2016 Trade Value: #41 to #50
Alright, now that we’ve gotten the introduction and the honorable mentions out of the way, let’s get to the actual list. I strongly encourage you to read both of the linked articles for an explanation of the question we’re trying to answer and a bunch of names who could easily have ended up in this post, but despite a crowded field, these 10 guys were able to nail down spots in the Trade Value series.
It’s a risk-filled group, with some serious upside and downside throughout, but these guys are all young enough to turn into franchise players, and most of them could help a team win right now as well.
Also, thanks to Sean Dolinar, we’ve significantly upgraded the way we’re presenting the information here. On the individual player tables, the Guaranteed Dollars and Team Control WAR — which are provided by Dan Szymborski’s ZIPS projections — rows give you an idea of what kind of production and costs a team could expect going forward, though to be clear, we’re not counting the rest of 2016 in those numbers; they’re just included for reference of what a player’s future status looks like. And as a reminder, we’re not ranking players based on those projections, as teams aren’t going to just make trades based on the ZIPS forecasts. That said, they’re a useful tool to provide some context about what a player might do for the next few years.
And with those logistics out of the way, let’s get to the list itself.
| Team Control WAR Total | +11.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #47 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 25 | +3.7 | Arb1 |
| 2018 | 26 | +3.9 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 27 | +3.5 | Arb3 |
A couple of years ago, a lot of people — myself included — were skeptical that Martinez would succeed as a starter, but he’s now logged over 300 innings in the Cardinals rotation, and he’s been as good there as he was in the bullpen. The negatives haven’t entirely gone away, as he’s still a diminutive right-hander with some past arm problems and some weakness against left-handed batters, but the stuff has remained elite even after transitioning roles, and he’s showing this year that his BABIP problems of the past weren’t a harbinger of doom. With only three years of team control remaining after 2016, this is very likely to be Martinez’s last year on the list, but long-term value matters less for pitchers than with hitters, and Martinez would command a monster return if St. Louis put him on the blocks this summer.
| Five-Year WAR | +16.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 25 | +3.4 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 26 | +3.5 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 27 | +3.2 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 28 | +3.2 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 29 | +3.1 | Arb3 |
What’s a 24-year-old with a career ERA of 4.94 doing here? Well, for one, a 4.94 ERA for a pitcher in Colorado isn’t actually any kind of disaster, as his career ERA- is just 103, which is right at league average for a starting pitcher. And since teams have moved beyond ERA for pitcher evaluations, there would be a ton of interest in getting Gray out of altitude if the Rockies would let him go. His stuff and strikeout rates have taken a leap forward this year, and 6-foot-4 high-velocity starters who miss bats, avoid walks, and get ground balls are in high demand. Toss in the fact that he’ll make the league minimum the next couple of years, and Gray’s combination of present value, upside, and cost control make him highly appealing to every other club in baseball.
| Team Control WAR Total | +15.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 23 | +3.7 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 24 | +3.8 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 25 | +4.1 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 26 | +4.1 | Arb3 |
Odor is a polarizing player, with his glaring weaknesses — the lack of walks, the defensive issues, and his temper — stacking up against his elite combination of contact and power rates for a player his age, and his terrific baserunning making him a potential high-end offensive player. His edges need plenty of polishing, but he’s already a quality big leaguer, and given that he’s younger than a bunch of the guys who played in yesterday’s Futures Game, it’s easy to dream on the upside if he starts improving on his weak spots. Not many 22-year-olds can match Odor’s present value, and so even as he marches towards his arbitration years, Odor is one of the game’s most valuable combinations of short-term and long-term value.
| Team Control WAR Total | +11.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 26 | +3.3 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 27 | +3.1 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 28 | +2.8 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 29 | +2.7 | Arb3 |
Lamb was not an easy guy to place this year. His first half is so different than anything he’s ever done that it’s easy to write it off as a fluke — and, as you can see from the forecasts, ZIPS isn’t buying into his breakout. One of the hardest parts of putting this together every year is to not overreact to recent performance, and if Lamb goes back to being a good-not-great hitter, then there’s probably not enough value to justify his placement here. But as August Fagerstrom wrote this morning, Lamb’s power surge has come from a retooled swing, and there’s also a real chance that this is the beginning of Lamb’s emergence as one of the best young sluggers in the game. With teams paying a premium for power, and Lamb playing a pretty good third base, as well, there would plenty of teams willing to take a bet on Lamb’s breakout, even if he’s only been playing at this level for a few months.
| Five-Year WAR | +14.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 22 | +2.7 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 23 | +3.0 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +2.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 25 | +2.8 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 26 | +2.7 | Arb2 |
On the one hand, Reyes is a pitching prospect who hasn’t yet made the big leagues, and is struggling to throw strikes consistently in Triple-A. On the other hand, the stuff is at the very top of the scale, as he showed in his dominant Futures Game outing yesterday, regularly hitting 100 mph with his fastball and showing that his curve and changeup can both be out-pitches. I got more than one Noah Syndergaard comparison when talking to industry friends about him, and while there’s plenty of risk here, he’s also the kind of guy who could be pushing up against the top 10 next year. The upside is too high to ignore, and Reyes is close enough to the big leagues that even teams looking for present value could think about putting him right on the big-league staff if they picked him up in trade. There aren’t many guys on the list with a wider range of outcomes than Reyes, but he balances the risk with a legitimate shot at becoming a dominating ace, and teams would pay for the right to hope that he reaches that potential.
