today’s starters reaching 200, 250, and 300 wins. Dan did so, but in our conversations in the aftermath, we both agreed that the resulting estimates look a bit high. Operating as it does with decades of historical precedent in mind, the ZiPS machine isn’t sensitive enough to this current moment in decreasing workloads to be as pessimistic as I am, and rewiring it on a moment’s notice to suit my perceptions wasn’t an option. Thus I suggest taking these numbers with a grain or two of salt:
| Pitcher | Age | Total | 200 Wins | 250 Wins | 300 Wins |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bartolo Colon | 45 | 247 | 100% | 98% | 0% |
| CC Sabathia | 37 | 244 | 100% | 98% | 29% |
| Justin Verlander | 35 | 200 | 100% | 51% | 29% |
| Zack Greinke | 34 | 184 | 97% | 48% | 21% |
| Jon Lester | 34 | 172 | 91% | 43% | 12% |
| Felix Hernandez | 32 | 168 | 31% | 12% | 5% |
| Max Scherzer | 33 | 157 | 87% | 40% | 16% |
| Cole Hamels | 34 | 155 | 51% | 12% | 1% |
| Clayton Kershaw | 30 | 150 | 83% | 67% | 31% |
| Ervin Santana | 35 | 149 | 30% | 19% | 0% |
| Adam Wainwright | 36 | 147 | 5% | 0% | 0% |
| David Price | 32 | 140 | 50% | 14% | 2% |
| Rick Porcello | 29 | 133 | 73% | 39% | 7% |
| Johnny Cueto | 32 | 125 | 41% | 12% | 1% |
| Gio Gonzalez | 32 | 124 | 45% | 12% | 0% |
| Madison Bumgarner | 28 | 108 | 47% | 20% | 9% |
| Chris Sale | 29 | 103 | 80% | 45% | 26% |
| Jake Arrieta | 32 | 97 | 25% | 2% | 0% |
| Corey Kluber | 32 | 91 | 30% | 7% | 0% |
| Stephen Strasburg | 29 | 90 | 47% | 13% | 2% |
Dan supplied me with a list of every active pitcher with at least a 50% chance at 150 wins; apparently, James Shields (36, 143 wins) falls below that threshold. I’ve limited the display to pitchers who already have at least 90 wins in the bank, and will save the odds of the pitchers further away — such as 24-year-old Luis Severino (38 wins) and 26-year-old Carlos Martinez (52 wins) — for another day.
Roughly speaking, ZiPS estimates that our current crop of pitchers will yield two 300-game winners, eight 250-game winners, and 16 200-game winners, all of which seem like a lot, but dial back to 2007 and the active ranks included four pitchers who would get to at least 300 wins, seven who would win at least 250, and 19 who would win at least 200, including Verlander, who at that point had totaled just 35 wins. It will take more than a decade to get a full return from this particular precinct, by which point we’ll probably be talking about how much better pitcher Florps are than WAR and JAWS.
The odds suggest that Kershaw, Sabathia, Sale, and Verlander and all have similar chances of reaching 300. In light of what we know about Sabathia’s stance on retirement, he almost certainly doesn’t belong in that group, but the ZiPS machine doesn’t read the headlines. The other three pitchers’ chances might be slimmer than these projections, as well. Verlander, who’s on pace to finish the season with 204 wins, would need to continue averaging 16 wins a year for another six seasons (2019-24, his age-36 to -41 seasons) to reach 300, which seems like a longshot. Kershaw would need nearly 15 wins a year over the next decade to reach the mark in his age-40 season, and Sale, who’s currently on the DL for shoulder inflammation (gulp) would need about 18 a year for 11 years to reach the mark in his age-40 season. Anyone reaching the milestone might need to pitch to 44 or 45, à la the Big Unit, to nose over the line.
