A High Velocity Usage Tax: A Proposal To Protect Pitchers

Orlando Ramirez-USA TODAY Sports

Like everyone else in and around baseball, I’ve been following the conversations about the persistent prevalence of pitcher injuries, specifically the straining and tearing of the ulnar collateral ligament (UCL) that leads to Tommy John surgery. Eury Pérez, Shane Bieber, Spencer Strider, Nick Pivetta, Jonathan Loáisiga, Trevor Gott, and Josiah Gray all landed on the IL within the first couple of weeks of the 2024 season with some manner of elbow injury, renewing concerns for pitchers’ health that have become an annual April tradition over the last decade or so.

There’s no consensus as to the cause of all these elbow injuries, and there’s even less agreement on how to prevent them, but most agree a solution is needed. As I listened to prominent figures in baseball weigh in on the issue, an idea for a new rule began to formulate in my mind, something akin to a high velocity usage tax. I threw some publicly available injury and usage data at it, and it held up well enough for me to feel comfortable unleashing it from the confines of my skull to run free in the world. Essentially, my proposal would cap the number of innings that harder-throwing hurlers can pitch in a season, while also limiting the pitchers on a roster and curbing roster management protocols to avoid churning through max-velo pitchers as they reach the innings threshold. I’ll go into greater detail of my proposal a little later, but first, let’s run through some of the possible causes of the elbow-injury problem, as well as some of the suggested solutions to it.

The most recent round of discourse kicked off with the MLBPA taking aim at the pitch clock for cutting into pitchers’ recovery time between pitches, which was promptly undercut by comments from the PA’s own members. People also pointed out that research done by Johns Hopkins when the pitch clock was implemented in the minors showed no increased injury risk, and that the upward trend in elbow injuries predates the pitch clock by several years.

Alternatives to the pitch clock theory include increases to pitchers’ velocity, workloads that incentivize max effort, flawed mechanics, year-round training, under-studied training methods, and pitch design altering grips and deliveries in a way that adds stress to the elbow. Realistically, there probably isn’t a singular cause. Rather the confluence of everything pitchers need to do to compete at an elite level creates a hazardous work environment for elbow ligaments. And thanks to the increased availability of technology and data, the arms race to gain a competitive edge now runs at warp speed.

Speaking about the circumstances pitchers face during a Sunday Night Baseball broadcast last month, former Cy Young winner, David Cone, summarized how pitchers conduct their bullpen sessions by looking over data that track their spin rates, movement, velocity, and approach angles between every pitch. Cone highlighted the crux of the issue: “[Pitchers are] chasing a metric. They’re chasing a mathematical equation that has data behind it that shows that this is more successful. And they’re right. It doesn’t take a genius to say, if you throw harder, at a higher velocity, with more effective movement or tighter spin, it’s going to be harder to hit.”

Pitchers are incentivized to prevent runs at all costs and teams feel more comfortable if they can do it in a measurable and projectable way. As part of an in-game interview during that same broadcast, Tyler Glasnow offered his thoughts on the spate of UCL injuries. “Everyone throws a billion,” said Glasnow, who had internal brace surgery after tearing his UCL in June 2021 and didn’t return until late September 2022. “I think even from when I was in high school the mentality around that, from like 2011 and onward, was very much like just throw really hard. You’ll get more scouts.” Even if pitchers had concerns about the health of their arm, those thoughts were swept to the side because, as Glasnow recalled, “The goal of all this is to get to the big leagues and you can figure out all the other stuff later.”

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An anonymous pitcher who has undergone Tommy John surgery expressed similar sentiments in an article for Baseball Prospectus, “I think I speak for the dominant portion of pitchers when I say that most of us will take the higher injury risk associated with throwing harder in exchange for a better chance of getting hitters out.” The pitcher also noted that high velocity is perhaps the most proven commodity for getting outs and that adding a couple ticks of velo is a more straightforward task for many pitchers than improving other pitching characteristics, like command.

The current incentives clearly prioritize improving measurables over preventing injuries. As the anonymous pitcher puts it, “Nobody who has entered the professional ranks as a pitcher did so because they wanted to make sure they never hurt their arm.” The pitchers who make it to the major league level want to stay there and they want to win; the rewards of that are worth the injury risks, full stop.

Major league pitchers are unlikely to stop chasing metrics on their own, so the league needs to be the one to shift the incentives for pitchers. But given all the theories floating around, with varying levels of evidence to back them up, where does MLB even start? Recently, The Athletic proposed four rule changes to reduce pitcher injury rates and ran them by MLB executives. Each proposal had its merits, but none received rave reviews from front offices. Former Phillies R&D staffer Lewie Pollis, pitched an increased penalty for hit-by-pitches, primarily in the name of reducing strikeouts, but pitchers swapping velocity for command to avoid a costly HBP would likely bring the added benefit of cutting down on UCL injuries — not to mention fewer injuries on HBPs. The main downside to this approach is the in-game penalty would impose a more dramatic disturbance to the rhythm of the game.

Any new rule proposal should rely on the existing research surrounding UCL injuries. The most researched variables are velocity and workload, followed by some studies measuring the elbow stress associated with different types of breaking balls. Dr. Glenn Fleisig’s name appears on almost all of the major studies, and last month, he told Ben Lindbergh of The Ringer that there are “three main injury risk factors for pitchers: effort (which manifests as velocity), volume of pitching, and mechanics,” with velocity clocking in at number one. Lindbergh somewhat dismisses pitching volume as a factor for professionals, citing the sharp decrease in both pitch counts and innings totals in recent years. Even so, he notes that although pitchers aren’t on the mound as often as they once were, they are throwing closer to max effort a greater proportion of the time they do spend on the mound, which suggests that some workloads put higher stress on the elbow than others.

Since the current research points to velocity and workload as it pertains to the usage of max effort or high velocity pitches as the likely highest contributors to UCL injuries, my proposed rule focuses on workload as a function of velocity, though its framework could be adapted or expanded to focus on other metrics as well.

To be clear: We can’t put a blanket ban on pitches topping a certain velocity without dramatically altering the flow of the game. Lindbergh suggests limiting the number of pitchers permitted on a roster as a means of incentivizing starters to pitch deeper into games, which in turn, would likely require throwing max effort less often. My proposal also incorporates a roster limit on pitchers, but extends the theory behind it in a more targeted manner to protect pitchers with the previously alluded to use tax.

Say every pitcher, regardless of role, starts the season with an allotment of 180 innings (roughly the median IP for qualified starters over the last three seasons), but the 180-inning cap only kicks in if a pitcher throws more than 15 pitches over 95 mph. Meaning pitchers who pride themselves on eating innings can still aim for 200, if they are willing to keep their velo in the mid to lower 90s. Once a pitcher logs 15 pitches harder than 95 mph, the 180-inning cap goes into effect (including innings already thrown on the season). The first 15 pitches act as a buffer, a few freebies doled out to every pitcher so there’s some room for error before any innings tax is imposed. From that point forward, for every three pitches thrown over 95 mph, the pitcher loses an inning from the initial allotment of 180. Under this rule a pitcher who makes 30ish starts can deploy three heaters that top 95 mph per outing and still throw 155 innings while averaging five-plus innings per start. Meanwhile, relievers who don’t need to worry about throwing at least 150 innings, can reach back for their high octane stuff four to six times per inning as leverage dictates, and still carry a workload of 60 to 80 innings.

