What Can The Phillies Even Do This Winter?
I don’t usually like to look too far ahead to the offseason when the September pennant races are still in full swing. There’s plenty of interesting baseball right now, especially with four of the six divisions still up for grabs, to say nothing of wild card spots. We’ll have months to talk about winter moves; if you remember how many words were spilled on Stephen Drew and Kendrys Morales by writers desperate to fill space in January and February, too many months.
But you understand how fans and employees of teams long since out of the race will be all too happy to turn the page on 2014 as soon as possible, and earlier this week, that’s exactly what Phillies GM Ruben Amaro, Jr. did:
Ruben Amaro Jr. said today there will be more adjustments to the Phillies’ roster in the future, following yesterday’s trade that sent John Mayberry Jr. to Toronto for Minor League third baseman Gustavo Pierre.
“Not that it’s a huge change, but we’re going to have to start churning the roster in a way that it’s going to have to be improved,” Amaro said in the press box at Turner Field.
Does he believe those changes could be significant?
“I do,” he said. “I think we need it. I think we need it because what we have on our roster right now is not working. How much we’ll do will depend on what makes sense for us. We’re still kind of assessing what we have. But I think it would behoove us to make some change because we need to be better.”
You don’t need to come to FanGraphs to know that the Phillies weren’t expected to be a good team this year, aren’t a good team this year and don’t seem to have a bright future. But finally, we’re at least hearing Amaro admit to it. That’s a step in the right direction, probably. So the question, really, is what can he do?
* * *
The Phillies have nine players under contract this season making $8 million or more. Surely, they’ll gain flexibility when one or more of them come off the books, right? Except…
| Name | 2015 age | 2014 salary | 2015 salary |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ryan Howard | 35 | $25m | $25m |
| Cliff Lee | 36 | $25m | $25m |
| Cole Hamels | 31 | $23.5m | $23.5m |
| Chase Utley | 36 | $15m | $10m |
| Jonathan Papelbon | 34 | $13m | $13m |
| A.J. Burnett | 38 | $11.25m | $11.25m |
| Jimmy Rollins | 36 | $11m | $11m |
| Carlos Ruiz | 36 | $8.5m | $8.5m |
| Marlon Byrd | 37 | $8m | $8m |
| Total | 35.4 (avg) | $140.25m | $135.25m |
…oh. Utley’s salary decreases somewhat, but otherwise these guaranteed contracts to (mostly) past-their-prime veterans look to be the gifts that keep on giving. Everyone here will be a year older, and still owed a considerable amount of money. (Rollins will vest his 2015 option this week; Burnett’s exact salary will vary based on his 2014 playing time, and he may yet retire, though as of last week he was undecided.)
While Kyle Kendrick ($7.6m this year) and Mike Adams ($7m in 2014 and a 2015 option that will certainly be declined) will free up some cash, arbitration raises to Ben Revere, Antonio Bastardo and Domonic Brown (if he’s retained) will eat up most of that. Though the Phillies haven’t shown any indication that they’re terribly constrained by salaries, the 2015 Phillies, when you include the arbitration raises, the $3.6m owed to Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez and the usual minimum-salary types that float in and out of a roster, will already been about as expensive as the 2014 Phillies. They won’t be younger, or better, or cheaper. That’s the problem Amaro is facing.
It’s a problem of his own making, of course, and although most of the group listed above actually played well this season, it’s indicative of a larger problem. Back in May, I investigated how most of the 32+ players on the Phillies were performing well, but nearly all of the younger players weren’t. That hasn’t changed, really. Revere is the only hitter under 34 to be worth a single win over replacement. Rookie reliever Ken Giles is the only pitcher under 30 who can say the same. The young Phillies have been so bad that the entire group under 31 has combined for -1.5 WAR, the only team in the negatives.
While almost everyone on the “old and expensive” list above has contributed, most of them have little — negative, even — trade value. Good luck convincing anybody that Ryan Howard’s superficial counting stats are worth the $60m he has remaining, obviously. (If he gets to 100 RBI, he’ll almost certainly join the extremely exclusive “100 RBI, negative WAR” club, currently occupied by Ruben Sierra, Dante Bichette, and three Joe Carter seasons.) That’s not to say that Amaro can’t get some AL team to give Howard a crack as a part-time DH; just that he’ll have to swallow an enormous amount of money and accept little in return.
