2021 Trade Value: #21 to #30

Design by Luke Hooper

As is the annual tradition at FanGraphs, we’re using the week after the All-Star Game to take stock of the top 50 players in baseball by trade value in anticipation of next week’s trade deadline. For a more detailed introduction to this year’s exercise, as well as a look at those players who fell just short of the top 50, be sure to read the Introduction and Honorable Mentions piece, which can be found in the widget above.

For those who have been reading the Trade Value Series the last few seasons, the format should look familiar. For every player, you’ll see a table with the player’s projected five-year WAR from 2022-2026, courtesy of Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS projections. The table will also include the player’s guaranteed money, if any, the year through which their team has contractual control of them, last year’s rank (if applicable), and then projections, contract status, and age for each individual season through 2026, if the player is under contract or team control for those seasons. Last year’s rank includes a link to the relevant 2020 post. One note on the rankings: particularly at the bottom of the list, there’s not a lot of room between players. The ordinal rankings clearly matter, and we put players where they are for a reason, but there’s not much room between, say, 35 and 60. The magnitude of the differences in this part of the list is quite small. Several talent evaluators we talked to might prefer a player in the Honorable Mentions section to one on the back end of the list, or vice versa. We think the broad strokes are correct — but with so many players carrying roughly equivalent value, disagreements abounded. Thanks are due to Sean Dolinar for his help in creating the tables in these posts. At the bottom of the page, there is a grid showing all the players who have been ranked up to this point.

And now, to the next group of players.

Five-Year WAR +13.1
Guaranteed Dollars $43.0 M
Team Control Through 2027
Previous Rank #14
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 24 +2.8 $6.0 M
2023 25 +2.6 $9.5 M
2024 26 +2.7 $12.5 M
2025 27 +2.6 $15.0 M
2026 28 +2.4 $20.0 M
Team Option

This high for a guy who’s struck out 30% of the time in his limited major league playing time? Well, yeah. Robert is one of the few players we didn’t move at all as we iterated our list. Everyone seemed pretty much fine with him around here, though he might have been in a very different spot if he hadn’t gotten hurt and had kept playing like he was early this season before tearing his hip flexor while running the bases. He’s one of the best outfield defenders in baseball, full stop, and at just 24 you can expect that to keep going. He’s also been an above-average hitter, even with a borderline-disastrous approach at the plate, because he just hits it that hard when he connects.

I thought a lot about Robert’s value in relation to Trent Grisham’s while compiling this list. I initially had Grisham higher, but I understand why Robert could fetch more in trade. Grisham’s been better so far, and I like his approach much more, but their production hasn’t been that different, and the way Robert does it — all smashed home runs and blinding athleticism — makes his current production feel like more of a floor than a ceiling. He’s also under team control until 2027, thanks to two club options on his affordable deal. I’m not sure there’s much of a bias against under-the-radar performers anymore; if these two players were around 10 years ago, Grisham might have finished out of the top 50 while nerds wailed and rent their garments. But the 30-35 area feels about right for both of them, and I’m comfortable having Robert higher, even if reasonable people could disagree on the exact ordering. – BC

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Five-Year WAR +15.2
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 25 +3.3 Arb3
2023 26 +3.3 Arb4
Arb

I can’t speak for Kevin, but Urías is the player I listened the most to others on. I didn’t really have him near here when we started this exercise. Even though he debuted at 19, he’s already had an extensive major league career, with two years of arbitration left before hitting the open market. This is the first year he’s thrown more than 100 innings, though he seemingly would have if last year had been a full season. And because of the way the Dodgers have used him, I still think of him as a swingman rather than a front-line starter.

But, uh, that’s not the reality on the ground. Urías has two plus secondaries, a fastball he locates well, and an uncanny ability to generate bad swings — batters swing more often than average at his pitches outside of the zone and less often than average at the ones in it. He’s always had good command, and it looks to have improved further since he became a full-time starter. There’s probably not much room between him and Aaron Nola performance-wise, and Urías will be far cheaper for the next two years. That’s not to say everyone agrees; one NL evaluator had this to say: “The stuff was fine. I don’t know if there’s any more upside there.” Not exactly a glowing recommendation! But for the most part, people in baseball buy him as a front-of-the-rotation starter at a good rate. – BC

Five-Year WAR +19.8
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank #33
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 27 +4.4 Arb2
2023 28 +4.3 Arb3
Arb

Giolito has garnered a handful of down-ballot Cy Young votes over the past two years and while he’s slipped a bit in 2021, his raw numbers suggest that a second-half surge is hardly out the question (and might earn him a few more come November). Still just 26 and now seen as durable after injuries plagued the early part of his career, Giolito falls short of the true ace designation when polling those in the industry, but he’s just a tick below it and being consistently good is one of the more underrated aspects when evaluating pitchers. “The fact that Giolito [was so bad] in 2018 and was able to completely reinvent himself at the major league level speaks to how dependable a piece he could be for anyone’s rotation,” one AL executive told me. Editor’s Note: This quote originally contained an offensive reference. We sincerely regret its inclusion and any discomfort that inclusion caused our readers.

Giolito is far from perfect but he knows how to hide his weaknesses. Every secondary pitch in his arsenal plays better than his fastball, but he knows that and goes to his heater less than 50% of the time, an approach that is becoming more normal across the game. His fastball has solid velocity and movement, but Giolito fills the zone more than he commands the pitch, delivering far too many center-cut versions of it, which has led to more fly balls and leaves him a bit prone to home runs. Still, this is some necessary nitpicking of a very good rotation piece with two manageable years of arbitration remaining. – KG

Five-Year WAR +18.1
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank #19
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 26 +4.0 Arb2
2023 27 +3.9 Arb3
Arb

Was it a crutch to have the two Harvard Westlake guys next to each other? No — in fact, we swapped Giolito and Flaherty back and forth quite a bit, because there’s not much daylight between them as ace-upside pitchers about to take a second bite of the arbitration apple. Ask me on a different day, and I might flip the order. Like Giolito, Flaherty has the raw stuff to put together insane runs, like when he turned into Bob Gibson in the second half of the 2019 season. Even when he’s not fully on, he misses enough bats to compete, though several people we checked the list with dinged him for running up high pitch counts that keep him from going as deep into games as you’d expect for someone of his overall performance level.

There’s not much concern about Flaherty’s health, either; he’s missed a good chunk of the year with an oblique injury, but he’d been durable before that and is throwing bullpens already in anticipation of an imminent return. Think of this as a provisional ranking, though: it assumes he looks roughly the same upon coming back. Given that he’s not being traded before the deadline anyway — let’s face it, likely no one on this list is — I’m comfortable adopting a wait-and-see approach given how much teams will give in trade for healthy and controllable near-ace pitchers. – BC

Five-Year WAR +22.4
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2023
Previous Rank #17
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 29 +5.6 $11.0 M
2023 30 +5.3 $13.0 M
Team Option

José Ramírez signed an exceptionally team-friendly contract in March of 2017 and immediately went from being a good player to an MVP candidate, turning his extension into one of the biggest bargains in baseball. Following the 2021 season, he’s owed a criminally low $24 million (assuming his club options get picked up) for two more seasons of what should be star-level production. He’s not the .300 hitter he once was, mostly due to his pull tendencies as his raw power went from above-average to plus-plus, but few players in the game can match his combination of contact ability and exit velocity.

