We Might Be Observing the Decline of the Windup

Felix Hernandez will play a crucial role in determining the fate of the Mariners’ season. Felix isn’t what he used to be, and no one expects him to return to that level, but we at least know that he should still have the stuff. The changeup and curveball are there, if he wants to miss bats. The issues have been more mechanical. Felix hasn’t had the command he needs to succeed at his velocity. There’s much attention, then, being paid to his delivery. A week and a half ago, he threw for the first time in spring training. He said the following about his session.

“I threw everything, curveball, changeup, sinker and one slider,” he said. “It was OK. I was better from the stretch than from the windup.”

Why?

“I was more balanced from the stretch,” he said. “I was moving all over the place from the windup.”

Perfectly standard, unremarkable quote from early spring. Felix had some rust to knock off. He felt better out of one of his deliveries than out of the other. But, well, hold on. Why does he have two deliveries? Why do so many pitchers have two deliveries? You’d think that maintaining one would be complicated enough.

Alex Wood is over it. As the story goes, he was inspired by Stephen Strasburg, and to a lesser extent by Yu Darvish. Wood first got the idea last September, and now, moving forward, Wood is prepared to pitch exclusively from the stretch. In other words, Wood is dumping the windup, in the name of simplification. An excerpt, from the linked article by Pedro Moura:

“What idiot created the wind-up and the stretch?” Wood asked [Brandon] McCarthy. “Sitting here thinking about it, it just doesn’t make any sense. There is no benefit to it. You don’t see a right-handed hitter with two different swings and timing with guys on base or no one on.”

As you know, the windup is the longer, slower delivery generally used with the bases empty. The stretch is the quicker delivery used when a pitcher has to worry about controlling the running game. By default, most pitchers learn to have two throwing motions. That’s just the way it’s been, probably because people stubbornly believe the windup allows you to throw harder. If you think about it, it would make sense for any pitcher to focus on having just one motion, and you can’t pitch exclusively from the windup, unless you want to allow constant stolen bases. The important pitches are already thrown from the stretch, anyway. So why not just…only…pitch from the stretch?

That’s Wood’s idea. He took it from Strasburg, who last season abandoned the windup. Darvish also doesn’t use a windup. Brad Peacock recently started pitching exclusively from the stretch. White Sox prospect Tyler Danish said he’s going to work only from the stretch. Pitching from the stretch is one of the keys Danny Duffy and Carlos Carrasco took out of their stints in the bullpen. They don’t have windups. Noah Syndergaard has only a very simple windup. The same could be said of Rich Hill and David Price. I know I’m just rattling off names, now, but, why stop? Clay Buchholz ditched his windup. Last summer, Astros prospect Forrest Whitley started to work exclusively from the stretch. Jason Hammel made the change last May. Marco Gonzales made the change somewhere during the summer. And just for the sake of having visuals, here’s late-season Tyler Glasnow. Bases empty:

Runner on:

Glasnow wasn’t good in his brief return to the bigs, but when he was in Triple-A, he suddenly started throwing powerful strikes, and part of that was because he ditched the windup. Glasnow already had enough problems trying to throw strikes with one motion. Why not try to make things simpler, to effectively increase his number of repetitions? Glasnow doesn’t work from two different motions anymore. There really wasn’t any point.

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Joe Lemire wrote an article for Vocativ in the middle of 2016. It was titled, “Why Does Any Pitcher Use A Windup?” The answer is mostly tradition. Pitchers learn the windup when they’re young, and at that point, that’s just how they’ve always thrown. The windup was probably preferred because of perceived advantages, but they haven’t held up to investigation. As noted in Lemire’s article, scientific study hasn’t identified any extra stress on the arm coming out of the stretch. And there doesn’t seem to be a velocity difference, either. That linked article is eight years old, but it still holds up. Last year, the average starting pitcher threw his average fastball 0.1 miles per hour harder with runners on base, compared to with the bases empty. Working from the stretch doesn’t seem to have a cost.

Now, visually, there is a cost. If you like to think of baseball as art, well, the following is artistic, and you’d never see it with a runner on first.

Certain windups are aesthetically pleasing, while pitching from the stretch is just pitching from the stretch. But there aren’t many pitchers with windups as appealing as Ross Ohlendorf’s. Most windups tend to be pretty standard. And players aren’t incentivized to be as aesthetically pleasing as possible. They’re incentivized to be as effective as possible, and so it makes sense that mechanical flourishes might start to disappear. Anecdotally, at least, it feels like hitters are coalescing around common swing mechanics. You don’t see so many bizarre-looking stances. Pitchers wouldn’t be able to avoid the same pressure. Players are forever trying to become more efficient.