The numbers guiding the rule were not chosen arbitrarily. When comparing the throwing habits of pitchers who have needed TJ to those who have not (yet) undergone the procedure, TJ-free pitchers average between 100 and 310 pitches over 95 mph per season (with relievers making up the higher end of the range since they throw less overall), while the average for those who have TJ sits between 170 and 410 pitches. Though the pitcher profiles that make up these average ranges are highly variable, the difference between the average usage of hard fastballs between those who have undergone Tommy John surgery and those who have not is statistically significant. Therefore, aiming to stay at or below the average for the non-TJ contingent provides a reasonable benchmark given the takeaways from existing research on workload and fastball usage.

As alluded to above, the rule also requires a hard cap on the number of team roster spots for pitchers. To prevent the extinction of the starting pitcher, there need to be guardrails in place to prevent teams from converting their entire staff to three-inning nonstarters as a means of still permitting them to throw hard fairly frequently. If teams can only carry 12 pitchers, as opposed to the current 13, at least a few of them need to be capable of consistently pitching deep in games. Similarly, tweaks would need to be made to the roster management protocols to prevent teams from using one roster spot as a rotating cast of DFA candidates, Jarrett Seidler and Rob Mains for Baseball Prospectus. Otherwise, it’s possible to envision teams exploiting Quad-A type pitchers to come up and absorb a handful of innings while throwing as hard as they want because they’ll be sent packing long before they reach the innings cap.

That’s the framework of the proposal, but before getting into a discussion of its merits, we should ask if it’s even reasonable for pitchers to make this type of adjustment. Some pitchers won’t need to adjust because they don’t throw 95 mph at all (hello, Ranger Suárez). Others may choose not to adjust their approach on the mound, and instead accept a smaller workload. But for starters who do throw gas and want to maintain their role as a starter, they’ll need to learn to pull back and only reach for the heat at opportune moments. How easy is it to vary speed and effort within an outing? How effective will pitchers be at less than max effort? Let’s ask the pitchers.

Justin Verlander recently told reporters that he felt pressure to change his usage as the run environment changed and other pitchers started throwing harder. “I was throwing 92-93 early in games and if I needed to go to the well and hit 100, I could [do that] late in games, but I certainly wasn’t throwing 100 every pitch.” Then around 2016 his mentality and approach changed, “The game dictated that I need to start trying to throw harder.”

When the Sunday Night Baseball crew asked Glasnow what he does to try and stay healthy, he specifically said he’s not the type to pull back and rely on his command to “Dot the corners at 92,” but he did concede that he doesn’t throw max effort on every pitch like he has in the past and incorporating secondary pitches has allowed him “to become more of a pitcher, as opposed to just a thrower.”

In 2014, Zack Greinke spoke about a self-imposed cap he put on his slider usage after noticing his elbow felt different after slider-heavy starts. His goal was to only throw the pitch 15-20 times per start as a way of managing the wear and tear on his elbow, but he also allowed the circumstances of the game dictate when he might exceed his slider quota, “In what I would deem a very important at-bat or a very important pitch, yes, I would throw the slider… If it takes eight sliders to get that guy out, I’m going to throw eight sliders.”

Clayton Kershaw’s fastball is a legend unto itself, in part because it doesn’t come with an extreme heat warning. Instead Kershaw keeps hitters off balance by delivering the pitch from the same tunnel as his slider and relying on late movement through the zone to sneak it past hitters, regardless of whether the radar gun reads 94 or 90. Shota Imanaga’s name doesn’t carry the same cachet as Clayton Kershaw, but his 92 mph fastball is effective for similar reasons. Imanaga throws a rising four-seamer that he locates at the top of the zone and pairs it with a splitter aimed at the bottom of the zone that keeps batters guessing. Michael Barker recently wrote about Kevin Gausman and Nestor Cortes as examples of pitchers who are effective at an average fastball velocity that sits 2-3 mph below their max velocity, allowing them to save that max velocity for moments in the game when they need it most. Kershaw, Imanaga, Gausman, and Cortes demonstrate that velocity isn’t the only way to win, even in a league obsessed with throwing harder and harder.

Returning to the proposed rule on the table, let’s summarize what it does and does not address. It requires pitchers to vary their velocity, as advocated by Dr. Fleisig. It does not address torque applied to the elbow when throwing other pitch types, nor does it address the increased tension stemming from flawed mechanics or pitchers attempting to improve their grip and pronation to optimize pitch shape. It also does not directly address pitch usage or workload considerations at the amateur level, but it’s reasonable to assume that whatever catches on at the pro level will influence the standards set at the amateur level, such as what we’ve seen with pitch counts.

Now, to everyone’s favorite decision making aid: the pro/con list. this approach reduces the most acute risk factors identified by experts so far, and therefore, should reduce the frequency of UCL injuries. Since this proposal does not include an immediate, in-game consequence for throwing hard, the flow of the game would not be disrupted, as it would with a ban or other mechanisms for limiting high velocity. No pitcher would be forced to change their style of pitching (though some may need to accept a reduced workload), and relatedly, no type of pitcher would be fully eliminated from the game.

Meanwhile, the rule encourages more variety in the types of pitchers capable of finding success in the big leagues. Players would spend less time competing to overpower hitters and instead spend more time mastering a wider variety of methods, such as deception, command, tunneling, and sequencing. And as pitchers creatively strategize their individual approaches, the rule would introduce a compelling element for teams as they attempt to construct and optimally deploy a pitching staff with enough bullets to last a full season.

But even with all that strategizing, pitchers as a whole are likely to lose some effectiveness. This is obviously a con for pitchers, but a pro for hitters and a league that seems keen to increase overall offense and specifically, balls in-play.

As a final entry in the pro column, the scheme presented is a concept that is simple both to track and discuss. A player’s actual innings remaining (assuming no pitches harder than 95 mph) and their projected innings remaining (based on the pitcher’s average number of pitches above 95 mph in the current season) could easily be added to a FanGraphs player page or appended to the stats graphic broadcasts display as a pitcher warms up on the mound, and announcers could feasibly keep tabs on it as the game action unfolds.

In the cons column, I must acknowledge how carefully I worded the pro argument regarding existing research. I chose the word “should” to preface the potential reduction in injuries because there is no formal testing of this specific approach, and even if a study were to begin tomorrow, it would require several years of data to determine if it’s working. The uncertainty around this proposal is the primary argument against it, and that rightfully carries a lot of weight.

I don’t have a great counter to the uncertainty argument, except to emphasize the reality of what modern pitching is doing to players’ elbows. UCL injuries are knocking great pitchers out of the game for prolonged stretches, and as a result teams are starting to treat them like paper plates rather than fine china. Something needs to change to preserve long-term player health. That doesn’t mean the league should act out of irrational desperation. It should use the best information available to create a plan for reducing risk, which is what this rule attempts to do.

But is MLB willing to make an impactful change to protect pitcher health and the broader health of the game itself? Clearly, the league is concerned about UCL injuries. Lindbergh reported that last October MLB began a comprehensive study on the topic consisting of “data analysis and approximately 100 interviews with informed figures, including doctors, trainers, independent researchers, college coaches, amateur baseball coaches and stakeholders, former pitchers, front-office members, pitching coaches, and current players.” The aforementioned Dr. Fleisig is one of the consulting experts and he told Lindbergh that the study doesn’t just aim to survey the situation; it also seeks to find and implement solutions.

