What’s the Plan in Cincinnati?

(Photo: Hayden Schiff)
The last time the Reds won more than 80 games in a season, they actually won 90 games in a season — and a spot in the 2013 National League Wild Card game. They lost that game 6-2 to the Pirates and then lost another 86, 98, 94, and 94 games in each of the four seasons that followed. In 2018, the Reds are projected to lose 90 games, and the incomparable Joey Votto is projected to produce another 4.4 wins for the club for which he’s recorded a line of .313/.428/.541 over his 6,141 big-league plate appearances.
Votto is 34 this year, and while his skills profile suggests he’s got at least a few good seasons left in him, he won’t be around forever. So what’s the plan in Cincinnati to make best use of the years he has left? It’s really not entirely clear.
For a while there, it seemed as if the plan was to move Brandon Phillips to make room for José Peraza (check), keep Votto at first (check), and ride a perfectly inoffensive offense (753 runs last year, 14th-most league-wide) built around some solid young players — and, of course, Votto — back into contention. In fact, heading in the 2017 season, there was a fair bit of reason to be optimistic about the Reds, as noted recently by Charlie Scrabbles over at Red Reporter:
Billy Hamilton, Adam Duvall, Scott Schebler, Eugenio Suarez, Jose Peraza, Tucker Barnhart, Robert Stephenson, Amir Garrett, Brandon Finnegan, Anthony DeSclafani, Cody Reed, Rookie Davis, Michael Lorenzen, Raisel Iglesias (just to name a few) were all in their 20s and under team control for multiple seasons. Also, Joey Votto, although nearing his mid-30s, still capable of straining the English language’s ability to adequately describe his baseball-hitting prowess. The 2015 and 2016 drafts had infused the minor league system with a number of ace prospects, including Tyler Stephenson, Antonio Santillan, Nick Senzel, Taylor Trammell, and Chris Okey. They spent an enormous amount of money (around $30 million) on high-quality international prospects like Vladimir Gutierrez, Alfredo Rodriguez, and Jose Israel Garcia.
The problem, of course, was pitching. The Reds didn’t seem quite confident enough in their ability to compete to actually go out and spend money on anything approximating competent starting pitching, and so instead went out and got something approximating 2016 Scott Feldman — namely, 2017 Scott Feldman. Needless to say, it didn’t work out. Cincinnati’s pitching was dreadful in 2017, and although some of that was due to injuries to some good young pitchers (DeSclafani and Finnegan), a lot of it was due to the players, uh, not being very good.
We’re already past the point where the Reds are going to do anything particularly exciting this offseason. But let’s imagine that another middling season convinces Dick Williams that what he’d really like to do in 2019 is win an awful lot of baseball games. Or at least an awful lot more than his team has been winning lately. This is not, you know, out of the question, because 2019 will be Dick Williams’ fourth year on the job, and that’s a year during which ownership tends to start tapping its fingers on the table ominously before starting to speak during a performance review.
Anyway: 2019. The Reds will likely have three free agents that offseason: Devin Mesoraco, one of their catchers; Cliff Pennington, a backup middle infielder; and Vance Worley, a relief pitcher/old-timey clown. Surveying this group, and depending on how Tucker Barnhart’s 2018 has gone, our fearless hero Dick might choose to re-sign Mesoraco to a two- or three-year deal with a modest annual value, on the premise that he’s both (a) a known quantity to the Reds and their pitchers, and (b) occasionally hits, too (last year aside). Pennington, clearly, can walk and be easily replaced, if so desired, and Worley may or may not be worth re-signing depending on which other relievers the Reds like on the market (we’ll get to that).
As we’ve discussed, the lineup is already mostly adequate. But depending on how Scooter Gennett’s 2018 goes (they can’t all be four-homer games) and how Peraza continues to develop at the plate, the Reds might want some help up the middle — or in the outfield, which produced only about four wins collectively in 2017. A bat, somewhere, is the point, but not for too much money. Maybe it’s Logan Forsythe. Maybe it’s Marwin Gonzalez. Someone solid, unobjectionable, and not too expensive, and someone who’ll make the lineup just that tiny little bit stronger heading into spring training. Someone who’s just enough, if the Reds feel they can swing the money.
