Yadier Molina’s Climb Towards Cooperstown

Yadier Molina was added to the NL All-Star team on Monday, replacing the injured Buster Posey, who’s been slowed by a bout of inflammation in his right hip and recently received a cortisone shot. Molina’s addition is just the first of a wave that will dull some outrage over the most obvious snubs from Sunday’s roster announcement; on the AL side, Jed Lowrie was named as Gleyber Torres‘ replacement on Tuesday. As Molina is a Star Player of a Certain Age, his ninth selection to the Midsummer Classic in a 10-year span (he missed 2016) set off another round of everybody’s favorite parlor game, Is He a Hall of Famer?. You know I can’t resist buzzing in for that one.

But first, the selection. Molina, who turns 36 on July 13, is having a pretty good season, particularly for a guy who missed a month due to [crosses legs uncomfortably] emergency groin surgery necessitated by a foul tip. He’s currently hitting 274/.317/.484 with 13 homers in 240 plate appearances, and while his on-base percentage is nothing to write home about — how is it a guy who spends half the game minding the strike zone for his pitchers can walk just 5.4% of the time? — his slugging percentage is his highest since 2012, his best offensive season. His 115 wRC+ is his highest since 2013, and it’s lifted his career mark to an even 100. Of the 23 catchers with at least 200 PA this year, that 114 wRC+ is tied for sixth overall. Both MLB leader J.T. Realmuto (149) and fourth-ranked Willson Contreras (122) are already on the NL All-Star squad, with the latter elected the starter.

While Molina’s offense is in a good place in 2018, his defense appears to be off, and not only because he’s thrown out just four out of 19 stolen-base attempts (21%, nearly half of his 41% career mark). Via FanGraphs’ version of catcher defense (which isn’t UZR), he’s 2.4 runs below average, including two below average in the stolen-base component of Defensive Runs Saved. Via the non-pitch-framing version of DRS, he’s four runs below average, while via the framing-inclusive version, he’s two below average. Via Baseball Prospectus’ Fielding Runs Above Average, which includes framing, he’s 2.3 runs above average overall and 3.7 above in the framing component. Via our version of WAR — which, again, does not include framing — Molina’s 1.3 WAR is tied for ninth among catchers overall. Some of that is the impact of his injury; prorate all of the catchers with at least 200 PA to 600 PA and he’s a rounding error out of fifth:

Top Catchers by 2018 WAR, Prorated to 600 PA
Name Team PA AVG OBP SLG wRC+ WAR WAR/600
1 J.T. Realmuto Marlins 290 .317 .368 .551 149 3.5 7.2
2 Francisco Cervelli Pirates 231 .247 .381 .468 132 2.3 6.0
3 Willson Contreras Cubs 332 .279 .367 .453 122 2.5 4.5
4 Yasmani Grandal Dodgers 291 .243 .340 .450 118 1.7 3.5
5 Kurt Suzuki Braves 239 .275 .343 .455 116 1.3 3.3
6 Yan Gomes Indians 258 .251 .314 .447 104 1.4 3.3
7 Yadier Molina Cardinals 240 .274 .317 .484 115 1.3 3.3
8 Wilson Ramos Rays 303 .291 .340 .479 127 1.6 3.2
9 Buster Posey Giants 326 .282 .362 .404 113 1.7 3.1
10 Gary Sanchez Yankees 265 .190 .291 .433 97 1.2 2.7
Min. 200 PA.

Thus it’s fair to say that his selection isn’t just about 2018 performance but about his reputation and bigger-picture productivity, and as I noted in Monday’s reaction piece to the NL starting outfield of Bryce Harper, Nick Markakis, and Matt Kemp, I’m not one to sweat that.

As for Molina and the Hall, he may well become the most polarizing candidate this side of Jack Morris or Omar Vizquel, because the popular perception doesn’t jibe with the numbers. As I noted last year while at SI.com, industry heavyweights such as The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal, ESPN’s Buster Olney, and USA Today’s Bob Nightengale refer to Molina as a surefire Hall of Famer thanks to his defensive excellence. An admittedly unscientific Twitter poll taken by MLB Network pot-stirrer Brian Kenny, which helped to set off the latest round of this conversation, received over 19,000 responses, 73% of which favor Molina as a Hall of Famer. His score via the Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor, a relatively old-school metric that gives credit for awards, league leads, milestones, and postseason performance — things that historically have tended to appeal to Hall voters, at least prior to the post-strike offensive explosion and the influx of PEDs — is 140, where 100 is a likely Hall of Famer and 130 is “a virtual cinch.” Yet advanced metrics such as WAR, WARP, and JAWS leave him wanting.

Before I delve into those, the Monitor score is worth a closer look because it’s a good way of laying Molina’s basics on the table. Each All-Star selection is actually worth three points by James’ system, so Molina’s score is about to rise to 143. In addition to his nine All-Star appearances, he’s won eight Gold Gloves, more than any catcher besides Ivan Rodriguez (13) and Johnny Bench (10). He’s been part of nine playoff teams, including seven division winners, four pennant winners, and two World Series winners, though in 2004, when the Cardinals lost to the Red Sox in the World Series, he wasn’t the regular. (The Monitor awards points only for the regulars on such teams, with more credit to the tougher defensive positions like catcher and shortstop.) He’s a career .284/.335/.406 hitter, which again only comes to a 100 wRC+ (or a 99 OPS+), but for the Monitor, a .275 batting average for a player with at least 1,500 games played at catcher, shortstop, or second base is worth a hefty 15 points. Molina, with 1,774 games caught (15th all-time), not only checks that box, he gets a whopping 45 points for that total via the system, and he will gain another 15 when he gets to 1,800, pushing his score to 158 within the next month or so.

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Among catchers, only Yogi Berra (227), Rodriguez (226), Bench (214), Mike Piazza (207), and Bill Dickey (178) outpace him, and he’s recently surpassed Mickey Cochrane (137), Gary Carter (135), and Ernie Lombardi (133). The highest catcher outside the Hall is Ted Simmons (125), whom I spotlighted in The Cooperstown Casebook.

Not captured by the Monitor but also worth noting: Molina has won four Platinum Glove awards, given by Rawlings to the best defensive player in each league since 2011. He’s also won six of the 10 Fielding Bible awards at catcher, given to one player at each position per year (not per league). Suffice it to say that, when it comes to reputation, he’s got defense for days.

As for what JAWS and the Baseball-Reference version of WAR upon which it’s based have to say, Molina’s modest total of 37.8 career wins (1.1 more than in the FanGraphs version) ranks 26th all-time. By B-Ref’s combination of Total Zone and DRS for defense, his 123 runs above average ranks third all time, behind Rodriguez (147) and 19th-century catcher Charlie Bennett. Using B-Ref’s numbers, the problem for Molina relative to Rodriguez is a gap of 86 runs with the bat (+74 for Ivan, -12 for Yadi) and 31 runs on the bases (-2 to -33); they’re virtually even in double-play (non-)avoidance (-22 to -21). That’s 116 runs in those three areas, a gap about half that of the chasm between Vizquel and Ozzie Smith, but a substantial one nonetheless.