Further, the league owns a prominent historical example of curbing a behavior that enhanced player performance, but came with health risks. Enforcing a ban on PEDs removed the incentive for players to subject themselves to serious side effects in order to compete at the highest level of the sport. As long as PEDs were legal, there would always be a subset of players willing to risk their health for a competitive edge, and in turn, tempt everyone else to do so too in order to keep pace. With respect to pitching, as long as George Kirby can strike out the side with a 12-pitch first inning composed of one slider and 11 fastballs all topping 97 mph, other pitchers are going to try and keep pace. (and as long as it’s permitted and he feels comfortable, Kirby should absolutely keep doing that because it rules!)

As quoted above, many pitchers feel pressured to chase velocity and risk future injury in favor of making it to the majors. They will only start to vary their speeds and find other ways to get outs if a structural change forces a collective shift in approach. As it stands, the current methods are too darn effective. The comparison to banning PEDs isn’t perfect since that change came with a guarantee to fully mitigate the associated risks. The only way to fully mitigate the risks of pitching is to outright ban pitching, and I think we all agree that’s not a viable solution. No one wants to watch Elly De La Cruz hit off a tee instead of a pitcher (though certainly it would be fun to watch him demolish line drives into the bleachers off a tee before a game). But baseball needs to do something. So let’s take a swing at what current research suggests are the riskiest aspects of pitching and be nimble enough to adjust the approach as new research comes in.

It’s worth noting that while my proposal targets those aspects of pitching that seem to come with the most injury risks, it isn’t intended to be comprehensive. Rather, mine is meant to be one possible part of a multi-pronged solution. The league’s study seems to be approaching the problem from many angles and hopefully will include things like preventative arm care, more advanced treatment methods, and the implementation of new training programs designed to help pitchers chase metrics safely. The league should also consider offering grants with no strings attached to independent researchers to assure the public that it isn’t biasing research results.

However MLB chooses to proceed, it needs to act with a sense of urgency. Because as the great philosopher Lloyd once said, “We got no aces, we got no depth, our pitchers arms are falling off!”





Kiri lives in the PNW while contributing part-time to FanGraphs and working full-time as a data scientist. She spent 5 years working as an analyst for multiple MLB organizations. You can find her on Bluesky @kirio.bsky.social.

158 Comments
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tjcook87Member since 2020
2 years ago

This was a fantastic read – starting out with that. Immense depth here. Good stuff.

As someone adjacent to youth sports, MLB pitcher injuries just speaks to me as a symptom of the larger cultural disease – throw harder year round, for much longer, and your elbow will eventually pop. But as mentioned above (specifically the Glasnow & anonymous pitcher section), that’s what gets hitters out, gets scout’s eyes, and gets you to the majors. Which, everyone can make their own opinion about the general health of that.

Uncle SpikeMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  tjcook87

You guys are going about this all wrong. Here’s my top 5 solutions guaranteed to work.

1) Color Changing Ball – When exceeding 95 MPH, the ball starts glowing red. The higher the velocity, the brighter it glows making it easier to see and hit.

2) Ball Flaps – Similar to the wings of an airplane, when the ball exceeds 95 MPH, ball flaps would pop up increasing the drag on the ball thus slowing it down and making it easier to hit.

3) Oscillating Mound – The mound will move back 1 foot for every 1 MPH the pitch exceeds the 95 MPH limit on the following pitch.

4) Shrinking Strike Zone – The strike zone gets smaller for every 1 MPH the pitch exceeds the limit. Roboumps required.

5) Metal Bat Penalty- Anytime a pitch exceeds 95 MPH, the batter gets to use a metal bat for the remainder of the AB. If the pitch ended the AB, the next batter can use a metal bat for the entirety of their AB.

I recommend implementing all 5 rules simultaneously.

Last edited 2 years ago by Uncle Spike
Da Bear
2 years ago
Reply to  Uncle Spike

Would rule 3 work in reverse–drop a 45MPH eephus in and get to deliver your next pitch from 10 feet?

Just watch out for the comebacker.

SaltyMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  Da Bear

I was thinking the same thing. If that’s how Rule 3 would work, Bartolo Colon would like to discuss implementation of this rule as soon as possible and un-retire.

Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  tjcook87

Suggesting rules to force the best players to try hard less often seems absurd.

This isn’t like head trauma in football. These injuries aren’t (to my knowledge) severely affecting quality of life post career. They aren’t even ending careers.

It’s frustrating for all, but established MLB players can afford to get hurt.
It’s all the aspiring players/kids for whom this is a much bigger concern. And these proposed rule changes won’t affect them at all. (other than possibly limiting their opportunities)

Besides, if there is sufficient clear data showing that throwing too many pitches faster than 95mph significantly increases risk of damage then established players will choose to pace themselves (exactly as Greinke described). And fringe players will still push themselves to secure contracts, but the risks would be factored into their potential contracts (and at least they have a chance).

GTOBalance
2 years ago

No rules changes are about the health of the players themselves lmao why would you ever think that, it’s to protect the league. It’s in MLBs best interest to have pitchers out there all season who you have heard of, versus pitchers nobody has ever heard of.

Imagine if Mahomes and Burrow and Stroud threw their arm off by week 8 every season…the NFL would change the rules to keep them safe by the next season.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
2 years ago
Reply to  GTOBalance

Which pitcher is as remotely important to MLB as Mahomes is to the NFL?

joeybswiftMember since 2018
2 years ago

I’m way more interested in the implications of the Verlander, Greinke, and Glasnow comments than any rule change. Not everyone is as cerebral as Greinke or has has the injury experience of Glasnow, but I would think teams that are interested in the value of their players would take these lessons into account on their own.

As an example, Tyler Glasnow “pitching” instead of max efforting is still worth much more than the next AAA starter. Similarly, teams would seem interested in maintaining pre-arb years on prospects who otherwise loose a year and a half to TJ.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  joeybswift

I found this part fascinating as well because I thought Verlander was seriously on the decline when he was traded to the Astros in that post-deadline deal. And then he went to the Astros pitcher lab and became a total monster. But by the sound of it, he needed a full change in approach as well.

In any case, he was averaging 93.5 on his fastball in 2016, down from a previous high of 95+ from 2009-2011. And then in 2017 he was right back above 95, and hovered around 95 for the rest of his Houston tenure. I think the answer to why he suddenly became better than ever is partially that he just started going all out earlier.

fanofthemanMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

which does make me wonder if he could have been even more of a monster earlier in his career, even at the cost of longevity. MVP Verlander but plus 10-20 percent effort? Jacob DeGrom???

dbannonMember since 2022
2 years ago

The main issue I notice with the proposal:

Eury Perez: never thrown 180 IP
Shane Bieber: doesn’t touch 95
Nick Pivetta: never thrown 180 IP
Trevor Gott: reliever
Jonathan Loaisiga: reliever
Josiah Gray: never thrown 180 IP

Of course, the goal for the starters is to surpass that, but I don’t think they’d sacrifice their effectiveness to reach that number. And, they all got hurt anyway.

The rule would’ve only (maybe) protected Strider- none of the other injured players would’ve changed anything about their approach. I think the IP number would have to be 150 or lower, which would effectively signal the end of the SP.

Sorry to add problems without a solution, but figured this was worth noting.

SyndergaardengnomesMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  dbannon

Nate Lavender for the Mets, who looked like a promising reliever, just underwent his TJS, and he tops out at 91.

