Zack Greinke’s Climb Towards Cooperstown
Zack Greinke’s final start of the 2018 season was a tour de force, one that knocked his former team, the Dodgers, out of first place in the NL West heading into the season’s final weekend. The going-on-35-year-old righty survived a rocky beginning and pitched well, drove in the go-ahead run, tormented longtime nemesis Yasiel Puig as baserunner and a pitcher, and even made a nifty fielding play, albeit one that ultimately didn’t count. It was a fitting capper to a very good season in which Greinke made his fifth All-Star team and delivered solid — but not exceptional — value given his massive contract. He couldn’t singlehandedly pitch the Diamondbacks into the playoffs, and he isn’t likely to receive any Cy Young votes, but by staying healthy and pitching at a high level, he gave his chances at Cooperstown a considerable boost.
It’s that last topic that brings me to this post, because multiple readers have asked for it in some context. I’ve touched upon the cases of several of Greinke’s peers this season, such as Felix Hernandez (here), CC Sabathia (here) and Justin Verlander (here). As we’re about to spend the next five weeks absorbed in postseason baseball, it seems like a good time to check in.
But first, let’s appreciate the resiliency and athleticism Greinke displayed on Wednesday night. Peppered for seven hits from among the first 12 batters he faced, he managed to limit the damage to two runs thanks in part to a double play off the bat of Joc Pederson that ended the second inning and a diving stab by shortstop Nick Ahmed that snared Puig’s bases-loaded, 99.9 mph line drive to end the third. That out was part of a stretch in which Greinke retired 10 of the final 12 batters he faced, with a Chase Utley walk and a Cody Bellinger infield single the only blemishes. Ballinger’s single followed a grounder up the first base line that Greinke — a four-time Gold Glove winner who has seven Defensive Runs Saved to his credit this year — gloved and then flipped to first baseman Paul Goldschmidt in time for what would have been an out had the ball not been ruled foul:
On the other side of the ball, in the bottom of the second inning, as starter Ross Stripling coughed up the Dodgers’ early 2-0 lead, Greinke stroked an RBI single up the middle to plate Nick Ahmed with Arizona’s third run. He took second on a Ketel Marte single, and then tagged and went to third on an Eduardo Escobar liner to Puig:
For as impressive as the right fielder’s heave was, it also allowed Marte to advance to second. Neither runner wound up scoring; after walking David Peralta, Stripling gave way to Pedro Baez, who struck out Goldschmidt. Nonetheless, Greinke’s baserunning was a nice flourish that added yet another dimension to the night’s performance.
It was a tight game at the time, but A.J. Pollock’s three-run homer in the fifth inning broke it open and Arizona won going away, 7-2 — a game that bumped the Dodgers half a game behind the Rockies, who then won their seventh straight on Thursday to extend their lead to a full game. The Diamondbacks, who spent 125 days with a share of the division lead, were eliminated on Sunday after a stretch in which they lost 17 out of 22 games. Their back-to-back wins against the Dodgers on Tuesday and Wednesday marked their first two-game winning streak since August 29-30 against the Giants and Dodgers; their slide began the following night, when Greinke surrendered a 2-1 lead by yielding solo homers to Enrique Hernandez and Justin Turner.
Greinke finishes his season tied for the major league lead in games started (33) and fifth in innings (207.2). He’s one of just eight pitchers to top 200 innings, and while that number may rise over the season’s final four days, it will stand as the fewest of any non-strike season. Such a workman performance is hardly new; Greinke has made at least 32 starts and tossed at least 200 innings eight times apiece in the last 11 seasons, throwing more innings (2,207) than all but four other pitchers (Verlander, James Shields, Cole Hamels and Jon Lester) in that span. Among NL starters this year’s 207.2 innings rank fourth, his 199 strikeouts sixth, his 3.21 ERA ninth, his 3.70 FIP and 3.5 WAR both 10th. He has shown his usual pinpoint control, backing up a 23.7% strikeout rate with a 5.1 % walk rate; the latter ranks third in the league, while his 18.6-point differential is seventh.