It’s just over half that of Bench’s 75.2 mark. (Somewhere I can hear Sparky Anderson’s immortal line about Thurman Munson after the Reds’ 1976 World Series sweep of the Yankees: “[D]on’t ever compare anybody to Johnny Bench, don’t never embarrass nobody by comparing them to Johnny Bench.”) That 37.8 WAR is well below the Hall standard, the average of the 15 enshrined catchers being 53.5. Molina’s WAR outranks just three of the 15 honorees, namely Ray Schalk (28.6), Rick Ferrell (29.8), and Roy Campanella (34.1), the last of whom had his career curtailed on the front end by the color line and on the back end by the car wreck that paralyzed him. (Don’t ever compare anybody to Roy Campanella, either.) Among active players, Joe Mauer (54.3) and Buster Posey (40.4) are well ahead of Molina; Russell Martin (36.6) isn’t far behind, and Brian McCann (27.9) is at the edge of the picture.

Molina’s not done yet; he’s signed through 2020 and may well want to play past that. I asked our newest addition to the FanGraphs staff, Dan Szymborski, to train his ZiPS gun onto Molina through his age-40 season (2023); his version of WAR is somewhere in between the B-Ref and FanGraphs versions, but on the same scale, so it’s useful here. Including this year’s rest-of-season projection (1.2 WAR) and his next five years (7.7 WAR), it would push Molina to 46.7, which would surpass Munson (who deserves more love from the Era Committee voters), though Posey will also surpass both. Even that revised ranking adds only Roger Bresnahan (40.9) and Lombardi (45.9) to the list of Hall of Famers below him.

Molina’s 28.6 peak WAR (his best seven seasons at large) is closer to the Hall standard (34.5) but still significantly below it, ranking 25th all-time and ahead of just Lombardi (27.8), Schalk (22.1), and Ferrell (19.9) among enshrined catchers. His ZiPS projection has no impact on that peak score. His 33.2 JAWS (the average of his career and peak WAR) ranks 27th, a hair behind Campy (33.5), outdoing only Schalk (25.3) and Ferrell (24.8), the pair whose plaques I put in “The Basement” in the Casebook. Including the ZiPS projection would push him to a JAWS of 37.8, 17th all time, but again, short of the standard (44.0) and ahead of only five of the 15 enshrined. Here’s a leaderboard that includes that projection as well as those for the other active players up through 2023, the age-40 season for Molina and Martin, and the age-36 season for Posey. The projections for McCann and Mauer are cut off after 2022, their age-39 seasons and their first below replacement level:

Catcher JAWS Leaderboard
Rk Name Career Peak JAWS
1 Johnny Bench+ 75.2 47.2 61.2
2 Gary Carter+ 70.1 48.4 59.3
3 Ivan Rodriguez+ 68.7 39.8 54.3
4 Carlton Fisk+ 68.5 37.6 53.0
5 Mike Piazza+ 59.6 43.1 51.4
Future Posey 60.7 37.9 49.3
6 Yogi Berra+ 59.4 37.0 48.2
Future Mauer 56.9 39.0 48.0
7 Joe Mauer* 54.3 39.0 46.7
8 Bill Dickey+ 55.8 34.2 45.0
9 Mickey Cochrane+ 52.1 36.9 44.5
Avg HOF C 53.5 34.5 44.0
10 Ted Simmons 50.3 34.8 42.6
11 Gabby Hartnett+ 53.4 30.3 41.9
12 Thurman Munson 46.1 37.0 41.6
13 Gene Tenace 46.8 35.0 40.9
14 Bill Freehan 44.8 33.7 39.3
15 Buck Ewing+ 47.7 30.4 39.1
16 Buster Posey* 40.4 37.1 38.8
Future Molina 46.7 28.6 37.8
17 Jorge Posada 42.8 32.7 37.7
18 Ernie Lombardi+ 45.9 27.8 36.9
19 Jason Kendall 41.7 30.4 36.0
20 Wally Schang 45.0 25.2 35.1
22 Roger Bresnahan+ 40.9 28.8 34.9
Future Martin 41.6 26.8 34.2
26 Roy Campanella+ 34.1 32.8 33.5
27 Yadier Molina 37.8 28.6 33.2
28 Russell Martin* 36.6 26.8 31.7
Future McCann 34.7 24.4 29.6
32 Brian McCann* 31.4 24.4 27.9
41 Ray Schalk+ 28.6 22.1 25.3
46 Rick Ferrell+ 29.8 19.9 24.8
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference
Note rankings discontinuity after top 20. Blue highlight indicates the inclusion of ZiPS projections through 2023 or a player’s first season below replacement level if before 2023
* = active (statistics through July 10)
+ = Hall of Famer

If Molina’s case were as open and shut as that, I wouldn’t be bothering with this column, but JAWS isn’t intended to be a binary yes/no system that ends the discussion. We all know that WAR doesn’t capture every facet of catcher defense, including pitch-framing, which is both an area in which Molina excels and an increasingly important one for catchers, in general. Both stolen bases and balls in play are less common than in past eras, so a greater proportion of a catcher’s job involves stealing strikes at the edges of the zone.

Baseball Prospectus’ data includes not only Framing Runs Above Average for the PITCHf/x and Statcast eras but also numbers dating to the dawn of the pitch count era, from 1988 onward, for what Max Marchi called RetroFraming in 2013. The pre-f/x numbers are based on the percentage of strikes on pitches not swung at while controlling for the presences of the pitcher, catcher, umpire, and batter via a cross-classified multi-level mixed model (“With or Without You,” in sabermetric circles), and it turns out that Mike Piazza, who was otherwise much-maligned for his defense during his playing career, was especially good at it (87 runs above average), but that Rodriguez, an otherwise elite defender, was not (-4 runs). Molina is 178 runs above average for his career in this critical area, though still looking up at his older brother, Jose Molina, whose skill in this area was highlighted by Mike Fast’s 2011 efforts to quantify it. Thanks to BP’s Jonathan Judge and Rob McQuown, here’s the current career leaderboard:

Framing Runs, 1988-2018
Rk Player Framing Runs
1 Russell Martin 223
2 Jose Molina 202
3 Brad Ausmus 184
4 Yadier Molina 178
5 Brian McCann 173
6 Jonathan Lucroy 140
7 Buster Posey 127
8 Yasmani Grandal 124
9 Miguel Montero 122
10 David Ross 109
11 Tyler Flowers 101
12 Javy Lopez 95
13 Jeff Mathis 91
14 Mike Piazza 87
15 Alberto Castillo 87
16 Jason Varitek 76
17 Ryan Hanigan 73
18 Tony Pena 69
19 Chris Stewart 69
20 Joe Mauer 65
SOURCE: Baseball Prospectus

BP has incorporated Framing Runs into its WARP calculations, but those are only applicable to catchers from the post-1988 period, and WARP totals only go as far back as 1949. Thus, only seven of the 15 enshrined catchers have any WARP data, only five have it for their entire careers, and only the last two inducted (Piazza and Pudge) have framing data for the entirety of their run. Here’s a leaderboard with the lack of coverage highlighted:

Catcher WARP-Based JAWS
# NAME FRAA Framing Career WARP Peak WARP JAWS WARP
1 Mike Piazza+ 60 87 79.7 55.9 67.8
2 Carlton Fisk+ 62 24* 72.4 38.1 55.3
3 Johnny Bench+ 16 0 69.1 45.7 57.4
4 Gary Carter+ 84 22* 65.3 42.6 53.9
5 Yogi Berra+ 54 0 63.8 44.3 54.1
6 Brian McCann* 209 173 59.9
7 Ivan Rodriguez+ 86 -4 58.7 31.9 45.3
8 Russell Martin* 243 223 57.7
9 Buster Posey* 157 127 55.6
10 Yadier Molina *255 178 53.5 38.7 46.1
11 Joe Torre -27 0 53.1
12 Ted Simmons -37 0 52.2
13 Joe Mauer* 61 65 50.9
14 Gene Tenace -5 0 46.3
15 Thurman Munson 30 0 43.7
23 Roy Campanella+ 3 0 33.4 36.6 35.0
SOURCE: Baseball Prospectus
Ranking is by Career WARP. FRAA = Fielding Runs Above Average.
Yellow highlight indicates incomplete data (framing available only since 1988, WARP only since 1949)
* = active (statistics through July 10)
+ = Hall of Famer as player (Torre elected as manager)

For what it’s worth, PECOTA projects an additional 0.6 WARP this year for Molina and 6.3 WARP through his age-40 season (2023), which together would push him to 60.4, past Rodriguez. If we’re projecting him in those rankings, however, we also need to project the next five years for Martin (an additional 7.0, to 64.7), McCann (an additional 3.4 to 60.3), Posey (26.6 to a chart-topping 82.2, and that’s just through his age-36 season), and Mauer (+0.1 through 2021, his age-38 season and his first season below replacement level).

Even with incomplete framing data, Molina would still trail four of the five enshrined catchers with full WARP coverage. That quintet, which also happens to be the top five in JAWS, averages 69.0 WARP for their careers and 42.8 WARP for their seven-year peaks (Piazza at 55.9 is the high, but as we don’t have framing data for Bench, that has to come with an asterisk) and 55.9 for a WARP-based JAWS, with Future Yadi at 60.4/38.7/49.6, ahead of only Rodriguez.

In other words, Molina is 6.3 points below this top-tier standard in a system that includes both projections and some (but not all) framing from among the elite catchers. Turning back to the ZiPS projections and that same top five in bWAR, the quintet averages 55.8 JAWS, and Future Yadi comes in at 37.8, a gap of 18 points. Even in an incomplete analysis, framing makes a huge difference in Molina’s historical standing.

Alas, we’ll never have framing numbers for pre-1988 catchers because of the lack of pitch-by-pitch data — and, in part, because Marchi was snapped up by a team shortly after he published his results, we still haven’t gotten an updated attempt at his 2012 pitcher handling study, which was designed to measure the overall effect a catcher has on his batterymates in terms of run prevention. For that one, Marchi measured the expected-versus-actual run value for each plate appearance based on pitcher, hitter, handedness, ballpark, and defense in another WOWY model that went back to 1948. Via his publicly released data, Piazza was fourth at 205 runs saved, Fisk fifth at 191, and brother Jose Molina ninth at 150, with Campanella (123), Carter (94), Berra (57, despite lacking data for his first two seasons), Rodriguez (40), and Bench (2) further down. Yadier Molina, by this method, came in at 10 runs saved, but that’s without 2012-18 numbers, so we’re missing part of his prime. I don’t think we can fairly do much with that.

Regardless of metric, measuring Molina against the top five catchers of all time rather than the Hall average is grading him on a steeper curve than I generally use. The framing data does make his a much more compelling case, but by the same token, it appears that Posey could raise the bar by the time it’s all said and done and that both Martin (a nine-time postseason participant with three All-Star appearances and a Gold Glove) and McCann (a six-time postseason participant with four All-Star appearances but no Gold Gloves) deserve framing-inclusive consideration, as well, even if their more traditional merits don’t shine in the same light as Molina’s.

If he can stick around and be productive — no small task, particularly on a team that’s no longer a perennial postseason lock — I do think that Molina will have a stronger showing on the ballot than he does in “traditional” JAWS, with a path towards eventual enshrinement. And as with 2018 inductees Trevor Hoffman and Vladimir Guerrero, neither of whom meet the JAWS standards but both of whom fared much better in front of the voters, I think we’ll all survive if that happens.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

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Johnston
8 years ago

Hmm…9 All-Star appearances, 8 Gold Gloves, on 9 playoff teams, on 7 division winners, on 4 pennant winners, and on 2 World Series winners.

If that’s not a Hall of Fame career then there aren’t any.

bensnider94
8 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

comment image

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

Gold gloves are clearly garbage (Rafael Palmeiro!), all star appearances subject to the whims of the fans, and all the rest of the criteria you list are team dependent

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

True. On the other hand “fame” is not a perfect synonym for “good metrics”

robbotis
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

OK, maybe. But, his defensive excellence is marked in other standards. But still, a segment of the population counts Gold Gloves as important, so they belong on the resume.

bbech
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

He’s also tied for the most Fielding Bible awards which while relatively new takes a more analytical approach to it so in theory you have a lot of the noise taken out of it that’s included with the gold glove.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fielding_Bible_Award

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

How does that compare to 5 All-Stars appearances, 5 Silver Sluggers, on 15 playoff teams, on 12 division winners, on 7 pennant winners and on 4 World Series winners?

dcweber99
8 years ago
Reply to  Johnston

Only made the top-5 of MVP voting twice, and never made the top-20 again. Just because you played at a time when the majority of the guys at your position in the league were butt doesn’t mean you’re a Hall of Famer, and even then, Yadi doesn’t really stand out. Yadi’s main peer is Buster Posey, and it’s not even close between the two. His other peers are fine players, but not Hall of Famers. Russell Martin is immediately behind Yadi on JAWS, and I don’t think anyone seriously believes Martin is a Hall of Famer in anything other than beard growing. V-Mart and Brian McCann are close to Yadi as well, and again, neither guy will get more than a token vote. Joe Mauer won an MVP.

It’s worse when you look at the generation of catchers before Yadi. While there are steroid questions, Piazza and Pudge blow Yadi out of the water. Even Jason Kendall also had a better 7 year peak, and that’s before remembering that his ankle shattered.

Yadi is in the Hall of Very Good, and should be in the Cardinals Hall of Fame, if they have one. His number should probably be retired. That’s plenty of recognition for a guy with his resume.

bbech
8 years ago
Reply to  dcweber99

Mauer hasn’t been a catcher for years and Posey will end up being a first baseman sooner than later.

I think the problem with people and the hall of fame voting is a player can be a bad fielder but as long as they had a good bat no one cares but if you’re an average hitter but elite defender people will say you’re not an all time great. Everyone admits that defensive metrics aren’t there yet as they are with pitching and hitting so its just hard to quantify how much worth a player is truly bringing to the game.

Granted I’m a big hall guy but there is so much a catcher does that’s hard to quantify but if Jeter is going to make the hall for being an above average but trash shortstop but seen as the leader of baseball dynasty then Yadi should be given the same sort of credit.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  bbech

DJ was worth 72 war. He blows Yadi out of the water.

