Visualizing 2015 Mookie Betts vs. 2015 Javier Baez

Earlier, I asked you to participate in an exercise projecting both next year’s Mookie Betts and next year’s Javier Baez. The idea is that Betts seems representative of a particularly safe prospect, while Baez represents something of a more volatile asset. I promised that I would analyze the results given a sufficient sample size of votes, and, such a sample size has already been achieved. Interestingly, as of right now, there have been three more votes in the Baez poll than in the identical Betts poll. The best possible conclusion is that three FanGraphs readers had their browsers lock up at a most unfortunate time. The worst possible conclusion is chilling indeed.

So I think it’s safe to move forward with a little analysis. Before getting there, I hope you understand that *I* understand that I didn’t conduct this exercise perfectly. Nevermind the wisdom of the exercise in the first place; all my words might’ve biased the voters to some degree. I could’ve written nothing, or I could’ve at least put the polls before the words. But, what’s done is done. Also understand that, while you’re going to see a measure of uncertainty, this is perceived uncertainty, and not actual uncertainty. We can’t know actual uncertainty. We’re just going to go ahead and pretend like what we think is a decent proxy for what actually is. Let’s see how the community feels about Mookie Betts and Javier Baez, for 2015.

First, the distribution of votes, for Betts’ offense:

bettsprojection

The most popular choice was a wRC+ between 110 – 119. That seems appropriate enough; Steamer’s projection has Betts at 118. The community, as a whole, has projected Betts for a similar 114 wRC+, if you allow the assignment of specific numbers for each individual vote based on the buckets (that is, we can estimate that a vote for 110 – 119 is essentially a vote for 115). You see a small number of votes in each of the most extreme buckets, and to some degree that reflects people messing around, but the effect is small — that’s just about 2% of the voting total. The three most popular buckets captured 82% of the votes.

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Now, here’s the distribution of votes, for Baez’s offense:

baezprojection

The most popular choice was a wRC+ between 90 – 99. Steamer projects Baez for a straight-up 90, so, there you go. It’s interesting to note that the community has projected Baez for a 100 wRC+. Steamer projects a gap of 28 points of wRC+, while the community has cut that gap in half. An unintended effect might’ve come out of specifying a hypothetical 600 plate appearances; some readers, upon seeing that, concluded that Baez wouldn’t get 600 plate appearances if he were miserable. That’s true, but that’s not what I was trying to ask, and that’s another mistake that I made. No choice now but to deal with it. The three most popular buckets captured 72% of the votes. This is one simple indicator that Baez is indeed perceived to be more difficult to project.

Now then, a direct comparison. Here you’ll see error bars, representing +/- one standard deviation based on the voting. These errors bars capture about 68% of the projected outcomes. Extending to two standard deviations would capture about 95% of the projected outcomes.

bettsvsbaez

As noted before, Betts is projected for a mean 114 wRC+. Baez is projected for a mean 100 wRC+. The assumption was that Betts would end up with a smaller standard deviation, and that is what we observe. One standard deviation for Betts comes out to 12.6 points of wRC+. Two standard deviations, then, comes out to 25.2. One standard deviation for Baez comes out to 16.0 points of wRC+. So two standard deviations comes out to 32.1.

Expressed differently:

Betts

  • Average: 114 wRC+
  • Range, 1 SD: 101 – 126 wRC+
  • Range, 2 SD: 88 – 139 wRC+

Baez

  • Average: 100 wRC+
  • Range, 1 SD: 84 – 116 wRC+
  • Range, 2 SD: 68 – 132 wRC+

For Betts, you’re looking at ranges of 25 and 50 points. For Baez, you’re looking at ranges of 32 and 64 points. One standard deviation for Baez is 27% larger than one standard deviation for Betts. Does that mean the audience perceives Baez to be something like 27% more difficult to project? I don’t know, and that seems like too simple an interpretation of the math, but forget about the words and just think about the numbers. Baez is projected here to be more volatile than Betts. The apparent difference? 27%. Perhaps that doesn’t seem like much to you. Or perhaps that seems like a lot. On one hand, they’re very different prospects; on the other hand, they’re still both unproven prospects.