Obviously, countless pitchers have been able to work well both out of the windup and out of the stretch. If there isn’t a problem, there needn’t be a solution. Many pitchers continue to prefer the windup, because of familiarity, because of comfort. Some guys just feel more balanced when they can take more time. But, consider Hammel’s explanation for dropping the windup:

“It’s a more repeatable delivery for me,” Hammel said.
[…]
“The fix that I saw was this,” Hammel said, standing in the clubhouse on Tuesday. “I’m a long, tall guy. It’s usually pretty hard to get everything on time for us bigger guys. So anything to simplify the delivery to make it easier.”

A pitcher who can locate isn’t a pitcher who needs to make a change. But, many pitchers wish they had better location, and if you’re a conventional pitcher trying to improve, you’re working through two different motions. If you throw with one motion instead, then in theory it doesn’t take as long to iron out a wrinkle. It’s also easier, in theory, to spot when something is going awry. Overall, there are just fewer considerations. You don’t want to force a pitcher to be uncomfortable, but if a pitcher wants to drop the windup, there’s not a real good reason to tell him no.

Mike Sielski wrote about this a little last March. Another excerpt:

Phillies general manager Matt Kletnak said that the organization has looked at whether, as a general matter, simplifying pitchers’ windups or having them throw out of the stretch exclusively can benefit them. But he emphasized that it was important to deal with each pitcher’s problems on a case-by-case basis.

“I’m a big believer that we can work with pitchers,” Klentak said. “But sometimes the way that they throw is what makes them successful, and trying to clean up somebody’s delivery may make it look prettier, but it might also eliminate the deception that’s made them so successful. It’s a balancing act.”

This here is something that can’t be dismissed. Not the part about going on a case-by-case basis — that’s how all teams should approach all problems. But the part about deception. Deception is one of the last remaining unknowns, the variable that probably fills in the blank where stuff + focus + health + [blank] = results. We don’t exactly know why a given pitcher is or isn’t deceptive, and you certainly wouldn’t want to coach deceptiveness out. That being said, I’m not sure how much of a concern this should be. A windup, if anything, is usually easier to time. A lanky pitcher in the windup is still a lanky pitcher in the stretch, and, in the stretch, a pitcher still has the option to slide-step, or to quick-pitch, or to pause. Marcus Stroman recently introduced some hitches into his modified stretch. He doesn’t have a long, slow windup, but he’s still making an effort to mess with hitters’ timing.

This is a post about a possible trend. It’s a trend I can’t actually confirm, because there’s no such thing as a windup/stretch database. It could be there’s nothing here. Maybe I’m just trying to connect a few scattered dots. But I would not be surprised if the windup were very gradually starting to go away. It’s nothing that would happen overnight, not with young pitchers pitching at so many different levels. This is something that would have to trickle from the top on down. At the major-league level, though, it’s just hard to know the purpose the windup serves. All it is is a complication. Some guys certainly love the complication, but others have moved away, searching for that one missing tweak. If it’s happening more in the majors, it’ll happen more everywhere else. There’s pretty much always been a windup. It’s an accepted component of the pitching routine. Is it a necessary component? That one’s up for debate. Or, really, it’s probably not.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

36 Comments
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RotoholicMember since 2016
8 years ago

Excellent piece. I’ll also add that Andrew Miller credited pitching exclusively from the stretch for his improved control a few years ago when he went from being Mitch Williams to Mariano Rivera.

Just like terrible free-throw-shooters in the NBA that refuse to try the Rick Barry method due to aesthetics, I’ll never understand why pitchers with great stuff refuse to try ditching the windup.

LHPSU
8 years ago

While I agree with the premise of the article, the Alex Wood quote is problematic:

“You don’t see a right-handed hitter with two different swings and timing with guys on base or no one on.”

You absolutely do, and hitter swings most definitely change with the count. It’s a terrible, terrible example to use to support a legitimate argument.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Sullivan

In fairness Alex Wood doesnt have situational swings. Have you ever seen him hit

Sammy Sooser
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

I have seen ol’ Bucketfoot Al hit. That stride/stomp out towards third is fantastic.

tb.25
8 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Came here to say this exact thing.

Though, some batters and articles have suggested the 2-strike approach is dying.

Deacon DrakeMember since 2017
8 years ago

I have always thought that the windup was more responsible for injuries. It encourages players to disrupt the timing of their natural learned throwing mechanics in an attempt to gain more velocity or deception.

jfree
8 years ago
Reply to  Deacon Drake

I think the exact opposite is true. For the same reason that cross-training tends to reduce injury compared to doing the same thing all the time every time. The injury study was done in a lab – so it could only measure pitch-by-pitch kinetics not cumulative effect. And something that is statistically insignificant as an individual event can quite easily turn into something that is very significant when assessing injury caused by repetition.