Lee might have brought back considerable talent had he been dealt in the last two years, or the Phillies could have just shed his salary when the Dodgers claimed him on August waivers. Now, he’s attempting to rehab a serious elbow injury and is all but untradeable. Utley and Rollins have shown little indication to accept a move. Papelbon, though he’s having a good season, has had his value decrease both because he wasn’t traded to help a contender this year and because he’s closer to having his 2016 age-35 option vest. Byrd may yet be dealt this winter, though it seems unlikely, and like the others he will be less valuable since he comes with more age and one less pennant race.
The point here isn’t really to lay out the litany of easily-avoidable mistakes the Phillies have made, because you’re familiar with all of that. The point is that if we take Amaro’s comments at face value, that he’s finally ready to make considerable changes to this team, he’s still limited in what he can actually do. With one exception, he can’t really trade any of his productive players, at least not for the kind of return that would actually help build for the future.
The exception there is Hamels, obviously, who has $96m over the next four years, is in the middle of yet another outstanding season, and represents a cheaper alternative, at least financially, to what Max Scherzer, James Shields and Jon Lester are likely to get. Of course, Dave laid out in multiple posts in July why the Phillies should have already traded Hamels. They still can, but they may have missed their best opportunity.
So Amaro can still trade Hamels this winter, and maybe he will, with teams rich with dollars and prospects like the Cubs, Dodgers, Red Sox or other interested parties. If he does, the Phillies will get several good prospects for him. But the rest of that group in the table above is either unmovable or unlikely to bring back much of interest, which means the Phillies either sell low or stand pat, and that limits their flexibility to add parts. Even if they did manage to dump a ton of salary to jump back into the free agency game, the available talent, especially on offense, is going to make for a disappointing market at best. It’s not like they have much coming up through the system, anyway, not with J.P. Crawford several years away, Jesse Biddle having a lost year, and September call-up Maikel Franco putting up a mere .299 Triple-A OBP this year.
Of course, the change Phillies fans want the most seems unlikely to happen. Pat Gillick, serving as interim team president while David Montgomery tends to his health, said in no uncertain terms that Amaro would be back in 2015. Never trust anything a baseball executive says publicly, of course, but if they wanted Amaro gone, there’s no reason to not have done it already. Amaro will remain, and it’s great that he can say he’s ready for change. It just remains to be seen how he can even make that happen.
Mike Petriello used to write here, and now he does not. Find him at @mike_petriello or MLB.com.
Phillies off-season strategy:
1. Trade Hamels
2. Release Howard — at this point, his roster spot is more valuable to give to Ruf than his sunk cost salary
3. Cross fingers that Burnett retires
4. Install Giles as closer in ST 2015 so that Papelbon’s 2016 option doesn’t vest with 100 games finished over 2014-15. Papelbon will lose his mind, but too bad.
5. Wait for 2017 when Lee and Utley are off the books and you “only” have Howard’s $10M buyout
“Install Giles as closer in ST 2015 so that Papelbon’s 2016 option doesn’t vest with 100 games finished over 2014-15. Papelbon will lose his mind, but too bad.”
Considering Papelbon’s numbers this season, unless he showed up to ST without an elbow, he would almost certainly file a grievance and probably win.
Would Papelbon have grounds to file a grievance if the Phils did that? Interesting question. Yes it costs him money but it can’t be that the Phillies are unable to groom his successor at closer because of his contract. (Leaving aside for a moment the whole question of whether pitching the 9th as opposed to any other inning is actually a skill.)
It would just be far too blatant as a move to game him out of his option vesting. Giles has been better, but Papelbon has been effective, especially this year.
There’s little precedent for it unless Giles absolutely blows Papelbon away in ST. David Robertson set up while outperforming Rivera in some seasons towards the end, Daniel Bard set up for Papelbon in 2009-2011 despite pitching better, etc.
I feel that Papelbon would have to fail utterly for the next few weeks and then in ST for the Phillies to be able to get away with it.
And even if Papelbon were to somehow lose that grievance, other free agents would take note. Who would want to sign with the Phillies after they’d pulled something like that?
Frankly, I don’t think they’d even try. I figure they’ll trade him to someone who either doesn’t mind the option vesting or will use him in a setup role.