It’s a season that’s just outside the realm of Cy Young consideration. Statistically, there’s little he’s done where one could make a case for him ahead of Jacob deGrom or Max Scherzer, or even secondary candidates such as Aaron Nola and teammate Patrick Corbin. Wednesday night aside, the first and last months of the season (more or less) contained some of his less noteworthy work, at least as far as his ERA is concerned, but in 23 starts from April 30 through August 31, he posted a 2.59 ERA and 3.61 FIP, a run that helped place him on the NL All-Star team for the fourth time in five years.

As for the Hall of Fame stuff, first of all, it’s worth noting that Greinke notched 15 wins, taking his career total to 187 and increasing the odds that he’ll reach the 200-win milestone next year, as he’s won at least 13 games in each of the past eight seasons. Now, let’s insert the standard disclaimer here: I don’t care much about pitcher wins, as there are better ways to measure pitcher performance, but in the context of the Hall of Fame, the topic is unavoidable, particularly when focusing upon this current generation of players for whom round-numbered milestones beyond 200 wins seem increasingly remote.
When I profiled Verlander’s case in late August on the occasion of his 200th win, colleague Dan Szymborski provided ZiPS-based projections showing the chances that several other pitchers would reach round-numbered milestones. The odds may have shifted by a point or two since then, but I think this still suffices as a ballpark estimate, with the caveat that ZiPS, which draws up on decades of historical precedent for its projections, can’t yet account for the trends in starter workload reduction that threaten to lower these odds somewhat:
| Pitcher | Age | Total | 200 Wins | 250 Wins | 300 Wins |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bartolo Colon | 45 | 247 | 100% | 98% | 0% |
| CC Sabathia | 37 | 246 | 100% | 98% | 29% |
| Justin Verlander | 35 | 204 | 100% | 51% | 29% |
| Zack Greinke | 34 | 187 | 97% | 48% | 21% |
| Jon Lester | 34 | 177 | 91% | 43% | 12% |
| Felix Hernandez | 32 | 168 | 31% | 12% | 5% |
| Max Scherzer | 33 | 159 | 87% | 40% | 16% |
| Cole Hamels | 34 | 156 | 51% | 12% | 1% |
| Clayton Kershaw | 30 | 153 | 83% | 67% | 31% |
| Ervin Santana | 35 | 149 | 30% | 19% | 0% |
| Adam Wainwright | 36 | 148 | 5% | 0% | 0% |
| David Price | 32 | 143 | 50% | 14% | 2% |
| Rick Porcello | 29 | 135 | 73% | 39% | 7% |
| Gio Gonzalez | 32 | 126 | 45% | 12% | 0% |
| Johnny Cueto | 32 | 125 | 41% | 12% | 1% |
| Madison Bumgarner | 28 | 110 | 47% | 20% | 9% |
| Chris Sale | 29 | 103 | 80% | 45% | 26% |
| Jake Arrieta | 32 | 98 | 25% | 2% | 0% |
| Corey Kluber | 32 | 96 | 30% | 7% | 0% |
| Stephen Strasburg | 29 | 93 | 47% | 13% | 2% |
While it will take years before we see how accurate these estimates are, the win milestones remain important as far as Hall voting is concerned, given that, since 1992, the BBWAA has elected only three starters who finished with fewer than 300 wins (2011 honoree Bert Blyleven plus 2015 honorees Pedro Martinez and John Smoltz). Mike Mussina and Curt Schilling, both of whom have received at least 50% of the vote from the writers — a strong indicator of future election — should join their company some day, and the late Roy Halladay is up for election this December, but it’s a slow-growing list. As I’ve said countless times both here and at Sports Illustrated previously, the voters are going to have to come to grips with how to evaluate candidates from what I call the “workload constraint era,” with its five-man rotations, pitch counts, times-through-the-order concerns, and de facto innings caps. The milestones and resumés by which voters have been guided previously will look quite different from starters of recent decades, and recognizing the best pitchers form an era that’s likely to lack of 300-game winners pitchers will require some mental recalibration.