There are concerns over how Ramírez’s production will age as he gets slower, but he still runs well now and is a more than serviceable defender at the hot corner. Our industry contacts agree that he’ll remain a five-plus win player in each of the remaining seasons of his deal. As one executive quipped, “There’s a question to how long the body holds up, but if you’re acquiring Ramírez, you’re likely only interested through age-30 anyway.” – KG

Five-Year WAR +8.0
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2025
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 28 +1.8 Arb1
2023 29 +1.7 Arb2
2024 30 +1.6 Arb3
2025 31 +1.5 Arb4
Arb

By this point, one thing should be clear from today’s list: teams value controllable front-line pitching a lot. My take on it is that they mostly can’t get these players without signing 29-year-olds to long-term deals, making it an issue of scarcity: bats can be had, but good pitching just doesn’t change hands very often. That doesn’t apply at the very top end, because superstars are scarce at every position, but there are a lot of teams that think they can develop hitters, while good pitching remains elusive.

Anyway, Framber Valdez! He’s awesome, and that’s less up for debate than you might think. Before 2020, he hadn’t performed in the majors, largely due to scary walk rates. He mastered that in 2020, and after a fluke broken finger, he’s shown enough command since returning that I’m no longer worried about free passes as a potential Achilles’ heel. He gets grounders! He misses bats! There aren’t a lot of guys whose production resembles his, and they’re mostly good pitchers. It’s reasonable to wonder if he’ll ever put together a season as good as some of the names below him on the list, but he’s a good bet to out-produce them over four years (he’ll be eligible for arbitration as a Super 2 player after this year), and there’s upside for more given his curveball, which is one of the best in baseball — think peak Adam Wainwright if everything breaks right. – BC

Five-Year WAR +16.4
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2027
Previous Rank #41
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 24 +2.9 Pre-Arb
2023 25 +3.3 Pre-Arb
2024 26 +3.4 Pre-Arb
2025 27 +3.4 Arb1
2026 28 +3.3 Arb2
Pre-Arb
Arb

As noted in the Honorable Mentions, it’s tough to put a prospect on this list unless they are absolutely special. Adley Rutschman is absolutely special. One scout who saw him recently graded him out as a slightly above-average hitter with plus power and impact-level defense. In possession of a big-league approach at the plate, it’s easy to argue that Rutschman is ready for the majors right now, though Baltimore will likely control his service time in a way that benefits the organization at Rutschman’s expense. That’s the unfortunate dichotomy in most team’s current approach to service time, one that will likely be a key point of contention in the upcoming CBA talks.

Rutschman’s makeup and game management are just as impressive as his talent on the field. “[His] leadership from behind the plate is unlike anything I’ve ever seen,” said one scout who has gotten multiple looks at 2019’s first overall pick this year. “He was meeting veteran arms at the foul line in spring training after the inning to pat them on the ass and talk it through,” the scout added. “I think he’s going to mean as much as [Jason] Varitek or [Buster] Posey to an organization.” The Orioles are in desperate need of an impact player to point their organization in the right direction and Rutschman looks like just that. – KG

Five-Year WAR +20.4
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2025
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 25 +4.4 Pre-Arb
2023 26 +4.2 Arb1
2024 27 +4.2 Arb2
2025 28 +4.0 Arb3
Pre-Arb
Arb

Kyle Tucker is 24 years old, doesn’t hit arbitration until 2023, and is in the midst of a season where he has demonstrated considerable improvement — it just hasn’t shown up in his stat line. He was a victim of astoundingly bad luck early in the year, with his underlying metrics suggesting an OPS in the neighborhood of .900; his .322/.358/.530 line since June 1 is a much more accurate depiction of his 2021.

Tucker hasn’t made any mechanical adjustments to his somewhat funky, old-school style swing — it would fit right in on the grainy, black-and-white film clips of the game from the 1940s and ’50s — but he’s made a clear change in his approach. His ability to avoid swinging at balls out of the zone is the same as ever, but he’s become far more aggressive within the zone, which when combined with one of the better hard hit rates in baseball and continually-improving power, has led to the breakout we’re starting to see. He has four more years of control in Houston and it’s easy to anticipate him making multiple All-Star appearances. – KG

Five-Year WAR +18.3
Guaranteed Dollars $8.4 M
Team Control Through 2024
Previous Rank #12
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 28 +4.2 $8.4 M
2023 29 +4.0 $11.0 M
2024 30 +3.8 $13.0 M
Team Option

In 2019, Ketel Marte was one of the best players in baseball, putting up a 7.0 WAR season and finishing fourth in National League MVP voting. It felt like a somewhat out-of-nowhere year for a player who entered the season with a career OPS just north of .700. And while a sub-par 2020, during which his approach at the plate collapsed, left some wondering who the real Marte is, his 2021 showing (at least when healthy) has teams believing he is a star-level player signed to a bargain contract through 2024.

Marte’s skillset has changed considerably since his early days in the big leagues. He’s bigger and stronger, with max exit velocities that suggest plus-plus raw power despite his lower home run total so far this year. He’s also greatly reduced his chase rate; swinging at better pitches has been a key to his breakthrough. Unfortunately, with the strength has come a reduction in his athleticism. The majority of the industry contacts we spoke to indicated that they would return him to the dirt upon acquisition. “I think he’s miscast in center field,” said one senior evaluator. “I think the position puts a strain on his body and he’s just an infielder by trait.” – KG

Five-Year WAR +14.9
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2025
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2022 28 +3.5 Pre-Arb
2023 29 +3.4 Arb1
2024 30 +3.1 Arb2
2025 31 +2.7 Arb3
Pre-Arb
Arb

Did you know that teams don’t like to pay market value for their production? It’s much more desirable in their eyes to barter players rather than spend money. A shocking revelation, I’m sure, but it’s worth mentioning as a capstone on this group of 10, which has been peppered with team-friendly contracts for good, but not necessarily great, players. Cronenworth fits this mold quite well — he’s an above average hitter who won’t hit arbitration until 2023, and that’s all teams need to hear to take out the trade checkbook.