I can see the reasons why the windup is disappearing. More difficult to master the mechanics. More reliever innings and shorter starter outings. The stretch is the high leverage situation anyway. But I’m not so confident that ditching the windup will lead anywhere but more injuries.

And Goofy is distraught – https://youtu.be/rdBYmk4dfLE

CindyJNCMember since 2021
8 years ago

I remember when Alex was first drafted by the Braves out of Georgia. He had a crazy backwards hop after each pitch. Love that working out of the stretch is helping him. I’m still mad the Braves traded him. Would love to see Sean Newcomb trying pitching exclusively out of the stretch. If his control improves he can be a #2 pitcher.

Spa City
8 years ago

As a little league coach, I only ever teach pitching from the stretch. I have never understood the windup – even when I used to use it in high school. Never understood why I was doing it differently. Even 25 years ago I knew there was no difference in the pitches and I preferred the stretch – but I wasn’t brave enough to question it. I assumed I was throwing harder with the windup, but I kind of knew I wasn’t. I am surprised it took this long to happen in the majors.

Baller McCheeseMember since 2016
8 years ago

On the one hand, [some evidence, common sense and testimonials by some of the best pitchers in baseball].

On the other hand, man oh man is that Ross Ohlendorf windup pretty.

Any way you can add a poll between the two, Jeff?

Jetsy Extrano
8 years ago

Poll, heck, could we be granted Taxonomy of Windups Part I?

For that matter I’d watch a modern dance piece with thirty pitchers repeating their luscious windups in polyrhythmic patterns.

johansantana17Member since 2026
8 years ago

The real point on the other hand is deception. A pitcher’s delivery looks substantively different from the stretch than from the windup. A pitcher who gains a large portion of his success from the deception in his windup might lose that advantage if he ditches his windup and pitches exclusively from the stretch if he can’t find a way to maintain that deception.

Sammy Sooser
8 years ago

I recall Hideo Nomo pitching exclusively out of the stretch when he threw that no-hitter in Colorado.

PhilMember since 2026
8 years ago

Totally on board with eliminating the windup. Superfluous movement prior to pitching with seemingly no affect on velocity.

What about slide step? What is the impact on velocity there? I coach little league and high school baseball, and I don’t see a velocity difference going from ‘stretch’ to ‘slide step’. It’s also a more repeatable movement, seems to me, and may even positively impact control.

I would love to see an analysis of the impact of slide step (relative to stretch) on velocity/control.

Sammy Sooser
8 years ago
Reply to  Phil

There’s a modified slide step that’s pretty popular as well. I only know it as a “knee to knee” movement. Out of the stretch, the knee of the lead leg goes back towards the knee of the drive leg very briefly, just to give the pitcher a little bit of a load/gather. Then again, this may just be a slight variation on the slide step, and is not its own thing at all.

DBPanterA
8 years ago
Reply to  Phil

I only speak of personal experience (LHP in college), but I generally used 4 different routines: wind-up, big leg-kick stretch, modified slide step, and slide step. There are so many variables to each delivery to get a pitcher to the point of release, and a good amount is what the pitcher thinks/feels is their best. So much has to do with changing your looks to the runners as well as the hitter to try to obtain an advantage via deception and messing with their timing.

This is anecdotal, but I know when the radar guns came out I personally could get an extra 1-2 MPH using the slide-step vs the other forms (after completing a bullpen and checking the numbers). But mentally I knew I had to get to the point of delivery more quickly.

I perceive the decision of MLB pitchers to abandon the wind-up as a way to simplify their routine so they can repeat it consistently. Whether statistics back up better performance using the stretch and not the wind-up would be interesting to see, but I would argue a pitcher will remember times of failure or less than desirable outcomes more easily, and if they associate that with the wind-up, the wind-up be on the chopping block.

Stovokor
8 years ago

There are parallels to the Walmart- and Amazon-ification of the consumer economy. While those firms employ brilliant methods to improve supply chains and logistics to provide efficiency and low prices, it’s just not as charming as a Main St full of shopkeepers and merchants.

Likewise, as efficient swings and deliveries proliferate, we see fewer of the quirky batting stances and windups that we used to imitate as a kid. For folks more interested in being entertained and participating in shared traditions, rather than observing the results of a competitive market, this is a loss.

Da Bum
8 years ago
Reply to  Stovokor

What a terribly odd analogy. Not specifically wrong but not a great fit either. To make a pun, this came out of left field.

Grim Spontano
8 years ago
Reply to  Stovokor

Absolutely agree

mikejuntMember
8 years ago

I’ve seen Wood on several occasions claim his declining velocity last year was due to mechanical struggle and not fatigue (perhaps actually fatigue-induced mechanical struggle) and that he thinks this will prevent a similar decline this year

tb.25
8 years ago

One reason not mentioned in depth pro-windup is the rhythm aspect. From my time playing (albeit, no time beyond freshman year of high school), the windup was my version of a morning routine – it was rhythmic and set me in good positions.