Really, in order to do more, we’d need a bigger sample, with more players, some of them prospects and some of them veterans, some of them pitchers and some of them hitters. How do these measures of audience uncertainty compare to the uncertainty around, say, Mike Trout or Andrew McCutchen? Prince Fielder or Brandon Morrow? How do these measures compare to percentile likelihoods generated by projection systems like PECOTA and ZiPS? Are the projection systems more accurate? Are the fans more accurate? How closely might fan perceptions match actual reality, as opposed to what we think reality is going to look like?

The tricky thing is, we’ll never know how much uncertainty is the right amount of uncertainty around a Mookie Betts or a Javier Baez. A correct answer does exist — it’s a number, and numbers exist, and for example, 3 is a number — but it isn’t knowable, and it’ll probably never really be knowable given that every player is different and faces different circumstances. The absolute best player comp is still a comparison between one baseball player and a very different baseball player and person, so, how much can that tell you, really?

We don’t know how uncertain a player’s future is. The best we can do is guess. Often, these guesses are made based on baseball’s statistical history. In these posts, we had an attempt to poll a smart audience. If nothing else, this information reflects the feelings at a given moment in time. Maybe the feelings will end up looking silly in hindsight, but by then we’ll have different young players we’re all trying to project. Some of them are going to seem relatively safe, and some of them are going to seem risky.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

45 Comments
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Josh
11 years ago

this was a really awesome way to demonstrate a point

Asmo
11 years ago

One scout I talked to told me that Baez reminded him a lot of Merrill Hess. You’ll all be sorry for having doubted Baez after he saves the world from an alien invasion.

Pitch Data
11 years ago
Reply to  Asmo

Last time I checked, scouts have variation in their evualations, let alone the projections. Nobody can predict baseball with certainty.

Nostradamaso Marte
11 years ago
Reply to  Pitch Data

I can.

Federico
11 years ago

+1 for the name choice

Doug
11 years ago

I’m going to just assume that the certain amount of uncertainty to hold is, in fact, “3” for all future players and situations.

Anonymous
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I made a random number generator to project the results of these players. Here are the results:

3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, and 3.

MDLMember since 2021
11 years ago
Reply to  Anonymous
KK-Swizzle
11 years ago

Thanks for doing these sorts of projects Jeff. It’s really interesting to see crowd-sourced data integrated with novel analytical ideas!

As for this particular topic, I have no doubt that exhaustive studies have been done and will continue to be done. Skill-set variability is a legitimate factor in projecting player performance, but I feel it’s important to remember that a lot of performance variation is completely out of the realm human influence. Freak injuries, statistical randomness, and even the weather can significantly affect outcomes.

Keep up the good work!

Cat Latos
11 years ago

I like this idea, though it does only capture one source of the audience uncertainty. The higher standard deviations are consistent with your predictions that opinions are more divided on Baez than on Betts, but it could theoretically have been the case that everyone had the identical expectation for both players (say, 110 wRC+), but that everyone’s individual error bars were higher for Baez (i.e. they though his median projection is as good as Betts’, but that he had a much greater chance of booming or busting).

Given the difficulty people have on quantifying their uncertainty it’s probably reasonable to focus on the “between-individual variance” and ignore the “within-individual variance” for this first attempt. I wonder if the combined variance (between + within) would end up comparable to a variance estimated from a projection system – which could be in principle be estimated by success and failure rates of historical players with comparable projections, though I’m not sure if any of them do this.

novaether
11 years ago
Reply to  Cat Latos

Yes, I’m worried that the two are being muddled a bit. The first article asked about “within-individual” but we’ve answered “between-individual”.

To your wonder, though, I wouldn’t want a projection system that accounted for both. A projection system could have a variance for each player to describe his boom-or-bust nature, or injury-proneness, or whatever. Including the variance of mean opinions would only be appropriate for a projection aggregator, like the FANS projection or an average projection, if you were to use more than one for your analysis. For example, steamer and zips are often averaged for analysis in these articles. That’s a case where you could include the variance of the mean projections between two in the total variance.