But don’t let that cynical (and sadly accurate) view of the baseball world get you down on what Cronenworth brings to the table. He’s a solid defensive second baseman with plus speed, though more of the “great baserunning” variety than someone who will swipe 20 bags. He has some of the best bat control in the majors; his contact rates are off the charts, and he also barrels up plenty of contact despite middling raw power. He combines that with a good grasp of the strike zone, and a solid understanding of how he’ll be pitched. Pitchers know how to attack Nick Madrigal types; they pin their ears back and attack the zone. Do that against Cronenworth and you might be watching him stroll around the bases — probably on something he pulled to max out his power. He’ll probably never hit 30 bombs in a season, but I’d take the over on 20, and that type of pop out of a good defender who walks and doesn’t strike out is a whale of a player, even without considering his contract. – BC

2021 Trade Value, 21-50
Rk Pv Player Age 2022 2023 2024 2025 2026
21 Jake Cronenworth 27 +3.5
Pre-Arb
+3.4
Arb1
+3.1
Arb2
+2.7
Arb3
22 12 Ketel Marte 27 +4.2
$8.4 M
+4.0
$11.0 M
+3.8
$13.0 M
23 Kyle Tucker 24 +4.4
Pre-Arb
+4.2
Arb1
+4.2
Arb2
+4.0
Arb3
24 41 Adley Rutschman 23 +2.9
Pre-Arb
+3.3
Pre-Arb
+3.4
Pre-Arb
+3.4
Arb1
+3.3
Arb2
25 Framber Valdez 27 +1.8
Arb1
+1.7
Arb2
+1.6
Arb3
+1.5
Arb4
26 17 José Ramírez 28 +5.6
$11.0 M
+5.3
$13.0 M
27 19 Jack Flaherty 25 +4.0
Arb2
+3.9
Arb3
28 33 Lucas Giolito 26 +4.4
Arb2
+4.3
Arb3
29 Julio Urías 24 +3.3
Arb3
+3.3
Arb4
30 14 Luis Robert 23 +2.8
$6.0 M
+2.6
$9.5 M
+2.7
$12.5 M
+2.6
$15.0 M
+2.4
$20.0 M
31 31 Matt Olson 27 +5.3
Arb2
+5.1
Arb3
32 Randy Arozarena 26 +2.3
Pre-Arb
+2.2
Arb1
+2.3
Arb2
+1.9
Arb3
+1.5
Arb4
33 HM Will Smith 26 +3.4
Pre-Arb
+3.3
Arb1
+3.3
Arb2
+3.1
Arb3
34 HM Trent Grisham 24 +4.0
Pre-Arb
+4.1
Arb1
+4.0
Arb3
+3.7
Arb3
35 HM Alex Verdugo 25 +2.8
Arb1
+2.7
Arb2
+2.6
Arb3
36 25 Aaron Nola 28 +4.1
$15.5 M
+3.7
$16.0 M
37 16 Rafael Devers 24 +4.1
Arb2
+4.1
Arb3
38 Sean Murphy 26 +2.5
Pre-Arb
+2.4
Arb1
+2.3
Arb2
+2.0
Arb3
39 Ian Anderson 23 +3.2
Pre-Arb
+3.3
Pre-Arb
+3.0
Arb1
+3.0
Arb2
+2.9
Arb3
40 36 Ramón Laureano 26 +3.2
Arb1
+2.9
Arb2
+2.9
Arb3
41 Trevor Rogers 23 +4.1
Pre-Arb
+4.2
Pre-Arb
+3.8
Arb1
+3.7
Arb2
+3.7
Arb3
42 HM Dylan Carlson 22 +2.6
Pre-Arb
+2.7
Pre-Arb
+2.8
Arb1
+2.6
Arb2
+2.6
Arb3
43 Freddy Peralta 25 +3.6
$2.5 M
+3.4
$3.7 M
+3.1
$5.7 M
+2.9
$8.0 M
+2.8
$8.0 M
44 Nick Madrigal 24 +2.4
Pre-Arb
+2.5
Pre-Arb
+2.3
Arb1
+2.1
Arb2
+2.0
Arb3
45 39 Max Kepler 28 +3.3
$6.8 M
+2.9
$8.5 M
+2.6
$10.0 M
46 49 Xander Bogaerts 28 +4.5
$20.0 M
+4.2
$20.0 M
+3.7
$20.0 M
+3.1
$20.0 M
+2.5
$20.0 M
47 Tim Anderson 28 +2.8
$9.5 M
+2.7
$12.5 M
+2.4
$14.0 M
48 Luis Garcia 24 +2.9
Pre-Arb
+2.9
Pre-Arb
+2.6
Arb1
+2.5
Arb2
+2.3
Arb3
49 Pablo López 25 +2.6
Arb1
+2.6
Arb2
+2.4
Arb3
50 40 Jeff McNeil 29 +3.1
Arb1
+2.8
Arb2
+2.3
Arb3
Pre-Arb
Arb
Team Option
Vesting Option





192 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
3cardmontyMember since 2025
5 years ago

Giolito’s blurb includes the first rape euphemism I’ve encountered on this site. Hopefully the last! Pretty disappointing tbqh.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

man I would have totally missed that if you hadn’t flagged it. that’s a horrifying phrase.

lavarnway
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Not horrifying at all if you’re a homosexual male.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

If I read it in a different context I might agree with you. Not sure. But I am really struggling to read any sort of consent into that phrase in the context of that paragraph.

EDIT: Cave Dameron gives a complementary explanation below.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The larger point is who cares? If KG had softened the scouts quote to [The fact that the league mistreated Gioloto so badly and he ‘was able to completely reinvent himself at the major league level speaks to how dependable a piece he could be for anyone’s rotation,” one AL executive told me.”] how many lives or days would have been changed? Yes, a baseball exec used an anachronistic and vulgar and maybe even sexual politics loaded term to describe a performance but I guarantee that exec hasn’t taken gender studies courses and simply intended “Gioloto got his ass kicked and punched back”. I’d love to see KG try and correct that execs speech realtime and see how many more insights he gets from that baseball person after.

Vlad's Dad
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Have you ever encountered the term “paraphrasing”? It exists for a reason and this article is Exhibit A.

lavarnway
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Yeah people can be mad, and understandably so, but I doubt the person saying the quote meant anything hurtful by it. (Except of course hurting Giolito’s feelings by being brutally honest about his terrible performance haha). I think it’s simply a lack of education on that person’s part. No reason for people to rage online.

texag
5 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

People who don’t view themselves as sexist/racist/homophobic rarely mean anything hurtful by the things they say. It doesn’t give them a free pass to say them.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

The virtue signaling is *thick* on Fangraphs lol

lavarnway
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I know haha I was just tossing more fuel to the already massive dumpster fire of a comments section.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

Mmhmm. They’re the ones “virtue signaling”. Sure Jan.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Yeah a bunch of dudes rushing to protect sexual assault victims from being potentially triggered by scout speak isn’t virtue signaling, sure.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Who’s “rushing to protect” anyone? I think all anyone said is “hey, maybe leave out that quote, omitting it doesn’t leave out any key information.”

(Those damn woke socialists! Totally rending the fabric of America they are!)