Kevin S.
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Even within the position, Jeter was above the JAWS standard for SS, whereas Yadi does not meet it at C.

shampain
8 years ago
Reply to  Kevin S.

The JAWS standard for C relies on statistics that do not include the majority of plays a C is involved in — seriously… way less than 90% of them — and thus hugely over-weights offensive statistics relative to everything else catchers do, from pitch-calling to framing. The WARP-based measure gets closer, altho is still very far from actually good, will have Molina around the same level as Pudge and — given huge error bars in these horrible measures — not so far from inner-circle HOF at the position. Arguably no defense-first C is above him.

Molina is very good at the things we can’t easily, as far as we can tell. He may be among the best of all time. He’s much better at them than Mauer, e.g., who will have played half as many games at C as Molina by the end of this season and has therefore generated zero (or negative) defensive value for a large part of his career. We don’t know precisely how much that’s worth yet, but it’s plausible (and even likely) that it’s worth a whole lot.

That’s the best case for Molina, anyway. And it’s good enough that he’ll be elected.

Lanidrac
8 years ago
Reply to  bbech

Good point. There are also guys like Jim Edmonds who were very good but not outstanding hitters yet elite defenders that didn’t get much love from the voters.

Lanidrac
8 years ago
Reply to  dcweber99

If he doesn’t make the Hall, the Cardinals won’t retire his number. It’s team protocol, the only exception from before it became protocol being Ken Boyer.

See: Mark McGwire, whose #25 was finally handed out again last year to Dexter Fowler after McGwire failed to make a dent on his first attempt with the Veteran’s Committee.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Is this an official proclamation? Is this found at the HOF museum site or something?

Damon G.
8 years ago

If you could only pick one Cardinals catcher for induction — Simmons or (projected) Molina — whom would it be?

olethrosMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Damon G.

Simmons

LHPSU
8 years ago

I think of Molina as a fringe guy, but I also believe in comparing players to their positional contemporaries, and there just aren’t that many great catchers.

Expo27Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

I mean, Jay just showed that Russ Martin and Brian McCann have roughly equal cases, while Mauer and Posey are a cut above. So he’s somewhere between the third and fifth best catcher of his generation. I don’t see how putting him in the context of his positional contemporaries makes him look better.

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  Expo27

The tail-end matters – Molina has 6 WAR since the beginning of 2016, McCann has 3.3, Russell Martin 3.8, and Joe Mauer 2.6. He’s the only one who’s likely to add significant WAR at this point.

Expo27Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

So maybe he separates himself from Martin and McCann. He’s not catching Mauer or Posey. I don’t think his contemporaries hurt his case necessarily, but it’s not as if he’s the best of his generation either. For the record, I wouldn’t vote for him, but I don’t see him getting in as a travesty either.

olethrosMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Expo27

Mauer and Posey will likely both retire with more games at 1B/DH than catcher. Molina would need to play 11 or 12 full seasons at those positions to do the same. It’s not really an apples to apples comparison. Hell, Molina has more games behind the plate than the two of them combined.

DSCeee
8 years ago
Reply to  olethros

Ding ding, we have a fact post that means the truth!

tung_twista
8 years ago
Reply to  olethros

What makes you think Posey will end up with more games at 1B/DH than catcher?

Famous Mortimer
8 years ago
Reply to  Expo27

At some point we’re going to have to stop using Mauer in discussions of catchers though, right?

olethrosMember since 2020
8 years ago

That point was five years ago. He last donned the tools of ignorance in 2013.

LHPSU
8 years ago

90% of Joe Mauer’s HoF case (and career WAR) is based on him as a catcher.

B3malMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Even if you cut Mauer’s career off at 2013 he has put up 6 more fWAR than Yadi (43-37) and 6.5 more bWAR (44.4-37.9). To this point in their respective careers Mauer still has arguably the better catching career.

shampain
8 years ago
Reply to  B3mal

Say it with me now: WAR doesn’t measure catcher value well at all.

It tells us that Mauer was a better hitter than Molina. That’s all. If you think that’s the only way that catchers add real-world value to their teams then go with it, but no one else thinks that.

Lanidrac
8 years ago
Reply to  Expo27

Mauer doesn’t really count as a positional contemporary, though, given how early he stopped catching.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago

But would you trade him for Mike Trout straight up?

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

No wayyyyy, bro, Mike Trout may be better in every single way, but does he even have leadership skills? Oh, he does? But does he even play catcher? That’s what I thought.

CindyJNCMember since 2021
8 years ago

I wonder how many people who think that Yadier Molina is a no doubt Hall of Famer would say the same of Andruw Jones. Andruw played platinum glove type defense at a premium position (in his prime) while hitting 434 home runs over the course of his career. He has a career WAR of 66.9. Sadly, I think Molina gets in on first ballot while Andruw will need to hope for the veterans committee to vote him in.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  CindyJNC

I think Andruw was really hurt by that cliff he fell off of. Right or wrong, I believe it’s cast a shadow on everything that came before it.

CindyJNCMember since 2021
8 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

Yeah, I definitely think you are right. Andruw left Atlanta, got fat, and then couldn’t hit or play defense. It’s sad that this causes HOF voters to overlook how truly great he was from 1997 to 2006.

Matt
8 years ago
Reply to  CindyJNC

Yadi has a big boost for longevity and consistency – there’s only been 1 year since he got established in the league that he’s played less than 135 games, and has only been a below average hitter a couple times. People will likely “over-compensate” for how great defensively he was in his career, but especially if he can put another handful of decent seasons together, is likely a deserving candidate.

McCann and Martin, though, will likely be the odd ones out and get the “Jones” sort of treatment. They’re simply not thought of in quite the same light as Molina, and yet by all accounts should be right there with him. They’re all ranked highly by framing, and their non-framing WAR totals are all virtually identical to this point (fWAR has them 0.3 wins apart from 1st to 3rd). That’s kind of where we need this “hall of good”, where we can honour the guys like Molina, McCann, Martin, Jones, Walker, Lofton, etc… Guys who are maybe not quite the Hall of Famers like Posey or Piazza, but who had long and distinguished careers.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

He’s been a below average hitter by wRC+ in eight different seasons

GoNYGoNYGoGo
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Yes, but catchers almost always are.

Matt
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I’m not counting the first 4 years before he got established, and glossing over the 94 and 97 marks the couple times he hit them (yeah, sue me). Other than that, he’s had an 84, an 81, and 7 100+ marks. So basically only twice since he grew into the role was he significantly below average.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

So throwing out six of the years he’s been below average, he’s only been below average twice? That is accurate!

Krisco
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Consider this: If you throw out all 8 of the years Molina has been below average, then he’s never been below average.

Think about it.

Cordane61273Member since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Looking at his hitting numbers as a catcher using sOPS+, his first three years were significantly below average (87, 85, 62). Since then, he put up a 93 in 2010 & 96 in 2015 and everything else has been in the black. He’s probably a 110 sOPS+ for his career.