I know a few examples don’t disprove a point, but you look at the Marlins, and how they’ve done everything “right” with regard to babying their starters, and it didn’t make a lick of difference.

Daniel -Member since 2024
2 years ago

The marlins let alcantara throw an absurd amount of innings and he throws very hard. Not to say that was the wrong decision, but it definitely isn’t babying.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  dbannon

I have no idea what the actual problem is here, but it seems like every time a player comes back with dramatically nastier “stuff” it ends up with the guy blowing out his arm a year+ later. Sometimes it’s velocity, sometimes it is movement, etc. Emmet Sheehan is the latest guy, but it would also apply to Perez and Bieber.

There’s also just a base-rate amount of blowing out their arm, probably because of the workload pitchers have as amateurs and which pro teams have no control over and the fact that throwing even 90 MPH is an unnatural act. But if we’re looking at elevated reasons for guys blowing out their arm, it isn’t just the velocity but just a general reinvention of what they are doing to get the stuff “nastier.”

mikejuntMember
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The thing all these solutions are missing in all of these alternatives that involve ‘better incentives to do things differently than they’re doing them now’ is that they do not address the *doing things differently will make the pitchers less effective*.

A solution has to not just incentivize people to use a different approach, it has to *find a way to mitigate that approach being less good at actually retiring hitters*, or neither teams or players will be interested in it. And since ‘more velocity and more movement are harder to hit’ is a fundamental truth of baseball, its going to take some creative stuff to get around this problem, and none of these ideas (in the article or the comments) is addressing that problem.

We could find ways to get pitcher velocity back down. We would probably also return to 1990s offensive levels if we rolled pitcher velocity back 2-3 mph on average.

omar207
2 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

THIS ^

Exactly my point. Why would anyone be interested in incentivizing an inferior product? The energy spent on these ideas would be far better used to examine the diet-, kinesthetic,- and other scientific solutions that hold hope for preventing the physical breakdown of athletes, rather than mindless arbitrary restrictions on an athletic action that has no inherent moral implications (eg. CTE).

mikejuntMember
2 years ago
Reply to  omar207

No, you’re missing the point. There are other things that can be done to mitigate the offensive environment changes, and they need to be done in concert with this in order to keep the game where they want it.

For instance, they may need to do things like deaden the ball, raise the seams on the ball slightly, or remove the shift restrictions intended to free up BABIP, etc

Simply making pitchers less effective (in order to preserve them) comes with increased offense. Therefore, teams and players won’t do that because its to their disadvantage. They lack the tools to mitigate the offensive rise.

The league, however, has access to those tools. So they need to use them in concert with the policy changes aimed at health to keep the game in the run environment they want. Then they can make pitchers do somewhat less effective things, while counting on them to still get the same outcomes because some other factors are working against the hitters in exchange.

It also has to be understood that these changes would take time to play out. The velocity changes have taken years because while teams figured out that this was better a decade or more ago, in order to fully see the change at the MLB level, players needed to be fully developed from the junior levels with this set of goals. From high school and college to international signings to minor league development, pitchers have been focused on this kind of pitching for years. It took 2017 for Justin Verlander to accept it, but Justin Verlander was an established and highly successful player. Those guys tend to be *late adopters*. This trend existed for guys younger than Verlander even earlier, circa 2011-2012.

So it will probably take a whole new crop of arms to completely see the changes in effect. And the league will need to slowly implement the offensive tweaks as that process plays out, expecting league average velocity to decline as the max-effort guys are phased out in exchange for the next generation of pitchers who trained to different targets. Some of the best will adapt (like Verlander), but many will not.

Last edited 2 years ago by mikejunt
dl80Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Making the strike zone smaller is another easy change that would encourage more command and less velocity, while also helping hitters

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Wouldn’t a smaller strike zone mean more emphasis on velocity? Unless the zone was two feet away from the plate or something? If anything a giant strike zone would incentivize hitting the parts of it where hitters couldn’t reach the ball

mikejuntMember
2 years ago
Reply to  dl80

This idea is actively bad in that the problem with pushing max-effort guys out is going to be *increased offense*, you don’t want to help hitters more than they’re going to get from that, and you will need to help pitchers to compensate.

sirsurhoff
2 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

I can’t decide whether this is parody or if it’s serious.

mikejuntMember
2 years ago
Reply to  sirsurhoff

This is so deeply nested I can’t really tell which thing you’re replying to, but, yeah, I am serious that the only solutions to this problem exist at the league level, and that reducing leaguewide max-effort pitching will generally make pitchers less effective, and therefore offensive levels will rise if that happens. Teams seek guys who throw hard, and guys train to throw hard, because the data unequivocally points to the reality that velocity and movement are the most reliable ways to get guys out and limit runs most effectively in MLB. They will keep doing this as long as there’s anywhere close to enough arms that throw that hard, because it serves both the team (winning) and the player (getting and staying in the majors) goals most effectively.

If you want to get a change, you have to implement rules that change the incentives so that guys who pitch differently are desired by teams. This won’t be because their per-inning effectiveness is better, because strikeouts are better at that. It will be because they simply can’t cover all the innings they have to cover with the max effort guys and their injury rates.

And even then it will require a long period, just like the velocity build has required a long period, before that change has fully taken place. It will mostly happen as league personnel turn over, just like the velocity rise did. Teams have been prioritizing velocity for a decade or more now, and to the exclusion of soft-tossing control dudes for most of that period. If you want those kinds of innings-eating pitchers back, you have to make it so they have something teams want. The only thing they can offer is raw innings.

And if that happens, per-inning effectiveness will drop, and run scoring will rise. If it rises too far, MLB will need to intervene.

Guys like Kyle Hendricks are super duper rare in modern MLB because you need to be really exceptional at that skillse to succeed with it at all, and then you’re walking a razor’s edge and at the first loss of a little bit of anything you will fall off a cliff. Hitters are just too good at high velocity, and too prepared for it, so they really punish the stuff that’s noticably slower than that. They have had to race to keep up, and it means the average hitter is way better vs 92-93 than he used to be, which you can see by how big the leaguewide gap in outcomes is on pitches in certain velocity bands. MLB is full of hitters who have been selected by competitive pressure and their teams to be capable of handling velocity over many other traits (including contact ability, selectivity, plate discipline, etc), because the velocity is so prevalent. Guys who are helpless against 97+ are not in the league. This makes succeeding in the low 90s much, much harder unless your other skills are truly elite.

In general MLB does an awful job of understanding how the incentives they offer impact the behavior of players and teams. They change rules and other elements of the game without accounting for how the other actors (both teams and players individually) will respond to those changed incentives, and it has consistently lead them to see outcomes they didn’t intend. They have shown marginally more understanding with the pitch clock and the base size changes, so maybe there’s hope they’re starting to get this.

They can’t simply make flat rules. Teams and players will still try and find ways around them to get to the things that serve their interests the best. If they want sustained behavioral change, they need to *change the incentives*. Sometimes this is very hard to do, but roster rules are relatively easy to manipulate, so it’s an area where they can really do that.

It’s much harder on the playing field, such as how the attempts to eradicate the shift have simply resulted in teams getting mostly the same outcome by playing 2B or SS one step off of straight up the middle, allowing them to still get most of the benefits of the defensive shift even though it ‘outlawed’. In comparison, roster construction rules are easy to manipulate, and they have quite direct impact over the traits teams seek out when building their rosters, and teams are quite adaptable in changing their approaches.

dl80Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

What if pitchers who have TJ (or any arm related injury longer than 60 days) can’t be placed on the 60 day IL and must stay on the 40-man for at least 12 months?