Some skeptics
11 years ago

It seems to me that different skill sets have qualitativley different inherent levels of uncertainty. Plate discipline would seem to me to be a relatively stable skill set and thus have a much less level of uncertainty. A player like Mookie who has that skill set in abundance will always be a safer bet then a free swinger like Baez.

Dr Elephant
11 years ago

Completely off topic but, Jeff, you probably read these comments, right? You’ve expressed reticence in appearing on the podcast when there’s not much baseball to talk about, but I think your episodes are great – volcanoes, break-ins or baseball, it doesn’t matter – you are Carson have a comfortable banter, it seems like you enjoy talking with each other, and the conversations are genuinely engaging. Don’t sell yourself short as a radio personality.

Michael
11 years ago

I think one problem with this approach is the crowd was told to expect Betts to be less volatile before being polled. It’s hard to know, but this could bias the results–in the future it might be good to mask the objective of the poll.

Rick Lancellotti@gmail.com
11 years ago

Bill James’ 2015 projections has Betts at:
.321/.405/.493; 41 2B, 15 HR, 40 SB

Are there biases in James projections towards Boston players? I can remember W. Middlebrooks having some ridiculously optimistic projection a year or two ago, but don’t know whether he is just overly optimistic on everyone or what.

Aj Grands
11 years ago

he’s really overly optimistic on everyone. occasionally hilariously so.

Josh
11 years ago
Reply to  Aj Grands

he nailed Chris Davis… about 4 years too early

Josh
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

and when I say ‘he’ I mean ‘they.’ don’t think he has much to do with that system.

David Scott
11 years ago
Reply to  Aj Grands

Here’s my guess:

.291/.355/.440

24 2B
10 HR
22 SB

For 465 PA

Vote Early Vote Often
11 years ago

Of course the Chicago player got more votes.

Howard
11 years ago

…because the poor Boston player has no fans supporting him! Oh no, what a small pitiful market that Boston must be. Imagine if they had any semblance of a fan base!

Atreyu Jones
11 years ago
Reply to  Howard

I’m pretty sure he was making some kind of joke about corrupt Illinois politics…

chuckb
11 years ago
Reply to  Atreyu Jones

Missing that joke was a bigger whit than we’ll see in Baez’s PA’s.

A Chicago voter
11 years ago

Wait, you’re not supposed to refresh Tor and vote ten times for the guy paying you to do so?

bubba munga
11 years ago

Compare standard deviation/mean when the averages are not equal.

DNA+
11 years ago

Jeff, kudos to you for owning up to the fact that you inadvertently biased the poll. It might be interesting to repeat the experiment for several players with various MLB and or MiLB track records (but this time don’t tell people how you think they should vote).

Beeen
11 years ago

Great post. I can’t help but feel like Jeff transitioned through 3 mental states when he wrote this: Write drunk, edit sober, revise high (as shit). Jeff’s endings are always existential death questions.

M. Incandenza
11 years ago

Well now this raises some interesting epistemological issues:

“The tricky thing is, we’ll never know how much uncertainty is the right amount of uncertainty around a Mookie Betts or a Javier Baez. A correct answer does exist — it’s a number, and numbers exist, and for example, 3 is a number — but it isn’t knowable, and it’ll probably never really be knowable given that every player is different and faces different circumstances.”

So you are presuming that there is some *actual* level of uncertainty independent of what we can know about the degree of uncertainty in question. This is interesting because it implies that there is a level of uncertainty that is independent of our knowledge. I think this may be problematic because uncertainty is, as near as I can tell, itself an epistemological category: it concerns certainty, and certainty pertains to our understanding, not to states of affairs in the world independent of our understanding.

But if this is so, then in positing a “certain” uncertainty independent of our condition of understanding, you are positing a condition of understanding that is independent of our understanding. On the face of it, that appears paradoxical. Your gloss on this (“A correct answer does exist — it’s a number, and numbers exist, and for example, 3 is a number — but it isn’t knowable”) appears to beg the question, in that it presumes that a quantified value actually applies to the level of uncertainty in question. But again, if uncertainty is a condition of our understanding, then this hypothetical value itself can not be any more precise than our own estimation of it.