Of course, I say that while armed with an alternative to using wins as a yardstick, namely my JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) system, which uses the Baseball-Reference version of WAR on both a career and peak (best seven seasons at large) basis to compare current or future candidates to those players already in the Hall at their positions. JAWS shouldn’t be the only consideration for a Hall of Fame case — it’s certainly reasonable to factor postseason work, awards, historical importance, and even milestones into the discussion — but to my mind, a solid estimate a player’s worth on the offensive, defensive, and pitching sides, while accounting for park and league scoring variations, is the foundation of that case.
Anyway, here’s the latest edition of the table that I introduced back in February while writing about Hernandez, showing each player’s career WAR, peak WAR, and JAWS (all in terms of bWAR), along with a measure of how their JAWS changed since that time. Note that this not only includes each pitcher’s performance (including his offense) for 2018 but also an update to bWAR involving park and defensive factors; Sabathia was one of the players most affected, losing 1.0 WAR from his peak.
| Name | Yrs | W | ERA+ | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS | Old JAWS | Dif |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| AVG HOF SP | — | — | — | 73.4 | 50.1 | 61.8 | 61.7 | 0.1 |
| Roy Halladay | 1998-2013 | 203 | 131 | 64.3 | 50.6 | 57.5 | 57.6 | -0.1 |
| Clayton Kershaw | 2008-2018* | 153 | 160 | 65.0 | 49.6 | 57.3 | 54.1 | 3.2 |
| Zack Greinke | 2004-2018* | 187 | 123 | 65.8 | 47.3 | 56.6 | 53.4 | 3.2 |
| Justin Verlander | 2005-2018* | 204 | 125 | 63.0 | 45.8 | 54.4 | 50.0 | 4.4 |
| Max Scherzer | 2008-2018* | 159 | 131 | 54.7 | 47.4 | 51.1 | 43.7 | 7.4 |
| CC Sabathia | 2001-2018* | 246 | 117 | 62.7 | 39.4 | 51.0 | 51.0 | 0.0 |
| Tim Hudson | 1999-2015 | 222 | 120 | 58.2 | 38.3 | 48.3 | 48.5 | -0.2 |
| Johan Santana | 2000-2012 | 139 | 136 | 51.6 | 45.0 | 48.3 | 48.1 | 0.2 |
| Mark Buehrle | 2000-2015 | 214 | 117 | 59.3 | 35.9 | 47.6 | 47.1 | 0.5 |
| Andy Pettitte | 1995-2013 | 256 | 117 | 60.3 | 34.1 | 47.2 | 47.5 | -0.3 |
| Cole Hamels | 2006-2018* | 156 | 124 | 55.9 | 37.6 | 46.8 | 46.2 | 0.6 |
| Roy Oswalt | 2001-2013 | 163 | 127 | 50.1 | 40.3 | 45.2 | 45.1 | 0.1 |
| Felix Hernandez | 2005-2018* | 168 | 120 | 50.9 | 38.6 | 44.7 | 45.4 | -0.7 |
As in February, Greinke ranks second among active pitchers in JAWS behind his former teammate, Kershaw, and he’s surpassed all of the recently retired ones except Halladay, whom he should catch next season. He’s now about three wins short of the peak standard, and five points short of the JAWS standard, with the latter score already ahead of 28 of the 63 enshrined pitchers including BBWAA selections such as Ted Lyons (71.5 career/41.2 peak/56.3 JAWS), Don Drysdale (67.2/44.8/56.0), Dazzy Vance (60.1/49.5/54.8), Smoltz (69.1/38.8/53.9), 300-game winners Don Sutton (67.0/34.0/50.5) and Early Wynn (61.1/38.6/49.8), and sainted Sandy Koufax (49.0/46.1/47.5).