That disincentivizes signing or drafting hard throwing pitchers, running then into the ground, and doesn’t change the rules or historical stats of the game.

Teams would work harder to keep pitchers healthy because staying on the 40 man impacts roster flexibility and will cost them prospects in the Rule 5 draft.

I know this would need serious revision, but the overall idea might work.

Last edited 2 years ago by dl80
HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Injuries correlate strongly enough with increased velocity that everyone involved is pretty sure there’s a connection. But it’s not direct enough that you can penalize teams (or players) for injuries. No one would be in favor of such a proposal.

mikejuntMember
2 years ago
Reply to  dl80

My personal opinion is that A: for HFB’s reasons below your idea is bad and B: the main way that MLB should accomplish this is by restricting pitcher counts and the minor league pitcher exchange so extensively that having pitchers who reliably pitch 6-7 innings is extremely valuable, and having 5 inning starters is an enormous problem for your organization.

I’d also roll back to the ghost runner rule, as the freedom from long extra inning games also helps free teams from having to carry a ‘long man’ on their pitching staff.

Basically, I think what you do is structure the rules such that the incentives for teams no longer allow them to exclusively focus on max effort, short-outing pitchers who often go no more than 18 batters. As these pitchers become more common, and it becomes problematic to have a lot of them but have them injured all the time, teams will select for other traits, and then as those less effective-per-batter but more-effective-per-roster-slot pitchers enter the league, the league can slowly slide other sliders up to compensate for the offensive bump.

Poppyseed BagelsMember since 2021
2 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Why not just make the ball softer? Would devalue strikeouts and value balls in play more.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago

A soft ball moves more but moves slower. You might still get strikeouts by sweepers that start outside the batters box and end up outside the other batters box

mikejuntMember
2 years ago

It doesn’t? Strikeouts are good for pitchers because balls in play are randomness. Even poorly hit balls result in guys reaching base some percentage of the time. Yes, bloops and flares and things have lower BABIPs than mashed line drives, but they also still have significantly higher OBPs than “guy struck out”. Because pitchers don’t control where the ball is hit, or whether their defenders make plays, strikeouts are more reliable for pitcher performance.

Reducing slugging won’t change this. It may mute the gap a little bit (less than you think because there’s a very high BABIP zone of weak balls hit just over the infield where no one has a play on them), but it doesn’t change the reality that the best thing pitchers can do is not allow the ball to be hit at all in the first place.

It may have secondary effects to reduce offense that arises from other things pushing pitchers away from max effort/velo/movement all the time, but it doesn’t help cause that to happen itself. The only way you will get teams away from what is *objectively the best way to retire hitters* is to make it logistically impossible to have enough of those pitchers available for all their games due to limitations on roster sizes and ability to add/remove guys from the roster when they’re not available. You will never change the reality that in baseball, it’s better to strike out the opponent than let him put the ball in play. It is not a possible thing you can do. It is a fundamental fact of the game.

The only thing you can do is make it punitively difficult for teams to build their entire staffs around that reality by making it impossible for them to cover a full season’s worth of innings with those kinds of pitchers. They will have to be forced, by the demands of playing 9 innings every day, to make a sub-optimal per-inning decision in favor of a inning-eating decision. If you change the roster rules for pitchers enough, you can probably do this. Then teams will also select and develop and seek out the best of those guys who can absorb the innings, because they will need them. They used to do that because they thought they needed them (in some cases in correctly), but they have since solved the problem by learning how to manipulate rosters and how to keep a zillion hard-throwing, interchangable dudes in the minors they can infinitely promote and demote in order to meet their daily needs.

If that solution stops working, they’ll be stuck needing to roster the kinds of pitchers they have basically stopped rostering now – the ones who are less effective per inning but pitch more raw innings.

That’s the only thing that will actually work. Teams are not going to do things that don’t maximize their chances of winning, and particularly of winning championships, which means winning enough regular season games to get a chance. To change their behavior, you have to change the rules they operate under so that optimization draws them towards what you want them to do.

This is why this cannot happen at an organizational level and teams that try to do it in some way (see: Cardinals) fail.

A Salty ScientistMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yup. I had the first thought with Strasburg and Liriano. Arms just aren’t meant to make baseballs move in those ways.

deuce26
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Who would have known that training with weighted balls to increase velo and spin would have consequences?

GravesmasterMember since 2025
2 years ago
Reply to  dbannon

Agree that this doesn’t fully address the issue, but I do think that many pitchers would need to adjust. Take Eury Perez.

In 2023, he pitched 91.1 IP. He threw 697 fastballs averaging 98 MPH. Let’s assume all of those were 95+. At that rate, he averages about 7.5 penalties per inning. At that rate, he would have accrued enough penalties over 53 innings to hit the cap. So even though he’s never thrown close to 180 IP, he would have easily hit the cap last year.

Pivetta would have maxed out at about 88 IP in 2023.

Loaisiga would have passed the cap by 6 innings in 2022 (he pitched 48).

Gott, Bieber and Gray wouldn’t have hit the cap because they don’t throw 95+ enough.

Definitely wouldn’t solve the issue completely but I think the tax would shift tendencies for high velo pitchers even if they’re not hitting 180 IP. There might need to be a different rule for relievers too, but it can still have an impact.

Thatguy47
2 years ago
Reply to  dbannon

Also it probably incentivizes a heavier reliance on breaking pitches which is even worse for pitcher health.

kingharbaughMember since 2021
2 years ago
Reply to  dbannon

Marco Gonzales tops out at 91 and has spent most of the last two seasons on the shelf with elbow issues.

Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago
Reply to  dbannon

an even more relevant example would be the numerous position players who have had to have TJ surgery. Bryce Harper needed it and he probably throws max effort like 3 times a week.

ascheffMember since 2017
2 years ago

Just FYI the third and fourth paragraphs repeat each other verbatim (though the fourth one has the hyperlinks). I thought I was losing my mind for a second.

SteveMcAnderson
2 years ago

Wow, is this a horrible idea.

tomerafan
2 years ago

This is really well written, but I disagree with the proposal.

It seems to me there’s a simpler way to impact two problems at once – those problems being pitcher arm injuries, and the three true outcomes style of play that seems to dominate the sport. The target should be to reduce the value of strikeouts and encourage more balls in play.

JoePos had a great piece this week on Greg Maddux, and how Maddux didn’t care about strikeouts or no-hitters. He viewed his goal as getting 27 outs, and he didn’t mind giving up hits or walks to certain batters if it meant getting an easier out elsewhere. He also viewed strikeouts as potentially being wasted pitches; his ideal was a 3-pitch inning, not a 9-pitch “immaculate” inning.

The radical change would be to change the number of strikes required for a strikeout. This would be controversial and may not be possible (MLBPA).

The easier way would be to change the incentives. It starts with front offices realizing that they have a financial incentive to keep pitchers healthy (since the human incentives don’t seem to be doing the trick). Spin rate and velo are important, but pitcher *efficiency* with those tools is more important than the tools themselves. Teams and statheads should track efficiency rather than innings and award incentives that might statistically portend longevity rather than shooting stars.