| Team Control WAR Total | +13.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $37.3 M |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 26 | +3.6 | $6.3 M |
| 2018 | 27 | +3.7 | $8.0 M |
| 2019 | 28 | +3.3 | $11.0 M |
| 2020 | 29 | +3.3 | $12.0 M |
The guy on this list most likely to be traded, Teheran has picked a good time to have the best year of his career. Teheran’s 2015 wasn’t great, but he’s bounced back in a big way, carving hitters up with improved secondary stuff and getting hitters to chase pitches out of the zone, leading to both strikeouts and a lot of weak contact. With three years and a team option for a fourth left on his early-career extension, Teheran is also locked in at bargain prices, and would give any team that trades for the Braves ace a quality pitcher who could be expected to continue to provide value for years to come. The downside, of course, is that the Braves just sold off a guy whose dominance relied heavily on weak contact, and the Diamondbacks’ current pain is a reminder of the risk of betting on guys with this skillset. But Teheran has a better track record than Shelby Miller did, and if they choose to trade him this summer, they’ll get a pretty great return.
| Five-Year WAR | +14.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $46.5 M |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | #34 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 27 | +3.3 | $3.0 M |
| 2018 | 28 | +3.3 | $7.5 M |
| 2019 | 29 | +2.9 | $10.0 M |
| 2020 | 30 | +2.7 | $13.0 M |
| 2021 | 31 | +2.2 | $13.0 M |
The Royals’ star catcher is one of the most dynamic backstops in the game, playing basically every day, and getting a lot of credit for the team’s success over the last few years. But this year, he’s also made some changes to his offensive game, swinging for the fences more often and eschewing ground balls, allowing him to add real power to his skillset. With a more productive level of offense, a sterling defensive reputation, and absurd durability given his workload, Perez has emerged as a tremendously valuable player. And even after the Royals re-worked his contract in order to reward him for his performance, he remains wildly underpaid, as his 2017 salary is in line with what a broken middle reliever gets in free agency. Perez might not age that well, given his size and what the Royals have asked him to do early in his career, but for the next few years, he’s a terrific player making peanuts.
| Team Control WAR Total | +12.3 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | #12 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 25 | +3.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 26 | +3.2 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 27 | +3.1 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 28 | +2.9 | Arb3 |
A year ago, Pederson nearly cracked the top 10 on this list, as he was running a 137 wRC+ on the back of some of the best power of any young hitter in baseball. Since then, though, he’s posted just a 98 wRC+, as the power has regressed heavily, and for a swing-and-miss slugger, it’s tough to remain a quality hitter without hitting a bunch of home runs. While Pederson has bounced back some this year after a miserable second half of 2015, it seems pretty clear that I overreacted to his 2015 first half, and he’s probably more of a good player going forward than a great one. But he does still have high-end power, and teams still do pay a premium for guys who can crush the baseball; additionally, he’s made a big improvement in his contact rate this year, and he’s young enough for teams to dream on him as a Chris Davis-type with the ability to play center field. Plenty of risk here, but plenty of upside as well, and he’s got the kind of skillset for which teams overpay. Hopefully this year’s ranking is a somewhat better evaluation of the risks and rewards of this kind of player than last year’s optimistic outlook.
| Five-Year WAR | +17.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 24 | +3.5 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 25 | +3.6 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 26 | +3.5 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 27 | +3.3 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 28 | +3.3 | Arb3 |
Speaking of high-strikeout sluggers, it’s a bit fitting (though unintentional) that Story and Pederson ended up side by side, as a bet on the Rockies shortstop isn’t that different from a bet on the Dodgers center fielder. Story certainly has shown enticing power for a guy who can play up the middle, but his strikeout rates also means he comes with plenty of risk, as he needs to keep hitting home runs in order to remain an offensive asset, and with only a half season of big-league performance, the track record is pretty short. But Story is also just 23, he’s been making adjustments as the season has gone along, and his contact rate isn’t actually that scary for the kind of power he’s shown. If he can refine his plate discipline a bit, Story could easily become one of the best offensive middle infielders in the game, and with five years of control remaining after this season, he’d provide plenty of long-term value to any team making a bet on his power.
| Five-Year WAR | +15.0 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2022 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | 22 | +2.4 | Pre-Arb |
| 2018 | 23 | +2.8 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +3.0 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 25 | +3.5 | Arb1 |
| 2021 | 26 | +3.3 | Arb2 |
If we were just going by performance to this point, Giolito wouldn’t crack the top 50, as he’s been more good than dominant in his climb up the minor-league ladder. And it’s not like his big-league debut last week was overwhelmingly positive. But the combination of size and stuff remains highly attractive, as his scouting profile makes him more valuable than his performance record to date, and if the Nationals put him on the block as a trade chip, they’d have a lot of teams beating down their door to land a potential #1 starter. There’s clear risk here, especially with a Tommy John surgery already in his history, but like with Reyes, the upside is too high for teams to walk away from. At some point, he’s going have to start dominating hitters like scouts expect, but for now, the potential still makes him one of the most valuable assets in the game.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2017 | 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 41 | – | Lucas Giolito | 21 | +2.4 Pre-Arb |
+2.8 Pre-Arb |
+3.0 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
| 42 | – | Trevor Story | 23 | +3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
+3.3 Arb3 |
| 43 | 12 | Joc Pederson | 24 | +3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.1 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
|
| 44 | 34 | Salvador Perez | 26 | +3.3 $3.0 M |
+3.3 $7.5 M |
+2.9 $10.0 M |
+2.7 $13.0 M |
+2.2 $13.0 M |
| 45 | – | Julio Teheran | 25 | +3.6 $6.3 M |
+3.7 $8.0 M |
+3.3 $11.0 M |
+3.3 $12.0 M |
|
| 46 | – | Alex Reyes | 21 | +2.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.0 Pre-Arb |
+2.9 Pre-Arb |
+2.8 Arb1 |
+2.7 Arb2 |
| 47 | – | Jake Lamb | 25 | +3.3 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Arb1 |
+2.8 Arb2 |
+2.7 Arb3 |
|
| 48 | – | Rougned Odor | 22 | +3.7 Pre-Arb |
+3.8 Arb1 |
+4.1 Arb2 |
+4.1 Arb3 |
|
| 49 | – | Jon Gray | 24 | +3.4 Pre-Arb |
+3.5 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.2 Arb2 |
+3.1 Arb3 |
| 50 | 47 | Carlos Martinez | 24 | +3.7 Arb1 |
+3.9 Arb2 |
+3.5 Arb3 |
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Salvador moving down 10 spots seems odd to me. He’s striking out more than ever, but like you said, he’s exchanged contract for a career-high in ISO, and is on pace to reach or exceed a career best in fWAR.
