With Happ, Blue Jays Complete Purely Cromulent Rotation
With the signing of J.A. Happ to a three year, $36 million contract, the Blue Jays seem to have turned the corner on their 2015 ace, David Price. So in that sense, for Blue Jays fans, the Happ signing is not a Happ-y occurrence… Has everybody left? Okay! Time to get down to business. While we are all focused on the big-name free agents, like Price, picking their new and surely happy homes, the almost-AL Champs north of the border have been somewhat quietly going about the business of doing lots of business, and that business has been assembling a rotation that can take advantage of their offense.
Happ is the third starting pitcher the Jays have brought in or back since the season ended. Recall that they re-signed Marco Estrada to a two year deal, and then traded Liam Hendriks to Oakland for Jesse Chavez. Now they bring back Happ, a member of the Jays as recently as 2014. With R.A. Dickey and Marcus Stroman, that’s five starting pitchers under team control for next season. While Happ represents likely the last and largest free agent outlay by the Blue Jays organization for a starting pitcher this offseason, that doesn’t mean the team is completely done. With Happ, the team has $92 million committed to seven players in 2016 and none of those seven are Josh Donaldson, meaning adding an eighth player will make that figure meaningfully larger. Last season Toronto spent $137 million, their highest payroll ever, and though reports are a bit conflicting, they don’t seem likely to go much beyond that if at all for 2016. Assuming that’s all true, fitting David Price’s salary in would have meant cutting some muscle from the payroll, and doing that likely would have meant cutting muscle from Toronto’s greatest strength, their offense.
So instead the Jays either bought high on Happ, or just bought Happ, depending on your point of view. Normally I’d say those who think Happ has turned a corner need to look at the man’s player page because we’ve got over 1,000 innings detailing his mediocrity. But, considering we’ve seen Carlos Carrasco, Corey Kluber, Jake Arrieta, and Dallas Keuchel (and probably some I’m forgetting) all turn into very good to ace-level pitchers after years of mediocrity, well, let’s say I’m not to eager to write Happ off and hit “publish” under my byline. I’ve probably made enough mistakes here already without that, thanks anyway.
We know that with those aforementioned 1,000 innings in the books, what the projection systems are likely to say about Happ in 2016, and maybe they’re right. Honestly, they’re probably right. They are projection systems, after all, and their track record is, on the whole, better than mine or yours. They’re better than we are precisely because we’re likely to buy into real improvement before it’s warranted. Even with the starting pitching examples noted above, the vast majority of the time players don’t make huge jumps beyond their previously established track records.
Happ may or may not be in that vast majority (Jeff Sullivan looked at Happ’s improvements back in September), but the thing is, Happ’s signing doesn’t have to hinge on his newfound effectiveness, or the number of leftover bags of Ray Searage Magic Dust he stuffed into his duffel when the Pirates coaching staff wasn’t looking. Happ can be his normal pre-Pirates one-to-one-and-a-half win guy and this deal won’t be any kind of disaster either financially or on the field. Firstly, free agent contracts really only become disasters when the player quite literally can’t play. Think Hanley Ramirez. The problem there isn’t that Ramirez is paid $22 million a season, it’s that he can’t field and can’t hit. If Happ can throw 160 innings of 1.3 WAR ball for three consecutive seasons, then that’s a fine contract for Toronto. If he throws 70 innings of -0.7 WAR ball, then it becomes a problem. We don’t know what this offseason’s free agent market is valuing a win at yet, but if it’s in the $8 million or even $8.5 million arena then the Jays will get their money’s worth in that seemingly likely 1.3 WAR scenario.