CousinNicky
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Consistency you say, oh like andruw from 1998-2006 never having a fWAR BELOW 4.9! Thats nine straight years of All-star caliber play in a row (6 seasons were above 6 fWAR which dips into MVP discussion seasons).

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  Matt

All of the guys you mentioned should be HOFers.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  CindyJNC

I think Molina is about as borderline as you get, and so I’m willing to draw the line around the point you mention: You induct Andruw Jones first, then you get to go ahead and do Molina when it’s his turn.

dl80Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  CindyJNC

Andruw is a no-doubt Hall of Famer in my mind. He should already be in. Molina is an almost-no doubter to me. Worth a discussion but should probably get in.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  CindyJNC

Probably a lot of them.

Lanidrac
8 years ago
Reply to  CindyJNC

Don’t forget about Jim Edmonds, either.

gydemeMember since 2026
8 years ago

One thing I’m surprised this article didn’t touch on at all (not that I think they would know how to quantify it even) is Molina’s handling of pitching staffs. It’s well known within the Cardinals organization and from interviews with pitchers who work with him that he crafts a gameplan for each pitcher he works with and chooses the pitch types and placements every at bat. He brings out the best in young pitchers and elevates aging ones. Not sure how it factors or even compares to other catchers but it is a facet of his game he is well known league wide for.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  gydeme

There’s a whole paragraph on handling of pitching staffs in the article. Which gives me an opportunity to jump in on that. I see no evidence that he’s made an appreciable difference in that regard. Everything that’s ever been said about his handling is anecdotal. And it all comes from within the Cardinals organization, so it’s not like we’ve got a good variety of viewpoints on the subject. The only attempt at establishing empirical evidence that Jay cites actually looks unfavorably on him, but I also agree with Jay that its so limited as to not be something I’d hold against him. I’m not about to give him credit for his handling, though, absent any non-anecdotal evidence in that regard.

There’s also the whole “he’s the heart and soul of the team” argument. I wonder how that squares with him not stopping Bud Norris from be a jackass to the younger pitchers that he is apparently so good at nurturing.

Famous Mortimer
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Much as it pains me to admit it, you’re right with that last paragraph.

GarageCatMember since 2023
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I’d advise you to check this article out, with regard to the Norris-Hicks situation. Critical thinking is key here, in an article where so much was emotional language used by Saxon.

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2018/7/12/17562696/when-writers-get-weary-and-fans-feel-fatigued-st-louis-cardinals-bud-norris-mike-matheny

In addition, you can compare team ERA with Molina behind the plate versus when he isn’t catching. I believe the last time I saw the numbers team ERA was about 0.9 runs lower with Molina than with any other catcher (backup, injury replacement, etc), which does speak to Molina’s handling of the pitching staff. You also see it from guys outside the org who join the Cardinals or players who talk about it after they retire and have no obligation to the Cardinals.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  GarageCat

Clearly, the Marchi methodology was superior to just comparing ERAs without controlling for pitchers, quaility of replacement catchers, small sample problems (like babip or lob% flukes when backups were playing).

I’m not saying I think Yadier is bad at staff handling, I’m just saying the anecdotal evidence seems insufficient to credit him positively or negatively in that regard. Also, even if we assume that most pitchers think Yadier is good at handling a staff (which I’m not sure is proven, but I’ll roll with it), it doesn’t mean that causation is established versus a simple correlation explanation. It’s totally possible Adam Wainwright and Carlos Martinez were gonna be good as hell, anyway, and Yadier was also there – and then they had nice things to say because Yadier was also there. And it’s not like someone’s gonna say “yeah, I felt great today. Probably would have done even better if my catcher wasn’t garbage”

dbminnMember since 2025
8 years ago

Catchers have been underrated for decades when it comes to the HOF. No catcher was inducted in the 90s, between Bench and Fisk. No post-war C were inducted between 1972 and 1989. That’s little thanks for playing a b**** of a position.

Finding a catcher who can hit, play defense and manage a staff is really rare. Catchers who play at a high level for 130-140 games/year and play for more than a decade are rarer still (especially outside the steroid era). Yadi deserves to be in the HOF, as do a few other catchers still waiting for the call.

Question for Jay: Do you think a modern player has to be above current average JAWS to be considered for the HOF? At least by position?

LMOTFOTEMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  dbminn

And then go back before Bench and you have another big gap. Bill Freehan was his generation’s Russell Martin but got completely overlooked. Catchers can’t catch a break in HOF.

Maggie25
8 years ago

I don’t really know how it came to be, but it really just seems like there’s this whole “legend of Yadier Molina” thing that makes everyone think he’s an obvious hall of famer even though the numbers don’t really bear it out. I’m not really arguing for or against him, but I can’t think of any other current players who have such a narrative-based reputation. It starts to feel like circular reasoning: Yadier Molina’s great because everyone knows that he’s great.

Anthony CalamisMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

Current players, no, but this feels like it’s what has happened with Omar Vizquel, too. He was talked about so often as a future HoFer that people began to buy it.

Icebox
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

I think he may be one of the last remaining players whose reputation was forged before analytics reached a certain tipping point in baseball fandom. That, and he was a young player on those Cardinal devil magic teams that always seemed to buck conventional wisdom at a time when popular analytics had less resources or flexibility to account for their success. Plus, his legend was cemented early enough in his career to make it durable (and at a position that’s very difficult to precisely evaluate).

Personally, I feel torn between the initial impulse to discredit a “narrative-based reputation,” as you aptly call it, and a sort of begrudging openness to definitions of “Fame” that inevitably differ from my own.

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  Icebox

Yeah, I think y’all have a good point about catchers being sort of the final frontier of player evaluation using analytics. As someone who loves Russell Martin, I understand the narrative pull of the magical catcher.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

Martin saved TONS of real and quantifiable runs with his framing. That is not narrative.

robbotis
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

It’s not just Yadi, but catchers in general. Catcher is unique in that regard. They do so much, that is difficult to quantify and in today’s world, that’s what makes it a topic of debate. There’s still enough old school and eye test in me, that, I know Yadi is the best I’ve seen in those little things that matter. And I’ve seen plenty of good ones, like Fisk, Pudge, Benito, Tony Pena, Carter.

PC1970Member since 2024
8 years ago

One problem with Bill James HOF Monitor using postseason appearances is that it has gotten much easier to make the postseason in the modern era. Prior to 1969, it was 2 teams/yr., 1969 to 1993, it was 4 with the move to East & West divisions, then it became 8/yr. with the move to the 3 division set up & the WC. Now it’s 10, with the 2nd WC. Playing & losing a 1 game WC game is treated the same as making the WS prior to 1969. That’s ridiculous & probably not the intent since the HOF Monitor was created prior to the WC era.

Not sure what to make of Molina. Certainly a very good player, great defensive player, played on many good teams..but, how much extra credit do you get for being in the right situation? Similar to the old Phil Rizzuto argument. Add in many of his contributions being intangible things (handling pitching staff, game plans) & the uncertainty of pitch framing metrics & it’s a tough call.