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Only rightoids think woke = socialist.

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

This is literal violence. You’re using a woman’s name as a derogatory.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

I’m not sure that “literal” means what you think it means…

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

It’s a meme Jason. Get with the program, you dolt.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Your use of “man” is triggering to those of us who are non-binary, sadtrombone

kid
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Wow. That quote is… graphic.

AndrewMember since 2016
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Sorry you had to suffer such trauma on a Wednesday morning. I hope the asterisk softened the blow.

Ryan
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

good job Kevin Goldstein, you didn’t need to include that sentence to make your point, really shows what kind of person you are

D-WizMember since 2019
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Yeah, KG’s choices of quotes to include throughout this series have been… questionable. The analysis by the writers has been top notch as always, but the quotes he’s been relying on so heavily, even the less inflammatory ones, only detract from the analysis. Very strange and yeah, disappointing.

TerenceMember since 2016
5 years ago
Reply to  D-Wiz

Yesterday, on this here website, in the midst of a trade value series…People were questioning if KG actually knew what FO’s really thought, had actually talked to FO’s, and were wondering why he didn’t quote FO’s more as they discussed player value.

Here. On this website. Where he has run 10 articles this year talking about his last 8 years working in the front office for the Astros, and all the different types of conversations he would have with other FO’s.

Today, he quotes those people word for word and everyone loses their minds. This is what career baseball people sound like. You can trust that these guys have done their homework and know what they are talking about, or you can demand to hear directly from their sources, but you can’t have it both ways.

I bet that is not close to the most inflammatory quote he received during this process.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  Terence

Wokeness is a race to the bottom and will never be satisfied. It was a bummer to see KG apologize to these over-sensitive folks hellbent on creating a bland, grey world rife with dismal equity everywhere.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Yeah, that’s what they’re trying to create. Keep battling those “wokeness” demons, they’re everywhere!!

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Try? I don’t care about what they’re trying to create. This is the world big tech and corporate Dems and their supporters are creating hand in hand.

juliusMember since 2021
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Do you realize you are 100x more obnoxious than the supposed wokeness your railing against here, Cyrano?

gtagomoriMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Buy a membership

dukewinslowMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  Terence

even though the ugly girlfriend thing in moneyball is apparently apocryphal, it was a REAL THING MY HIGH SCHOOL COACH SAID about why a guy who tore up batting practice couldn’t hit in the game.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Lol, don’t ever talk to a baseball scout and maybe lighten up sometime.

oxbto
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

The woke police are everywhere.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  oxbto

Yes they are and they suck just as bad as the satanic panic rightoids of Reagans day.

Anthony Princeton
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

They are far more dangerous today than the religious puritans of the 80’s who didn’t actually get much accomplished. Also remember Tipper and Al Gore were also not on the religious right yet were involved in censorship.

It takes a lot of privilege to be so concerned about fairly innocuous words and phrases. Maybe come on down to the south side of Chicago for some perspective on real issues.

BillClinton
5 years ago

Yeah the folks who talk the most about privilege tend to have a lot of it in the form of wealth and access. It’s a joke.

David WiersMember since 2016
5 years ago

I live on the Southside. I play soccer in McKinley Park. Yes, there are many issues here and everywhere else. Don’t use what you perceive as an area with “real” problems in weak attempt to make a point.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  David Wiers

I’m sure you live in Bridgeport, Pilsen or Hyde Park lol

David WiersMember since 2016
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Do…do you know how far away (practically speaking) Hyde Park is from McKinley? Just to play soccer? I live four blocks from 35th & Archer , so it is thoroughly McKinley.

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  David Wiers

David, you live in one of the 3 pockets of the southside that white people move to. Very brave.

David WiersMember since 2016
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

The funny thing about this is I’m not white.

Nor is my fiancee.

But hey, great swing and miss.

Update: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinley_Park,_Chicago

lol, this neighborhood is 17.07% white according to the 2018 census, sooooo yeah.

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  David Wiers

Latinx?

juliusMember since 2021
5 years ago
Reply to  David Wiers

They only talk in code they’ve been taught from the angry men on TV and radio. Unfortunately for Chicago, its now redefined as “excuse for xenophobia”. Please update your dictionary.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  oxbto

Luckily this is the only place that baseball fans are woke

Ericksonb32
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Cool, then why come here and comment?

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  Ericksonb32

Because stats can’t be woke unless we decide baseball math is racist, too.

LoafyTrophy
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Go away you clown

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  LoafyTrophy

No!

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  oxbto

When you see anyone using the phrase “woke police” non-ironically, you can feel free to skip over the rest of the comment. You shan’t miss a thing.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Lol, only a woke pedantic enough to shan’t themselves.

Anthony Princeton
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Nah, those are the people you probably want to listen to. Your comment is a little shocking and exhibits a high level of ignorance particularly in 2021.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago

Yeah, those are the people I want to listen to. They seem like such bastions of reason!

Twitchy
5 years ago
Reply to  oxbto

It’s interesting how the people who call others woke, are often the ones defending themselves the most when they make racist comments.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  Twitchy

who made a racist comment anywhere in this thread? are you a bot?

DLHughey
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Disgusting, not sure how that made it through editing. Or how it was even considered a usable quote in the first place. Or why anyone would say that on or off the record. Lots of mental lapses and poor judgment on this one.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  DLHughey

‘editing” what do you think this is the 1980’s Washington Post?

TomahawkChopperMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

How is that a rape euphemism? You do know that anal sex is possible without rape?

BillClinton
5 years ago

They’re not trying to be factual, just outraged, Tomahawk. Original poster is a woke who lives on Reddit so has brainrot.

lavarnway
5 years ago

It’s hard for people who never have sex to have sex knowledge.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

Hard to have sex when you’re terminally online in your parents basement with no economic prospects, please don’t be late-millennial-zoomerist, lavarnway. You’ll trigger them.

lavarnway
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Hey Bill Clinton is definitely someone who is an authority on sex!

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

Consensual and otherwise, yep.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

“Parents basement?” That trope is so old it’s collecting Social Security.

a different brad
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Please cover your ass, none of us want to see it.

Shirtless George Brett
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

Hard to have sex when you’re terminally online in your parents basement with no economic prospects

Said the guy who spent all morning typing comments (seriously, like half the comments here are you) on a nerdy baseball site. I bet the women are beating down your door! lmao.

Even as trolls go, you are lame. Get some new material.

CC AFCMember since 2016
5 years ago

Of course, but the implication is negative, i.e. that Giolito did not want or like having that happen and that’s why it was used as the metaphor. Kinda like how there’s nothing wrong with being gay but it’s not cool to use “gay” as a perjorative.