To get there, MLB and the MLBPA need to adjust the rules on roster construction, pitcher usage, and bullpen shuttling. The minors-to-majors reliever shuttle has as much impact on pitching strategy as anything else in the game right now; burning out your bullpen (and asking everyone to throw max velo and spin) would seem to be easier when bullpen arms are fungible and ride the shuttle. Change the rule so that optioned pitchers must remain in the minors for 30 days instead of 15. Or, restrict the number of options per year rather than letting options in the first three (sometimes four) years be unlimited. This would also restore more veteran pitchers to MLB jobs that are currently on the short-end of the stick compared to optionable youngsters.

Bring in the DH penalty for removing the SP. This one is a no-brainer. Make longevity matter more.

But overall, find incentives for pitchers to last longer in games, and in the majors, which will require them to dial back the spin and velo a bit and allow more balls in play, in a way where there are incentives for player and team to do so.

hebrewMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

I firmly believe that prime Greg Maddux would get absolutely torched regularly if he was a pitcher in 2024

tomerafan
2 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

I don’t see it. I think he’d throw 1-2mph faster just through natural additional body strength in pro athletes over time, but would otherwise remain the wizard of location and largely getting the results off the bat that he desired. And I say that grudgingly as a Mets fan.

hebrewMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

he got an awful lot of help from umpires and a strike zone that doesn’t really exist outside of CB Buckner

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

Agree that if Greg Maddux circa 1990 was magically transported to today and tried to pitch like he pitched then, yes, he wouldn’t be as good (I won’t go as far as torched, but he wouldn’t be as good). But Greg Maddux coming up today wouldn’t pitch the same as the Maddux that came up in the 1980’s – he;d have trained differently growing up and would almost certainly be throwing harder. (I’ve also read that young Maddux wasn’t THAT much of a soft-tosser and was more like 92-93 than the mid-80’s guy he was by the time we got published velo readings in the 2000’s and 92-93 would play today, just not as well as then).

I’ve long thought the same is true of players of yesteryear and today. Hank Aaron as he existed in 1954 probably wouldn’t be a great player today but if he came up today, he wouldn’t be the same player he was in 1954 either with training and weights and everything.

hebrewMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

this is a very good point. My thought was “transport 1992 maddux to today’s game” but you’re definitely right.

mgwalker
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

For one thing, he (and especially Glavine) could no longer live six inches off the plate.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

If living 6 inches off the plate keeps pitchers healthy they could widen the plate by 6 inches

hebrewMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

it probably would!

elisbedwynn
2 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

I think people vastly overestimate how quickly the quality of the average player improves over time. It does improve, but Maddux was still an effective pitcher when he retired in 2008. We still have players from that time in the league.

hebrewMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  elisbedwynn

238 players made their debut in 2008 and only 2 of them are still active – Jesse Chavez and Charlie Morton.

elisbedwynn
2 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

The point is, if average quality has improved as much as you’re suggesting, Jesse Chavez and Charlie Morton (not to mention Votto, Greinke, and Kershaw) should have been carving up the league like Barry Bonds or peak Pedro when they debuted.

hebrewMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  elisbedwynn

nobody is saying that Greg Maddux is BAD. He’s certainly better than Jesse Chavez and Charlie Morton.

Also, Morton is basically a different pitcher now than when he was called up, because he had to adjust to the new offensive environment, which is kind of my point.

youppi4pm
2 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

You didn’t challenge the actual point and haven’t nitpicked in a way that proves any part of the comment wrong.

0/10 troll job

dl80Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  elisbedwynn

Uh, barely

A Salty ScientistMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  hebrew

C’mon. Guys like Webb, Nola, Gallen (just off the top of my head), not to mention Hendricks a few years ago were just fine. Maddux threw low 90’s in his prime with plus plus movement on his 2-seamer and changeup to go along with plus plus command. He also had an ERA+ of 126 from age 31 on, which coincided with the ‘steroid’ era, so it’s not like homeruns per game were that much lower than now.

elisbedwynn
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

These are pretty good ideas. Rather than changing a strikeout to 4 pitches, I think shrinking the strike zone would have approximately the same effect, maybe from the navel to the top of the knee caps.

kingharbaughMember since 2021
2 years ago
Reply to  elisbedwynn

Then make everyone wear belly shirts so we can see the navel.

nattybros
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Couldn’t you also address the pitcher problem and 3 true outcomes by deadening the ball? If the ball doesn’t go as far that incentivizes players to adjust the launch angle to a more line drive heavy approach and likely prioritize batting for average. Conversely the dead balls would incentivize pitchers to pitch to more contact since they don’t have as high of a HR risk. The only issue I see is that fans may not like the decrease in offense as a result of this change.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  nattybros

They already made the ball bouncier to make offense higher! This is why there is no way to fix all of MLB’s issues. When you fix one, you make another worse.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

A bouncier ball increases distance, and values TTO more

Baller McCheese (burner account)Member since 2021
2 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Reducing the number of strikes needed for a strikeout is super interesting but doesn’t feel fair to hitters. I think reducing the number of balls for a walk would achieve the same goal more effectively.

HowBoutDemOsMember since 2019
2 years ago

He’s thinking of increasing it, not decreasing it. That would lead to more offense and incentivize pitchers to seek weak contact over strikeouts. Decreasing the pitches needed for a strikeout would be completely insane (neither will happen of course). There’d be zero offense and pitchers would have every incentive to throw as hard as possible on every pitch.

bvsicaMember since 2019
2 years ago

This idea, while grounded in research, feels pretty hard to actually implement on a day to day basis and then creates all sorts of unintended consequences around roster movements. How about something a lot simpler? 5 games per week, beginning Friday and ending Tuesday, and each starter can only pitch once per week and must take at least six days off between starts (in case some teams want to get creative). It allows for increased arm recovery time and turns games/series into events instead of a continuous blob. It may help increase the average number of pitches to TJ surgery while simultaneously offering most pitchers less opportunity to throw that number of pitches in the first place.

jamesnewburgMember since 2024
2 years ago

Placing a greater priority on command introduces more random variation because command is simply less repeatable than velocity. There’s plenty of randomness in baseball; we don’t need more.

sho04Member since 2019
2 years ago

Seems like missing to forest for the trees… The goal is keeping great pitchers healthy so they can perform… But this solution is taking away their ability to display their greatness in an unbridled way…

Well, maybe this would help Strider pitch a whole season… Except it would be Strider sitting at 93 mph (which isn’t the same) or converting to a multi inning reliever.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago

Even if we take as a given that this would be effective at reducing the likelihood of injury, I’m not sure that it would lead to the return of the 7-inning starter.

Starters would almost assuredly see their starts shortened early in the season. The last thing any team even dreaming about contention wants is for their starters to run out of innings in September. For non-contenders, a good pitcher with available innings on his arm would be a valuable trade chip come the deadline. I’d bet that few starters with real velocity would go deep in a game until at least the All Star Break.

Mostly I think it would lead to a rise in multi-inning relievers. There’s an enormous gulf between the 60-or-so innings that good relievers typically throw in a season and the 180 you’re capping starters at, and that’s what teams would look to exploit. They’d stretch out a few SIRPs or perhaps designated a few 6th SP types to become long men. They would probably put these guys on a regular schedule, just like starters, so as to mitigate the risk of a reliever’s current irregular workload.