They might not feel that way, though. With Mesoraco re-signed or Barnhart in house, the Reds must turn to the pitching, and that’s where things get interesting. And quite expensive. I had the wonderful Dan Szymborski run the numbers on the pitchers who ZiPS thinks would most benefit from pitching in Great American Ballpark for half of their games:
| Name | WAR Benefit |
|---|---|
| Bryan Mitchell | +0.453 |
| Alex Reyes | + 0.377 |
| Brandon McCarthy | + 0.373 |
| Nathan Eovaldi | +0.333 |
| Noah Syndergaard | +0.312 |
| Lance McCullers | +0.299 |
| James Paxton | +0.299 |
| Aaron Sanchez | +0.272 |
| Luiz Gohara | +0.261 |
| Dallas Keuchel | +0.259 |
These numbers are for 2018, but unless something about these pitchers’ profiles changes dramatically over the course of the next 12 months, the list will look broadly the same a year from now. And, what do you know, three of these pitchers (highlighted in yellow) are available as free agents next season. Imagine with me, for a moment, if the Reds, next offseason, really honestly and truly took a run at Keuchel, one of McCarthy and Eovaldi, and one or two solid relievers. That’d still leave space for DeSclafani, Finnegan, Luis Castillo, and maybe even Homer Bailey too, if you’d like him — and it’d tremendously improve a team that, with some better pitching, might be pretty darn close to a Wild Card spot.
Is all this even possible? Maybe, actually. Cot’s has Cincinnati’s 2019 obligations at $61.3 million. Throw in an extra $20 million for Mesoraco plus arbitration raises, etc., and you’re looking at something like $81 million necessary to keep the current Red core in place through that season. How much higher could they go? Well, this year they’re projected to enter the year with a $95.4 million payroll, and as recently as 2015 they managed to spend $115.4 million on baseball players. I’m of the opinion that they could stretch a bit farther than that, but that opinion is unsubstantiated and your mileage may vary. Let’s just say they can go that high again, then. That’s $35 million in AAV that the Reds could throw around next offseason, should they so choose.
Will they? Don’t know. Should they? I think so. If the league landscape a year from now looks anything like we think it might, the Reds would only have to add 10 wins to their projected 2018 total to come within shouting distance of the top-10 teams in the league. That’s a tall order, but it’s not totally out of the question, either, if they put money into doing it and land a few carefully chosen targets. I think $35 million a year could buy you Dallas Keuchel and some back-of-the-rotation innings-eater. Surely it can buy something. It’d have been better if they’d done something like this this offseason, sure, but that’s also been true of each of the last three or four years. Joey Votto only has a few more good seasons left. Maybe 2019 will be the year the Reds build him a winner.
Rian Watt is a contributor to FanGraphs based in Seattle. His work has appeared at Vice, Baseball Prospectus, The Athletic, FiveThirtyEight, and some other places too. By day, he works with communities around the world to end homelessness.
Interesting article, but it oddly doesn’t mention Homer Bailey, who is signed through 2019.
Added a note — to be honest, I’d sort of written him off for ’19, but it should have been in the piece. Thanks!
Likely because it is difficult to project what, if anything the Reds will get from Bailey in the next two season. I think it unlikely that he manages to regain his 2013 form. But right now steamer has him projected at 1.1 fWAR for 2018 and if that was a Vegas over/under line, I wouldn’t touch it.
It is hard to say. He was terrible last year, but it wasn’t due to lack of stuff, he still has his mid-90s fastball. His command was off though, but that can be explained away due to basically not pitching for nearly 3 years.
I think he could still be useful, underline could. But, it is hard to be overly optimistic, not to mention the possibility of another injury.
“That’d still leave plenty of space for DeScalfini, Finnegan, and whoever your third favorite young Reds hurler is…”
Mine is Luis Castillo.
It’s pretty hard to write an optimistic article about “can the Reds compete in 2019” without Luis Castillo in it.
I like him, too–I guess I just don’t see as much separation between him and the others as others do, though that’s an opinion that could look really bad after this year.
I think a lot of people were swayed by this article.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-reds-ace-in-the-making-is-already-made/
At least I was.
Ehh, that is a very strong opinion. I would venture 95% of the baseball following population has Castillo as their ace.