Let’s just all chill on the “woke!” accusations and acknowledge that there are plenty of ways to talk about a baseball player performing poorly that are not harmful to sexual assault survivors

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

If I was Goldstein and read this chain of comments I’d just retire from baseball writing because the domain has been invaded by insufferable twerps who better fit in an HR department than at a baseball game. Y’all need to get a life and realize that demanding word-usage-parity is sad and pathetic. Words are not violence and—if you think they are—go outside once in a while.

texag
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

I highly doubt you would given all the comments you’ve made in this thread. But please, retire from commenting any time you’d like.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

I’m sure Texas doesn’t want you

LoafyTrophy
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

The irony of the dude with 50+ (mostly insulting) comments in this thread telling others to “get a life” is so thick you could cut it with a knife

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  LoafyTrophy

Get a life

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

lol “harmful”

casey jMember since 2026
5 years ago
Reply to  BillClinton

agreed. I laughed also. Some of us were sexually assaulted, and forgot it even happened. Life is full of shitty events. Bring back vulgarity, I say. Get these people out of our heads. Get a life, indeed. Run out and have some terrible shit happen. Gain some perspective.

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  casey j

How many have been harmed by these comments?!

Cave Dameron
5 years ago

That would imply that Giolito purposely let himself be a terrible pitcher in 2018.

dozingoffdadMember since 2021
5 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

Seems unlikely, but you can’t argue with the results.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  Cave Dameron

pulling a Wil Meyers

Kevin GoldsteinMember
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Hi everyone. Meg and I woke up to these comments, and both feel awful about the inclusion of that reference. To be embarrassingly honest, we did not make the connection to its definition until our readers did, and sincerely apologize for its initial inclusion.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago

Thanks KG and Meg. It isn’t immediately obvious so I understand how it got overlooked, and I appreciate the quick response.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago

Appreciate the edit and note – nobody’s perfect and you guys consistently churn out top-notch work.

lavarnway
5 years ago

No worries KG, it’s the small vocal minority who were offended. Most of your readers either didn’t get the reference or understood that in the context the quote was only intended as a jab at one person: Lucas Giolito. If people get that worked up about words they read online I feel really bad for all of you people who write for a living.

Mitchell MooreMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  lavarnway

Rather does it look like you and BillClinton are the “vocal minority” here.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  Mitchell Moore

Somebody has to point out the virtue signaling on the internet, Mitchell!

lavarnway
5 years ago
Reply to  Mitchell Moore

Never thought I’d be sharing a sentence with the great Bill Clinton. Back when liberals were cool!

dozingoffdadMember since 2021
5 years ago

I know Meg lives on the west coast, but you weren’t up until after this posted? This guy’s got it made.

Appreciate the correction. Looking forward to the outrage over you bowing to public pressure. Just when we got Bryan Reynolds out of our systems.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  dozingoffdad

Bryan Reynolds isn’t out of my system.

synco
5 years ago

Next can you zap this entire comments thread?

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  synco

What a whiner lol

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  synco

Yeah I think everything has been resolved well. At this point it’s just people working out their own issues.

CC AFCMember since 2016
5 years ago

Much appreciated KG and Meg.

ImKeithHernandezMember since 2020
5 years ago

I had to read the quote again after seeing these comments to make the connection. Don’t feel too bad, you owned your mistake and apologized. Back to the countdown!

dozingoffdadMember since 2021
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Kevin getting wild with the quotes again. This one manages to be next-level because removing the expletive does nothing to blunt the aggressively weird imagery.

I guess we’re reaching the limit’s of Kevin’s patented peak-behind-the-scenes insights. A little mystery might be a good thing.

vft
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

They edited it, what did it say?

markmark
5 years ago

Hopefully John Nogowski’s first career homerun in career plate appearance No. 69 moves him up to the top 10. Can’t wait to read the blurb on him.

mikejuntMember
5 years ago

Number of players on today’s list people will be outraged are rated higher than Brian Reynolds: 3.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Bryan Reynolds is so passe. Today the outrage train moves to Trent Grisham! Or Will Smith, take your pick.

BillClinton
5 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

You’re right to point out Reynolds. This is where he belongs on the list.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago

I think I probably would have put Grisham ahead of Robert and Cronenworth behind him, simply because there is a serious shortage of good defenders in CF and because they have the same amount of team control. But it’s awesome that everyone now seems to be aware of how good Cronenworth is. I guess putting up more than 3 wins in 400 PAs will do that.

Let Jake Cronenworth also be a reminder that the Rays do not _always_ win their trades. It’s also kind of interesting the Padres stole both Cronenworth and Grisham in challenge trades with front offices who have reputations for making excellent deals (Brewers, Rays).

kid
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Who’s “Jake Croenworth”?

Is he related to Rake Cronenworth, the Padres batter?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  kid

No, but Rake Cronenworth is related to Fake Jonenworth. Fake’s giving it his all at high-A right now.

Dmjn53
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If I remember correctly Cronenworth was traded as a 40 man roster crunch casualty, but clearly a rare miss of an internal evaluation there

ALLluckNOtalentMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think Adames 2.5 WAR in 200 PA is a pretty easy recent example that Rays don’t win all trades

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago

Yes, but they didn’t exactly deal him from a position of strength. The problem with that whole situation was that they held him too long, until his problems at home dragged everything down with it.

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
5 years ago

I think that one was likely going to be a loss no matter what (although, they probably didn’t expect him to be this good). I do like the pitchers they got back, but they likely won’t win the deal.

Bartolo Cologne
5 years ago

One thing I’d add on Cronenworth: he can also play phenomenal 1B, decent SS, and even pitch respectably in a pinch. The man’s a unicorn and the type of revelation for the Padres that I saw appear on the Dodgers and Giants year after year and would think, “where do these guys come from and why can’t the Padres get one?”

LloydMember since 2018
5 years ago

Tucker behind Marte and Cronenworth feels wrong.

I know the latter two have more flexibility and play premium positions, but Tucker is 3 years younger, has the same/more years of control, better prospect pedigree than Cronenworth, and stays on the field more than Marte. I think Tucker gets consistently underrated/overlooked because a) he was terrible in his first MLB stint and b) he may only be the 5th-6th best hitter on his own team,

smb11488Member since 2018
5 years ago
Reply to  Lloyd

I think the unusual hitting mechanics add to the underrated part as well

CC AFCMember since 2016
5 years ago
Reply to  Lloyd

Defense is a thing. Also, I don’t know if this played into anyone else’s consideration, but he seems like the exact type of player that will run up big arbitration numbers relative to his actual production and limit his surplus value. That is, his homers and rbi will get paid and his less superlative obp and defense won’t get dinged

smb11488Member since 2018
5 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I know he’s down the spectrum from guys like Marte and Cronenworth but Tucker is a really solid defensive RF. The corner profile does make him less valuable late in arb though as you said.

Thinking about it more Cronenworth being the top ranked of them feels right. I think you can argue Marte vs Tucker since Marte looks like he might just be a 2B/LF guy going forward now and is older with less control than Tucker

Brock244
5 years ago

Instant reaction is 2 years of Urias and Flarehty seem a little high.