On the other hand, ZiPS gives Greinke, Kershaw, Lester, Sale, Scherzer, and even Porcello very good odds at reaching 200 wins, but the news is comparatively dismal with regards to Hernández (but then we suspected as much), and even Price’s odds relative to those of his Boston staffmates seem quite low. There’s a lot more to be said about these projections, enough that I may revisit this data set soon.
For now, though, the take-home is that 200 wins remains a pretty impressive feat in this day and age, even given what we know about its imperfect relationship with pitcher skill and value. But even with no other imminent arrival in that particular club, it’s too early to place it on the endangered species list. Verlander is the first of a coming wave of hurlers who will make their runs at Cooperstown not only on the basis of 200-plus wins but also 3,000 strikeouts (he needs 361) and a high JAWS mark relative to his era if not above the standard (he’s at 52.9, where the average starter is at 61.8; see here). It’s just going to take a while for it all to come into focus.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
He’s in in my book…
Really down votes? People seriously don’t think he is in? He has the period of dominance, the career WAR, the notoriety, and the bonus playoff resume of a no doubt HOF, IMO. He has the same resume as Halladay, who people think will get in easily.
I assume over the next 10 years the voters will adjust to new standards for modern starting pitchers and he’ll get in easily.
Makes me think that Johan pitched in the wrong era, if only by 5 or so years off. Halladay was going to be the first pitcher of this new generation of non-300 game winning pitchers in a few years or so, that is until his sad passing. Guys like Pettite, Schilling, Mussina, and Johan I think will and should be considered for the HOF in 5 or so seasons, but right now the old guard just won’t let the lack of wins go.
Whether you’re right or wrong (and I agree, I suspect he’ll make it to Cooperstown), I wish everyone were a little less concerned with whether the commentariat really really likes them or not…not entirely directed at you by any means, we just see more and more earnest pleas for upvotes it seems.
If you have a good case, state it. If it ends up at +5 or -5, who cares?
While it would be great for HOF voters to understand that wins are not a good stat, a good first step would be to at least let go of 300 as the benchmark. Really, all round number bench marks are pretty stupid. Whatever you think of someone like Dale Murphy’s HOF case, the fact that he hit 398 home runs instead of 400 should not play a role. Verlander will not likely get to 300 wins, but he will likely get kind of close, and hopefully the old school voters that still hold a lot of sway will at least lighten up their stances so that guys with 270 wins, like Mussina, can get in. Luckily, it looks like they will at least do that.
and if you’re a benchmark or bust guy, you have to bend yourself into a pretzel to vote for David Ortiz (who, let’s be real, wouldn’t be making the hall if he played in Tampa)
Kershaw with a 31% chance of 300 wins? Given that he’s averaging 15 wins a year he’d need 10 more years to get 300. Unfortunately with how his body is breaking down- he’s probably never going to get those 10 years.
Even more comical IMO is the number ZIPS gives Sale. He’s at 103 wins right now at age 29. Zips gives him a 26% chance of 300. Sorry but that’s just crazy talk. He’s got IMO more of a chance to finish with less than 200 wins than he does finishing with 300 wins.
That’s why Kerhsaw’s number is at 31%- by definition, that means that, as you said, “he’s probably never going to get those 10 years.” A 1/3 shot is an accurate representation, I think.
As for Sale, I don’t know.
Do you really think it’s a 1/3 shot for Kershaw to last 10 more years? I sure don’t. 2016-18 he’s had only 67 starts so even if he gets 7 more that’s not even an average of 25 per season. He’s had 36 wins last 3 years- so even if he gets 6 more this year that’s only 14 per year. It feels like he should be at maybe 10% chance of 300 and only like a 50% chance of even 250 wins.
Player growth isn’t linear, and Wins obviously aren’t very predictable.
Roger Clemens won 40 games between ’93-’96 before winning 41 between ’97-’98 in his age 34 and 35 seasons. He then won 121 more games to get all the way to 354 by the time he was 44.
Clemens didn’t have nearly the same injury concerns that Kershaw has now, and the culture was different then, obviously. But the author states clearly, “Thus I suggest taking these numbers with a grain or two of salt”, and even overlooking that, 31% would be considered by most as “unlikely”.