Curious why you feel that way. Desclafini has been hurt since 2015 and Finnegan has really been barely above replacement level in 240 major league innings. Castillo clearly seems like the ace of that staff.
Castillo is very good. I worry a lot about his sequencing, because I think he’s gotten away with some things because of his stuff.
DeSclafani has been hurt, yes, but strikes out nearly as many batters and walks fewer. He’s nowhere close in terms of stuff but uses it in a way that makes me feel more confident in the range of possible outcomes for him going forward.
Finnegan is the weakest of the group, I think, and unacceptably off the plate at times, but I’ve just always just enjoyed watching him pitch; maybe it’s his height, which is the same as mine.
Again, my contention isn’t that Castillo sucks (he manifestly does not), just that he’s my third-favorite young Red pitcher.
I like watching Finnegan pitch too. He seems fiery. Hopefully he can get healthy…but regardless I think he goes to the pen.
It would be helpful for you from a credibility perspective to recognize this opinion is probably not widely shared, and to acknowledge that in your argument.
The projection systems don’t agree with it, recent results in both health and performance don’t agree with it, and my guess is that scouts watching stuff wouldn’t agree with it either. To say “I don’t like his sequencing” seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill in the larger context here.
I’m with you Rian. A quick look at the numbers and three stand out to me from last year: a .247 BABIP, 80.1% LOB, and 58.8 GB%. He could keep it up, but fans would be better to have tempered expectations for Castillo.
I feel like this same plan (sign a good pitcher and then another okay pitcher that will absorb innings) could be laid out for the Braves, Phillies, and Padres (and maybe others). Those teams project roughly the same in 2018 — the Braves and Padres project better and would thus have fewer wins to add than the Reds — and seemingly have better prospects in the pipeline. All three teams also project to have less money on their books for 2019.
Plus, the Cubs and Cardinals still exist, and the 2018 Pirates project to be 8 games better than the 2018 Reds, to say nothing of the Brewers.
I guess what I’m saying is, I think the Reds have an awful lot more work to do than to sign a pitcher or two to go with a re-signed Mesoraco, and sign a utility guy. They aren’t as well positioned as some of their rebuilding peers either in terms of money or prospects, their division is strong at the top, and all of this assumes Votto is still Votto at age 35-36.
Yes, the same plan could definitely be laid out for a number of teams in similar positions. I think they should execute on it too, if possible.
As for the Cubs and Cardinals existing–I mean, they always will, or at least some reasonably good team at the top of the standings. I don’t think the Reds can base whether or not they work hard to improve on where the rest of the division appears to be (especially when projecting out into the future past a year or two). There’s just too much uncertainty in the game, I think, to fold before the cards are on the table. You’d hate for them to finally arrive at a season they could have contended in and realize they couldn’t because they weren’t ready for it.
I doubt the Reds actually would spend money to keep Mesoraco considering that all signs point to Barnhart getting the majority of the playing time in a year where Mesoraco is actually starting out healthy. Barnhart’s younger, healthier, a league-average catcher (with a little upside), and most importantly, cost-controlled.
Yeah, if Barnhart comes along and Mesoraco fades, they could easily just let Mesoraco walk and use the savings on pitching.
I would say that Mesoraco has already faded…he had one good year and it was 2014.
Mesoraco is another guy who won bigly by signing an early contract extension.
I lost it at “old-timey clown.”
Never change, Vance “The Pants” Worley.
I don’t generally read Reds Reporter, but Charlie Scrabbles is an amazing name for a baseball beat writer. He should get hired by professional media on that basis alone!
It is a bit puzzling that he hasn’t been picked up somewhere. Fits the job description to the letter.
Red Reporter has a stable of talented writers, that makes it worth your time to read. Unfortunately, the stable has gotten a bit smaller over the last few years, as some have stepped down due to family and/or professional obligations. Also, I’m guessing it is hard to muster up the enthusiasm to volunteer to write high quality articles on a near daily bases for a team that is bad, and doesn’t look like it is going to be good in the near future. But, that is not a dis on the current writing staff, they are still very talented, there are just a smaller number of them.