One reason why Greinke ranks so high is that he’s turned in two monster season with at least 9.0 bWAR. His 2009 AL Cy Young campaign, with its AL-best 2.16 ERA and 2.33 FIP, was worth a honking 10.4 bWAR, the highest mark by a pitcher since Randy Johnson’s 10.7 in 2002. Greinke’s 2015 season, with its NL-best 1.66 ERA, was worth 9.1 bWAR on the pitching side and another 0.6 bWAR on the hitting side. Even without factoring that latter figure in, he’s one of just eight pitchers with multiple 9.0-bWAR seasons since 1969:
| Pitcher | 9 WAR Seasons | Years |
|---|---|---|
| Randy Johnson | 3 | 1999, 2001, 2002 |
| Pedro Martinez | 3 | 1997, 1999, 2000 |
| Roger Clemens | 3 | 1987, 1990, 1997 |
| Zack Greinke | 2 | 2009, 2015 |
| Greg Maddux | 2 | 1992, 1995 |
| Steve Carlton | 2 | 1972, 1980 |
| Wilbur Wood | 2 | 1971, 1972 |
| Tom Seaver | 2 | 1971, 1973 |
Five of the other seven are in Cooperstown, the exceptions being Clemens, whose PED misadventures have kept him out, and Wood, a knuckleballer who made 91 starts totaling 710.2 innings in 1971-72, his two seasons topping that mark.
Back to the hitting for a moment. By the low standards of today, Greinke is rather gifted with the bat, slashing .220/.259/.311 with six homers in 542 PA. That, along with his baserunning (-1 run) and double-play avoidance (+1 run), is worth 4.2 batting bWAR, an unremarkable total in the context of careers from earlier eras. By comparison, Hall of Famers Red Ruffing (13.5) and Walter Johnson (12.7) top the list, and Drysdale, who’s two spots below Greinke in the JAWS rankings, had 5.8. For Greinke, that work is concentrated into the relatively short period of his NL tenure (2011-18 except for a brief 2012 stint with the Angels), and 3.7 of that 4.2 WAR was produced in the seasons that make up his peak score, providing extra bang. Again, this is not unique, and it’s been part of JAWS since the beginning. Good-hitting pitchers give themselves an advantage, and deserve the rewards.
Beyond that, Greinke doesn’t have the postseason resumé that some of those pitchers whom he outranks in JAWS have. He’s 3-4 with a 4.03 ERA in 67 postseason innings, none of them in the World Series. While strong for the Dodgers in their 2013-15 trips, sometimes in a losing cause, he was dreadful for Milwaukee in 2011 and the Diamondbacks last year. His score on the Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor, a metric that gives credit for awards, league leads, milestones and postseason performance — things that historically have tended to appeal to Hall voters — is 93, where 100 is a likely Hall of Famer and 130 is “a virtual cinch.” With “only” one Cy Young award and no black ink outside of his two ERA titles, he’s well behind Kershaw (173), Verlander (146), Scherzer (138), and Sabathia (113), though he’s got a 10-point bump for 200 wins within his sights. Higher win totals and 3,000 strikeouts are also attainable; he’s 565 away on the latter front, which is about three healthy seasons’ worth.
It will be interesting to see what the near future holds for Greinke. He’s produced 12.2 fWAR and 13.8 bWAR (both including hitting) in his three seasons as a Diamondback but is still owed $104.5 million over the next three seasons, and it’s no secret that the team is itching to shed a salary that’s taking up roughly 25% of its payroll. In a year where the humidor was introduced at Chase Field, turning the park from a very hitter-friendly one to a much more neutral one, he posted the most favorable home/road splits of his Arizona tenure:
| Year | Hm IP | Hm ERA | Hm FIP | Hm wOBA | Rd IP | Rd ERA | Rd FIP | Rd wOBA |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2016 | 78.2 | 4.81 | 4.35 | .335 | 80.0 | 3.94 | 3.48 | .301 |
| 2017 | 116.0 | 2.87 | 3.17 | .268 | 86.1 | 3.65 | 3.88 | .300 |
| 2018 | 106.0 | 2.55 | 3.17 | .263 | 101.2 | 3.90 | 4.26 | .310 |
Via Baseball Savant, Greinke’s average exit velocity at Chase Field actually rose 1.3 mph from last year (86.3) to this (87.6), even while exit velos at the ballpark were down a click from years past. Likewise, his xwOBA rose 19 points, from .295 to .314. One has to wonder if this is a one-year anomaly, or if the humidor has begun masking the decline of a pitcher whose average fastball velocity also took a dip from 2017 (91.0) to 2018 (89.6).