That all said, for years Ned has talked about giving Perez breathers and time off but that simply doesn’t happen. For a guy who just turned 26 it sure FEELS like he’s going to have a real sudden drop off or injury.
The reworking of his contract didn’t help his value, as the Royals attached some long-term risk to the deal that wasn’t there before, and increased his short-term costs at the same time by changing the salary structure. And keep in mind that it’s perfectly normal to lose value on this series; Perez already churned through one very cheap year of his deal since last year’s list was published.
Dave’s inclusion of Perez on this list seems to contradict his statements in the introductory article about weakly weighting defensive value. Without his defensive value Perez is a below-average, teetering on replacement level player. I would like to know how Dave squares this with his ranking the guy as a Top 50 trade value.
The only way Perez would be a replacement level player is if he was a DH. There’s a difference between “teams don’t pay the same price for defensive value” and “teams don’t know what position a guy plays”.
Dave, thanks for responding. I remain confused though. Brandon Crawford seems indisputably a better hitter than Salvador Perez (also, as a response to the commenter below, Sabrtooth, you are weighting early-career performance too highly to arrive at that number. ZiPS projects below average ROS)
Surely teams “know what position” Crawfrod plays. Given he is a better offensive contributor than Perez and given the similarity in contracts (though I do realize Crawford gets a bit more per year), i do not see why you chose Perez over him. I am certainly open (and hoping) to be educated though!
2016 wRC+: Crawford 115, Perez 113
Career wRC+: Crawford 99, Perez 101
Projected ROS wRC+: Crawford 99, Perez 96
The idea that there’s some dramatic offensive difference between them is simply incorrect. Defensively, both are considered high-end players, as teams give Perez a lot of credit for being able to play as often as he does, control the running game, and believe he’s a big part of why the Royals have been able to develop elite run-prevention teams without high-quality pitchers.
Crawford is also three years older than Perez. Even with catcher aging and Perez’s workload, Crawford’s less likely to hold onto his current value than Perez is, and teams are vary wary of paying for defense for guys over 30.
Add in the fact that Perez makes $20 million less over the next five years, and there are just too many factors in Perez’s favor to ignore.
All fair (and great) points–thats why I read FG. Thanks for responding! I was surprised to see such similar offensive projections for the two given Crawford’s above-average performance in 14 and 15 and Perez’ below average ones but I should have looked at that before penning my comment.
Big ups to civil discourse. An exchange just happened on the Internet where both parties were engaged and expressed concerns without name calling or spiraling into pettiness. Points were made, misunderstandings were acknowledged, and everyone is better for it.
Dave Cameron, Tinmanryan, yall the real MVPs.
(Also, totally looking forward to the rest of the list. It’s always a treat.)
@tanmaryan Catcher has much less depth as a position in comparison to SS as well now with all the good young shortstops. That could play a role in the rankings or at least it would for me.
Well one was an honorable mention and the other was at the bottom of the list so they’re basically adjacent…
I’m not a Perez fan, but he’s a career-average 101 wRC+ at catcher. That’s not even close to replacement-level.
He’s 5th in +wRC among qualified catchers.
Really like the new layout for each player, looks great!
Same here. I like this format a lot more than previous years.
Thanks, everyone! As always, we appreciate any feedback we can get on our tables, visuals and various other data tools.
I do have one minor criticism (though I may be alone here) but I don’t love the way the player names are set up as the chart titles. For some reason, when I was reading my eyes tended to just gloss over the names even though that’s obviously the most important part. Maybe this is just a me problem but something simple like bolding the titles may help with this? As I said it’s a really minor point and I love the new format either way.
Wonderful, of course. I really like the new formatting.
I would suggest making league adjustments to fWAR. It’s pretty clear that the American League is quite a bit better.
I’d bet dollars to donuts that if you offered Aaron Sanchez and Jon Gray around the league, Sanchez would get a significantly higher return (Gray is a fine young pitcher and probably does belong on the list). The same context adjustments that people would apply to Gray for pitching well in the toughest environment, would apply in spades to pitching exceptionally well in the toughest division.
“WAR = (Batting Runs + Base Running Runs +Fielding Runs + Positional Adjustment + League Adjustment +Replacement Runs) / (Runs Per Win)”
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/
There is a league adjustment in WAR, and yes, it reflects that the AL is the superior league.
For what its worth, I talked with a bunch of people in the game in compiling this list, and no one really pushed for Sanchez’s inclusion. Lots of people like him, of course, but there’s still a lot of risk there. Could someone prefer him over Gray? Of course, since we’re dealing with small margins here. But I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about the “significantly higher return”.
Thanks, Dave. It surprises me because Sanchez has had so much more success than Gray but I haven’t spoken to baseball people as you have. Judgments about young pitchers are the subject of the most dispute.
Sanchez has pitched 184.1 innings as a starter and has a 3.87 xFIP, 18.9 K% and 9.6 BB%.