So then the question becomes whether or not that’s something the Jays should want. Clearly, Happ isn’t a more desirable pitcher than Price, but that’s not a realistic comparison because Price won’t sign for three years and $36 million. Also, recall Toronto didn’t start last season with David Price, and in fact, they didn’t start the season with Marcus Stroman either. We remember they were there because they both pitched prominently in the playoffs, so it’s easy to forget that Toronto only got 11 regular season starts out of Price and four regular season starts out of Stroman, for, and this is where I prove I can do math, 16 starts! [Editor’s note: 15, you numbskull.] This season they figure to get more than that out of just Stroman. Thirty starts from Stroman are more valuable than 11 from Price and four from Stroman, so while the name on the back of the jersey at the front of the rotation may be different than what Jays fans were dreaming of after last season, the overall effect is likely to be an improvement from 2015. It’s true the calculation becomes different come playoff time, but that’s something the Jays can worry about and address closer to that time.
Also, there’s the argument that the Blue Jays offense is good enough that they shouldn’t need a David Price pitching. When you outscore the second-highest scoring team in baseball by over 100 runs, maybe you don’t. There are different ways to assemble winning baseball teams, and there is probably some irony in the fact that it’s the Royals and their junky rotation and amazing bullpen who are the reigning World Series champs while the rest of the baseball world goes crazy for aces like Price, Zack Greinke, Jordan Zimmermann, and Johnny Cueto*.
*I’m aware I’ve simultaneously called Cueto an ace and not an ace. I explain it this way: I think he’s an ace going forward, but he didn’t pitch like one while with Kansas City. Contradiction explained!
The Blue Jays are a win-now team on an (admittedly self-imposed) budget. For them to continue to operate within their financial milieu, adding Price would have been prohibitive without other changes to expensive pieces on the roster. As it stands now, 30 starts of Stroman stand in for 11 Price starts. A back end of Dickey, Estrada, and Chavez is solid if not spectacular, and if Happ’s gains are real, he’s your nominal number two starter at back end money. If not, he’s another piece in an average rotation that has a chance to appear much better than that by the time the 2016 season ends.
“a perfectly cromulent signing to embiggen their rotation”
There’s also the potential Osuna/Sanchez upside if either can pan out as a starter
Cromulence is an underrated metric.
The new market inefficiency?
Does Cromulent mean Crap? ‘Cause if it does, you are 100% Correct. Everyone other than Stroman has a 50/50 chance of being absolute Crap because they’ve done it before, in fact, very recently. If even just two of them implode as they have been wont to do, then what? Scramble to pick even more Crap pitchers off the sCrap heap and waiver wires? Dickey is such Crap he was yanked from a playoff game with a 5 run lead having only surrendered 1 run to that point. Why? ‘Cos his manager knows he’s Crap. 2016 he’ll have even more grey in his beard. What a joke Shapiro is. (ps I know what cromulent means, but they’re still Crap.)
Simmer down.
C’mon, this is funny and true. Toronto has only guaranteed that they’ll have rotation question marks all next year. What happens when Happ has a bad April? Or Dickey goes through a rough couple months? Let’s get down to it, what if Stroman is NOT an ace? This is the 2010-2011 Rangers all over again, a ton of offense and the kind of pitching that gets destroyed in big games.
Also I think the $8 or $8.5 mil per win only makes sense if you’re buying a high-WAR player, because a AAAA pitcher who fools hitters for a few months can give you +1 or 1.5 WAR, and they don’t cost $36mil that you could spend on restocking your bullpen.
SO….you’re trying to tell me there is something wrong with making it to the World Series in back to back years ? You must be an Cardinals or an old Yankee fan. So ungrateful of back to back league pennants.
I’d take back to back World Series appearances with the club as currently constructed.
I couldn’t agree more. Spoke to my season ticket rep at the Jays. They are getting record number of new season ticket subscribers and were kind enough to increase ticket prices. Add that to the $70-80 million extra dollars that Rogers made in the last two months of the season and there is NO reason this company shouldn’t increase the payroll SIGNIFICANTLY this year. It is just bad business sense. It blows my mind that these greedy clowns can’t see that if they put a winner on the field, the fans will come out in droves. Instead they hire a corporate suit to cut costs and send us back to the land of mediocrity. So disappointing that this corporation, who made over $5 billion last year treats the Jays fan base with such disrespect. I understand not going after Price or Grienke, but brining in Happ and Chavez. What a joke.
