Searching for a Comp for the Ultimate Signature Pitch

Apparently this is the week where I do whatever anyone says. Yesterday I identified some comps for various signature pitches around the league. In the subsequent comments, a request:

Well-Beered Englishman says:
As long as we’re making requests, I say hop in the time machine and compare somebody to Mariano.

So it shall be. Let’s see if we can find a decent comparison for Mariano Rivera’s cutter, which has been the most signature of signature pitches. There’s been no greater example of hitters being unable to do much despite knowing exactly what’s coming. With Rivera, there wasn’t a lot of mystery. Just precise, pinpoint location, in areas that ensured his success.

In terms of style, the best comparison for Rivera is probably Kenley Jansen. Jansen dominates with a cutter and little else, and if that sounds familiar, it’s because that was Rivera’s whole game. But this investigation is a little different: this is looking for cutters most like Rivera’s cutter. Research was performed using the Baseball Prospectus PITCHf/x leaderboards and Brooks Baseball player pages.

The first step was getting Rivera’s information. I decided to use his data from 2011, because that fell within the PITCHf/x era, and it was a typical dominant Rivera year. For those of you who haven’t followed the process, I’m looking at just velocity, horizontal movement, and vertical movement, for pitchers of the same handedness. After plugging in Rivera’s numbers, I assembled numbers for all righties who threw at least 50 cutters in 2014. Then I added in sliders, because sliders and cutters are thrown similarly and they can be hard to tell apart.

For each of the three categories, I calculated the z-score separation between Rivera and the given pitcher. I took the absolute value of each, then I just added them together to get a comparison rating. The closer the number is to 0, the better the comparison it is. Here now: the top five best comps, based on the above method.

Pitcher Pitch Velocity Horizontal Vertical Comp Rating
Mariano Rivera CT 92.3 2.2 7.1
Logan Ondrusek CT 91.7 1.7 7.8 0.7
David Robertson CT 92.6 2.4 9.1 0.9
A.J. Ramos CT 91.5 1.2 6.5 1.0
Danny Farquhar CT 90.2 1.5 7.2 1.1
Wade Davis CT 92.6 2.5 4.8 1.1

Just like everyone suspected: it’s Logan Ondrusek! The most comparable cutter to Mariano Rivera’s signature cutter is apparently thrown by Logan Ondrusek. Now that actually is interesting, and I could stop here if I wanted, but let’s take this a little further. I want to note that I’m not convinced A.J. Ramos’ cutter is a different pitch from his fastball. Whatever the case, in 2011, Rivera threw his cutter about 88% of the time. According to Brooks Baseball, here are the five cutter frequencies:

Robertson: 62%
Farquhar: 56%
Davis: 20%
Ondrusek: 15%
Ramos: 7%

Those are some mighty big spreads, and some mighty big differences. For a couple guys, the cutter is a primary pitch, as it was with Rivera. But for the other three, the cutter looks like a secondary weapon. And I don’t think those would make for fair comps if we’re talking about maybe the greatest pitch of all time. I want to hold this method to a higher standard. It seems like the best candidate here would be Robertson or Farquhar.

Keep going. Let’s look at some measures of consistency. For each pitcher, one standard deviation of cutter velocity:

Rivera: +/- 1.06 mph
Robertson: +/- 1.17
Farquhar: +/- 1.23

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Not bad — Rivera shows up as the most consistent, and then Robertson ranks a little ahead of Farquhar. Horizontal release point, throwing to righties:

Rivera: +/- 0.18 inches
Robertson: +/- 0.14
Farquhar: +/- 0.21

The same, throwing to lefties:

Rivera: +/- 0.16 inches
Robertson: +/- 0.15
Farquhar: +/- 0.18

And now vertical release point:

Rivera: +/- 0.14 inches
Robertson: +/- 0.10
Farquhar: +/- 0.14

Wouldn’t you know it, but in some ways, Robertson was a little more consistent than Rivera. At least, in Robertson’s 2014, relative to Rivera’s 2011. And I think Robertson gets an edge over Farquhar. His cutter is a slightly better match, he throws it slightly more often, and he throws it with slightly more consistency. I came into this looking for the best comp for Mariano Rivera’s cutter. The method led me straight to the guy who replaced him.

