Victorino and Ellsbury: Having the Same Season

Jacoby Ellsbury is having a terrific year, and has been one of the best all-around players in baseball this year. He’s been one of the main reasons the Red Sox have rebounded from a slow start, and is rightfully getting attention as a legitimate MVP candidate. He should absolutely be part of that discussion.

Over in the National League, though, Shane Victorino is performing at the same level and, at least by my perception, is getting roundly ignored. This should not be. Let’s put them side by side, shall we?

Ellsbury: .314/.369/.508, .387 wOBA, 142 wRC+, +11.2 UZR, +6.2 WAR
Victorino: .313/.390/.536, .406 wOBA, 157 wRC+, +6.5 UZR, +5.7 WAR

At the plate, Victorino’s been a bit better, posting the same average while drawing a few more walks and hitting for a little more power. UZR prefers Ellsbury as a defender this year, and he has a better reputation than Victorino, but both are valuable assets with the glove in center field. Both are also top-of-the-lineup hitters for teams that are performing extremely well and are essentially locks to make the playoffs. So, why the dramatic difference in recognition?

It basically comes down to counting stats. Victorino has had two separate stints on the 15-day DL this year, so he’s missed just a little less than a month of the season. Because of that, he only has 408 plate appearances, while Ellsbury has 541. The playing time gap gives Ellsbury an advantage in most of the counting stats – he has 41 more hits, 16 more stolen bases, 11 more runs scored, and eight more home runs. There’s also a drastic difference in RBIs, but hopefully voters would realize that there’s a huge disadvantage in hitting at the top of the line-up in the NL in that regard and not really use those to evaluate Victorino’s performance.

I don’t want to downplay the extra value that Ellsbury has been able to accrue since he’s stayed healthy. Certainly, he should get credit for playing the full season while Victorino loses points for the games he spent on the DL. However, value is a balance of quality and quantity, and Victorino’s performance has been a bit better when he’s been on the field. That’s why the gap in WAR isn’t so large, even though Ellsbury has played 26 more games than Victorino.

Since they’re in different leagues, they won’t actually be compared by voters this winter, but I do hope that the fact that Ellsbury is being touted as an MVP candidate (again, rightfully so) encourages NL voters to look at their league’s version of the same player. While he’s overshadowed by some ridiculously talented teammates, Victorino’s monster year is near the top of the list of reasons why the Phillies have run away with the NL East.

Center fielders who can hit, run, and field are remarkably valuable. I’m glad guys like Ellsbury and Curtis Granderson are getting the recognition they deserve in the American League. I just hope that National League voters realize that they have a very similar candidate on their side of things.





Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.

81 Comments
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Anon21member
12 years ago

I don’t know anything about Ellsbury, but the NL MVP voters are morally obligated to knock some points off of Victorino for general insufferableness.

Muggi
12 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

Why is that? I know this seems to be a common feeling outside of Philly, but I never understood why.

What has he done to earn such a reputation? He plays hard and is a pillar of the community off the field.

Asking honestly.

Anon21member
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

Answering honestly: very difficult to articulate. Part of it is that he’s good and fast, both annoying qualities to have matched against you. Part of it has to do with the way he carries himself, his facial expressions and mannerisms. I’m sure he’s a lovely human being, but as Poz puts it, I Clemenate the shit out of that guy.

Anon21member
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

I should specify a little further re: the tangible, baseball production aspect. He’s good at getting on base and fast, so it seems like he’s always flitting around, distracting the pitcher, and scoring runs. That’s annoying in a way that HRs aren’t, so much, because it’s a constant, ongoing irritant.

cs3member
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

Honest answer:

Did you see the game vs SF where he started the brawl?
That incident made him look like a little bitch and just confirmed many peoples preconceived notions about him…

He started to charge the mound after being hit by a pitch from Ramon Ramirez. But as soon as Victorino started coming out, RAMIREZ left the mound and went to meet him. At that point Victorino got scared and hid behind the umpire until his teammates all came pouring out of the dugout. Then when there were enough guys between him and any danger, he finally decided it was time to get involved in the fight that HE started. Pretty weak.