Of course, the collapse of the CAD vs the USD has cost them a fortune in unexpected increases for all those contracts (which are denominated in USD). The Jays aren’t as flush with cash as they might have been had the exchange stuck around 1.05 to 1.
Not a matter of being cheap. Simply not responsible to spend $200 million over 7 years, the last 4 of which will likely be $30 mil down the drain. None of these long term pitcher deals have worked out, especially for 30 year old with 1500 innings on his arm. I hope they’re not done, but much better to explore trade mart for some of younger arms on Braves, Indians, Mets, White Sox (just for example).
> the $70-80 million extra dollars that Rogers made in the last two months of the season
1. Where do you get that number?
2. How much of that goes to the league?
3. How much of that goes to the players (in playoff shares)?
The average playoff ticket was $250, about 50,000 seats, 6 games, 250×50,000 x 6= 75 mil, thats just for the playoff gate, doesnt include there share from tv revenue or anthing else. Rogers also lowballs the bluejays when it comes to tv revenue, pays them a minium price set by the league. Thats why the dogers can spend so much because they got a good t.v deal.
” so it’s easy to forget that Toronto only got 11 regular season starts out of Price and four regular season starts out of Stroman, for, and this is where I prove I can do math, 16 starts! [Editor’s note: 15, you numbskull.] ”
This is one of the funniest things Ive seen on Fangraphs
*Clears throat*
http://www.fangraphs.com/not/dangerous-experiment-a-roster-of-25-adam-dunns/
God I miss NotGraphs…
http://www.fangraphs.com/not/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/game2.png
^Double play bottom left “1(Dunn-Dunn-Dunn)”…
We all knew Price will not came back from the beginning, it is not Shapiro nor LaCava, it is Rogers, they will never spend that kind of money even with the gains exceeding all the estimations at the end of 2015, they are just cheap that is a fact. Saying that I was expecting them to make a run for second tier starters like Zimmermann or Cueto, I hope the upgrade significantly the bullpen because they are going to need it.
Price is a free agent, meaning he is free to choose where he goes. Even if TO threw the money at him, he has the option to go elsewhere. And why wouldn’t he go elsewhere? The Jays long-term prospects in a couple of years are not that great, as opposed to the youth movement in Boston and Chicago. Yes, Rogers could spend more, but it’s not always about the money. (I am a Jays fan living in Toronto)
yea more or less. lineup (offense and defense) is the best around, rotation looks averagey or maybe a tick above with a little bit of luck, bullpen looks good (assuming Osuna, Cecil, Sanchez and Loup). a nice pen addition could push Osuna/Sanchez to the rotation again, which would be nice for the team’s depth. still feels like there might be a Ben Revere trade to come.
Hutchison deserves mention in that 2nd paragraph. He is projected to be about league average in 200 IP, has been a good DIPS guy in his short career, and has a chance to start the year in the rotation with Chavez as the swingman.
The only point being that their rotation is kind of 6 deep right now. Before perturbing Sanchez and Osuna from their comfortable bullpen seats.
I believe Hutchison has an option left. Unless he is dynamite in spring training, he’ll be in Buffalo for depth.
So you’re saying that Johnny Cueto is both an Ace and not an Ace at the same time?
The unanswerable debate: Is Johnny Cueto a Elite MLB picher?
Somewhere between “sometimes” and “usually”
He won a Worldseries. People forget that.
That fact is somewhere between highly irrelevant and completely irrelevant.
*screams*
*faints*
Ppl*
By himself? Who did he play again? We need the “A Roster of 25 Johnny Cuetos” experiment, in a seven game series.
