When Scouting Shortstops Gets Too Subjective
When I’m making the calls for the Evaluating the Prospects series, I start picking up trends across multiple lists. Some of it is simple, expected things—trends in types of players I or the industry tend to underrate or overrate—but there can be more specific things that keep coming up. I wrote earlier about the trend of top hitting prospects flopping the big leagues after appearing bored at Triple-A along with a general plea of ignorance in any scouting projections, but now there’s now another constant I keep hearing on almost every list.
It’s become part of common internet prospect lingo to ask/comment on whether a prospect that plays shortstop in the minors can “stick at the position.” What this means is if he can project to be average to slightly below, or in other words, good enough to send out there on an everyday basis, assuming his bat is enough in combination with his defense to be one of the top 30 shortstops in the big leagues.
This seems like a simple enough question, but there’s a persistent blind spot in the industry of underrating the defensive ability in short looks (a showcase, infield practice or just a handful of games) of shortstops with solid fundamentals, but without flashy actions.
Some of this comes from a team talking about their own prospect, trying to change the consensus that their own prospect can, in fact, stick at shortstop in the big leagues. I can say from working in three front offices that over 95% of the time, the team that has a prospect also has the #1 highest value of him out of all 30 teams. There’s a number of understandable reasons for this effect, but it only accounts for a small part of the overall trend.
I hear it often and in the all three talent markets: the draft, July 2nd and now on organizational prospect lists. The player getting underrated is a shortstop with anywhere from 45 to 55 speed on the 20-80 scale, that has fringy to average pure range for the position and the minimum amount arm strength (55) for the position. So many times, this player doesn’t seem in early looks like he could stick, but now a scout, a plurality of scouts or a whole organization later come to realize that he can.
You probably have a mental image of these two sorts of players. There’s the flashy (almost always Latin) shortstop with quick hands, plus speed and the actions that, after one ground ball, look like a big league shortstop. This guy could be Elvis Andrus, Rey Ordonez, Andrelton Simmons or any other number of players you may be thinking of right now. Then there’s the other guy, either with a third base looking frame and/or speed (Jhonny Peralta, Juan Uribe, Jordy Mercer) or just a guy with unspectacular tools (Jed Lowrie, the recently-traded Franklin Barreto or 2015 draft prospects Alex Bregman of LSU and Brendan Rodgers, from an Orlando-area high school).
You can see there’s a subtle amount of racial influence here in most cases, but what I’m realizing is that the answer to “is he a shortstop?” is a snap reaction that’s answering a different question. The answer is often addressing “does he look like Rey Ordonez?” rather than “can he be fringy to average defensively with enough bat to be one of the 30 starting shortstops?” question, which is the one being asked by the scouting report. It usually isn’t until the high minors or big leagues that the default answer by scouts is to the more important question.
I find myself (and other scouts echo my sentiment) that when you go to a showcase and see 40 kids you’ve never seen before run out to shortstop and each take a half dozen grounders that I write in my notes after you see some Jed Lowrie type tools “2B fit” or “3B fit” next to his name. Then, this same player plays in games the rest of the evaluation period until signing/draft day and you start seeing instincts, positioning and the intangibles of defense and you slowly start thinking this kid might be able to stick.
This happens in various forms at every level of baseball, but there’s little accountability for when scouts or writers get it wrong, because the shortstop was called a future non-shortstop at every level until he proved it in the big leagues for multiple years. It didn’t matter if you were wrong, because everyone was wrong, because they were answering the wrong question.
The more accurate way to think about shortstop defensive evaluations is in three buckets: definite yes, maybe and definite no. Some scouts may already think of it this way, but odds are only the flashy guys go in the first bucket and some of them don’t show the consistency to deserve that standing. Plenty of second bucket guys are getting tossed in the third bucket way too quickly, before they claw their way to where they belonged in the first place.
Barreto and Rodgers (the front-runner for the #1 overall pick in June) are both interesting cases to watch going forward, but the best case study may be two current college players. There’s another 2015 draft shortstop prospect I haven’t mentioned yet — University of Florida product Richie Martin. He is the flashier type of shortstop and has plus speed: he immediately passes the eye test and every scout you talk to says he should be at least an average defensive shortstop.