In a winter that should be a relatively lively one for free agents, at least in contrast to the past two seasons, Greinke presents an alternative; if nothing else, he’s shown himself to be more durable than Kershaw (who may opt out of his current deal) and won’t require a commitment beyond 2020. I do suspect that any team considering him will have to take a close look at the splits and the Statcast stuff I’ve highlighted, but whoever winds up with him might be getting a pitcher who’s about to put himself over the top as far as a future plaque in Cooperstown is concerned.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
He’s also a 5 time all star and a 4 time Gold Glover, pending this year’s vote. I know that stuff is less objectively determined, but it will count with the traditional voter. Also, the 49% career CS rate is insanely good.
Some random thoughts:
1) Hard to believe Greinke’s only 34 years old. Seems like he’s been around forever.
2) I know no one cares about wins but his .613 career winning percentage is amazing given that he started off 60-67.
3) I wonder if those two monster seasons hurt him a bit by making it seem like he didn’t reach his potential. And by making all his “merely very good” seasons not look as impressive. That’s particularly true with BR WAR which has a greater contrast between those two seasons and the rest of his career..
Not comparing their actual careers, but in public perception and in my own mind, Greinke and Mussina seem to be similar. It seems to me they are both thought of as very good, not really the best in the league. But upon closer inspection it is surprising how good they look with advanced stats and both will likely be in the hall when all is said and done.
I agree re: the public perception. But I think it’s for different reasons.
Mussina was hurt by being 1) relatively high ERA, 2) overshadowed by better pitchers and 3) never coming close to winning a Cy Young. (his 2nd place finish was a very distant 2nd). But he was in the spotlight, pitching In Baltimore (which included the DC market) and New York.
Greinke, on the other hand, does have a CY Young and came incredibly close to winning a second one. But he’s moved around a bit and, other than than his stint with the Dodgers, has been out of the spotlight (KC, Milwaukee, Arizona, the other LA team).
I do think that players that move around a lot are going to continue to have a harder time getting into the Hall than the numbers otherwise suggest. Maybe it makes it harder for voters to have a clear “defining picture” of the player or those “defining moments”?
And I don’t mean players who move around several times at the end of their careers like Maddux or David Cone.
Nolan Ryan is one of the few that I can think of who played in his prime for more than 3 teams and made it in. Johnson’s prime was really just Mariners and Diamondbacks. Same thing for guys like Pedro, Maddux, etc.
I wonder if “bouncing around from team to team” hurts guys like Kevin Brown (5 teams in his prime), Clemens (4 in his prime), David Wells (8 teams in his prime!), Javier Vazquez (5 teams in his prime), and Greinke (already 5).
I’m not saying all of them should be in, and Clemens has his own unrelated issues. But most of those other guys (Brown especially) should at least get real consideration/discussion, and I don’t think any of them will. With more and more players likely to pitch for 4-5 or more different teams in their prime, I think this may become more of a problem going forward.
I wonder if “jumping ship” too many times (even by trade) makes it hard to have any one or two really devoted fanbases who push for you to be thought of as a Hall of Famer?
Sabathia, Halladay, Verlander, Scherzer seem likely to just have 1-2 teams in their prime. I would bet that helps them over someone like Greinke.
Doesn’t Sabathia have 3? Gotta include the Brewers. Despite the short amount of time he was there, it was his best season by fWAR, bWAR and MVP voting and that was largely due to his incredible run in Milwaukee.