Eno’s new article on Cueto says the word “elite” 3 times. The previous high on Cueto articles is 1, based on a quick and non-exhaustive article search.
Cuetometer: ELITE!!!
All I know is that David Price is the new David Cone. It doesn’t seem like he will ever have a home for very long. Yes, my name is David Price and I guess I better get used to being a hired gun.
The Jays traded most of their minor league pitching prospects, and they needed to ensure they had at least 5 competent starters. They did so – without breaking the bank.
My sense is that it takes a while to adjust to the reality that backend starters are now $12 million per year assets.
The Royals just won the World Series with a group of less-than-elite starters. The Giants won with Bumgarner and a group of mediocre starters. The Jays have the great Marcus Stroman and 5 starters (Happ, Hutchison, Estrada, Chavez and Dickey) who should be at least adequate. I see no problem with the Jays’ off-season so far.
“My sense is that it takes a while to adjust to the reality that backend starters are now $12 million per year assets.”
Exactly— over on some Mets forums, Jon Niese is an untradeable worthless scrub because he is due 1/$9.5M or 2/$19.5M or 3/$30M [team options, not player or mutual] when in reality he is a decent #4 who probably has a decent amount of surplus value right now.
blech.
looks like shapiro pulled a mid-market cherington.
meanwhile, dombrowski is starting to sound like a big maret anthopolous.
this isn’t going to end well for me.
Yeah, it’s entirely underwhelming. Your analogy look sound currently too.
Johnny Cueto sure pitched like an ace in Game 2.
Happ looks a lot like a left-handed Chris Tillman. He spends a lot of time in the strike zone but misses bats at a below average rate, allows more than average contact, and doesn’t induce a high frequency of ground balls. Throw in the health concerns and I don’t see why he should be a $12 mil aav player.
Health concerns? Like… he’s prone to line drives off the head?
He gets a ton of swings and misses IN THE ZONE and induces weak fly balls now. Not so much in the past but that was the past. Tons of infield flies as well.
Has a dominant fastball as well.
You saw what the jays did with Estrada and his one dominant pitch.
Not saying hall will pull an estrada but he will turn out to be a fine signing considering the dollars and term.
*happ
This offseason has been a disaster for the Jays from a PR perspective. After whiffing on AA, Rogers slaps its fans in the face by not increasing payroll and bringing on a corporate suit with an unimpressive record in from Cleveland to inexplicably put the Blue Jays on a austerity program. Instead of investing some of the $80 million of extra money from the last two months of the season, Rogers is hoarding the cash and trying to win on the cheap. To hear a company that made $5 billion last year try to tell us that the Blue Jays are a small market team who can’t compete with a Boston, Detroit or Arizona for pitching due to payroll constraints is just insulting. Even if they didn’t even make a run for Price or Grienke (which I understand) the fact that there weren’t in on the next tier down is infuriating. I have lived through my share of Blue Jays disappointments, but after the support from last season, this one takes the cake. This will likely be the last year with this offense and we are rolling the dices on incredibly shaky pitchfork rotation. I fear we will return to the well known land of mediocrity. Shame on you Rogers.
…FREE AEC! HIGHLIGHT and GOOGLE FIVE BILLION IN CORPORATE PROFITS AND ALL I GOT WAS J.A. HAPP AND THIS CRAPPY T-SHIRT.
Hahahaha. And also {shudder}
Shapiro will make a couple of trades that will
Change all your complaining.
Salazar from Cleveland and a top closer.
Then see what you have.
World Series
PoemGraphs
The Blue Jays don’t have a great rotation, but they now have a “good enough rotation” to win. That’s for an offense that scored the most runs in the major leagues.
The defense is ridiculously good too.