The K-Rod situation a few years ago got really messy and the Mets solved it by trading him elsewhere as a setup man. Little room for a real grievance there.
You want him to show up without an elbow… Let’s just say he may have an unfortunate accident.
Papelbon’s 2016 is the least of the Phils problems… scratch that, isn’t a problem at all. he’s performing, as is Utley. These are not problems.
They needed to trade Cliff Lee last winter when they could still have gotten something for him. Oh well. Their only hope to turn the corner would be to deal Hamels which is unfortunate cause he’s been a terrific Phillie (as if a Met fan like me cares…) and it will put a pretty big dent in their rotation but he’ll yield a phat return.
And maybe the Dodgers or Angels come calling on Papelbon… Marlon Byrd has been great and there is no huge need to deal him but if he returns some nice prospects then you pursue that too.
That’s more or less all you can do. It isn’t like Ryan Howard is holding some great 1B prospect back so I don’t see the urgency to dump him frankly.
The bad part is that even though Papelbon has been fine, PHI is still underwater on that contract. The only relievers who would have been a clear win on that deal over the last 3 years are Kimbrel and Chapman, and nobody sane could possibly have expected Papelbon to put up numbers like that at this point in his career. I agree that overpaying your closer by a few million isn’t that big a deal in PHI’s grand scheme of things, as long as he stays healthy, but good lord. PHI had a guy come in, stay healthy, and do about what you’d expect him to do if healthy, and they’re still getting buried on the deal. They couldn’t win the contract, they’d have to be really lucky to break even, the expectation is clearly underwater, and it could easily have been a complete disaster if he’d been one of the 5 bazillion recent pitcher injuries.
Greg Holland says hello
Actually, your filter for “100 RBI, Negative WAR” was set at -0.5. There are an additional 5 seasons of 100 RBI, negative WAR between 0 and -0.5 led by Tony Batista’s 2004 with the Expos
Man, it’s hard to pull off worthless 40 dinger years…..sweet Batista.
I think Tony B was actually worth positive WAR in his only 40-HR season, with a 2.7 fWAR in 2000. In his -0.5 WAR season with the Expos, he “only” hit 32 dingers. And “only” drove in 110.
You are correct. Mark Reynolds went deep 37 times with a -0.1 WAR in 2011. The thing about Batista was he had some value in the field. He didn’t strikeout a ridiculous amount and although BB’s were not his thing he got to 50 once with Baltimore. Very strange player.
I always enjoyed his batting stance. Stand facing the pitcher, then pivot in at the hips. Always was fun to emulate in the batting cage.
32 dingers ain’t what it used to be though – 37 players hit 30 or more in 2004. We might get to 12 or 13 this year.
Didn’t see it mentioned, but Utley could gain 5 million more if he miraculously stays healthy again. And given the Phillies ‘luck’ he will stay healthy.
Utley’s still a good player..
The Fillies will have to trot out this same long-in-the-tooth lineup until they can put the high $ former studs out to pasture. Guaranteed contracts are the curse of any GM.
Just neighing.
#KeepNotGraphs
Why are you still here?
Some people find him funny.
Who?
And why?
He makes me miss all the everdisos.
Someone call me!!??!!
Amaro’s problem is (as you say) trade value rather than payroll. His belated recognition that the team is rebuilding is a huge thing, because it means going young and cheap. In this situation, it becomes worthwhile to eat salary, even a lot of it, to get prospects. As some of these older guys are still productive, that would create trade value, though at a cost.
There’s talk around Boston of a possible Mookie Betts for Hamels deal. Personally, I’d rather see the Sox offer Jackie Bradley Jr. and Will Middlebrooks plus a lower level prospect for him, but I don’t know if that would be enough. Either one would give the Phillies an outstanding defensive CF, but I’m pretty unsure how much additional they’d have to put in to land Hamels.
That’s been completely unfounded. Talking heads have suggested the the Sox are interested and that it would likely COST Betts (And Owens and Swihart, no thanks), not that it’s a consideration.
I like Betts a lot, and him *plus* Owens and Swihart would be a complete non-starter in my book. I’d rather see the Sox go out and re-sign Lester, who’s indicated a willingness to come back.