When you drill down or talk to a scout who is really paying attention, you’ll hear it pointed out that Martin makes a number of mental errors and lapses in focus to where he’s clearly behind Bregman as a defender currently. Bregman is a smaller guy that is a tick slower, doesn’t have flashy actions and has been projected as a pro second baseman or catcher his whole amateur career for these reasons.
That said, Bregman makes every play and to make up for his merely okay range, he charges almost every ball hit to him and has sure hands, making nearly every play. Martin has always had a light bat and was almost benched as a sophomore, but had a breakout offensive summer on the Cape, so now he’s seen as a complete prospect that likely goes in the top 50 picks. Some scouts are a little wary of the short track record of offensive success and the inconsistency on defense, so it’ll be interesting to track the scouting consensus and actual results for these two SEC shortstops.
While this is just one case study and it could go either way, I’ll be paying closer attention to scouts’ and other publications’ pronouncements, along with my own, about who can stick at short and who cannot. This is also yet another reason why, for next year’s prospect rankings, I’ll be going through this year’s rankings and pointing out where I was wrong. Here’s to hoping it won’t be longer than the actual list.
Kiley McDaniel has worked as an executive and scout, most recently for the Atlanta Braves, also for the New York Yankees, Baltimore Orioles and Pittsburgh Pirates. He's written for ESPN, Fox Sports and Baseball Prospectus. Follow him on twitter.
Josh Morgan–Type B–in a Rangers org with tons of MIF. Thoughts.
Yeah Morgan is a 50-55 runner with good not great tools but a little bit a the actions you’re looking for in the first bucket…but you’re correct, he’s in the second bucket. The SS’s in the TEX system that get noticed tend to be Latin and flashy guys from the first bucket (Profar, Andrus, Sardinas). Josh Morgan and Michael De Leon are more in the second bucket but I think both will stick.
Speaking of Rangers AZL shortstops last year (and a Latin vs. US prospects), Yrizarri played quite a bit more SS than Morgan in their first stints of pro ball. Any thoughts between the two in the same spirit of your article? I’ve yet to see Yrizarri in person.
Ti’Quan Forbes was in that mix as well. Sounds like Forbes is a 3B fit going forward with a chance for CF or RF and Yrizarri will play some SS but likely fits at 3B. Morgan’s bat is the lightest of the bunch and he’s the best defender, so he’ll stick at SS up the chain.
Interesting. So who is the best fielding shortstop ever? Ozzie Smith? acrobatic and backed up by the stats. Mark Belanger? Not acrobatic, but serious statistical support. Omar Vizquel? Cal Ripken? or a modern guy, Andrelton Simmons? Or a really old guy Rabbit Maranville?
Seems the guys lke Jeter who are fairly flashy always get the hype.
If you are going by both statistical and eye-test data points, Ozzie would be the one I’d start with. I’d love to be able to somehow take video of Ozzie and compare it with current stars like Simmons to see how often he made high-difficulty plays look routine. I do remember being shocked whenever he failed to make a tough play.
And though he was a bit before my time, Belanger apparently was very acrobatic as well. The guy was built like Olive Oyl and could transition from a tough grab to a strong throw with incredible quickness, not unlike the Wizard. Lastly, Ripken had incredible lateral quickness (someone told me once that all the basketball he played was a big reason why he maintained that quickness), so it would be faulty so just assume that a big white guy playing SS that well was simply because he was “a student of the game” or an “expert in defensive positioning”
When did Simmons become a star? He is just some glove-first kid. If you want to consider sub 250 hitters without pop or speed, look into Mark Loretta. His 2006 season is regarded as the best ever defensively.
Mark Loretta 2006? He had -5 uzr/150 that year. And a decent hitter. Better than I remembers. Check out his 2004.
Star as in defensive star. Nothing implied about pop, speed, or Mark Loretta-ness
Vince – I guess you were really thinking about Adam Everett (2006 +25 runs UZR, +34 runs DRS). If it wasn’t for the big age difference when they debuted, Everett’s first few seasons do look a bit like Simmons’, at least superficially.
“Best ever” questions always beg the question of “over what time period”. Are we talking about absolute peak skill (e.g. on his best day)? Are we talking about a multi-year peak? Or are we talking in aggregate over his career? I could see those having different answers, with the career aggregates favoring the Smith/Belanger types who likely maintained their athleticism longer.
Excellent point. Guys like Rey Ordonez and Adam Everett were incredibly good at their peak, but couldn’t hit enough to remain everyday players in spite of that.