Gray has pitched 129.1 innings as a starter and has an xFIP of 3.65, 24.5 K% and 7.8 BB%.
I’m curious what criteria you are using to determine that Sanchez has had “so much more success than Gray”.
Sanchez: 6.4ip/gs, 57.1gb%, 75era-, 93xfip-
Gray: 5.4ip/gs, 46.3gb%, 103era-, 90xfip-
So in your mind things like innings pitched per start (which seems like an awfully flawed stat) ERA and ground ball % massively outweigh things like K’s, BB’s and FIP?
Let me guess, you are a Jays fan?
Yes, innings pitched per start is massively important. Putting up good numbers in sheltered innings is not close to as hard as doing it as a work horse. If Sanchez had been pulled an inning eaely every start his numbers would be much better.
And yes, when their xfip- has been about the same, Gray having an era- 35% higher than Sanchez is a pretty huge deal, and is directly related to Sanchez being one of the elite groundball pitchers in mlb.
And then of course if we look at this year’s data the gap is even bigger.
And yes, I am a jays fan, but I wouldn’t dare compare a Jays pitcher to another pitcher if their IP/gs and ERA- weren’t remotely close, just because of comparable fippies.
IP/GS doesnt tell you anything about how a pitcher actually performed though. Nearly every qualified SP is going to avg somewhere between 5.5 and 6.5 innings regardless of how good they have actually pitched simply because they are expected to pitch around 5-6 innings.
The worst SP in MLB this year by WAR is Jon Niese (-0.4). He has still averaged 5.6 IP/GS. Noah Syndergaard, the second best pitcher by WAR, has averaged 6.1 IP/GS. Matt Moore has an fWAR of only 1.0, and ERA- of 108 and an xFIP of over 5.00. He has still averaged 6 IP/GS. By IP/GS those three pitchers are nearly identical. So what exactly is IP/GS telling you?
Not to mention that all sorts of other factors could cause a better pitcher to throw fractionally fewer innings per start. A high strike out guy is going to throw more pitches than a contact guy and likely hit his limit sooner. A guy who pitches for a team with a deep bullpen will likely get taken out sooner then the opposite. Which coincidently could easily explain why Sanchez pitches slightly deeper than Gray. The Jays lead all of baseball in terms of IP by starters. They leave there starters in longer than anyone. It has nothing to do with Sanchez as much as it has to do with John Gibbons.
I honestly don’t see how you can glean anything of importance by looking at IP/GS, let alone call it “massively important”. You might as well look at wins and losses. Its an awful stat.
I couldn’t disagree more. In fact, you’ve touched on my single biggest issue with pitching WAR in general. It completely ignores the value of going deep into games, when its value is huge,
The difference between 5.5 and 6.5ip is massive. That’s 20% more performance. Moreover, it’s by far the HARDEST 20% – when the pitcher’s arm is at its most tired, and when the hitters are facing him a 3rd and 4th time. And you’re underestimating the numbers here – 5.5ip/gs is near the bottom, sure, but the top end is 7 or higher, which is closer to 30% more performance. And, again, by far the HARDEST 30%. IMO the difference here is arguably as big as comparing a full time hitter to a LH platoon player who doesn’t face lefties – they might put up the same rate stats, but one of them is doing it without having to deal with the toughest 30% of his job.
Now back in the day when WAR was just getting started, there were wide discrepancies in manager usage – there were still guys idiotically letting pitchers throw 120-130 pitches every game while the smart teams were capping them at 100. Rewarding pitchers for that kind of stupid usage back then went against everything that sabermetrics stood for, so it was understandable it was never looked at as an advantage. But that usage difference has all but dissappeared at this point – most every team respects the 100 pitch limit diligently, and uses a similar bullpen setup with 3 late inning guys to finish it off. The “manager decision” part of it used to be true, but it really isn’t anymore. Your point about Gibbons shows why – Jays’ starters didn’t go deep very much at all in previous years, but are this year. Why? because they are pitching much better. The manager hasn’t changed – the performance has. They don’t even have particularly high pitch counts. They’ve been the most efficient staff in baseball. Going deeper into games is a result of performance.
On the flipside, a guy like Dickey is looking much better this year – why? a good amount of that is due to Gibbons having a quicker hook with him this year – last year he got smashed 3rd/4th time through the order, this time he’s not put in that situation nearly as often, and his numbers look better as a result. Does that mean he’s actually been better? probably not. Just sheltered more.
As for your “other factors” – you touched on a key point – EFFICIENCY IS GOOD. It is a skill. YES, there is a negative side to striking out too many guys – it makes you less efficient, prevents you from playing as much as more efficient pitchers and helping your team more. And not only does efficiency increase YOUR impact and value to the team, but it also saves your team a good 1-2 relief outings PER GAME on average – this not only means less burden on the bullpen, but also less reliance on the worst pitchers on the team (middle relievers).
As for your Niese/Thor/Moore point – yes, I do hold Thor’s ip/gs against him. If he pitched an extra inning per start like the real aces do, i don’t think his numbers would be as impressive. Unfortunately, as of now, war doesn’t account for that difference other than in a straight up innings count.
And you’re underestimating the numbers here – 5.5ip/gs is near the bottom, sure, but the top end is 7 or higher, which is closer to 30% more performance
Well first off, 30% more IP doesn’t necessarily mean 30% more performance. If the pitcher in question isnt that good for the extra 30% then what are you really getting?
But more importantly that is 30% more between the highest and the lowest. IE; The two extremes. I dont think anyone would be surprised that the best pitchers are 20-30% better than the worst pitchers.