If you’re trading for a true ace under team control on a reasonable contract for the next few years, you’re going to have to give up valuable pieces. The Phillies aren’t going to just give him to the Sox because you want them to.
Nobody’s arguing that the Phillies should give Hamels away.
That said, that’s consensus three top 100 prospects (Maybe top 50). That’s just too much for a team to give up for a guy who is making literal market value. Specifically one who’s more a 1A than a real ace (Mind you, I always felt the same of Lester, but that’s more semantics, neither is on the level of a Kershaw or Felix).
If the Sox want to continue to operate with some high cost veterans, they need to be able to supplement that with cheap, young pieces of good value. They can’t do that while trading said pieces for more expensive veterans.
Not to say that the Phillies shouldn’t ask for the moon, he’s their best trade chip and they’re a mess. I just don’t think it’s a smart move for the Sox.
Yeah, I think it would be Betts+ONE of Swihart and Owens, then some supplemental pieces like Bradley and/or Coyle.
There is not that much value in hamels contract. If it cost 3 prospects it would be much much cheAper to just sign Lester and keep the prospects. Betts alone would almost be an overpay for hamel
Bradley and Middlebrooks suck. If you’re lucky, they might bring back AJ Burnett, but that’s a stretch.
Agreed but if I’m the Sox their is zero chance I give up Betts, Owens and Swiihart. That is ridiculous. All three land right around the top 30 prospects in the game. I understand it from Philly’s perspective as they have to get “A HAUL” for Hamels as he is really their only valuable trade piece that can bring back anything worthwhile. I don’t care how reasonable his contract may be. No way on that one. Maybe Betts, Coyle, Ranaudo, Manuel Margot would be fair for Hamels. I still wouldn’t do it if I’m the Sox. With their influx of young talent they can afford to gamble on one of the big free agent starters and hope some of the younger guys pan out. Yes Bradley sucks and so does Midlebrooks but I’m not sure you trade your leadoff hitter of the future plus prime prospects for Hamels because that is the case. You just move on without Hamels. That works for me. Never trade with a desperate team like the Phillies because reality gets skewed.
The Sox aren’t re-signing Lester at 50% more than what they already offered him and that pretty much means they can forget Scherzer too. Their best shot is probably for Shields (33). That’s just one SPer tho. It isn’t exactly like they have a bunch of aces in waiting to fill the rest of the rotation. There would certainly be lots of interest in trading for Hamels and the Sox have the prospects to make it happen. And yeah, Betts probably leads that package.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hamels plus Papelbon go together to Boston either.
If we had to take Papelbon, I’d expect a deep discount on Hamels.
why? Papelbon has had an excellent year and is signed only thru 2016 (assuming his option vests). Makes sense for a team trying to contend who can take on the money.
That’s just that, he’s had AN excellent year. One. Singular. He’s been effective, but he’s also at the end of his contract that scared Boston off in the first place. I don’t touch that deal with a ten foot pole.
You’re making it seem like the $13M would be problematic for the Sox. It won’t. And by taking him it might reduce the prospect cost of the deal by a little bit.
I bet someone said that in 2011 about the Phillies when they signed him. Now it’s an albatross, just like many others said it would be, regardless of performance.
The Sox have deep pockets, but even a deep pocketed team needs to consider sunk costs like throwing over $10MM at a closer in his mid-thirties.
Like I said, I’d take him on if it reduced the prospect cost, but you can’t throw all of your prospects at high priced veterans and expect that to be a sustainable business model. That’s exactly what got the Phillies into their current mess and it’s exactly what the Dodgers saved the Red Sox from two years ago.
there’s a bit of a difference between Carl Crawford at 7 years and 140M and Papelbon at 2/26M doncha think?
It’s the combination of costs.
Crawford’s sunk cost wouldn’t have been as much of an issue if they didn’t also have the sunk costs of Beckett, Lackey (At the time) and Youkilis as well as various other good but relatively expensive players (Like Gonzalez).
Operating under a mentality of “Even if this guy’s not worth it, they’ve still got a lot of money” for too long results in a pile of similar contracts which will, in time, overwhelm a team. That’s what’s happening in Philadelphia. Howard’s the only big contract they have that’s a completely sunk cost, but the combination of his deal with those of Hamels, Utley, Lee, Papelbon and Byrd has left them in a position where they don’t have the money to fix their many issues. That’s been compounded by Amaro’s complete disregard for maintaining a farm system (Between trading away all of their prospects and his refusal to settle for anything but top prospects for all of his big contracts to rebuild) has left them where they are.