Like a thousand other ideas, I just don’t think that you can regular velocity by regulating things other than velocity.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago

“I think even from when I was in high school the mentality around that, from like 2011 and onward, was very much like just throw really hard. You’ll get more scouts.” Even if pitchers had concerns about the health of their arm, those thoughts were swept to the side because, as Glasnow recalled, “The goal of all this is to get to the big leagues and you can figure out all the other stuff later.”

Yep. By the time a pitcher is in MLB he’s got so many hard miles on his arm that it’s almost a crapshoot as to whether anything MLB tries to institute as a control will even make a difference. This isn’t to say that they shouldn’t try. Just that there is unlikely to be a magic bullet.

markakis21
2 years ago

This is one of the best written, most well thought out, terrible ideas ever.

hazelrah
2 years ago
Reply to  markakis21

Ya, needs to be simpler. Roster and option limits

ice_hawk10
2 years ago

Shrink the strikezone, making it more costly for max-effort-stuff-over-command types to operate. Sounds like the automated strikezone might do that all on it’s own.

nattybros
2 years ago
Reply to  ice_hawk10

Also why be a control type who can consistently paint the edge of the plate if you are only getting that pitch called 75% of the time. As a control pitcher you can execute perfectly and not get the call whereas a pitcher who has great stuff can work middle of the plate and not worry about the umpire missing the call (Angel Hernandez excluded)

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  ice_hawk10

Or grow the strike zone creating parts of it where an 85 mph fastball is hard to hit

Spahn_and_Sain
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Doesn’t make a 95 mph fastball in the same spot easier to hit though.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Spahn_and_Sain

No but the priority will be to hit the unhittable spot consistently. 95 is better I guess but not at the expense of hitting the spot.

PaulMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  ice_hawk10

This is the exact opposite of what is needed. The problem is that offenses are so good that it is VERY hard to get guys out throwing 91. If you want to incentivize economical pitching, you need to expand the strike zone so guys can dot the corners with less velocity and make it very difficult to hit. We need to help guys with plus location and lower velocity… pitchers like Mikolas, Hendriks, Merrill Kelly, Miley, Rea, Martin Perez, etc.

jts19Member since 2020
2 years ago

Amazing article. Excellent work!

broeygallo
2 years ago

Pitchers are simply going to keep flying too close to the sun. There are only so many of these jobs and tens to hundreds of thousands of amateur players. When velocity is analytically proven to be the number one variable correlated to success in the job, this is reality. Simple as that.

Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago
Reply to  broeygallo

Exactly. When the incentive to throw hard is literally hundreds of millions of dollars, no one is going to care about anything you do to try and stop it.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
2 years ago

Disincentive to be injured needs to be done on the contract side, not within the game itself. Nowadays teams have insurance so from a financial perspective there is no incentive for anybody in the sport to consider changes. If actually winning games mattered more than it does to these organizations then this would be a much bigger problem than the fans wish it was. MLB is structured in such a way that winning is secondary to making money. Fans need to endorse change with their wallets and until that happens the trends will remain.

Anon21Member since 2018
2 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

Nowadays teams have insurance so from a financial perspective there is no incentive for anybody in the sport to consider changes.

No, this isn’t true. Teams back in maybe the 80s started purchasing injury insurance. Insurance companies wrote the policies without any idea of the injury risks of baseball players and took a beating. The insurance industry adjusted, and now offers insurance on pitcher contracts at rates that accurately account for the very high risk of pitcher injuries–meaning the policies are so expensive that teams don’t bother to buy them.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

Pro sports is, has always been, and always will be structured in such a way that winning is secondary to making money. Fans have moaned and groaned about it since the dawn of time, and continue spend their money anyway.

nattybros
2 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

Baseball is worse because there isn’t a salary floor like every other sport so the owners are incentivized to milk the franchise for all it’s worth since they are allowed to cut expenses and the lower revenue sharing in MLB let’s that owner keep more of those savings in his pocket.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  nattybros

/shrug.

The connection between your rant and the demise of the true starting pitcher is tenuous at best. In fact, it’s probably backwards. If ownership spent more money and attempted to win it all costs, they would be signing pictures to megabucks short-term deals, throwing their best pitchers out there for as long as they could, and throwing them out when their arms exploded

nattybros
2 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

Owners would be more focused on winning if they didn’t have the financial incentive to do everything as cheap as possible. Furthermore in a floor/cap system we would likely see more emphasis on keeping the starting pitchers healthy as the deadcap hit of pitcher injury would hamstring a competitive team more than it does now where you can just sign nearly endless pitchers to throw max effort.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  nattybros

I’d bet not. No one KNOWS how to keep starting pitchers both (a) healthy and (b) effective. Right know the best guess everyone works with is pitch counts. Start applying a hard-cap penalty and, absent any solid answers, you’ll just see teams look more to avoid risk. Even shorter outings. Fewer mega-contracts. More emphasis on getting the most good pitches out of guys while they’re young, healthy, and cheap.

The moral panic re:Starting Pitching is an issue for the fans and the pundit class. Not for front offices. They’re figuring out how to win ball games just fine. Said panic will have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on how teams run their organizations, until and if it starts to affect their bottom lines.

kingharbaughMember since 2021
2 years ago
Reply to  nattybros

We can look to the NFL and see what a cap would do to pitchers. Like RBs, who are often hurt due to the nature of their job, they would simply see their salaries reduced and get replaced by younger players on rookie deals.

sogoodlooking
2 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

On the other hand, what about disallowing insurance by teams on pitchers?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

The unintended consequences with this would be phenomenal. Teams will stockpile guys who throw 100 because that makes going over the 95 limit “worth it.” Lots of pitchers going to get knocked out early due to the innings cap or hurt, so teams will just straight run out of pitchers, especially if you can’t replace them with guys in the minors. Bullpen games will become a lot more common. Pitchers will stop throwing fastballs and start throwing cutters instead, maybe multiple varieties of breaking balls. Teams will start to stock knuckleballers again to fill the innings gaps left by the others. And on top of that, I’m not at all certain it’s going to work–I mean, it will work to some extent simply because most players will be throwing less, but on a pitch-by-pitch basis it’s not at all obvious it will reduce injury risk. It might, but it might not.

filter2Member since 2019
2 years ago

Just thought of this and can’t decide if it’s a good idea or not, but what if MLB reduced the number of balls for a walk from 4 to 3? It would put more emphasis on command while also disincentivizing waste pitches or big breakers aiming for chase. Make a pitcher live in the zone more by increasing the punishment of lack of command.

I feel like there is almost no chance of this happening though as Baseball is extremely hesitant to change something as fundamental as the count.

wokegraphs3
2 years ago

No more rule changes from MLB. Leave this to the pitchers and the sports medicine staff on the teams themselves to figure out. There’s already incentive there to do so.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs3

I’m mostly in this camp. If they’re going to come out with a proposal to fix this, it better be a whole lot more certain in its effects than something like this.

tomerafan
2 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs3

I’m not in favor of in-game rule changes outside of the DH penalty coming into play (e.g. losing your DH when you yank the SP, or at the second pitching change/third pitcher). But I think rule changes on roster structure, minor league option-length, etc. outside of the field of play would be really helpful.

nattybros
2 years ago
Reply to  wokegraphs3

I don’t see the pitchers figuring it out because a lot pitchers in the league can’t give less than 100% and be better than the AAA guys. Pitchers will continue to go max effort because they make $750,000 on IL and $35,000 in AAA.

sirsurhoff
2 years ago
Reply to  nattybros

I think its fair to say that if left alone by way of no rule changes, this situation will absolutely change in some meaningful way in 10 to 20 years, if not sooner. I have no idea how, but I don’t have to. Someone, somewhere, will find a competitive advantage by changing something.