That was about as dominant a stretch as I can remember an SP having, and easily the best run of his own career. He was such a difference maker in that pennant race. He really deserved those MVP votes. 255 ERA+ and 4.9 bWAR in only 17 starts in Milwaukee (which was actually less than half of the 35 he made that year).
Good point. I completely forgot about that. For some reason, I think fans think of Indians and Yankees only, and I would bet that both fanbases would push for him to get into the Hall.
Maybe 1 random year or half year doesn’t make a difference? So Greinke is really seen as just Royals, Dodgers, Dbacks?
If Schilling and Mussina with their 20+ SHO and 80~ War can’t get in, then I think Greinke has got a long road to go. He better put together at least 15 more WAR to get to at least 70 and he may need 250Ws as well. Hamels is probably a better comp to Greinke, and he’s a half step behind Greinke but close. Both need several more good seasons and I don’t see it happening.
True, but mussina and schilling being by passed is a combination of a ridiculously crowded ballot and an electorate that struggles with starting pitching. Once the ballot thins in greinkes eligible years, enough sabermetric ally inclined voters will hopefully push him in, well deserving of the honor.
See I think the voters do know what they want in starting pitchers. They want what they perceive as dominance (plus a little narrative).
Look at what Jay states above:
“since 1992, the BBWAA has elected only three starters who finished with fewer than 300 wins”
While correct, the year 1992 was chosen for obvious reasons. It makes the “problem” look more severe by leaving out Fergie Jenkins and Jim Palmer (elected in 1991 and 1990 respectively).
Beyond that, I think we should look at this idea that the HOF will only elect 300 win pitchers a bit closer. Three points:
1) Do we really think that guys like Maddux or Seaver or Carlton or Randy Johnson would have struggled to get into the HOF if they had fewer than 300 wins? Of course not! The 300 wins was the icing on the top of a VERY large cake. They would have gotten in first ballot even with less than 300 wins. Why? Because they were perceived as dominant (which they were).
2) We’ve also seen guys with 300+ wins struggle to get into the Hall. Don Sutton and Phil Niekro both needed 5 ballots to get into the Hall. And Gaylord Perry, with 314 wins, a 3.11 ERA, 2 Cy Youngs and 90+ career WAR needed 3 ballots. None of those guys were on a crowded ballot. But they all struggled to get in because they weren’t seen as dominant.
3) The same applies to Blyleven, Mussina, and Schilling. Correctly or not, they weren’t seen as dominant. Which is why they’re struggled to get in. Plus a crowded ballot for Mussina and Schilling. Plus politics for Schilling. Had they been perceived as dominant (like Pedro, for example) Schilling and Mussina would already be in and Blyleven would have gotten in quicker.
I think Schilling was seen as dominant, and it’s not so much “politics” as his implicit support for violence against journalists (the very people voting on this) keeping him out. I think without that, he’d already be in, regardless of some of his other offensive stuff. It’s the “hang the media” implication that is keeping him out, I think.
Perhaps but he wasn’t seen as dominant as some of his contemporaries, which is why he wasn’t even close to a first ballot selection. And didn’t crack 50% until his 4th year. He’s still a guy with a 3.46 career ERA, no Cy Youngs, and a bit of an up-and–down career. That doesn’t scream dominance to most voters.
I think this is a fair point. wouldn’t we agree that Kershaw is a first-ballot no-doubter even if he doesn’t reach 200 wins? it’s because he was so dominant for so long. I think a single period of prolonged dominance might be another thing that really catches the attention of voters.
Schilling & Mussina will both get in very soon. The ballot thins out incredibly going forward.
Even if/when the PED candidates get in, there are only 5 or so (Bonds, Clemens, Manny, Ortiz & Pettite) of the current candidates who can still get in through the vote, so even a changed stance on PEDs in the next few years will not necessarily produce a crowded ballot.
Si, for example, projects Mo, Jeter & Halladay as the only first ballot slam-dunk candidates in the next few years. Next year may be the last for a few years with multiple easy elections: Mo, Edgar & Halladay all seem likely.