Tucker Barnhart is the catcher for the Reds, I doubt they take away his starting spot after winning the GG. Mesoraco hasn’t had significant playing time since his breakout 2014, injuries galore. He’s a big question mark at this point. And no mention of Luis Castillo, likely their best SP?
No mention of Luis Castillo in a future Reds article?
I think 2019 is a reasonable but optimistic goal for the beginning of a contention window, since Senzel, Mahle, Romano, and Winker will have a full season to complement Votto, Castillo, deSclafani, future-MVP* Eugenio Suarez., and whichever one of Schebler/Duvall turns the corner.
They play in a brutal division though, so they’ll definitely need some more production out of CF or SS, whether that comes from the incumbents or someone else. So either they would need to sign a free agent like Rian suggests, or wait until some of their other guys come up.
*I didn’t say when…
I think the Reds should try Iglesias out at starting again. A valuable reliever is not critical to their current competitive arc, and most of the other starters they have been trying to develop have been problematic.
Edited the piece slightly in response to two (fair) comments I’ve gotten, summarized below:
* What about Barnhart? It’s a fair question. If he has another solid campaign, he should probably be the choice at catcher, meaning Mesoraco would walk. I think Mesoraco’s upside is enough that he may be worth keeping around, but I should have been clearer about that. Updated the language accordingly.
*Whither Luis Castillo? An earlier version of the piece had him as “your third favorite young Reds hurler,” which is because he is, in fact, my third favorite Reds hurler. But apparently there’s some rule about including him by name in articles about the Reds, so his name now appears there. I happen to be more down on him than others, but it’s perfectly reasonable to think that that’s a terrible opinion that will be made apparent by his breakout 2018. We shall see.
As always, thanks for the engagement!
Welcome to Fangraphs. You’ll learn the rules soon enough. Make a sacrificial offering to Mike Trout every solstice, don’t write positive articles on the Reds without mentioning Luis Castillo, and don’t talk to Cistulli when he’s high (which is always).
Loved the article, but you’ve gotta admit: missing Castillo was a big miss.
Still using ZIPS, he’s projected to be out best pitcher this season. It’s fair, and even encouraged, to have your opinion, but leaving him out of an article geared towards 2019 seems off.
Losing. The plan is losing.
Why would those pitchers specifically stand to improve at GABP?
Ground ball/soft contact profile
Given the low price on free agents now, why not buy now instead of next year unless they think the price will stay low? If, e.g., Arrieta would be a good fit for GABP (I have no idea), why not go in now? And he isn’t even a “Free Agent Land-mine” That is, if you think there is a good chance you will make all those moves next year, why not start now?
Its not like buying Hosmer. Or at least try Fister?
The only reason is to preserve playing time for their young guys/prospects. As is, they’ll have several young pitchers(Finnegan, Castillo, and probably Stephenson with a few others ready to fill in) who are trying to prove their worth as well as spots available for Winker, Peraza, and probably Senzel come May/June. The opportunity is there though and they should take it if they get the chance.
Surprised not to see a mention of Winker…admittedly small sample in 2017, but clearly has potential as a pure hitter
The Reds have, basically, two paths forward:
1. The premise of this article; or
2. FREE JOEY VOTTO!
Love the article! I’m not sure about $20M covering all of their arbitration cases plus Mesoraco though. Scooter ($6M), Hamilton ($5M), Suarez ($4M), Lorenzen ($1.5M), and Disco ($1M) would amount to roughly $18M with just modest raises. But Suarez and Disco will probably receive substantial raises in their 2nd Arb year if they perform well. Duvall, Finnegan, Peraza, and Schebler all enter their first Arb year in 2019 as well. My guess is that the savings of Mesoraco coming off the books will largely be used up in Homer’s raise and arbitration raises/new cases. All in all, they’ll be sitting around the same payroll next year even before adding any impact free agents. That is, unless they cut bait with some of their Arb players as well (like Scooter, Duvall or Schebler, and/or Peraza).
Can the Reds sign Brandon McCarthy’s twitter account?
The plan in Cincinnati the baseball equivalent of hiding under a pile of coats and hope everything turns out OK.