For nearly all pitchers the difference in IP/GS less than one inning. Which means its almost no difference at all. The league average last year for IP/GS among the 79 qualified starters was 6 IP/GS. 77 of the 79 starters are less than an inning above or below that. The only ones that werent were Kuechel and Kershaw. So there is really no significant difference between most starters when it comes to IP/GS. The vast majority of them have under a 10% difference. That alone makes it pretty useless as an evaluation.
You also havent addressed how IP/GS tells you anything about how a pitcher actually performed. Bad pitchers can have the same IP/GS as good pitchers. In fact, as I just showed, they will almost certainly will have very similar IP/GS. John Danks had an IP/GS of 5.9 last year. Carlos Carrasco was at 6.1. I dont care what metric you care to use, Carrasco was undoubtedly a much, much better pitcher than Danks was. Yet IP/GS tells you nothing. Its meaningless.
Basically you are arguing that a worse pitcher pitching for fractionally more innings is more valuable than a better pitcher pitching for fractionally fewer innings. Which, is pretty absurd when you actually think about it.
no you are intentionally missing the point.
at no point did I say a pitcher is better simply by virtue of pitching deeper into games. it is merely one performance factor of many that cann’t be ignored.
No, I understand your point completly. The problem is that you are just wrong.
IP/GS has very little (if any) correlation with performance. That is pretty easily shown by simply looking at the leaderboards. Which means its pretty useless as a performance evaluator (which is what you are trying to use it for). Its really no different than simply looking at raw IP. The fact that you insist it has importance doesnt make it so.
Also ignores that in the NL, SPs might get pulled in close games in favor of a pinch hitter for reasons outside of in-game performance.
NL SP actually average more IP/GS.
Looks like Gray got a bonus because a trade would take him “out of altitude.” Did Story get a corresponding penalty?
This is awesome. Perfect time of the season to publish.
Before the trolls arrive, a reminder that you can hide them from your feed with BanGraphs: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bangraphs/jbklgbooodaeiefiamgacpccjbfelpaj
Is it safe to say, that you’d basically expect players to lose ranking on this list rather than gaining? Especially since they are aging and losing affordable time control?
Correct. The natural progression of a player is to move down the list; it takes a pretty special performance (or agreeing to a below market extension) for a guy to go up.
Or you could be like Joc Pederson and move down because the first half of your 2015 was a mirage.
This explanation is Dave’s “get out of jail free” card in case he shoots way too high on young players/prospects that turn out to underachieve (which happens quite often).
Today’s game is dominated by young players, and even were that not the case, youth is still an asset in a trade.
Today’s game is dominated by Clayton Kershaw. Like, more than virtually everyone else.
And Joc has a 115 wRC+ this year, identical to last year, which includes his “mirage” first half. You talk about him like he’s some kind of bust.
He isn’t one of the top 12 trade assets in baseball and he never was, which Dave properly amended a year later. So yeah, I never said “bust”.
What explanation? You expect Dave to get the list 100% correct? I’m pretty sure we’ve seen baseball teams hoard young, controllable talent and very few teams give young players for expensive older players. The list is an exercise is gauging how teams view players….i imagine Dave talks to WAY more people within baseball than you do. So, yeah, keep complaining about one dude Dave was wrong about last year. dave’s the worst!
2016 Anagram Value: #50 to #41
#50: Czar Rats Lo Mein
#49: Joy ‘N Rag
#48: Grounder Doo
#47: Blake Jam
#46: Relax Eyes
#45: Injure To Heal
#44: Rise Vapor Daze
#43: Don Jeers Cop
#42: Rev. Rosy Trot
#41: U.S. Italic Logo
Czar Rats Lo Mein is pretty special. Challenging my personal all time favorite which is one for Carlos Carrasco, but I won’t say it here in hopes that he and it show up in one of the upcoming installments.
Better than Noah Syndergaard?
I hope the 1 down vote just hit the wrong button. Otherwise, at least one FanGraphs reader is a soulless monster. Keep up the excellent work.
Rev Rosy Trot gets a solid present value 80 grade from me.
You haven’t used the L in Salvador, my friend.
There is no “L” in the Royal’s wonderful catcher lol.
Seriously, thanks for the catch. Too late to edit, but I’ll propose this replacement:
#44: Laser Vaporized
#FreeJonGray
Sanchez (23, 4yrs control)
Stroman (25, 4yrs control)
Martinez (24, 3yrs control)
Teheran (25, $9.3m x4yrs)
Gray (24, 5yrs control)
Career (as SP only)
Sanchez 29g, 6.4ip/g, 75era-, 97fip-, 93xfip-, 2.8fwar/32g, 5.4r9war/32g, 4.1avg
Stroman 42g, 6.3ip/g, 92era-, 82fip-, 85xfip-, 4.0fwar/32g, 3.8r9war/32g, 3.9avg
Martinez 54g, 5.9ip/g, 83era-, 87fip-, 89xfip-, 3.4fwar/32g, 4.2r9war/32g, 3.8avg
Teheran 118g, 6.3ip/gs, 88era-, 104fip-, 103xfip-, 2.3fwar/32g, 3.4r9war/32g, 2.9avg
Gray 24g, 5.4ip/g, 103era-, 89fip-, 90xfip-, 3.1fwar/32g, 1.9r9war/32g, 2.5avg
This Season
Sanchez 18g, 6.6ip/g, 68era-, 81fip-, 80xfip-, 4.5fwar/32g, 6.4r9war/32g, 5.4avg
Stroman 18g, 6.5ip/g, 112era-, 89fip-, 87xfip-, 3.2fwar/32g, 1.8r9war/32g, 2.5avg
Martinez 17g, 6.3ip/g, 70era-, 85fip-, 93xfip-, 3.6fwar/32g, 6.2r9war/32g, 4.9avg
Teheran 18g, 6.6ip/g, 72era-, 97fip-, 99xfip-, 3.0fwar/32g, 5.7r9war/32g, 4.4avg
Gray 15g, 5.9ip/g, 96era-, 90fip-, 86xfip-, 3.2fwar/32g, 2.6r9war/32g, 2.9avg
and neither Sanchez’ nor Stroman’s stuff takes a backseat to any of them.