I would therefore argue that there is no “right amount of uncertainty” to ascribe to a ballplayer’s future performance (or, indeed, to any phenomenon whatsoever) beyond whatever degree of uncertainty we actually express, discursively or in our general comportment toward the relevant phenomenon or however you want to cash out the notion of ‘expression.’

As it so happens, in this very article you did a very fine job of expressing this uncertainty: you used standard deviations and error bars and everything! THAT RIGHT THERE IS THE (UN)CERTAINTY YOU’RE LOOKING FOR! There simply is, as a categorical matter, no “actual” uncertainty beyond this.

And isn’t this reassuring in a way? Isn’t it good to know that knowledge is that which entwines us with the world, rather than something that is merely an imperfect representation of the world? Isn’t it better to suppose that reality emerges THROUGH our understanding – that is, through our actions as beings who enact the universe’s own self-perception, as those portions of the universe that turn back upon itself in the creation of meaning?

TL;DR: Mookie Betts is gonna KILL it in 2015.

The Fallen Phoenix
11 years ago
Reply to  M. Incandenza

Loved this comment, even though I’m (personally) inclined to think knowledge is more an imperfect representation of the world…

everdiso
11 years ago

Man o man mookie better not bust after all these fg articles on his lockishness.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  everdiso

Will Myers comes to mind. Betts is obviously a completely different type of player, but groupthink isn’t necessarily good thinking.

MustBunique
11 years ago
Reply to  everdiso

OH Yeah diso! All these blogs gettin results from readers. Pshaw. What do all those readers know about Mookie anyways? They aren’t writers, that’s for sure. More like Mookie Blaylock, right?! Rabble rabble!

wild style
11 years ago
Reply to  MustBunique

what the hell

Pato San
11 years ago

I was hoping these articles would be about types of skill sets that are more or less conducive to success.

wild style
11 years ago
Reply to  Pato San

I was hoping this article would be Jeff’s attempts to draw these players in Microsoft Paint.

Dr. Fart
11 years ago

And here we can observe an exaltation of nerds in their native habitat, acne riddled and between games of Settlers of Cataan, whose very lifestyle and cultural assimilation was made possible by the early 21st century sitcom Big Bang Theory.

Please don’t tap the glass.

Lens of truth
11 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Fart

Steve Dilbeck, that you?

Jbona3
11 years ago

I like this approach, however, I don’t think having people choose a discrete bucket of wRC+ accurately measures how the players are viewed. Having participated in the poll, I think Baez has a far higher upside than Betts, but Betts is more stable (and this is reflected in the overall findings). An interesting twist would be to measure what people feel the likelihood Betts and Baez could deliver each wRC+ bucket – in doing this, I think it would better reflect the relative uncertainty and upside for each. My assumption is that you’ll see very tight spread for bets, and Baez will be more at the extremes. (I realize this would be a much more laborious exercise for people to respond to.)

Rufus T. Firefly
11 years ago

I’m thinking that some small part of Mookie’s appeal is that he is named Mookie. How can you not love that? His name alone jacks up his price $2 in fantasy ball.

chuckb
11 years ago

You Betts it does!

Don Baylor's knee
11 years ago

I was expecting to see a bigger percentage say Betts would be above average (and they did,) but a wider spread for Baez, with more votes for superstar production than Betts. We didn’t really see that. I guess with just one chip to place on the roulette table, most played it safe and voted for the single most likely outcome. “Rolling” with the roulette analagoy, maybe if everyone had 10 chips to place, you might get a better representation of the crowds’ sense of upside/downside regarding a player.

Brian
11 years ago

More votes for superstar production? Are we looking at the same graphs?

Don Baylor's knee
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Sentence #1: “I was expecting… more votes for superstar production.”

Sentence #2. “We didn’t really see that.”

Brian
11 years ago

LMAO my bad man. Although personally I would have expected the votes to turn out how they did, Mookie is very highly regarded from everything I have seen.

Derek Zoolander
11 years ago

I’ve have a center for people like you, Brian.