I can’t imagine why Roger Clemens, after looking like a shadow of his old self in the mid-90s, suddenly roared back with a 10 fWAR in 1997. No idea!
You might as well figure the elite hitters of this generation are going to suddenly start running wRC+’s well above 200 in the twilight of their career because Barry Bonds did. Those data points just don’t have much relevance to today’s game, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
Haha, very fair point, but there are other examples.
Curt Schilling racked up 127 Wins in seven seasons after his 34th birthday, and he was plagued by injuries in three of those seasons.
Mike Mussina won 123 in eight seasons between his age 32 season and age 39 season from 2001-2008 including 20 in his last season.
Landscape is totally different now than it was even 10 years ago. Not arguing it’s likely at all that Kershaw, or anyone listed, gets to 300. But citing averages over arbitrary sample sizes for a stat that is in no way predictable as reason against his chances didn’t compute for me. Not to mention the author qualified explicitly by saying he thought the projections were “a bit high”.
Schilling though from age 31 on- which is where Kershaw is- won 147 games. The problem is prior to that age- he only had 1242 innings pitched, Kershaw has 2051 and counting. That’s a 800 plus inning advantage- not to mention Kershaw has 122 postseason innings- Schilling prior to 31 had 31 innings So almost a 900 inning difference there.
Mussina- won 131 games from 31 on. Also averaged 6.33 innings per start from 31 on. He had 1772 innings pitched prior to 31 with another 42 innings in the playoffs. So he had about 1815 innings pitched total to Kershaw at 2173. Mussina also had 93 starts and 634 innings in years 28-30 so he was far healthier than Kershaw has been last 3 years.
I just don’t see Kershaw as being the most likely guy to get 300 wins from the bunch we have right now. You’re telling me he’s going to double his wins from right now, given his injury situation the last 5 years, where he’s had more than 27 starts only once? I think that’s just a fantasy.
The idea that Clemens was washed up in the mid-90s, then invincible starting in 1997 isn’t entirely accurate. The perception that Clemens was bad in 1996 mostly came from his losing W-L record, but he also pitched 242 innings and led the league in K/9, which would basically make him Superman today.
True, he was better in Toronto than he was in his later Boston years, but he was also worse in NY than either of those. If his career arc is the product of steroid magic, then it’s hard to explain why he got mediocre again in his late 30s before dominating again in Houston.
Steroid users have variation too.
Mostly because Houston let him pitch only part of the year.
Sale’s chances at 300 seem really high (26%) for someone who just broke 100 at 29.
Exactly- not to mention the shoulder problems he’s got right now.
“Thus I suggest taking these numbers with a grain or two of salt”
I’d also bet that the shoulder problems he’s experiencing right now have a lot to do with the cushion they have in the AL East.
I don’t know. I mean, the lead is down to 9, and they say he’s not started throwing again. Also, this is the guy who has constantly not been the same pitcher in the 2nd half of the season ever.
I think his annual second half performances are even more a reason to find a reason to rest him. Heck, they’ve been limiting him all season with an eye on the postseason.
I’m sure he’s feeling something, but I don’t know that it would be enough to keep him out if they weren’t so far ahead.
I don’t agree with this tactic of resting players to get them ready for the playoffs. I think we more commonly see this in football and usually we see it backfire.
And while this is totally speculation on my part, I do think there’s a reasonable possibility that Boston is handling him with kid gloves here given their lead in the division and their application of him this season. They’ve pretty much openly admitted to protecting him all year.
Well, the lead is down all of a sudden to 8 games(and 7 in the loss column) with 2 more Red Sox games with Cleveland while the Yankees get the Marlins for 1 more. Then this weekend- Boston gets 3 in Tampa while the Yankees get 4 with the Orioles. This could get a whole lot closer by Sunday.
I never said I agreed with the tactic!