Later on during the fighting he punched the Giants hitting coach Bam Bam Muelens in the head with a blind-side cheap shot. Also pretty weak.
(Thankfully Pablo clocked Victorino in the face towards the end of the skirmish to put him in his place)

Really confirmed the notion that Victorino is an annoying little prick with little man syndrome.

Charlie Manuel
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

@cs3 At least he wasn’t as bad as whiteside, bouncing around like a fucking pogo stick and attempting to tackle Polanco (at which he failed miserably) who was coming in to break up the fight.

John
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

just for the record, my name shouldn’t be listed as charlie manuel there. That was still there from another comment. … awkward.

And to be fair, Victorino has ADD so I imagine it’s tough for him to handle getting beaned like that.

jim
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

there’s also his famous incident of nailing clint barmes in the crotch while going into second

Matt
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

I’ve also seen him get in a run-down more than once and run straight into one of the fielders on purpose to try to get interference called on them. Bush league.

Scott G
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

I can’t believe the series of comments that I just read. Victorino didn’t start the brawl. He started toward the mound, and then probably realized he didn’t want to get tossed. He wasn’t a coward waiting for his teammates. Did you see any of this? He is being held back, and you can see him watching Pablo Sandoval cheap shot Carlos Ruiz in the middle of the pack, and then he breaks away and runs into the middle of the brawl to help his teammate. Doesn’t seem too cowardly to me.

@Matt, First of all, Victorino and players that do that are trying to draw an obstruction call, not interference (interference is on the runner interrupting a fielder, not the other way). Running into a fielder is a smart way to get on base. Playing smart baseball is bush league? Are you too good for trying to help your team win at any cost? More players should play this way (read smart). In a similar sense, fielders should charge the ball through the runner to get an interference call. Too many times, a fielder will sit back and wait for the ball, and then not be able to make the throw to first base in time to get the runner. This happened to Jimmy Rollins last night.

cs3member
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

@Scott G

you must be delusional if you dont think Victorino started that brawl.
Youre trying to tell me that a guy who gets hit by a pitch and starts to charge the mound is not responsible? Interesting.

And dont tell me he was being “held back”. When has an umpire EVER stopped a player from doing what they really wanted to do? Thats just absurd to claim. The simple fact is that when he saw Ramirez actually leave the mound to come meet him, Vicotrino realized he would probably get his ass kicked, and hid.

Maybe you should watch it again at mlb.com and see if your opinion changes

Scott G
12 years ago
Reply to  Muggi

First of all I have a feeling you’re trying to get technical here. 1) There would be no reason to get angry had Ramirez not intentionally thrown at Victorino, and 2)How can you start a brawl without throwing a punch or doing anything other than walking a few feet in front of home plate? Obviously he didn’t head directly toward first base, but I’ve seen numerous examples where all that occurs is words being exchanged. The Giants definitely started the fight. Whiteside was the first player to come into any sort of contact with an opposing player, and it wasn’t even Victorino. I’ve watched the video enough by now to know. Ramirez escalated the situation. If he stays on the mound, the Giants players have no need to run in toward the plate.

The umpire (AND A GIANTS COACH) held Victorino for an extended period of time. If Victorino is soooooooooo scared, then why did he run into the pack to help out Ruiz who was getting cheap shotted by Pablo Sandoval? He was being held back by a Phillies coach at the time, so he had a perfect “excuse” to stay out.

BDF
12 years ago
Reply to  Anon21

I had no idea non-Phillies fans felt this way about Victorino, and I can’t understand it. The price you pay for excellence, I guess.

Anon21member
12 years ago
Reply to  BDF

I mean, maybe. Pujols really doesn’t seem to attract the same level of antipathy. I think it really is something about the way Victorino carries himself, which is probably interpreted as confidence or grace or something by fans and as arrogance by opponents.

Vic Torino
12 years ago
Reply to  BDF

It is probably something akin to how Phillies fans feel about Reyes.

Scott G
12 years ago
Reply to  BDF

Except Victorino doesn’t run from 1st to 3rd after hitting a home run with his finger in the air like a jerk.