Sanchez over Gray for sure. Don’t forget he was also a lights out RP. We e seen the returns for Kimbrel and Miller.
One name from the honorable mentions that seems low, is Wil Myers. I would rather have Myers than any of these guys. Is Myers’ injury history really going to be that much of a negative to hold him back?
His five year outlook includes 3 seasons of arbitration and then free agency, which is not nearly as attractive as the pre-arb guys on this end of the list who have similarly good track records or the couple guys with very team-friendly deals.
Also, on May 31st, Myers was sporting a .309 wOBA and 94 wRC+ over his first 215 PAs before exploding for .448 and 188 over the next 164 PAs. Given his struggles (or at best averageness) in 2014 and 2015 along with his injury history, I think it’s still fair to question how good he really is.
Myers also has less years of team control left of anyone here aside from Carlos Martinez.
Compare him to Jake Lamb. Lamb has one more year of team control (and it’s a cheap prearb year) and has greater defensive value with a similar bat.
But someone like Odor over Myers? I just don’t see that. Myers has more upside than Odor, and I feel like his struggles have been a little overrated. He was perfectly fine with the bat last year until he got hurt, and he was really good in 2013. So you have a really good half year, then an injury-filled poor year, a year where he was good, but got hurt, and now a year where he’s healthy and having a very good year. I can see Lamb, or Story due to his position and years of control, but Odor and Pedersen, I would be a little surprised if they were valued more than Wil Myers right now.
Odor and Pederson are younger, have more years of control, play premium defensive positions, and don’t have Myers’ injury history. This list is a bet on the future, not on past performance.
The people that are high on Myers are indeed betting on future performance. They were doing it before this year started. In this case, Pederson has some significant holes in his game/swing that might be hard to fix and Odor simply might not be that great. It seems like these trade value pieces ignore current and short-term future production and talent about as much as humanly possible.
Its not rocket science. Myers plays the least valuable defensive position and is hitting arbitration a year earlier than guys like Odor and Pederson. He is due a significant raise next year and the other two arent.
If you dont see why that would make Myers’ value slightly lower (and it is only slightly) on the trade market then I dont know why you are even here.
On the other hand, if they don’t see why that would be, then here is exactly where they should be, preferably with keyboard mouths closed until they’ve caught up a little.
Myers is a free agent 1 year before Odor. Myers has been worth 3.5 WAR this year. Odor’s been worth 4.3 in his entire career. I just don’t think “years of control” is as important in trade value as impact. Odor’s like a slightly above average player, and one who’s running a 2% walk rate at the moment. At 2b, Odor’s 15th in fWAR so far this year, and by wRC+, he’s 17th (and teams value offense more than defense). So half the teams in MLB, he’s not even an upgrade right now. Myers is #1 in fWAR at 1b.
Myers is also 25 years old (to Odor’s 22) and in 3 seasons has yet to eclipse 90 games in a season. yes he is having a good year this year but in the previous 2 seasons he was basically replacement level. Those are not insignificant facts.
You guys are acting like Odor was ranked in the top 10 or something. The reality is that this list is saying there is very very little between Myers and Odor. Which seems entirely reasonable given all the circumstances.
I just disagree. Odor’s age, and years of control, I don’t think mean that much. Is he a guy who’s got a lot of upside to grow into more power? It’s fairly shocking that a guy of his size has 16 home runs so far this year, and even with that power that he has a wRC+ of 99. I just don’t see any team parting with a lot of talent for someone like Odor. It’s basically floor and ceiling, and teams don’t pay for floor, they pay for ceiling. Odor, not having the red flags with the wrist injuries, has the higher floor, but has nothing of the ceiling of Myers. You get a guy who’s cost controlled, and is a nice 2-3 WAR player. Or you get a guy who’s 1 year closer to free agency, but is a potential 5-6 WAR player, like a more athletic Freddie Freeman? The latter, past wrist injuries or no, I think would command a significantly higher return. Maybe there’s some upside to Odor that I’m unaware of? Someone with poor plate discipline like he has, and his size that limits his power potential, that’s a pretty hard ceiling
The thing is though that Myers was actually traded. So we know exactly what his trade value was.
He had the same high ceiling when the Padres traded for him a year and a half ago and they gave up not a whole lot (although its harder to separate because it was a 3 team deal). His value has likely gone up after the first half of this year but still dont see it being significantly higher.
Agree to disagree.
What are the chances of Myers returning to the outfield? Playing 1B might cause him to lose some value as well.
He’s been fantastic at 1B this year whereas he’s only an average in RF and poor in CF. So while his positional value goes down, his defensive value at 1B is more than making up for it this year.
Is fangraphs just going to continue to pretend that framing isn’t a thing? As long as framing matters (no robot umps) , Perez should be nowhere near top 100 of a trade list let alone top 50.
The market has never paid for framing. MLB teams themselves reject its value when it comes to trades and free agent signings.
There also seems to be growing perception that the value of framing will decline as bad framers have shown it can be improved through practice (unlike some skills which are just innate or can’t grow later) and as umpires start to get more scrutiny the opportunities for catchers to steal calls may decline.
Myers, Ozuna, Belt, and Sanchez is more valuable than more than 1/2 of this list
This is trade value, not overall value. Myers and Ozuna are eligible for arbitration next year (i.e. no super cheap years left) and have questions about their consistency and/or injury history. Belt is owed 73MM through his 33rd birthday and also has consistency and injury issues. I do agree that Sanchez could have made the list over Gray or CMart, but it’s kind of a tossup and I could see him being somewhere in the 50’s, which his inclusion in the honorable mention seems to imply.