I think you forgot to include JEETS!!
JEEEEEETS
The funny thing with JEETS is that he and Ripken were basically blessed with the same total amount of natural athleticism. It’s just that Jeter got the combo of plus forward quickness and minus lateral quickness (relative to MLB regular shortstops), while Ripken got the opposite.
Jeter was never really “flashy” other than the jump throw. The reason why baseball people have always liked Jeter’s defense even in the face of poor metrics is because of how solid and consistent he is when he does get to a ball, and his mystique of being an astute player (The Flip).
Would you consider Wilmer Flores to be one of these scouting failures based on preconceptions or a case of a team being blind to what everyone else sees as a guy who cannot play a competent MLB shortstop? I’ve heard conflicting opinions on this actually within the context of the Jeter defense arguement, as some constantly berate him defensively because of his poor metrics and others say the fact that he was able to hold down a job at shortstop for so long makes him a somewhat valuable defensive player given how high shortstop is on the defensive spectrum for positional adjustments.
He’s definitely a second bucket guy along the lines of Jhonny Peralta, due to the size/speed/range. Looking more every day like he may be able to stick after scouts consistently said he couldn’t.
Yeah and as long as he makes all the regular plays then his bat should carry him through.
Flores could be a top 7 or 8 offensive SS or better. The Mets would benefit from adding a better defensive caddy there, maybe Cozart.
Coz art is no use to the mets. The met already replaced a very similar place in Tejeda already who is not as good defensively but better offensively. The mets also have tovar who is a cheaper version of cozart who will be the defensive replacement in aaa
Flores was given 0% chance to stick by scouts.
Excellent read, Kiley.
Good stuff. Just points out how scouts have to avoid the “small sample size” issue just as much as stats guys do.
I mean, I’m sure there were scouts who saw a few plays from Jose Offerman in his early minor league years and concluded that he looked like a no-doubt major league SS. Anybody making one of these lists is enough of an elite athlete to occasionally pull off a major-league level difficult play, but it’s the ones who can make these a high percentage of the time that would stick at the position.
Currently Kang Jung Ho has faced knee-jerk criticism that he “won’t stick at short,” before most people have seen anything but a highlight reel.
The Pirates also drafted Jordy Mercer (as you mentioned) as a shortstop who probably would not stick at short. So far, he has been a fine defensive player. Nothing flashy or overtly athletic about him (by MLB standards) but he fields his position fairly well.
I suspect that Nick Franklin and Wilmer Flores would be able to handle short if they are given a chance.
This makes me wonder about Todd Frazier. He’s got good reactions, a good first step, and good arm, but he’s a bigger guy who doesn’t cover a ton of ground. He was a SS in the low minors and then really struggled to take to 2B when he was moved off SS, but that was more of a footwork thing than a lack of athleticism. He’s been a plus 3B this far in the majors.
Certainly the bat plays at 3B and the Reds have one of the best defensive SS in baseball already. And the Reds don’t have a good alternative at 3B. So while I’m not suggesting they made the wrong move, could Frazier have been one of these guys who might have had more value as a SS but who didn’t look enough like one to get the chance?
How would you characterize Javier Guerra in the Red Sox system? I’ve seen him described as not too flashy, with avg or a tick above (55) speed but that he is a supreme defender at the position and guys like Tom Kotchman who knows a thing or two about scouting adores him.
I wrote up Guerra and posted his tools on his player page here: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa736916&position=SS
Even the Red Sox admit he’s a 45 runner BUT Guerra has 80 hands and is very flashy with the instincts to help his range play up. I thought about mentioning him, but he has one skill squarely in one group and another squarely in the other group, so he’s more of the exception than the rule.
Intriguing material Kiley! Now, in the spirit of this most recent post of yours, that resides above this post of which I am currently writing, let me ask a question of you. It is this, my utterance and question is this, “Do you think, or rather, does any part of you seem inclined to believe that Mr. Donaldson of the Blue Jays could in fact be a superior defensive shortstop to Mr. Reyes of that same Blue Jays?” Mr. Uribe and Mr. Peralta have been at least serviceable, as you say, at the position, and yet, were profiled as 3Bmen, at the implied exclusion of SS, by an amalgamation of scouting acumen, that as this post seems to imply, could have been, perhaps, a tad, I repeat a tad, biased. With yet another utterance, in which there is also a question postulated, I say, “what if Mr. Donaldson, who may be the rangiest for lack of a better term, among all current 3Bmen, was like Mr. Uribe and Mr. Peralta? That is, what if he were in fact capable of being a major league SS? What then Mr. McDaniel, and what would the implications be for, if not baseball, your own scouting methodology?”