Famous Mortimer
8 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

I wonder if James has made a comment about this – probably too busy talking nonsense on Twitter and getting his ass handed to him repeatedly.

deltaclown
8 years ago

In spite of everything I’ve learned about baseball over the past 10-15 years, I will stubbornly insist that Yadi is a Hall of Famer til the day I die.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  deltaclown

Did you learn about framing in the past 10-15 years? 🙂

olethrosMember since 2020
8 years ago

I’m pretty firmly in the “Yadi’s not a HoFer” camp, and I’m a lifelong Cardinal fan.

That said, if he is inducted I won’t be upset at all the way I am at the induction of Morris and the snubs of Simmons, Whitaker, Edmonds, and (probably) Rolen.

Slappytheclown
8 years ago
Reply to  olethros

could not have said it better. can I add Grich to the snub list? Simmons should be in as a ‘C’ over Molina…unless Molina produces 4-5 years worth of 2-3 WAR, in which case he will be in the simmons comp. Overall though I do think Catchers get a bad shake from the HOF committee. Maybe the positional adjustment isn’t high enough to push the career WARs into the ‘normal’ range of 60-70+ but Catcher is just a BRUTAL position to play well both mentally and physically.

olethrosMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Slappytheclown

Hell yes Grich belongs on the snub list. Graig Nettles, too, I think.

Third is actually even worse off than catcher when it comes to the Hall. Until Chipper this year the only 3B since WW2 to get in without either 500HR, 3000H, or being Brooks fucking Robinson.

A large part of the generally lower career WAR for catchers is simply playing time. IN addition to typically shorter careers, they generally play fewer games per season than any other position.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  olethros

Someone mentioned this before, but it’s relevant here too–there are so few catchers in the HoF that using the median JAWS in the HoF might not really work here.

I think Jay has shown pretty convincingly that if you include framing, he is about as close to “borderline” as they come. Induct him, by all means. But please take Rolen and Andruw Jones first.

piddy
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The problem with introducing framing is that we don’t know how much it would shift older catcher upwards as well. And while Molina has a good framing track record, it cuts into the argument that he’s clearly the best defensive catcher of his generation

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  piddy

If catchers (through framing) really are BY FAR the most important player on the field – what would be bad about moving quite a few catchers up?

Icebox
8 years ago

My big takeaway here–and I think this is in keeping with the spirit of the article–is that we know less about catcher value than we do about any other position, and it’s not particularly close.

That’s one reason why Molina is the beneficiary of the kind of subjectivity that I find really annoying in his specific case (mostly thanks to Joe Buck and the Notorious BFIB) but don’t actually mind overall with HOF cases. The contemporary narrative about a player certainly shouldn’t mean everything, but it shouldn’t mean nothing, either.

I think analytical principles have actually gotten enough traction that WAR is the single most persuasive factor in evaluating careers now (albeit still only one among dozens), but there’s a fuzziness with catcher WAR that makes most people, even those of analytical bent, more willing to tolerate (and even consider with healthy skepticism, as Jay does here) media/fan narratives that they would eschew for a 2B or RF. And given the very real knowledge gap there, I think I’m ok with that.

3cardmontyMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Icebox

This is exactly where I’m at. Yadi is the one player I support for HOF who has no real statistical case, and it’s based entirely on his reputation, which dwarfs that of any other modern catcher. For me, valuing catchers goes far beyond “fuzziness.” They are so important, affecting every pitch, with so much input into strategy. But their WAR totals do not reflect this importance. I think analytically valuing catchers is still in its absolute infancy, and there are so many things they do that we may never be able to value. So in the case of catchers I’m of the mind that a reputation as immense as Molina’s should count for a lot.

shampain
8 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

There’s a statistical case if you use Bayesian methods and have as a starting prior that Molina is a very good defensive catcher in ways that aren’t counted by WAR-based metrics. And there is good justification for that prior, from both subjective assessments and the best quant measures that we have.

jerwood01
8 years ago

I mean, isn’t the obvious answer basically “If Yadi gets in, it’ll be because of defense”?

GarageCatMember since 2023
8 years ago
Reply to  jerwood01

Defense, longevity, and above-average hitting for a catcher. Then the accolades argument could come into play, depending on who’s making the case.

Jon
8 years ago

If Molina’s a Hall of Famer, then so is Jason Kendall.

Jon
8 years ago

One reason why he may seem like more of a HOFer than WAR says he is is because we may (fairly or not) discount baserunning for catchers. In other words, Molina’s accumulated 70 baserunning runs below average in his career. He’s literally been twice as bad as Albert Pujols for their careers, and is just as bad as Pujols is now.

But maybe we say “oh, we don’t care about that for catchers – they aren’t supposed to run well anyway.” So if we ignore the negative baserunning component, Molina becomes a more-or-less league average offensive player for his career. (Which matches up nicely with the fact that his career wRC+ is 100.) I forget if the relationship between WAR and RAA is linear or not, but if it is, ignoring his baserunning would give him 56 career WAR, by my calculations – which, if we trusted the number, should make him a HOFer.

I’m not saying it’s right to look at this way because hey – hey did cost the Cards a lot of wins with his running. But just that maybe this is how people are subconsciously doing it when they think of him as a HOFer.

tung_twista
8 years ago
Reply to  Jon

I don’t agree with ignoring the baserunning numbers completely, but you do bring up an interesting point.
UBR and wGDP do not exist prior to 2001 and I imagine most catchers had significantly negative UBR and wGDP numbers.
So a lot of them are being ‘overrated’ by only using wSB.
It is the opposite of how good baserunners in the 20th century are underrated by simply looking at WAR.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  Jon

All of his terrible baserunning is already included in WAR.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  Bothrops Atrox

Oops – didn’t read the post well enough. 🙂

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

On the other hand, Future Posey really does look like a lock for the first ballot. What a stud.

DSCeee
8 years ago

WAR is biased. No way around that. just like most advanced stats. Does the guy contribute to winning? Actual stats say yes. Are pitchers better with him behind the plate? Yes, definitely. Do runs drop when he catches? Yup, just like Russell Martin. Is he a Hall of Famer? Let’s wait until he’s done. Posey and Mauer play an awful lot of 1B and who knows if they’ll only play 1B soon? Speculation is fun but not even close to reality.

piddy
8 years ago
Reply to  DSCeee

> Does the guy contribute to winning? Actual stats say yes.
Yep, 36.9 wins above replacement!

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc PedersonMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  piddy

So 37 wins above replacement? Let’s think about this idea for a minute, the notion that Molina has been worth a hair less than 3 wins per year for his career.

He has a career wRC+ of 100 which is above average for a catcher…but he’s a slow baserunner even by catcher standards. So on balance let’s call him an average offensive backstop. But he’s also been very durable, not merely for his career as a whole, but also within seasons — he’s regularly among the top 3 in MLB in innings caught. So before we even factor in his defense, he’s already a slightly above average catcher, or slightly above 2 WAR per season.

Now the glove. Molina for his career has been an elite pitch framer, an elite pitch blocker, and one of the two or three greatest throwing catchers in the history of the sport. Those three skills combined seem like they would be worth a LOT more than half a win per year, don’t they?

In fact, the *lowest* estimates of Molina’s framing put him at more than a dozen runs per year, or 1.2 WAR. The throwing arm versus base stealers has been worth 6 runs per year, according to Baseball Info Solutions, or .6 WAR. And per Bojan Koprivica’s research, Molina’s blocking has been worth conservatively another 3 runs per season.