Or it could be a lot less close. Baseball! Seriously, Fangraphs thinks the Yankees are better than the Red Sox, which is dubious based on this season’s results, and they still have the Red Sox at 95% to win.
Being on a better team than the White Sox will help his wins/season.
Sale last 2 years with White Sox- 30 wins
Sale 1st 2 years with Red Sox- 29 wins
he might be able to get a few more wins with the Red Sox- but it’s not a huge difference. Sale did win 17 games his final year with the White Sox.
CC would like a word about “last legs”:
Since 2017, among 128 guys with 30+ starts, Sabathia ranks:
— #21 in ERA+
— #29 in bWAR, and
— #29 with 21 Wins, since that’s the topic here.
You’re the guru, and no, I don’t think CC sniffs 300, either. But it’s not impossible.
3-4 years ago, no one thought Verlander would revive his shot at that landmark.
Bartolo’s had quite a run since those platelet injections saved his career, so maybe CC’s knee gets a miracle, too.
i think CC has said he’s done if they win the WS this year. that being said, they might coax one more season out of him given that team, but 260 seems bullish.
not everyone morphs into david wells.
Clearly, CC’s desire to continue is a prerequisite.
But I’m not sure everyone knows that 24 pitchers since WWII won 50+ from age 38 on.
Okay, there were 6 knuckleballers and at least two who doctored the ball. A few more were elites who’d shown few signs of slowing by age 37, and surely another few used PEDs. That still leaves:
— Jamie Moyer (138 wins from age 38): His 5.49 ERA at 37 suggested his nice little run of success as a junker might be over. But his best years were ahead.
— Bartolo (94): You can’t find a bigger longshot at age 37 than being out of organized ball and 5 years removed from your last healthy and successful one.
— David Wells (78): Never far above or below average, he just kept throwing strikes, stayed healthy (for no apparent reason), and chose his teams wisely.
— Kenny Rogers (74): See David Wells.
— Tommy John (74) and Dennis Martinez (68): Both hard to fit on this spectrum, had just hit their peaks at 37 after seeming done around age 30.
— Early Wynn (65): Had a bad year at 37, and Cleveland dealt him away. Cy Young Award at 39.
— Tom Glavine (54): Sharp dropoff at 37, his first Mets year, with his fewest full-season innings. Bounced back for a more gentle decline.
— Rick Reuschel (52): From age 34-37 averaged 7 wins and 133 IP. From 38-40, averaged 16 wins and 227 IP, with 2 All-Star nods.
— John Smoltz (50): After TJ surgery at 33, was a closer from 34-37. Then reeled off 3 years just like Reuschel’s.
It’s not a copious sample, but it’s more than a handful. And when you can make $10 million for 150 innings, you’re likely to keep pushing as long as you can stand the pain.
In hindsight, I regret my tone, seeing that you solidly justified the skepticism on CC’s 300-win chance, along with everything else you covered. (Including the careful caveats before that odds table, which we all should read more carefully.) Great job, Jay.
The 300 win threshold makes so little sense it’s laughable. If you’re talking 15 wins x 20 year career, that should be considered the pinnacle of performance, not a baseline. It’s incredibly difficult to get to the Majors at 20 and pitch until 40. If you go with 20 wins x 15 years, that’s equally as insane as a 20 win season should represent a career year, particularly in this environment. It makes no sense to require that level of performance over a career. I have never been an aggregator of stats fan for the Hall. Punching a clock for 20+ years is admirable, but that alone should not make a player one of the all-time greats.
i think 250 is the new 300 with this group. with bullpen specialization, the @#$@ton of money these guys have made, most walk away or will be walked away from by FOs before they sniff that degree of longevity.
but, please, let Bartolo keep pitching somewhere.
There should be two separate committees to elect those who fall off the ballot into the HOF. A committee of older writers and a committee of younger ones.
That would help progress the hall into the new era, past the dated and now horribly criteria of old.
I’m really excited for the HOF discussions once the current crop of SPs are eligible.