The great thing about the way Carson writes is that it seems to flow. This mess… it doesn’t.
But I’m curious about an answer to the question.
Many have been predicting that Corey Seager will be soon moving to third base, but seems he’s intent on proving to Dodgers he’s a major league shortstop. Thoughts?
He could be an interesting case because I and basically every scout I talk to think at 1st, 2nd and 3rd looks that there’s no way he could play SS consistently in the big leagues. That’s due to his size/speed/range but he also doesn’t seem to have the quick short area bursts that you see from guys like Uribe and Peralta. But most scouts counted out Wilmer Flores and he’s still doing it, so maybe Seager is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.
Kiley, thank you so, so, so much for writing this article. I’ve been saying this all offseason with regard to Wilmer Flores and the Mets and the fallacies of relying on old scouting reports that he may have to “move off the position” someday.
This is particularly difficult with regard to Mets fans, because the Mets have been spoiled with an uninterrupted flow from Ordonez, to Reyes, to Tejada, who are all above-average defensively.
The idea of an average or fringe-average shortstop is ugly and unappealing, especially to Mets fans, but I think those people who think Flores is definitely not a shortstop are answering the WRONG QUESTION, as you put it. He might not be one, but that would be because he’s not average or fringe-average, not because he’s not flashy like Ozzie Smith.
Perfect article, wonderful article, thank you so much.
I knew you’d love this.
Tejada is no better than average defensively.
Are there any teams that seem to be ahead of the curve on this, in terms of trading “eye test” guys for good returns and/or retaining/bringing in the Peralta/Uribe types?
The statistically-minded orgs seem most open to it, but often the flashy big league SS are the best big league SS. In the article I’m more talking about overrating sizzle over steak sub-MLB shortstops. So, some teams may be more inclined in MLB to give these types a chance, but the flashy guys at the MLB level are often better, so smart teams will often skew to the better guys.
“good enough to send out there on an everyday basis, assuming his bat is enough in combination with his defense to be one of the top 30 shortstops in the big leagues”
I wonder about this, could teams benefit much from targeting good hitting 3B’s that could do a passable job at SS?
This makes me wonder if bogaerts could eventually provide at least slightly positive defensive value with more work? He seems very similar in terms of tools to a guy like peralta.
Kiley, thanks, an outstanding analysis. Based on your article, would it be fair to say Daniel Robertson has moved from bucket two to bucket one?
Talked to two scouts about that today. The A’s think he has, most rival scouts with more limited looks think he’s still in the second bucket. My short look at him was second bucket as well.
Excellent read. It’s interesting how flashy defenders in general are often not as good as they appear, as they need to dive/slide more often to get to a ball that might be a routine play for very good defensive counterparts.
Do you feel this could also be an issue with catchers? It seems like if you aren’t absolutely outstanding at the position scouts/ lists automatically discard the possibility of the player sticking at the position. People seem to forget that Evan gattis started all year in mlb. The bar isn’t as high as some think.
My understanding(which is probably wrong) is that the general philosophy is that unless everyone agrees that they can stick at SS, they are probably moving off the position at some point.
Another element before the bucket toss is height. Its easy to find guys 6’3” or so who its not even a consideration, but Jake Gatewood is somewhere between “probably” to “certainly” going to move off SS because he’s 6’5″.
When I read “scouts say” even from people like Law and Sickels, I wonder what does that exactly mean. I’m guessing it is a consensus among the clique they read/talk to and what the area scout who is their go to guy in a region or league says. How can “scouts say” (repeated widely if not universally) a player like Gennett be bad defensively and arrive somewhere between plus and plus-plus defensively?
What are your thoughts on Seattle’s shortstops? I’m guessing that when they were first drafted, Miller was a 3rd bucket and Taylor a 2nd bucket. Have both moved up a bucket since or is the jury still out on Taylor?
Would it be too pot-stirring and trouble-making to do a feature on the racial issues in scouting reports which you briefly mention here? Because, while there are conclusions I’m afraid I already suspect, it would be a very interesting read.