Add it all up, and you’re at nearly 4.5 WAR per year before pitch-calling, which MGL has estimated is worth another 7 runs or so per year. So 5.2 WAR per year in total, and 3 WAR per year from defense. Does it seem reasonable that the combo of Molina’s framing, throwing, blocking, and game-calling could be worth 3 wins, or 30 runs per year?

Well, entering the 2018 seasons, Molina had caught 14,000 innings and his backups more than 5,000 innings. The team ERA was 3.64 with Molina and 4.28 with all others. If just HALF of that is Molina, then he’s been worth .32 runs off the team ERA , or 32 runs per 100 games over his career, or 40-45 runs per season.

Lanidrac
8 years ago

Above-average hitting but below-average base running in general still equates to an above-average offensive player. Base running is nowhere near as valuable as what someone does at the plate

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  piddy

37 wins without including the one thing Yadier has prevented by far the most runs doing.

Maggie25
8 years ago
Reply to  DSCeee

This is a real question and not a challenge, but are there actual stats showing that pitchers are better with Molina as catcher or that fewer runs are scored? I guess since he’s a good framer, that would obviously help his pitchers, but anything more than that?

As for WAR/advanced stats being biased, biased in what way and toward whom? Your use of the term “actual stats” I find kind of troubling.

Jon
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

Yeah, I would love to hear what an “actual stat” is (and conversely, what a…fake stat is? an imaginary stat?).

So – let’s hear it: which of the stats on this site are actual, and which ones aren’t?

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc PedersonMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Maggie25

Entering 2018 Molina had caught 14,000 innings, and his backups had caught 5,000 innings, so fairly enormous sample sizes.

ERA w/Molina: 3.64
ERA w/others: 4.28

This isn’t ALL Molina, of course. That’d be 80+ runs per year. But a third or more feels entirely plausible, because every study has Molina, over his career as a whole, elite at pretty much everything.

His career caught stealing percentage, relative to his league average, is alongside Pudge Rodriguez as one of the top 2 in MLB history. He’s also picked off more runners than anyone but Rodriguez over the past 40 years or so.

His framing is elite per all sources, and so was his blocking until the past 2 or 3 seasons. And MGL’s initial research valued Molina’s pitch-calling at 7-8 runs per season. So he’s been great or historically great at every single defensive aspect of catching, per all available research.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
8 years ago

Ok but does this mean we should do this for Martin and McCann as well? What about Bob Boone and Mike Hegan? Should there really be like 25 more catchers in the HOF using this process?

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

I meant Jim Hegan of course

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

If catchers, through framing and pitch calling, really are taking away a lot of the value attributed to pitchers, then yes (well, not 25, but certainly more). Catchers are proving to be BY FAR the most important position on the field. If a guy like Molina is around #25 all-time in WAR systems that do not include framing or pitch calling (or in BBref, even plate blocking) – than it is no small leap to show that he is a HOFer with great framing, etc. And McCann and Martin.

Would there be more HOF catchers from framing-data eras? Sure. Is that more of a grave injustice than ignoring framing data that is available? Nope.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Bothrops Atrox

OK then some of the pre-framing data guys will also receive consideration through a combination of statistical regressions or revisiting contemporaneous reputation or something. It will be interesting to see whether pitchers will start to receive less credit to avoid double counting.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

BBPro does adjust pitcher runs saved based on catcher framing.

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc PedersonMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Any given pitcher would not have their WAR total adjusted all that much, even in the extraordinary case of, say, a +20 run framer.

In this example, if a catcher is worth 20 runs over 1,300 innings, on average he’d only be worth 3 runs, or 0.3 WAR to a 195-inning workhorse over an entire season. To me that’s a fairly modest tweak.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago

The best framers have been shown to be worth 20 WINS over a career not 20 runs.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago

The gap between MGL’s WOWY study and the one referenced here is quite perplexing.

Spa City
8 years ago

The HOF’s standards for induction have fluctuated so much that it is hard to say what the standard really is. But Molina is not there, and there are a lot of players who need to be in if Molina makes it.

Dustin Pedroia, Ian Kinsler, Andrew McCutchen, and Curtis Granderson… None are HOF players in my book. But if Molina makes it, these guys all need to make it also. Molina had 3, maybe 4 great years, and a lot of very good seasons.

That said, of course there are a lot of players in the HOF who were never as good as Molina. So by the standards set over the years, there is a case to be made. But by the same logic, there is an equally compelling case to be made for Pedroia, Kinsler, McCutchn and Granderson. My vote is for none of these guys.

They deserve a prominent place in the Hall Of Very Good…

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago

Every catcher with 50 BBRef WAR is in the real HOF, with the exception of Ted Simmons, who had right at 50 and is just one Vet vote away from making it too. With framing included, Yadier clears 50 WAR with plenty of room to spare. So does McCann and Martin. They should all be in the HOF. I am sure there is a Jim Sundberg out there who would probably get the same framing HOF benefit too and it realy sucks for him. but ignoring data we do have is not the way to be just.

I can see people not trusting the framing data – but I struggle to see how anyone who trusts the accuracy of the framing data could say Molina, McCann, and Martin are NOT HOF level players.

steelehere
8 years ago

If he can get over 2000 hits and his WAR above 45 by the time he retires, I wouldn’t have a problem with Yadier Molina being voted in on a Veteran’s Committee ballot 20-30 years from now.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Just re “Mike Piazza, who was otherwise much-maligned for his defense during his playing career” — I’m not sure this is a totally fair characterization. Piazza always got a lot of stick for his arm, and no one would call him good at cutting down the running game, but plenty of pitchers also talked positively about his game-calling and framing. In that era, when catcher fielding was mostly anecdotal and unquantified, sure, people overemphasized the arm as something measurable, but I feel like the general sentiment was always more that he was probably average or maybe better at the other stuff.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

And after reading this really excellent comment section all the way through — this is one of the best ones I can recall around here — I’m persuaded that catcher fielding is still pretty under-understood and poorly quantified. I wonder if the positional adjustment really ought to be a lot bigger.

B3malMember since 2025
8 years ago

I’m a no on the “is Yadi a HOFer debate” and this article further cements it in a way. The fact that Brian McCann and Russell Martin both have better cases based on WARP (the only version of WAR that gives a case for Yadi) then I’m even more solidly a no.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  B3mal

You read the WARP based JAWS list (#10 since 1948) and the projected 17th place finish on the career WAR chart (with zero framing factored in) and came away as more of a no?

The man is going to finish in the top 20 WAR all-time as a catcher AND add another 20 wins due to framing. The fact that Russell and Martin are HOFers too makes no difference. Bench, Carter, Fisk, Simmons, and Munson all had tons of overlapped times.

It is not the least bit perplexing to think there are 4-5 HOF catchers the pat 20 years. Considering that because of framing catchers are by far and away the most influential position players – there should be a lot of catchers in the HOF.