Missing on Castillo was a big whiff. His development is critical for the Reds to have a chance at being competitive. They have done a decent job at developing mid to back end rotation guys, which is important at their payroll level (you can’t afford to pay market rates for 3-5 starters when you’re Cincy, Pitt, etc.). Long term, maybe Castillo is a 2. And I’m sure Reds fans such as myself would accept that with open arms. The main premise of the article (signing a #1) is a good one. A Keuchel+Castillo front end along with whoever emerges from the 6-7 candidates for 3-5 would represent a solid WC contender with the Reds’ offense. Hopefully ownership falls out of love with Billy Hamilton and allows his trade to free up space for a high-OBP replacement.
Apparent breakout in 2018? He broke out in 2017! Nearly 2 war in less than half a season. A very conservative projection on this site has him as their 2nd or 3rd best player, 2.7x better than Desclafini in WAR.
When it comes to starting pitching, often times you can use fantasy rankings to get a good gauge of how the public values a pitcher. Here is the ADP for the starters:
Castillo is the 25th drafted pitcher (ahead of Berrios, Gray, Stroman, Wood, Hendricks) whereas DeScalafini is 108th pitcher drafted right behind Matt Harvey and right ahead of Lackey. Finnegan is down at 124 behind Puk, and Wheeler and right ahead of Whitley.
That is definitely cool to see which pitchers would benefit most from moving to GABP, but I think it would be interesting to explore why that is, something that the article doesn’t really go in to.
I was curious about that myself. Presumably (as another commenter stated above) at involves limiting fly balls and inducing soft contact
Far be it from me to dive into ocean of ZiPS equations, but I’m certain that’s exactly it.
A little disappointed to see an article about the Reds”plan” that ignores the two biggest components of said plan as it relates to 2018.
1. Nick Senzel, a top 10 prospect in MLB, is expected to reach the majors this year and to hit immediately upon arrival. He’s likely to finish the season a full-time starter.
2. The pitching has been horrendous for 3 or 4 years now. But the organization has amassed a collection of ~8 legitimate young rotation prospects (26 & under) who are all either in the majors or in AAA. Last year was partly a function of injuries forcing these guys up ahead of schedule. How many will prove to be quality major leaguers? We’ll see.
Any discussion of the Reds plan to compete is woefully incomplete without discussing these two points.
They seem like an adequate team on paper. Good blend of power and speed throughout the lineup in a dangerous park. I agree with the article’s premise that they are a position player or so away. On the pitching side, I’m not so sure one of their prospects can’t break through. They are not in bad position, but it would be a big boost to their fan base to make a value trade or a good FA signing. Afterall, why should teams engage in revenue sharing if teams are not going to re-invest in the yearly payroll? (at least to a certain threshold of dollars)
Also, wouldn’t this be the time to trade Votto? The team would be stacked if they got a good return. Would the Blue Jays bite?
Them landing Dallas is a HUGE “If”, and “if” they in fact do, than Yes they will need to find a supporting cast pitching staff on the Cheap. With that said, why the hell would you tool around with the same pitchers, whom have left you in the injury prone mess in the first place. Why spend money on league avg statistical pitchers, whom are injury prone on a consistent basis? Why gamble on something you’ve been losing on for years? As you stated they will be lucky to see a 2017 type Scooter again, Votto… although still putting up prime 1st base numbers is getting Old and wants to Win sooner than later, making him a non guarantee being on the team in 2019 or 2020. Suarez has turned out to be a great Pickup but will he really sustain his breakout of 2017? What about Hamilton? He was Hot and still swipes bags, but his OBP, as well as avg, has been on the slump. Back to those pitchers…..especially the ones you mentioned. The only one with rebound Promise is Finnegan whom should pitch to a league avg war this year IF he stays healthy. Homer won’t rebound, he’s had his chances, and lost em. Anthony, as you stated, does put up solid numbers but is much to of an injury concern and would be better off as a duel inning relief like Lorenzen played last season. So, if they do land Dallas, they need to go with there Youth in Castillo and the pitcher who you forgot to mention…. Tyler Mahle. Mahle, whom was a rookie last season, started 4 games, hurled a 2.7 ERA in 20 innings. Yes his WHIP was 1.50 but granted he was a rookie and his minors WHIP was stellar, so he seems likely to improve on the walks. I would much rather put a package together of Dallas, Luis, Tyler, than maybe Evoldi or someone else than chance it on people you’ve gambled and lost on before