Scherzer and Kershaw I think will both be locks given their relative dominance during this era, assuming a modicum of health for Kershaw, but the other “peripheral” guys will be really interesting.
Verlander I think is the next one in for me. Even with relatively middling rates for the HOF (3.41 ERA and 1.17 WHIP), he’s got considerable hardware (RoY, Cy Young, MVP and five other Top 5 finishes for the Cy Young).
The really interesting guys will be Greinke, Sabathia, Felix, and Lester, who I think I’d rate in that order today with only perhaps Greinke making it, although we’ll need to see how the rest finish up.
Felix especially. He’s got the best ERA out of that quartet (3.33, Greinke next at 3.38), second best WHIP (1.20, Greinke at 1.17) and best K/9 (8.4, Greinke and Lester both at 8.3). All of this said, he’s obviously trending down considerably the last two years, and isn’t looking likely to reinvent himself and rebound. But, we’ve said that before (see: Verlander pre-2016, and then again last year pre-Houston, and Sabathia pre-2017).
This all excluding guys like Kluber, Sale and Bumgarner, who still need to compile a little more before opening these debates, although they’re clearly trending towards those discussions.
Kershaw even with the lack of wins would be such an easy in. I think Scherzer, Kershaw, and Verlander are close to locks. Greinke will be a fascinating case.
The guy that I think will be really fun to watch will be Kluber. He’s got all of 91 career wins. But he’s got 2 Cy Youngs. Those 3 guys you mentioned- Kluber/Sale/Bumgarner will be really fun to watch these next 5 years.
I wonder a) how much of this will become a logjam behind Mike Mussina, b) how many of the guys use the plausibly defensible reason of not having 300 wins to not vote for Mike Mussina but c) their real reason for not voting for Mike Mussina is a collection of issues that are essentially indefensible even in sum. Basically, the wins thing is just the tip of the iceberg of a whole set of affective reactions that keep him out, and if that crumbles, their keeping him out of the hall looks (more) irrational than it does right now, which but for wins, looks really irrational.
Honestly I was basically Mussina first ballot all the way. It’ll look REALLY stupid if Halladay gets in and Mussina doesn’t.
Mussina is going to get in soon. I don’t think there’s ever been a guy who made it to 63% in his 5th year and failed to get voted in before his 15 years on the ballot was up.
He would be the first to be 100+ Wins over .500 not to get in, for whatever that’s worth. Pettitte now in that group also. I think Mussina deserves it, and Pettitte doesn’t.
Mussina should get in on the next ballot along with Rivera. Schilling should be close as well. I am really interested to see what happens with Halladay and Pettitte.
Halladay and Pettitte will both get in, Halladay first ballot.
Pettitte may have to wait until 2010- when Big Papi is likely to break the PED taboo, which also happens to be Bonds/Clemons last year on the ballot (so a convenient time to get them in as well).
There are so few strong candidates in coming years that Mussina, Schilling, Hallady and Pettitte are locks.
Halladay will probably not get in on the first ballot. He might be close but definitely not on the first try (too many people in the BBWAA believe in “1st ballot HOFers”). Pettitte is hardly a lock given his connection with PEDs, his WAR being nearly 10 below the average HOF SP, and his 7-year peak WAR is nearly 16 below average. Yes, his win total is nice. Yes, he had postseason success. But there are too many holes in his resume to be a “lock”.
As a career high hurdle guy, basically career WAA with adjustments and bonuses, I’d root for Verlander, Greinke, Felix, Kershaw, Sale, Scherzer, Hamels, Sabathia, and possibly Bumgarner is he does well for 5+ more years. If Bartolo or Moyer got in somehow under the Eppa Riley rule I’d be fine with it.
Sale has got to do it for far more than what he has. Right now him and Bumgarner would be around the same place. Bumgarner probably would have the advantage with the HOF voters with the postseason piece.
Felix IMO is in deep trouble. Just not enough of a peak and he just hasn’t aged well at all.