B3malMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Bothrops Atrox

19 of the 27 catchers ahead of Yadi by JAWS are either completely unaffected or mostly unaffected by framing stats that are only available since 1988. Out of the other 8, 6 remain ahead of him. Plus two others (Martin and McCann) jumping ahead of him. He passes Mauer and Jason Kendall. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that if framing statistics were available since the beginning of baseball that Yadi would rank no differently among all catchers by WARP as he does by bWAR or JAWS.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  B3mal

But he is going to be around #19 when he is done in a few years regardless. That might be a HOFer anyway. Even if he moves up a few net spots with 20 framing wins – this is no longer a debate at all. It is very unlikely tons of guys ahead of him have that kind of framing credit and keeping pace with his upward movement.

But here is the big point: lets say there are 25 catchers that were all worth 65-70 WAR because of framing. Why shouldn’t they all be in the HOF?

B3malMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Bothrops Atrox

Perhaps a better way for me to state what I was thinking would be this. While being a no on Yadi, I think he is truly borderline and wouldn’t be upset if he got in. I anticipated WARP to make a better case for him than it did because I knew WARP valued him higher than either fWAR or bWAR. But after seeing the table and reading the article, I don’t think WARP makes any better of a case for Yadi than either fWAR or bWAR. It makes a very similar case.

B3malMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  B3mal

But as an answer to your question about there being 25 catchers being 65-70 WAR players… This is from pure memory of previous times looking through JAWS and my own opinion…

While there are fewer catchers than any other position besides 3B in the hall of fame, there are also fewer undeserving catchers in the hall of fame than any other position. The number of players that truly deserve enshrinement is around that 20 number you used per position based on what I can remember from previous times looking through it. And Yadi is going to end up right around that spot for his career. So again borderline with me being on the no side but wouldn’t be angry about him making it.

B3malMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  B3mal

And this is a matter of personal preference but I personally prefer great peaks to sustained good. I always use Nomar and Omar Vizquel as an example since it is a rather extreme one. They put up very similar bWAR for their respective careers with Omar at 46 and Nomar at 45. But I much prefer Nomar’s career because he was a legitimate superstar for 6 years and I don’t think you could say Omar ever had a season where he was a superstar. Maybe that one year he put up 6 WAR.

I’m not saying Yadi is Omar but I would maybe be borderline yes instead of borderline no if Yadi had the exact same career WAR with another year or two like 2012-13 and the other seasons were slightly worse to counter balance it. But again that is just a personal preference thing.

B3malMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  B3mal

I posted this too quickly. Actually only 25 ahead of him by JAWS. Of those only 6 of them have full framing and fraa to compare. He jumps ahead of Kendall, Posada, and Mauer while remaining behind Posey, Piazza, and Rodriguez. He also has two guys behind him in JAWS jump ahead of him. Still I think my point stands. If framing and FRAA were available back to the beginning of baseball it is reasonable to think his rank in WARP would be similar to his rank in JAWS.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  B3mal

But we also aren;t just comparing Yadi to other catchers. Lets say he is finished at 65 career WAR with framing. 65 WAR for a catcher is like 75 for a different position player. Even if there are more catchers who hit this mark due to framing, I think they match up too well vs. all of the other position players to leave them out.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago

Let’s say Molina finishes with 42 career WAR. That is a conservative estimate compared to the one offered here. That would put him 19th all-time. Here are the other #19 players at the other 7 positions:

Todd Helton
Joe Gordon
Dick Allen
Jack Glasscock
Joe Medwick
Cesar Cedeno
Gary Sheffeild

These are the position player comparison points for Yadi. Some HOFers, a few guys most of us think are HOFers, and a few guys who are borderline. All of these guys are in legit HOF discussions. Let’s say all of them are borderline.

Yes – I know we can’t compare each position player by player position by position, but it is a reasonable proxy. That is what we are dealing with with Molina and McCann and Martinez. Around top- 20 position players…with an extra 18-23 wins due to framing on top of it. And who knows about staff handling/pitch calling, and you have Yadi’s postseason heroics, and +60 runs in high vs. low leverage situations (Clutch) for Yadi, etc.

I really don’t see these three (or Posey) as being THAT close to borderline, in fact. Nor do I think it is a problem to have 5 catchers of the past 20 yeas in the HOF, considering Bench, Carter, Fisk, Munson (who should be a HOFer), Tennace (who is close to a HOFer), and Simmons (about to be in the HOF) all crossed significant amounts of time.

People have talked alot about Yadi’s narrative vs. analytics here. I think the analytics (as long as one trusts framing) backs up the narrative and then some.

The Duke
8 years ago

Interesting discussion. My thoughts:

1. The argument isn’t binary. You aren’t choosing one catcher. Posey, Molina and McCann can all be hall of famers

2. Yadi’s Case is built on narrative but it’s a narrative that he has otherworldly knowledge of calling a game. There are stats above showing how the cards pitchers pitch with and without Molina. This is a huge factor

3. All the other catchers listed are generating their case with their bats. Yadi has a tougher row to hoe for sure

4. His World Series appearances are with 4 very different teams. There was a lot of churn of players across those teams and Yadi was really the one constant

5. His counting stats of games caught and innings caught will be as high as top 5 on his current pace. I think being this durable is already swaying voters

6. I listen to cards games and through the course of the season many other broadcasters and former players show up in the broadcast booth. Almost all of them answer unequivocally that Yadi will go in – so he has a strong rep with people that watch the game every day

7. His two thumb injuries severely hampered his offense in his late prime. He lost several WAR due to that.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

To point #2. The framing component is not narrative. Yadi has well over 50 WAR (as a catcher) with framing credit. The issue here is not narrative vs. no narrative. It’s do we believe the framing data or not. That is not the same as calling the game. If Molina has legit pitch calling/staff handling skills – that would be the icing on the cake. I think the 38 WAR he has now + the 18 WAR framing is more than enough. I don’t think his case depends on game calling or narrative at all.

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc PedersonMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Bothrops Atrox

BPro’s WARP total for Molina, even with framing value included, may still be significantly too low, for two reasons.

(1)Bojan Koprivica’s pitch-blocking research gave Molina much higher numbers than BPro assigns him , and (2)Baseball Info Solutions gives Molina much more than 2-3 throwing runs per year — BPro’s relatively meager assigned value to Molina for being one of the two greatest throwing catchers in MLB history. (Does it really make sense that being perhaps the best throwing catcher in history is only worth 2 or 3 runs a year more than being average?)

That last point refers to Pudge v. Yadi, as they are both nearly 50% above the league CS % for their careers, and I’m fairly certain that’s distinctly superior to any other backstop with 1,000 games caught.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

I’m fine with most of the arguments you’re raising but #6 is just silly. Of COURSE the hometown media talk up a borderline Hall of Fame candidate who’s spent his career on their team. That happens even in sports-media markets less homer-ish than St. Louis.

Bothrops Atrox
8 years ago

In fairness – that would be #6 since 1950. There would still be quite a few older guys ahead of him too if the data went back that far.

The Duke
8 years ago

Yes, some of the guys who come on are former cardinals but they have a lot of other teams’ broadcasters and national writers and players who weren’t exclusively cardinals. I agree if you have Matt Holliday on you will get a certain answer but I am referring to the non-stl contingent which I think reflects the sentiment around the league