As mentioned at length in the introduction, there’s a ton of bunching between the guys towards the bottom of the top 50 and everyone else in the theoretical 51-100 group that have easy arguments for being officially on the list. It doesn’t mean that Alex Reyes is “better” than Aaron Sanchez.
Texas trades Odor for Kershaw all day, everyday and doesn’t look back. And yes I know about the clause in Kershaw’s contract.
The problem with the kershaw contract is the fact that it automatically eliminates 1/2 of the teams for them to be able to afford him. And so while yes to the rich teams kershaw is kershaw to the other teams he is affordable therefore 0 value
Zero value lol ffs. I guess people don’t figure out that Dave is overrating the hell out of these young players, even in the face of evidence such as Joc Pederson falling 31 spots on the list in the span of a year.
Joc Pederson 2015 through June (when DC probably made his list): .244/.384/.527 with 20 HRs in 78 games
Joc Pederson June 2015 to end of season: .170/.300/.284 with 6 HRs in 73 games
Joc Pederson 2016 so far: .236/.328/.476 with 13 HRs in 75 games
I’m pretty sure Pederson’s drop is less evidence of DC “overrating the hell out of these young players” and more about Pederson doing his best rookie Mark McGwire impression as of the formation of last year’s rankings and then falling off the table for the rest of 2015 with only a partial rebound so far in 2016.
Also, young players are the cheapest, so they naturally don’t need as much proven production to keep up with elite veterans.
When you’re striking out nearly 30% of the time, which is what was happening when Joc was raking last year, it’s a pretty big red flag, and it’s been exploited by pitchers since then. He was Trevor Story before it was cool to be Trevor Story, and people are cautiously optimistic at best about Story’s outlook for similar reasons. And yes, young hitters can and usually do reduce the amount of swing and miss in their game as they progress, but it can still limit a player’s true potential and therefore must hamper their trade value.
You’re right that Pederson wasn’t perfect, but there is an expectation of adjustments and game evolution. It’s okay to have weaknesses when one is young.
Also, a BIG warning about “it’s been exploited by pitchers since then”: not all huge production drops by hitters are due to pitchers “figuring them out”. Sometimes the player loses his feel at the plate, or his swing goes wrong, etc.
For example, look at Xander Bogaerts in 2014. He was solid (and improved to “good”) for the first two months of the year, and then literally overnight his hitting collapsed. After three months of looking nothing like the same hitter, Bogaerts finally capped the issue, tweaked his approach, and then rebound quite quickly in September.
Lazy people claimed that pitchers had “figured out” Bogaerts. In that case, it was nonsense. If you simply watched Bogaerts a week before the mega-slump and then a week into the slump, you would have seen two different hitters. He was swinging at garbage, because something was going on mentally. I’m NOT declaring that that IS the case with Pederson, but just warning you to not just assume the struggles are from a change on the pitching end.
I don’t necessarily agree with BBR’s overall point (and certainly not his tude) but 30 out of 30 teams can make room in their budget for one year of Clayton Kershaw.
Yeah, this, I didn’t really get that
How much in long term assets do you give up for one year of the best player in baseball? Most assuredly not nearly enough to get the Dodgers to give up several years of same. So, we’ll never know.
Willson Contreras has a wRC+ of 160 over the last season and a half, but that’s none of my business.
I’m a huge Contreras fan, I’ve been trumpeting him as the Cubs top prospect since this last offseason and hoping for his call to the bigs as soon as Montero showed he was struggling. You have to note a few things however:
1. He’s older than 4 of the guys ranked here, and roughly the same age as Joc, C-Mart, and Jon Gray.
2. We’ve had all of 93 MLB PA to look at from him. He’s killed AA and AAA over the last year and a half, but so has Byron Buxton, and look what he’s done in the MLB. Contreras is also a couple years behind the “elite prospect” path to the majors.
3. We don’t know for sure yet that he can stick at catcher. I have every hope that he can, early returns are good, but if he’s relegated to LF he’s not nearly as valuable.
4. His early returns at the plate at the MLB level are actually kind of scary. The 153 wRC+ is awesome, obviously, but it’s coming on the tails of a .385 BABIP (from a catcher no less) and a 31.3% HR/FB%. Contreras is not a home run hitter. He’s a gap power/plate discipline guy. The home runs aren’t going to keep up at this pace, the BABIP will drop, and he hasn’t shown the plate discipline at the MLB level yet that made him so valuable in the minors.
From your comments, Pederson and Story look like similar profiles — high strikeout sluggers at key defensive positions. But with Story you get his age 24 season for league minimum as well. I’m surprised this doesn’t create more separation between the two.
Does Story’s limited track record drive down his value? Do you not believe his WAR projection.. or feel GMs don’t buy into that projection yet? Is there something else?
Coors affect makes everyone wary (perhaps not rightly) about hitters….if Storey strikes out this much while calling Coors home, how often will he K if he moves to a more neutral environment?
I’m curious to see if/where Kyle Schwarber falls on this list. The meatheads who call into sports radio in Chicago all want to trade him for one of the Yankee relievers, but to hear the hosts and guests talk about it, he’s nearly untouchable to the Cubs’ front office.
A guy with less than half a season in the MLB, missing this entire season with a torn ACL, who (unfairly in my opinion, but still) already had questions about his athleticism and who derived some of his value from being able to play catcher (which is now in question) isn’t going to be close to this list.