The stretch can definitely do this too, especially if players never even learn a windup, but there was something unique in how the windup got me focused.

RotoholicMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  tb.25

The thing is, you need to be good at pitching from the stretch no matter what. If you’re bad at it, you’ll never make it to the big leagues. So we’re basically assuming all of these guys have found a way to pitch really good from the stretch. Even if they like the routine of the windup, they’ll still be going through two distinct routines which presents a problem.

Thizzle13
8 years ago
Reply to  tb.25

I like to compare it to how hitters never really stand still. The back and forth swinging motion keeps you loose and fluid. Pitching from the stretch sometimes feels static and maybe even a little rushed, especially when slide stepping. It also brings your body in a forward motion (although slow) which you don’t have to generate by pushing off. Kind of similar like an outfielder already in motion throwing the ball.

Low Outside Curve
8 years ago

Daisuke Matsuzaka’s windup was art, and it was also frustrating in video game form. Felt like a final fantasy cutscene.

Captain Tenneal
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Sullivan

Facing Kershaw in MLB The Show. He stares you down for like 8 seconds, slowly lowers his hands for like 5 more, then finishes his delivery seemingly in slow-motion.

baycommuterMember since 2016
8 years ago

It’s not like this is new stuff. No windup became popular after Don Larsen pitched a perfect game in the 1956 World Series with no windup, which was taught to him and teammate Bob Turley by Yankee pitching coach Jim Turner. Theories differ for why it didn’t catch on, one is that lowering the mound in 1969 made it harder to throw an over-the-top curve with no windup.

RotoholicMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  baycommuter

Some hitters used to walk a lot too, and hit a lot of homeruns, but if the majority don’t understand the benefits of it and it doesn’t get wide adoption, then there is progress to be made.

As for the claim that 12-6 curveballs move less from the stretch, that seems like it’s be easily testable.

Da Bum
8 years ago
Reply to  Rotoholic

Not in 1969 and, as the article says, a lot of this is based on assumptions.

Six Ten
8 years ago

I am onboard with this, but I want to echo the point about windup aesthetics just because.

For a while, Barry Zito was my favorite pitcher, for three reasons. First, that curve was glorious, and how he worked it with a barely-90-in-good-years high fastball was awesome. Second, I liked that he was a hippie weirdo. Third, the first time I watched him I thought his windup was the most aesthetically pleasing thing I’d ever seen on a baseball field. An neat tuck, a quick toe-point kick, and a glide to the plate. All clean, easily repeated, and the perfect balance of sharp and graceful.

Roger Clemens loaded himself up like a cannon, almost as graceful as Zito but with more menace in the movement. Kevin Appier tied up and then unraveled a gangly knot and threw his whole body at the batter. Randy Johnson slowly and calmly created a split-second of extra terror, building up the suspense of what was coming like the silence of a horror movie.

Getting rid of windups seems like an obviously right baseball choice. But the windup also adds so much personality, and as it disappears (and it really should) I expect to have a very grainy video sense of nostalgia about it.

Alan
8 years ago

Great article. Another factor accelerating this trend might be that guys aren’t expected to pitch a complete game any more so whatever effort savings a windup offered is less important.

theojdMember since 2023
8 years ago

I think an Ode to Windups piece from someone would be amazing. maybe someone’s personal top 10 ranking (complete with GIFs of course). Or readers can submit they’re favorites and everyone can vote for a top 10.

Some of my personal favorites with a heavy late 90’s/early aughts skew
Kevin Brown
Javy Vazquez
David Wells
Troy Percival/Trevor Hoffman (no windup, but those big leg kicks oh my)
Mike Mussina
El Duque
Ted Lilly

Jetsy Extrano
8 years ago
Reply to  theojd

Dontrelle Willis.

Old video of Satchel Paige was hypnotic.

TommyLasordid
8 years ago

So many great wind-ups in the past. Fernando comes to mind. I hope this isn’t the beginning of the end, and highly doubt that it is.

MarkMember since 2016
8 years ago

You can be deceptive pitching from the stretch (by varying up the height/speed of a leg kick or the time between coming set and starting the delivery, for instance. I’d think it would still be eliminating some unnecessary movement and timing mechanisms inherent in a conventional windup, which inhibit repeatability. It seems to me like there’s a vast reservoir of deception waiting to be tapped by pitchers who adopt a stretch-only approach, especially those with sub-average velocity.

I’m also surprised to see no discussion of Johnny Cueto, whose windup is at least approximately on par aesthetically with Fernando Valenzuela.