You may be right about where Sale is with voters but 29 bWAA and 43 bWAR at age 29 is pretty close to the bar at a pretty young age for me.
But barely 100 wins won’t get you close. He’s worse off than where King Felix was at age 29. He had 50 bWAR thru 29. Sale at 42.7 age 28 Absolutely no way that Sale is close to being in the HOF right now.
Just because several comments referenced Verlander’s ERA:
There are 45 guys in the Hall who made at least 200 starts in the live-ball era.
Counting only those years:
— Just 11 have a worse ERA than Verlander’s 3.41. But…
— 22 have a worse RA/9 than Verlander’s 3.69.
Here are the 11 with a better ERA but worse RA/9:
— Pete Alexander, 3.09, 3.72
— Stan Coveleski, 3.20, 3.96
— Dazzy Vance, 3.22, 3.76
— Bob Lemon, 3.23, 3.74
— Randy Johnson, 3.29, 3.71
— Walter Johnson, 3.33, 3.94
— Fergie Jenkins, 3.34, 3.71
— Eppa Rixey, 3.34, 4.08
— Lefty Gomez, 3.34, 3.92
— Phil Niekro, 3.35, 3.89
— Robin Roberts, 3.41, 3.77
For all 45 guys, the average UERA was 0.49 (again, just their stats since 1920).
Verlander’s UERA is 0.28.
And for the top 50 qualified seasons by ERA since 2016, it’s 0.24.
My point isn’t anyone’s specific numbers, or Verlander’s HOF case. It’s this:
A pitcher’s job is to prevent RUNS, not just earned runs. There have been vast changes in context over these 100 years, and error rates are part of that spectrum. We *shouldn’t* ignore context in HOF discussions; but if we ever do that, then let’s really do it — not ignore all context EXCEPT the always-declining share of runs that are considered “unearned.”
ERA has to die. If you’re going to use one non-adjusted stat, use RA/9.
Errors have declined throughout baseball history, for many reasons. Most of us agree that a big reason they keep going down NOW is that the standards have eased. (I don’t want to go off on that tangent, but we’ve all seen “hits” that were flat-out boots. My brother calls me every day with another example.)
The very idea that a pitcher is not to blame for “unearned runs” is half-baked, at best. The situations when errors occur, and the range of subsequent events, are just too varied to fit them all under one heading — and then we have the fallacy of the predetermined outcome as the scorer “reconstructs the inning.”
Above all, doing so supports the absurd assumption that the pitcher IS responsible for all NON-error outcomes on batted balls.
I’m with those who would rather do away with errors on batted-ball outcomes than to continue with the haphazard judgments we see now. But we don’t have to wait for a rules change. Just use RA/9 instead of ERA.
cluster errors at the ballpark/scorekeeper level? Can we do that? That would control for heterogeneity among scorekeepers
The only problem with either ERA or RA/9 is they don’t take into account the run scoring environment of the league or even the player’s ballpark. A 3.50 ERA in the 1930’s or 1990’s isn’t that bad, a 3.50 ERA in 1990’s Coors Field is probably a HOF type performance..a 3.50 ERA in the late 1960’s is probably below average.
ERA + is a good tool to use, along with RA/9
“We *shouldn’t* ignore context in HOF discussions” — call it “environment” if you like, I’m cool with that. But btw, B-Ref should come up with “RA/9+” or the like. I’m done with caring about whether a run met some scorer’s random standard of earnedness.
Mark Buehrle and his 214 wins are another interesting case. I don’t think he gets in, he doesn’t have the Cy Young awards or was ever as dominant as Verlander at his best. But he did a lot of things exceptionally well, like 14 consecutive years of 200+ IP. Nobody in that era (and few in any) was even close to that kind of durability. He was an excellent defender and controlled the running game as well as anybody. His 33 CG are the fourth most this millennium. As I said, I don’t think he will get in, but it will be interesting to see how much support he gets.
He also had a no hitter, a perfect game, and got a save in a world series game after starting the previous game. But that’s all basically trivia, not a HOF case.