You might want to amend your third sentence to “Red Sox fans like to think that all three land right around the top 30 prospects in the game.”
Betts is top 20. The other two are closer to the 50 mark.
If the Sox want Hamels, it’ll cost Betts, one of Owens and Swihart, plus a guy like like Coyle. They might not have to thrown in Coyle if they take Pap.
Also, Jonathan, when you say that Papelbon has had “AN excellent year,” which year are you referring to? It’s unclear, because that’s an accurate description of every season he’s had before and after 2010.
Yeah I was going to say Betts plus 2 arms plus a 4th prospect like Henry Ramos maybe. But I could see Betts plus Swihart plus an arm also being doable. Hamels is young, coming off a great year and has a very reasonable deal relative to what the comparable FA starters are going to get this winter so he’s going to command a good package.
Middlebrooks sucks and he’s always sucked (He never had the approach to succeed in the majors).
Bradley’s been sucking, but he at least he has upside. Even if his bat never comes around, he’s got the defense to be a major league backup as an absolute floor. If his bat comes around to league average, he’s a 3+ WAR player.
I do not disagree with anything above I just don’t really want to give up 6 years of a cost controlled leadoff hitter for Hamels. He is coming to the AL East at 31 years old. Too me the Math does not work. No one can even be sure that Hamels would be better than Owens next year and Betts looks like he is for real. Whether Cherington and co. want to do this is up to them. As a Red Sox fan I’d prefer they didn’t. As far as Papelbon…….
You gotta give something to get something.
The Sox don’t have to do that at every opp. One trade does not necessarily lead to another of the exact same kind.
As for cost controlled leadoff hitter, that only does you any good if he actually produces enough to make sense. Not like you can just keep adding up the WARs as though you can play (many) more than 9 bats in your lineup everyday.
And it’s silly to suggest Owens just might be better than Hamels next year. Sure, that’s not impossible, especially w/ the current reality of frequent TJ happenings, but com’on now. Just plain silly to throw that out as a remotely significant justification… :-p
Actually, anyone who doesn’t own three Red Sox jerseys is pretty damn sure that a player who’s averaged 5.3 rWAR over the past 5 years will be better than a 22 year old who currently has a 3.6 FIP in AAA next year.
For reference, Cole Hamels hasn’t had as high an FIP as Owens does now since 2010.
Ruben Amaro is not a Red Sox fan. He doesn’t care that you don’t want to give up 6 years of a cost controlled leadoff hitter for Hamels. The fact that the Red Sox can give him 6 years of a cost controlled lead off hitter, and a possible number two starter or a first division starting catcher, is the only reason he will even consider trading Hamels to them.
Who cares about the AL East? Hamels could rip through that. The AL West is much tougher now
Betts is too much for the Red Sox to give up for Hamels straight up, and the Phils already have a good 2nd baseman in Utley. So Betts doesn’t line up for this.
Something like Bradley and Owens might be the best bet. Even without hitting a lick, Bradley would be a probable starter in Philly over whoever else they can throw out there besides Revere and Byrd.
Sorry aj Burnett has negative contract value this year. Ie he costs more than his war. You would need to add a prospect to give Burnett away
After seeing Vernon Wells traded essentially straight up for Mike Napoli, I’ll never again believe any trade is impossible
Good point. Desperate teams take desperate measures. How dumb was that. Then the Blue Jays move Napoli. That was dumb too.
But you’ve already got a future stud catcher in this Arencibia kid.
I’m pretty sure they were thinking about d’Arnaud…
Bright spot is that Giles has been straight up fantastic. Amongst pitchers with a minimum of 30 IP, he has the third highest K% at 40%. Compiling 1.3 WAR in only 36.2 IP is certainly awesome. It’s unfortunate that Papelbon has that vesting option, because the Phillies don’t need him anymore and they could certainly use a little more financial flexibility.
Between Ruben’s insane hopes for trade packages and the bloated contracts of all these players, I wish them good luck, they will need it.