For instance, I would 100% take 2 years of Rafael Devers over them (who is quietly on pace to have two ~6 WAR seasons under his belt through age 24.. and he’s actually underperforming his expected numbers).

markmark
5 years ago
Reply to  Brock244

I think a lot of it comes down to Flaherty and Urias having high points that make them extremely intriguing to front offices around the league.

Not that I disagree with you, but I could understand the argument for a high ceiling starter over a really good corner infield bat. A lot of it is probably based more on the availability of a similar asset than production.

BROD
5 years ago
Reply to  Brock244

Jack Flaherty, who has been pretty bad over the past 2 years, (and Dylan Carlson) is on this list only because Ben Clemens is a fan of the Cardinals.

markmark
5 years ago
Reply to  BROD

If your definition of pretty bad is Jack Flaherty over the last two years, than most MLB starters must flat-out suck

BROD
5 years ago
Reply to  markmark

Visit his Baseball Savant page.

Lanidrac
5 years ago
Reply to  BROD

He was disappointing but still okay in last year’s wacko season, while he’s been absolutely fantastic this year before getting hurt. He was on track to be an All-Star until he strained his oblique!

synco
5 years ago
Reply to  Brock244

It’s a weird situation. I think the rankings are high, but at the same time both players have a lot of name recognition that would boost up their prices. And at least in the deadline deal world frontline starters do tend to go for more than hitters because their impact can be so immediate and meaningful, especially in the playoffs. Whereas if you’re trading at the start of the year or for the long term I’d probably take the hitter.

rhdx
5 years ago

Different teams have different strategies, but I wouldn’t mind a discussion of how mean performance versus variance factors into trade value. A guy who barring injury will almost certainly be solid just doesn’t seem as valuable as a guy who can be a star and still has a reasonable floor, even if the mean or median outcome for the first player might be higher. Fill your roster with cheap 2.5 WAR players and you have a lot of surplus value and your team still isn’t good enough without adding a $300 million dollar man or two. Since most teams won’t do that, the higher ceiling players are just worth more in trade value.

Dmjn53
5 years ago

Urias seems a bit high to me. He’s a good not great pitcher who’s had trouble staying on the field, and crucially only has 2 more years of control. I have a hard time seeing him fetching more in a trade than 4 years of Murphy, Will Smith, or Grisham. Good pitching is hard to find, but not as hard as star-level catchers or CF

dukewinslowMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

that’s the thing that got me. Is Urias too high or are Giolito and Flaherty too low? Without Urias, the reasoning around Giolito and Flaherty was pretty solid, IMO, and it feels appropriate. With Urias…. I think they’re a lot better than he is, and will be for a while on pretty cheap deals.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

It’s interesting that no one is questioning the placement of Giolito next to Flaherty. Giolito is projected for more than 1 win beyond Flaherty when you take this year into account (it’s almost at 1 win without it).

I think it’s Giolito, Flaherty, and Urias, in that order, and potentially with a lot of space between them. I’d probably put Flaherty in the 30s and Urias in the 40s.

texag
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m more interested in the Valdez ranking. Maybe I’m in the minority but his numbers don’t scream “front line starter” to me. If Giolito is being dinged because he’s not quite “ace material” (and the same argument for Flaherty), I don’t see how two more years of control over an objectively worse pitcher that is also older and has significantly less of a track record makes Valdez a better trade piece. I think in a poll between Urias, Flaherty, Giolito, and Valdez, Valdez would decidedly come in 4th for who people would prefer to build a rotation with.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

Agreed – it’s hard to pair “front-line starter” with sub-2 WAR projections…

PC1970Member since 2024
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

that was my 1st thought, esp your last sentence.

The other thought is would they take 4 years of Valdez over 5 years of Mize or Skubal? Esp with Mize’s draft position, which gives him an afterglow.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

I would trade Mize for Framber Valdez without thinking twice, and Skubal for Valdez with only an extra millisecond left for thought. Valdez’s WAR isn’t much to write home about, but fWAR doesn’t count groundballs as part of value (which is something that pitchers do have some control over). I think he’s going to have rate stats for a couple years similar to 2015 Dallas Keuchel, although probably in ~170 innings instead of 230.

I would take him over Urias and probably Flaherty too, not because he’s necessarily a better pitcher but he’s controlled for a lot longer. Although upon some reflection I’m not sure how confident I would be that I’d put Urias and Flaherty on a list like this, since the team control works against both of them, so that doesn’t give me a lot of confidence I’d stick Valdez this high either.

texag
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You’d take the 27 (almost 28) year old, arbitration eligible Valdez over the just turned 24 year old pre-arb Mize and the almost 25 year old pre-arb Skubal. I’m not saying I necessarily think Mize and Skubal are better pitchers right now but the gap isn’t significant enough that I’m going to take the older and more expensive player.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

Yes. Easily. I would take the guy who was on pace for more than a 4-win season last year while running a 60% ground ball rate over a probable #4 starter (Mize) or a talented but work-in-progress guy running a 5.16 xERA. This year the K’s are down slightly but he’s running a whopping 70% ground ball rate. I’m a huge defender of fWAR but this is exactly the kind of guy who fWAR will shortchange.

There’s a 50/50 shot that Skubal makes this argument look bad, but an equally likely chance that he makes this argument look really good. Mize, though, he’s going to be worse version of Valdez. That I feel pretty confident about. Valdez will certainly run a higher strikeout rate and induce more weak contact than Mize will over the next few years, and will probably be higher on both in most seasons as well.

synco
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

Or to make the same analogy I’ve made on each article, if you were offered Freddy Peralta or Framber Valdez and their contracts right now which would you take? It’s not clear to me at all that Valdez is a better pitcher, and Valdez is very possibly/probably earning more than Peralta over the next four years because Peralta’s contract is so cheap. I’m just a non-insider Internet Guy, but I take Peralta pretty easily.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

as someone noted below, if you think he’s a starter you have to double his projected innings

carterMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

How much of it is Urias’s usage by the Dodgers, though? Other teams know how the Dodgers use him, and could likely get more innings out of him.

Dmjn53
5 years ago
Reply to  carter

The Dodgers would know Urias better than anyone, given that they’ve had him for almost a decade. Similar to Snell leaving Tampa, I think those teams are limited their usage for a reason

OtterMember since 2016
5 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I’m shocked Urías is on this list tbh. Two years for a guy who has been hurt or average prior to this year? I’m not seeing it.

MLBtoPDX#2024
5 years ago

Cronenworth and his multiple position eligibility should have him ranked higher. Don’t forget the Kid can pitch as well. As for the Gioloto comment.. only a sicko would think of that quote and think it’s a “rape euphemism”. To top that only lil boys would cry a river about the authors choice of quotes or the fact the “quote” made it past editing. Does Sad Trombone ever not give his opinion? He sure must like reading himself

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

I do.