Rivera:

Rivera_Cutter

Robertson:

Robertson_Cutter

There are differences, of course. Rivera was trying to throw cutters. With Robertson, it seems a lot of the cutting movement has just come naturally. Rivera wasn’t able to teach his cutter to Robertson; Robertson, also, is appropriately humble.

Of all the Yankees who’ve studied the great cutter, David Robertson has come closest to copying it. He says, “On a good day, every once in a while, I’ll throw one like Mariano’s.”

And don’t forget that Rivera would sometimes throw nine cutters out of ten pitches. For every three Robertson pitches, he’ll mix in a curve. But it is clear that Robertson’s cutter has been in development — it hasn’t always been like this. It’s become more like Rivera’s cutter over time. A table of average movements:

Season Horizontal Vertical
2008 -0.4 11.0
2009 0.6 10.9
2010 0.3 10.7
2011 0.4 10.1
2012 1.4 9.3
2013 1.2 9.0
2014 2.4 9.1

Something seemed to click between 2011 and 2012. Robertson tweaked his cutter, and he simultaneously managed to trim his walk rate. This past year, he added even more cut than he already had. While Robertson has always been successful, he appears to still be learning, and there are worse things than gradually becoming more and more similar to the greatest relief pitcher in the history of the sport.

Still, Robertson’s cutter isn’t Rivera’s cutter. Just because it’s the closest comp doesn’t mean it’s identically good, and Robertson can’t match Rivera’s location. Nobody can. Consider these heat maps, showing cutters from Rivera’s 2011 and Robertson’s 2014. Facing right-handed hitters:

rivera_robertson_rhb

Facing left-handed hitters:

rivera_robertson_lhb

Rivera lived in the same two places. He was famous for it. Robertson’s patterns are more scattered, and as a result, Rivera threw 17% of his cutters in what I’d loosely define as the heart of the strike zone. Robertson last year came in at 22%. Over the whole PITCHf/x era, Robertson is at 22%; Rivera comes in barely above 15%. With his cutter, Rivera seldom made mistakes. With his cutter, Robertson also seldom makes mistakes, but he does make more of them, maybe once or twice per 20 pitches, and that’s meaningful given the volume of pitches thrown in a season. No one could locate like Rivera. It’s unfair to even try to hold Robertson to the same standard.

And he should be pleased for coming this close. The most dominant cutter in the game today belongs to Kenley Jansen. Yet the cutter that most resembles Mariano Rivera’s cutter belongs to David Robertson. It’s not exactly the same pitch. It’s not exactly as effective. Just, consider who we’re comparing to. Almost doesn’t only count in horseshoes and hand grenades. It also counts in comparisons to Mariano Rivera. At the end of the day, you have to be reasonable.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

28 Comments
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Eminor3rd
11 years ago

Next request: Chris Sale’s slider

better request
11 years ago
Reply to  Eminor3rd

Randy Johnson’s slider

francis
11 years ago
Reply to  Eminor3rd

Gyroball

Hee-Seop Choi
11 years ago

Those heat maps are incredible.

cass
11 years ago
Reply to  Hee-Seop Choi

Agreed. Mo was one-of-a-kind. And those heat maps are from when he was old!

wildcard09
11 years ago
Reply to  Hee-Seop Choi

Yeah that was my first thought. absolutely nasty locations. Especially inside to righties.

Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  wildcard09

I’ll never forget Mark DeRosa saying that he was called out on strikes by a cutter that he swears to this day was going to drill him in the ribs.

Kyle
11 years ago

Will copy and paste my question from the last comments section as this article is newer and hopefully more people will see it!

Could someone help explain the comp rating/z-score business? I’m trying to do some calculations but I’m getting very bizarre numbers. If you could share the formula and which values are being used I’d be greatly appreciative!