The main issue is the fact that he insists on adding all these vesting options on their contracts and making a player who may be attractive on a one year deal scary. Teams can use Byrd, Utley, Rollins, Papelbon for a year, but not much after that.
Anyone would take Utley for multiple years, if he stays healthy enough for that option to vest. That was actually a smart move.
Unfortunately for Amaro, Utley’s got his 10-5 and isn’t going anywhere.
Making it less than smart, that 10-5 did.
Eh. If they get good value on the contract, it’s smart. Letting him go for nothing doesn’t help them. They don’t need salary relief, they need talent. Plus, there is value in keeping around a fan favorite and one of the most universally liked players in Philadelphia sports history.
Yeah! They have a very, very good player, who’s beloved by the fanbase (and, unlike Sox fans, once Philly fans really love you, they’ll never stop) on a far below market contract for the next couple of years?!
Stupid Ruin Tomorrow! What was he thinking?!
What i see: “100 RBI, negative WAR” club, currently occupied by Ruben Sierra, Dante Bichette, and three Joe Carter seasons.)”
What I think: I love Joe Carter, that home run was dope.
Joe Carter is enjoying life, wearing his WS rings and saying WAR, what is it good for?
Am I finally seeing an end to the Ruben jokes?
It’s a start. Loooong way to go toward getting the team back to respectability, but the first step is admitting there’s a problem. It’s like AA.
Step 9 is gonna be a bitch.
What problem?
The market have not recognised that I am a genius
I don’t know, some of that is firmly in your lap Ruben.
No, we love rye humor around here.
Just don’t forget the sour kraut!
Ruben is a joke. A bad one.
The Phillies make me feel like a bad person. #Schadenfreude
Cole Hamels doesn’t even have that much excess value on his contract; I think people are overestimating what he will bring in.
I think a lot of people miss the point that really the Phillies problem is not that they have Howard and (unhealthy) Lee for $25 million each, but really that they just don’t have any good young players on the team. The Braves, for example, are burdened with Uggla and BJ Upton next year for over $25 million, and operate with a much lower budget, but no one would write off 2015 as next to hopeless for them.
No team is going to make a trade with them that changes that with the exception of Hamels, and even then you are taking away several WAR in that transaction. Long story short, it’s good to be a fan of a different NL East team.
Uggla is long gone dude…..
His contract isn’t, dude…..
Is Ruben Amaro Jr. the worst GM in baseball? Wish I could make this comment a poll, he’s certainly bottom five. Several bad contracts to aging talent, poor track record drafting and on top of it all Phillies player development is horrid.
I’m not sure anyone will vote for anyone else.
I hope Ruben Amaro Jr. gets fired and then gets hired…by the Marlins.
How exactly are the arbitration raises to Bastardo, Revere, and Brown going to be anywhere near equivalent to $14M combined from their current salaries based upon this year’s performances and similar comps for them?
Amaro double-downed on this roster yet again this offseason and it backfired on him for several reasons including Lee missing most of the season, Burnett turning out to have a hernia, and the pathetic performances by Brown & Howard.
Amaro largely will just be able to tinker around the edges again this offseason, the team will almost certainly struggle next year, and both Amaro (whose contract is up) and Sandberg will move on.
Phils have some younger talent that might help them including Franco who they just brought up and have had 2 good consecutive drafts but yeah the new GM in ’16 is going to have to work through some bad contracts his first year in particular while continuing to restock the cupboard.
Right. Between Adams and Kendrick coming off the books plus the ~$6M that already came off the books with the Hernandez and Mayberry trades, the Phils should have some money to spend (> $10M and probably closer to $15M) if Burnett returns.
Does anyone from Fangraphs understand how a East Coast baseball team works? Trading Hamels would signal the franchise’s rebuilding which would kill attendance. Fangraphs does not realize that every MLB team is a business apparently as it is not your money. Actually, if we had a healthy Cliff Lee and effective Burnett we might be in the Wild Card race.
This is factually untrue. Phillies attendance has dropped for the last few years. Fans come out for winning teams, not for one very good but not top-10 pitcher.
Also, you don’t have those things.
Sorry to burst your bubble Ruben. If we go through the squard of every team in the nl east. The phillies have the worst squard in talent by a long way. By Pythagorean record phillies should hAve 4 win less