I love Mark Buehrle, but you still don’t get to double-count things. His defense and theft prevention already show up in his pitching line, just like his low walk rate and high GDP rate. Those are all integral parts of why a guy with a very low K rate was successful in a high-K era — they’re not bonuses.
I agree completely. It’s just that those things are a lot less gaudy than velocity, strikeouts, or filthy breaking stuff. Greg Maddux got a lot from similar skills, but had even better control, better “stuff” earlier in his career, and the flashy win totals and Cy Young awards.
Not sure if it was intentional, but that graph is quite deceptive. The left axis goes to zero, but the right axis is zoomed into the range where the data is. The result is that the slope and year-to-year volatility of the red line appears more extreme. If you would to show both metrics on the same graph as a way to compare their rate of change, I suggest modifying the axes so that that percent change on the left and right axes are the same.
Great article.
The percentages look pretty much on point to me, FWIW.
The percentages might simply be proxies for ‘whats the odds this guy pitches until 40,’ based on performance moreso than medicals. If you assume that any 300w scenario automatically includes the SP pitching to 42 or so, then none of the win/season totals are too outrageous. Even with Sale- he’s a consistently dominant SP on a consistently good club making a run at the wins record, he will of course have strong projected win totals even in this era.
As mentioned, the projections probably treat the recent decline in W/GS as temporary, expecting regression back to historic norms. Perhaps this decline is more permanent- I think the author and most analysts feel that this decline is now part of the game. But, while the decline might be permanent, it is worth mentioning that wins are a fixed currency, each season contains the same number of wins. Wins are just being shifted towards non-starters.
I do wonder if the ‘opener’ tactic becomes more common, whether wins might again be shifted towards ‘quasi-SPs.’ If 3/4+ inning roles shift from the start of the game to the middle, then the longer-IP pitchers will dominate the share of league wins, perhaps moreso than in the 80s/90s. If longer-IP pitchers are only going to face a lineup twice, then the average 2-lineup outing will span 4.2 IPs: with most wins being credited in the 5th, 6th, & 7th innings, a later start will help those pitchers get credited for more wins.
If wins continue to be a key part of salary/arbitration discussions, as well as HOF credentials, perhaps longer-IP pitchers will want to enter games at some point(a favorable split or matchup) in the 3rd inning: pitching the whole 4th, and then trying to get throug the 5th and 6th. Such a paradigm would likely include an opener, a middle reliever, the long-IP pitcher, then the standard 7th, 8th & 9th.
This idea aside- the projections are likely wise to consider the idea that win-distribution for starting pitchers (or starting type pitchers) might regress back to historic means.
Until Mike Mussina gets in, there can be no rational debate about modern-day HOF starting pitchers
Doesn’t have anything to do with win totals but I just want to comment on how ridiculously consistent Verlander has been. Not counting the 2 spot starts he made in 2005 this is his 13th season. And in those 13 seasons he has never been below 2.8WAR(which came his rookie year). Hell Pedro and Clemens couldn’t even say they did that.
To me that is incredible especially in this day and age where guys routinely miss months or a season at a time, or they just have a distastrous year. Verlander has never had that. Sure he’s had “down” years but even in those few he was a clear asset to his team. I know this really wasn’t the point of the article but FWIW I think when you factor this in with his unbelieveably peak and he is a 1st ballot HOF.
As far as the very last part, I think JAWS is a bit broken for the modern pitcher. They just aren’t going as far as pitchers even 10-15 years ago, and it makes using WAR to compare pitchers from different generations nearly impossible. There just aren’t 9+ WAR seasons anymore. The last decade has three 8+ WAR seasons with 09 Greinke, 15 Kershaw, and 11 Halladay. Verlander has the 4th highest in that time from his 2009 season at 7.7. He appears 4 times in the top 30 (looking at Fangraphs, of course). in that time, FWIW.
This is just a bit of a tangent, but JAWS might need some adjusting for pitchers.