Gauss
11 years ago
Reply to  Kyle

Z-scores are simply a measure of standard deviations away from the mean, or in this case distance from a target pitch

Catoblepas
11 years ago

Jeff, you are a wonderful person. This has been a fun series of articles. As long as we’re making requests, can we see what the actual “most signature” pitch has been? The math might be gory, but I’m thinking the pitch with the fewest nearby pitchers, with nearby defined as inside a certain z-score threshold or something along those lines.

matt w
11 years ago
Reply to  Catoblepas

Probably R.A. Dickey.

rusty
11 years ago
Reply to  matt w

Seems like the Z-score method wouldn’t do a great job with a knuckler — if we’re looking at average horizontal and vertical displacement, we aren’t capturing the variance and unpredictability that makes it so good.

cass
11 years ago

While you’re taking requests…

Not quite as dramatic as Mo’s cutter, perhaps, but it might be worth taking a look at Strasburg’s change. I recall that being the most valuable pitch in baseball a couple years back (2012 I think?) and it still should rank quite highly. Also a thing of beauty.

fothead
11 years ago

So glad you did this. When reading the first piece, Mariano was the first guy I thought of. As was said, I don’t know if there’s been another “more” signature pitch than Mo’s cutter in any of our lifetimes except maybe those old enough to remember Sutter’s split or maybe Valenzuela’s screwgy. (Does anyone today even throw a screwball, do teams even allow it due to it’s seemingly awkward release?) But thanks for the comp. Interesting it lead to the guy Mo passed the torch to.

I’ve wondered if Mo has a future as a pitching coach. He always seemed to love teaching teammates out in the bullpen, and anyone he can teach even a reasonable representation of his cutter would become instantly better.

Casper
11 years ago
Reply to  fothead

Hector Santiago throws a screwball.

GMH
11 years ago
Reply to  fothead

Most change ups are thrown with heavy forearm pronation, and so they have movement comparable to a screwball. Pitch f/x would probably classify Fernando’s screwball as a change up if he were pitching today.

Bob
11 years ago

Jeff theres some times where you are completely off base with value, but you write some truly fascinating researched articles.

witesoxfan
11 years ago

I’m not reading anything more, all I’m reading is that the White Sox signed Mariano Rivera with a curveball, which is easily the *new* greatest reliever of all time.

jrubyMember since 2016
11 years ago

Can we find a comp for Vicente Padilla’s swing?

MTAF
11 years ago

With Mo we always heard about his movement being ‘late breaking’. Do we have objective data to back that up?

MTAF
11 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Sullivan

That’s a good start! I wonder then what the comparable breaks at say, 20 feet from home are for the other comparable pitchers.

vince
11 years ago

What about Maddux’s cutter? Isn’t that arguably the most interesting pitch of all time? Was it location or movement? He featured it as a starter for 20 years.

GMH
11 years ago
Reply to  vince

Maddux didn’t throw the cutter often, and it wasn’t a particularly effective pitch for him. His two-seam fastball and his circle change were his signature pitches.

Hank
11 years ago
Reply to  vince

Cutter or 2 seamer?

If you are thinking about the fastball that he would start in on lefthanders and run it back to grab the inside corner, that’s a 2 seam fastball

He threw some cutters but I’m pretty sure it was a fairly low %.

Jon L.
11 years ago

This is almost as good as it actually being baseball season.

AyeBernie
11 years ago

I’m late reading this series of articles but I am enjoying them. I played with Robertson at Alabama. I am witness that your observation of his cutter being more of a natural pitch is correct. He could not throw a straight 4seam if he tried…and he did try. It all has to do with the placement of his thumb in his grip. It’s an awkward grip where he tucks his thumb under the ball which really takes away some stabilization compared to a more typical thumb placement. As a former pitcher it is beyond me how he actually is able to control it all, but that’s how he learned it at a younger age so it seems natural to him. Being around Rivera looks to have really help him become more consistent in the action of the pitch. I would think he probably tweaked his thumb placement to give him a little more feel for the cutter to help with locating the pitch. Riveras pin point location is the difference. The heat map is nice. Really shows that Mariana knew where to miss if he missed which is off the plate. D Rob just doesmt have that as of yet but has time to progress year to year.

On another note I was wondering if there is a way to get the distance at the pitchers release point and factor that in bc that can make a pitcher that might throw With a little more velo but release it farther from the plate be pretty much equal to a guy that throws with a little lower velo but releases the ball closer to the plate. Now if we could add that into the equation we would be making another step forward here.