Psychic... Powerless...
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I like reading you, too, sadtrombone

tbwhite67Member since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

sorry, but that is exactly what it is, a reference to anal rape. Google it. Actually, don’t. But I would love to hear your PG rated explanation of that quote.

carterMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  tbwhite67

For those of us who missed it, what did it say?

dukewinslowMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  MLBtoPDX#2024

I mean, it’s definitely a sex term, and definitely FRAMED as involuntary. Like someone said above, it’s not like Gio was bad on purpose.

diminishedsixthsense
5 years ago

basically zero chance framber valdez sticks on this list lol

Raidas77
5 years ago

Have you actually seen Framber Valdez pitch on a regular basis? He shuts people down. While he doesn’t have an elite K%, it’s not pedestrian. And he has a SEVENTY percent GB%. 15% better than the qualified leaders.

The question shouldn’t be why is Framber ranked so high. The question should be why are Framber’s ZIPS projections so low? Where can I take the over?

diminishedsixthsense
5 years ago
Reply to  Raidas77

bookmarked lmao

hayz11Member since 2021
5 years ago
Reply to  Raidas77

ZIPS only has him as a part time starter, averaging barely 100 innings over the next few years. If he’s treated as a full time starter those projections are likely in the 2.5-3 range

synco
5 years ago

a) in a year with a significantly weird list, nothing is going to get weirder than a prison rape reference in one of the players’ bios. One hopes.

b) Urias seems a little high on performance and time left, but I do think he would garner a bundle because of name recognition. I’m just not sure that none of the guys below him or who didn’t make the list wouldn’t do it for him. Ditto Marte, who I think would garner less. Double ditto Framber.

texag
5 years ago

So apparently Yoan Moncada reads these articles because he took that “lack of power” comment to heart this last week.

Soxfan2
5 years ago
Reply to  texag

4 more years of control. 8th in WAR 2019-Present. Not fully matured as a hitter. GG defender. He was an odd omission from the list

Rational FanMember since 2025
5 years ago
Reply to  Soxfan2

Especially given how fangraphs was always the high guys on the moncada prospect evaluation totem pole. They got him right but jumped off too soon.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
5 years ago

Just a glaring failure of authorial and editorial judgment to include in the first place, and then preserve through to publishing, the line in Giolito’s blurb. Adds absolutely nothing to the blurb that couldn’t have been communicated by paraphrasing what the scout said. We all know that ‘locker room talk’ is common parlance in the game, it’s not necessary here. We get it, you have insider contacts, I could not care less about their Jesus-fighting and rape analogies that really only serve to stoke pointless garbage in the comment section and possibly offend other readers.

Do better.

Meg RowleyFanGraphs Staff
5 years ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

I’ll echo what Kevin said above. I’m embarrassed to say that I did not make the connection to that phrase’s definition until our readers did, am very sorry it was included, and apologize for any pain or discomfort it caused. And we’ll definitely be much more careful going forward.

3cardmontyMember since 2025
5 years ago
Reply to  Meg Rowley

It would be much more embarrassing if you guys HAD clocked the meaning and kept it in. You guys do great work and I know your standards are higher than that, so I have no trouble believing the mistake was unwitting. Thanks for the edit and the responses.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Well said Monty

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Good job Monty

Psychic... Powerless...
5 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Yeah, I didn’t see the quote, and I’ve been critical of the editing on this site, but I don’t believe there’s any chance Meg would knowingly leave in a reference to rape.

ALLluckNOtalentMember since 2017
5 years ago

Surprised more comments aren’t jumping on Framber’s mediocre projections. That is the type of production that can be signed in most offseasons for somewhat reasonable amounts so the surplus value/scarcity value for him just doesn’t seem there

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
5 years ago

ZiPS must be projecting him as a part-time reliever. It just doesn’t make sense if that’s not the case.

smb11488Member since 2018
5 years ago

The ZiPS projections have him at ~120 innings for the next 3 years which is a big part of it

TerenceMember since 2016
5 years ago

ZIPS (for good reason) is slow to change it’s mind on pitcher’s performance, especially the in season version. It also pretty much only uses innings pitched previously to predict future innings pitched.

Most of us and certainly the writers are expecting better production and significantly more production in the future than that ZIPS projection is.

Raidas77
5 years ago

Framber is a HOSS. The ZIPS projections are severely low on him. No other playoff teams want to see him on the mound for Houston in the playoffs. You’re hoping for anyone else.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
5 years ago

Rutschman is somehow too low. Discuss.

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
5 years ago

Probably the least “controversial” section of the list to this point (where are the Reynolds comments, damn it?!, and apparently there was some sort of insensitive line thrown in here that I didn’t get to see, so not free from controversy).

Anyways, not sure how Framber Valdez makes it this high up on the list considering those projections. I do like Valdez a lot, but I’m wondering if those projections are projecting him to get some time in relief which is dragging his WAR down? Doesn’t make sense considering the blurb and his results this year that he’d be projected so lowly. The ZiPS projections on his player page (from pre-season) do have projected to be a part-time starter, so I do think that’s what is happening here with his low projections.

jkdjeffMember since 2026
5 years ago

I rarely read comments here. Are they always this much of a dumpster fire? Do they actually add any value to the site?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  jkdjeff

They are usually far, far better than this.

Every so often about 5-12 people who are very vocally against FG come out when they sense a chance to talk about controversial issues, but even then it usually doesn’t snowball like this.

jkdjeffMember since 2026
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If it’s a recurring issue and they don’t have the bandwidth to effectively moderate obvious bad actors, they should lose the comment section.

Jason BMember since 2017
5 years ago
Reply to  jkdjeff

It’s usually a very good discussion of baseball topics by generally intelligent people. Much better than 98% of internet commenter-dom than you will encounter.

There’s even plenty of room for civil disagreement, even if “but I needs my rape analogies!” is an odd hill to die upon.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Right, I mean up above I had an interesting conversation about the merits of Framber Valdez vs. Tarik Skubal / Casey Mize. We disagreed rather strongly but I thought everyone was civil and brought a lot of thoughts into the conversation.

dozingoffdadMember since 2021
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

The funny thing is the discussion of this article over on Reddit doesn’t even mention it. I assumed it would be worse. Definitely some Framber debate, but nothing about the scout’s comment.

Dmjn53
5 years ago
Reply to  jkdjeff

Deleting the comment section would be a disastrous decision.

synco
5 years ago
Reply to  jkdjeff

It’s not usually like this – the board usually avoids politics, and most people have enough sense to let the subject pass by when it does comes up so that FanGraphs doesn’t become like every other site on the Internet. Apparently there were a few guys who were triggered and couldn’t handle it this morning, but it’s not a usual thing.

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  synco

Yeah that original poster should have really refrained from letting folks know he was on the right side of history and just let old school execs be old school execs and none of this would have happened. Have to get your pats on the head on the internet though.