I disagree. If you consider the sort of players on the honorable mentions list or even near the bottom of this list, there are plenty with similar or lesser track record and lower levels of shown production. I don’t believe he qualified for super 2, so he ought to have two pre-arb seasons and 3 arb seasons after 2016. With injury and position questions he could not be a lock for the list, but I find it impossible that he would not be at least an honorable mention.
Of course, Dave Cameron does consistently seem to be the low man on Schwarber among other writers I’ve seen, so perhaps he’ll be omitted.
Given that Matt Carpenter was merely an honorable mention due pretty much entirely to an injury that may only cost him a month, I think Dave has shown how he feels about injuries.
I think he and Baez miss this list, but Hendricks, Russell, Rizzo, and Bryant should be on it, but who knows
I’d be surprised to see Hendricks on this list. I do think he is somewhat underappreciated and I think I see him as better than several of the pitchers on today’s list right now, but I can’t see him actually being ranked ahead of any of them. Despite his excellence there will always be doubt do to his lack of velocity, and rightfully so – he may be great now, but guys like him are always living on the edge of a knife.
I’d have Teheran off the list for pretty much the same reason – too unreliable a skillset.
That’s crazy. The meatheads in the Bronx won’t shut up about the same idea.
One of my favorite things about this every year is getting a pulse on how guys I’m not real familiar with are evaluated – Odor, for example, is a dude I’m vaguely aware of existing (I can pick him out of a lineup for sure, but that’s about it) and I mainly just think of him punching Bautista in the face. I had no idea he was projected/valued this highly.
That said – and having admitted my own ignorance – I’m really surprised at Teheran’s ranking. Just on this list alone, I can’t imagine, say, St. Louis giving up Martinez or Reyes for him, and I would have thought he was somewhere below the honorable mention guys too. It’ll be really interesting what he actually nets for Atlanta here in a couple weeks.
Martinez and Teheran have similar present ability, yet Teheran has more proven durability and one additional year of control.
Im sure Jose Bautista thinks of him exactly the same way.
I’m surprised that no one has yet questioned the inclusion of Alex Reyes. Dave covered some of the downside, but to me it’s significant enough to keep him off the list entirely. We’re talking about a guy who has never shown control or command at any level, is a fly-ball pitcher, and has twice tested positive for marijuana. The Syndergaard comp that Dave got from “industry friends” doesn’t make much sense, as what made Thor one of my favorite pitching prospects was his advanced control and command. Reyes’ ceiling is such that he could very well end up on the top half of this list at some point if he improves, but the odds are too great that he never comes close to that level.
Good points all. I think listing anyone with zero MLB service time is something of a dicey prospect (although certainly some prospects are more “can’t miss” than others). Especially pitchers, ESPECIALLY one with some identifiable weaknesses that would lead to a wider range of possible outcomes. We all (and industry insiders, too) fall prey to “falling in love with bringing the heat” even if a guy is walking 3, 4, or 5 batters per nine; some guys never bring that under control (quite literally!).
I would imagine the bust rate for even highly touted pitching prospects is, I dunno, 20%? 30%? 40%? So you would have to weight some level of 0.0-1.0 WAR seasons over the next five years if he just doesn’t pan out at all, to go along with the 2, 3, and 4-WAR seasons that he could also enjoy if he continues to progress. I would think a weighted average of outcomes including these flame-out scenarios would pull him down below the 2.5-3.0 WAR seasons that he’s projected for over the next five years.
“I would imagine”…”I would think”…”We all”…weasel words and arguments ad populum. Why not just find out?
Um…thanks? Very helpful.
weird thing is Dave has always been highly critical of prospects with great sfuff/heat but poor command.
You incorrectly calculated “Guaranteed Dollars” for Teheran. The buyout for his option is only $1M, so his guaranteed money is actually $26.3M. That represents a much lower downside risk than $37M.
I assume you give guys in arbitration a bonus in trade value due to the fact a team can limit their total downside risk by non-tendering that player. A team option is exactly the same thing, and should add trade value since it also limits the total downside risk.
I realize your prospect guru only values Julio as a worthy of a 45 FV guy from the Red Sox, but a ~3.5 WAR a year guy with his contract is a little more valuable than that. Perhaps Mr. Longerwhatever didn’t use the team option that limits the total risk in his calculus?
Even using your incorrect dollar values, you project Julio to produce 13.9 WAR at the cost of $37.3M ($2.7M per WAR), and Perez to produce 14.4 WAR for $46.5M ($3.2M per WAR). How in the world does that make Perez more valuable? Especially when you take into account the fact Julio’s total downside is limited by his option year? Did Teheran slap your grandmother or something?
Jackie Bradley Jr, over the past calendar year, has hit .285/.368/.545 (139 wRC+) and accumulated 5.9 WAR (143 games), in spite of UZR having strangely low ratings on his defense, especially compared to DRS/fan scouting. He also has 4 years of team control remaining.
I notice he wasn’t mentioned in the honorable mentions, and it seems very unlikely that he’s going to rank in the top 40. Is he someone that came into consideration with some of these other guys?
Why do you think it’s unlikely he’ll be in the top 40? I think he’s all but guaranteed to be on there – no way a guy who has blossomed into a stud young player is going to not even make the honorable mentions.
You’re right that he belongs in the honourable mentions in the same group as myers et al.
but given dave’s history i’m guessing we’re about to see him ranked much higher than that.
There’s good reason to believe he’ll crack the top 40.
He’s super 2 eligible, so he’s still got four years of arbitration control starting next year and while he’s not the player he was in April long term, his peripherals suggest a better than average hitter with elite defense at a prime defensive position. He’s improved his K rate while not sacrificing his walk rate and while his babip will regress, his batter ball profile has improved in a projectable way.
Realistically, he’s probably a streaky hitter with great defense who’s capable of putting up an OPS north of .800, which is extremely valuable in CF.