But only Jeter makes sense from 2020 or 2021 classes- opening the door for obvious Mussina and Schilling elections, as well as a fairly obvious (but late) organized push for Larry Walker. For this reason, Andrew Jones and Scott Rolan are also in much better positions than most would think based on current vote totals- voters will ensure they survive 2019 in order to stand as top candidates in otherwise empty 20 and 21.
In 2022, Big Papi will be up for election in Bonds/Clemens last year. It would not be surprising to see the first large PED class, with Pettite as a ‘Yankee winner’ in the mix as well (something that would seem bizarre if, for example, Mussina and Schilling were not already in).
whoops, I was quoting Jay’s own work. Good coverage and article.
> […] Greinke presents an alternative; if nothing else, he’s shown himself to be more durable than Kershaw (who may opt out of his current deal) and won’t require a commitment beyond 2020. I do suspect that any team considering him […]
Greinke is under contract through 2021 already and does not have an opt out. The only team considering him is the Diamondbacks.
The reference is to a possible trade.
I’d suggest the Yankees as a possible trade candidate, but I assume he’s got a no-trade; he would, and for the very reason of avoiding New York.
Takeaways
1) Zack Greinke was on both the Brewers and Angels in one season.
2) Ervin Santana has been around for a longgggg time.
3) Oh yeah, that Greinke guy is pretty good.
I’m all for Greinke, and as a WAA career aficionado, Cole Hamels as well. Certainly over more ballyhooed candidates like David Ortiz and Yadier Molina who require gyrations and squinting to appear worthy.
Not bad for a guy who looks like a filling station attendant in a Dukes of Hazzard episode.
He’ll make it, and he deserves it. I hope he keeps finishing strong – definitely a great one of the generation.
Always respected the guy for going public with his anxiety issues, which took a lot of courage IMO. I feel the same way about Joey Votto.
Have a question for everybody. Since we’re here, I’m assuming we all have actual conversations about the Hall. Conversations about the Hall can often devolve into statements like “since player A is in, Player B should be in”. At this point, do we just ignore Jack Morris? Because if he’s in, …
I suspect Jaffes work will become less useful going forward as usage of players change. Greinke is clearly one of the top pitchers of his era. Hard to see him not getting in even with middling hall metrics.
If the “opener” comes into being it will really scramble our view of pitching
Kershaw is a case where how ridiculously effective he is in the time that he is on the field (and he’s not a glass vase by any means) I feel outweighs the few seasons that have been noticeably hampered by injury, so I was very surprised to see that WAR doesn’t see him on track for the HOF. This seems like heresy, but I think that while it is a valuable tool in most cases, WAR doesn’t do very well at the margins, either players who are exceptional, but have a somewhat brief run, or players who are “only” good for very long periods of time.
What are you looking at that suggests Kershaw isn’t on track? 60+ WAR and 57 JAWS is way ahead of where he needs to be for a 30 year old with 2100 IP to his name.
I actually misread the chart as saying “where HOF’ers were at this point in their careers,” idk why because there’s multiple players and he’s clearly not equalizing career length for them. Just a stupid mistake, he’s clearly “on pace.” But… one thing still sticks out which is his Peak 7-yrs of 49.6 vs the Avg Peak of 50.1. I get that it’s a small difference but one could be forgiven for assuming Kershaw’s body of work has been above average even for the lofty HOF standards. Assuming the 7 year stretch is 2010 through 2016 he averaged 212 innings, 233 strikeouts, a 2.18 ERA, and had 3 seasons with an ERA under 2. Anecdotally there’s very few pitchers who’ve had a run I would stack up against that.
I think he should get in. Since he came into the league how many pitchers have been better than him? Verlander has led his league in WAR 5 times, plus has another 7 WIN season besides that so I’d put him ahead, Kershaw is Kershaw and Scherzer has won 3 Cys. But outside of them 3 I can’t say for sure any SP has been better than him the past decade. Being a top 5 SP for over a decade should be enough to get in the hall imo.