MLBtoPDX#2024
5 years ago

Paraphrase: “ 2018 Lucas put himself in bad position with the baseball gods. But he put his back to the Wall worked his ass off and didn’t let em get to him” any team would want a guy as resilient as that

Dmjn53
5 years ago

4 years of Will Smith, who you know is very good, versus 7 years of Rutschman, who will probably be very good, is an interesting debate.

jayman4Member since 2018
5 years ago

Please, please, please do worst existing contracts, presumably the lowest trade value. Now that Pujols is gone, as a Padres fan, it would somehow be healing to see Hosmer near, or at, the “top” of that list. Davis, Cabrera, Sale there are others but he has to be up there.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  jayman4

Cabrera is number one with several exclamation marks. Strasburg and Stanton will probably still be useful but the injuries have clearly affected Stanton and Strasburg’s contract was bad even before he got hurt.

Then I would think Hosmer would be there. Jason Heyward, too. Marcell Ozuna and Trevor Bauer, but mostly for off-the-field reasons.

Yelich would probably be on after those seven or so, although there’s a chance he could still bounce back and he’s still definitely a useful and probably a good player. Paul Goldschmidt and Joey Votto are in a similar category, although they’re clearly not stars anymore and have a lot less money on their deals. There may be some buyer’s remorse about DJ LeMahieu but it’s too soon for us to really worry. And then Charlie Blackmon, who doesn’t have a lot of salary left and isn’t totally done but is still a bad value.

averagejoe15Member since 2024
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Hosmer’s contract isn’t even that bad since it was front loaded.

And I do want to point out Votto is smashing this year and was getting really unlucky to start the year.

Lanidrac
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

While Goldschmidt isn’t a superstar anymore, he’s still a better player (on both offense and defense) than Votto is.

Lanidrac
5 years ago
Reply to  jayman4

Pujols is technically still being paid the remainder of his $30M this year by the Angels.

mikecws91
5 years ago

Definitely in the top 20: Tatis, Acuña, Soto, Albies, Guerrero, Bieber, Bichette, Woodruff, Franco, Burnes, Buehler, Ohtani, Bregman, Trout, deGrom, Luciano

Hope they didn’t just forget about him: Jiménez

Other possibilities: Hayes, Y. Alvarez, Gallen, N. Marte, F. Alvarez, Mahle, Greene, Sánchez, Riley

sadtromboneMember since 2020
5 years ago
Reply to  mikecws91

I would be stunned if they put Luciano or F. Alvarez or Hunter Greene above Adley but they weren’t on the prospects list. I think it’s more likely they left some top guys off that list than they’re above Adley. Franco will be on it, though.

It seems impossible to think that Bregman would be this high on the list but I bet he is. He had a two year stretch where he was just awesome but the ball was very different then and the Astros were still cheating. He’s just not hitting as well as he used to and I think there might be a good reason for I’d. I’d easily take Moncada over him.

I would have thought Jimenez would have been on it by now, too. Gallen, and Yordan Alvarez too.

I don’t know which Sanchez you are referring to but I can’t think of one that would be on this list. Mahle and Riley seem like an honorable mention.

Ohtani and deGrom are probably on the “they’re awesome but the team control is winding down” so they’ll be placed lower than their performance suggests.

Betts and Trout and Tatis Jr will probably be on the list together, guys who are impossible to value because they’re so good but their contracts are untradeable. Of those I’d have Tatis Jr as the top one, I’ll be curious to see what they say.

Top one will undoubtedly be Acuna or Vlad Jr, with the other one and Albies and Soto in the Top 5.

averagejoe15Member since 2024
5 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Tatis’ contract is far from untradeable. By the time he’s earning that $36m a year on the back end, $36m won’t seem like such a big number.

TKDCMember since 2016
5 years ago
Reply to  averagejoe15

Tatis will be top-3. With Acuña (likely still #1 even hurt, would for sure be #1 if this list were made a couple weeks ago) and Vlad Jr. Albies should be 4th I think. Soto is getting to where the limited years of team control will drop him, not to mention his so-so-for-him first half.

cubfanjack
5 years ago

Never ceases to amaze me at how highly prospects (Adley R) that have done zero at the big league level get valued.

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
5 years ago

I will never understand the anti woke crowd. Whine and bitch about…politeness? How privileged does a person have to be to think politeness is a major issue? Such a bizarre “political” stance “hey look at those guys being polite and tactful! What losers!”

wokegraphs
5 years ago

It’s institutionalized weakness and victimhood

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

Not to mention anti-humanist, anti-materialist essentialism. It destroys any hope at solidarity or political action necessary to achieve universalist policy or progress benefiting the most of us who need it most (healthcare, plz).

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

No, it’s literally just being polite, empathetic, and courteous.

wokegraphs
5 years ago

Keep telling yourself that and someday it might become true.

baseballenjoyer
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

Never thought the Aimee Therese gang would make their way to FG.

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

No it’s not. It’s common courtesy.

Anecdotally an overwhelming percent of people who get worked up about it are people who don’t hold professional jobs. People who work professional jobs have to do this all day every day It’s not difficult to be nice and being nice isn’t weakness.

I’ll also ad that thinking of “weakness” in that way is very bizarre and comes across as a massive insecurity.

wokegraphs
5 years ago

Ah yes, the _professional managerial class_ that we should all want to emulate. The vanguard cadre for capital.

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

Working with and living around a diverse pool people will make a person more empathetic. Being polite isn’t a big deal. Embracing rudeness as a political stance is degrading our society. What is so controversial about saying “act like a professional” or “be polite”?

There are plenty other issues that actually matter. I don’t understand wasting your energy on fighting being polite and courteous.

wokegraphs
5 years ago

This is a straw argument. Politeness is violence in ansociety with this sort of material inequality. It’s just status quo manners.

ccjl
5 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs

So I’m guessing user Bill Clinton had their commenting rights restricted, so they made a new ‘wokegraphs’ account?

Might be best to lock comments on the article if possible

wokegraphs
5 years ago
Reply to  ccjl

Fangraphs readers are surprisingly censorious.

gtagomoriMember since 2017
5 years ago

I think the edit for the Giolito comment was (1) appropriate (2) timely (3) generally as graciously done as possible.

Well done IMO.

gtagomoriMember since 2017
5 years ago

So, how do the Dodgers get a third team to acquire Marte from AZ and flip him to them?

Come to think of it the “other” Marte would just as useful.

arrantjudgement
5 years ago

Framber Valdez, though I like him, seems as bit high given the aforementioned prior troubles with walk rates, pedestrian strike out rates (right at +99 or 99% based on +100 stats since debut in 2018), five-year projected war <10, and reliance on groundballs which will always have higher variance than a pure strike out pitcher, and some injury concerns. Especially given five-year projection, I'd have to assume industry feedback was quite positive?