I really don’t understand the people that complain that “Rogers is cheap” and “they didn’t get into the 2nd tier of pitchers”. J.A. Happ is 5th in WAR among 2016 free agent pitchers, above Jordan Zimmermann, Wei-Yin Chen, Jeff Samardzija and Yovani Gallardo. He is at worst a “meh” acquisition. Those who are outraged by the move didn’t want Happ because they loathed him when he was a Blue Jay, even though his numbers went up in Pittsburgh. The Blue Jays believe that he will be better, and that they can support him with better defence. At $12 M/Y, it isn’t really a big risk, and at least he’ll probably be better than the rotating cast of 5th starters (Copeland, Norris, Doubrount, Boyd, Redmond and even Hutchison) were last year.
It’s a little disingenuous to say that Happ is ahead of those guys. 2015 was the first time Happ cleared two WAR in his career. Meanwhile you would have to go back to 2011 for the last time any of those guys failed to clear two WAR, and even then it was only Samardzija when he was a reliever.
Agreed. Blue Jays’ assessment is based mostly on what Happ showed in the second half last year. Given that he is what he was with the Blue Jays in his previous stint and produces 1.3 WAR/year, it’s not a bad deal, if not what a fan would expect. If Happ gives 2 WAR/year, it’s great for the cost.
Happ never has pitched more than 160 innings in a season and his average per start was 5.5 innings, Chavez is even worst so the Jays will need to significantly upgrade the pen to cover that shortage, wouldn’t it be better to hire proven starters that can give you 200+ innings and a medial of at least 6.5 per start?
“wouldn’t it be better to hire proven starters that can give you 200+ innings and a medial of at least 6.5 per start?”
Here is the list of SPs who averaged 200+ IP and 6.5 IP/GS 2013-2015:
Kershaw
Scherzer
Shields
Price
RA Dickey
Samardzija
King Felix
Lester
Hamels
Bumgarner
Lackey
Kluber
Greinke
Of those, they can only ‘hire’ the ones who are FA, so now we are at:
Price [Crowd: 7/$196M]
Greinke [6/$156M]
Samardzija [4/$64M]
Lackey [2/$30M]
Given th sort of $$$ and years the Jays seem interested in giving out, I’m not certain there were a huge number of options.
I would be happier with Samardzija and Lackey than with Happ and Chavez and them would need less upgrades in the pen because they both can give you 200+ innings combined with Dickey is 600+ innings and you still have Strom and Estrada that can give you 150+ each. That is a potential of 900+ innings.
With all due respect to projections, I urge everyone to look at the ZIP projections for the Jays for 2015. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2015-zips-projections-toronto-blue-jays/
Here’s a snippet:
“it’s likely promising that five of the ten best WAR projections per ZiPS this year belong to players who’ve been acquired over the offseason. Ezequiel Carrera (548 PA, 1.1 WAR), Josh Donaldson (634 PA, 5.1 WAR), Russell Martin (453 PA, 3.6 WAR), Michael Saunders (442 PA, 2.1 WAR), and Devon Travis (505 PA, 0.9 WAR) all profile at least as competent bench players or, in the case of Donaldson, potential MVP candidates*.
*At least, that is, in a world without Mike Trout.”
Saunders didn’t play, Travis played a few months, and Zeke was -0.9 WAR, mostly because of atrocious defense. meanwhile, JD posted 8.8 WAR.
As has been noted elsewhere, making predictions, especially about the future, can be dangerous.
I think if you take the starting rotation numbers from the Jays of 2015 and compare them to those that will happen in 2016. The 2016 starters will have better ERAs, FIPs, xFIPs, etc… Because we have a completely average rotation for an entire year with some guys like Stroman and Sanchez who could have monster seasons.
Not to niggle, but I’m pretty sure Miss Hoover said “promulent”. As in prominent + eminent? So, please stop. All of you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HQEOO5BvcU
Ok. I stand corrected. Sure as f*%# sounded like promulent to me…
Ya we might not have an elite rotation but we got lots of depth Stroman Estrada Dickie Haap Chavez Hutch Sanchez Osuna hard to believe more than 3 or 4 will have bad seasons