OddBall Herrera
2 years ago

Personally I’m an “organic solutions” guy rather than a rules guy. If a consensus develops on what causes increased risk for TJS, and what can be done to avoid it, teams very quickly will start prioritizing pitchers who have traits that lessen their chances at being useless for multiple years at a time. Losing your pitchers to TJS has a very real cost, and pitchers who are capable of avoiding it a very real benefit. Sounds like the perfect environment for letting the market sort itself out. For example if the issue is velocity and pitch types, rolling the dice on max effort guys and just hoping you ended up with a physical freak with elastic tendons vs teaching guys to pitch seems deeply inefficient, and if it’s wasting money and costing wins teams will find a way to adjust.

Alternately, if there is no consensus on what’s causing it, why are we even talking about solutions?

Last edited 2 years ago by OddBall Herrera
HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago

Teams are already doing this as best they can. The problem is that their solutions (pitch counts mostly) are inducing a moral panic in some segments of the fan base.

elisbedwynn
2 years ago

Velocity and spin rate seem to be the easiest and most repeatable way to improve a pitcher’s effectiveness. But it’s also the most volatile. There are a few things I think could be implemented to help mitigate the problem, but this does seem like something that will require years of organic correction, as you say

jfree
2 years ago

Lindbergh’s suggestion is the one that will work at the MLB level. Limit pitching roster. Maybe a three pitcher limit for the first nine innings of a game. Similar to soccer – limit the possible substitutions via a pregame lineup. It would incentivize starters to go further into games, relievers to think about once through the order rather than 20 pitches and out and kick managers out of their micromanagement of the bullpen.

That could also kind of work at the kids level because the games are already less than nine innings.

At core it restores the pitcher role as part of the team for a GAME. Not just a contractor to throw pitches. And yes that might involve a different kind of strategy where pitchers can mix and match a bit and come into and out of the game at different times.

Last edited 2 years ago by jfree
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  jfree

As long as more pitchers can be used if the game is out of hand either way

jfree
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

I can see an easy way for that to happen – as long as it is the starter or long relief type being subbed out of the game. Any pitcher taken off that pre-game list of three for a replacement is deemed ‘overworked’ or ‘injured’ or ‘administratively ineligible’ or somesuch for the remainder of that series between those two teams (and maybe the following series). IOW – no issue at all for the needed days of rest between appearances for a starter/long pitcher. But an effective penalty for loogy and 1 IP types who are getting yanked around by a micromanaging coach/’specialist’.

Plus – it restores one of the quotes I used to hear about Jack Morris (the last of the ‘complete game’ pitchers with 175 in his career). It was said that his real value was that when he pitched, the bullpen was ale to get a day off. That matters in a long season.

Last edited 2 years ago by jfree
Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  jfree

That works. I’m thinking more about letting a position player pitch if the first three guys give up 15 runs or something.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago

Have to agree with the earlier poster – what horrible suggestions. And I say that as someone who acknowledges all of the problems with pitchers blowing out their arms. But you are talking about fundamentally changing the game in ways that are far more severe than the ghost runner or the pitch clock. Pitchers know the risk and so do teams and they separately can choose whether to chase velo or not.

I also have an issue with the whole idea of preserving the traditional starter. There is nothing to suggest that we should have to have one guy go out there and pitch 6 or 7 innings every time (& guys from 50 years ago would laugh at that notion since they were expected to go out there and go the distance. Of course, the game was dramatically different then but that’s a separate conversation). One of your rules was set forth with the idea of preventing teams from running out a bunch of 3 inning relievers. Why? Why is it important that we have a starter that throws more than half the game? Maybe the best roster construction is to have 9 guys that each throw 3 innings every 3rd day with a few fill-in guys for those times when someone gets lit up or throws an excessive number of pitches. Or maybe, as Bill James once suggested, the optimal rotation is 4 guys who each throw either 5 IP or 75 pitches, whichever comes 1st (which has actually been tried twice that I know of – one unsuccessfully with the Rockies because the pitchers were no good and once with the mid-90’s A’s because the pitchers revolted and Tony LaRussa gave up on it).

The fact is, one guy might have an arm that can throw 100 for 110 pitches and 200 IP in a year and another might have an arm that will snap the instant he throw 95. Skenes threw 100 mph for LSU last year and threw 120 IP in a smidge over 4 months (Feb 17th to June 22nd) and he was fine. There are always going to be guys that will be horses and guys that won’t. The hard part is figuring out who is a horse without blowing out their arm.

No, what we’re headed to IMO is either 6 or even 7 man rotations or shorter and shorter starts from 5 man rotations which is heading closer to the solutions mentioned above like 3 inning limits or even lower pitch counts while still allowing the guys that can throw 100 pitches and 200 IP to do their thing.

The rules you’re suggesting are well-meant, but bad solutions

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

People like the romantic notion of a sports hero. A single pitcher who stands on the mound for 9 innings is, potentially, that hero. A parade of relievers who contribute meaningful but incomplete pieces are not.

jfree
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

guys from 50 years ago would laugh at that notion since they were expected to go out there and go the distance

They didn’t do that because of some Four Yorkshiremen expectation that the yoots of today just aren’t like we oldsters who were expected to walk uphill to school both ways – in a blizzard – because we were tough back then and kids today aren’t.

The player rosters were limited back then. Just a random example – 1950 Philadelphia Phillies – 10 pitchers carried virtually the entire pitching load for the season. Only one was the ‘workhorse’ – 40 games – 39 of which were starts and 21 were CG’s – 300 IP – at age 23 too (though that was the finesse pitcher era because of WW2 not a power pitcher era). One was the standard finisher/closer then – 74 appearances, 62 finishes, 22 saves, 150 IP. The other eight pitchers were just pitchers who did whatever needed doing, who were given rest between appearances. Seven of them mostly carried a ‘starting pitcher’ type workload for the year (roughly 4+ IP per appearance). Three carried an RP type workload (2 IP or less) – two of whom were older and didn’t play many games/innings at all.

jfree
2 years ago
Reply to  jfree

As an aside – that 1950 roster hints at the changes that have resulted in pitcher injuries. There were no job opportunities back then for a 20 pitch per appearance pitcher at the MLB level. No kid therefore who could dream of someday harnessing that one pitch that gets oohs and aahs and everyone out. Gotta get the second and third pitch in the repertoire. So less emphasis on velocity and more emphasis on repertoire.

Now – only velocity matters and most MLB pitching job opportunities are 1 IP jobs.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  jfree

Agree. I posted something similar in another comment section about the 1975 NL. The most extreme example was the 1975 Dodgers. They had 14 pitchers but 8 of them threw 1,401.2 of their 1,469.2 IP that year with the other 6 contributing only 68 IP. Their entire roster for the entire year for all players, both pitchers and hitters, was only 37 guys.

Another fun one was the 1975 Reds because Sparky Anderson ain’t got no use for your pitching roles. They only had 12 pitchers but one guy only threw 2 IP and another only threw 47 IP so essentially 10 guys. Sparky had 6 starters but 4 of them made relief appearances with 3 of them making 8, 7 and 5 relief appearances. They had one guy go 125 IP out of the pen and 3 other guys go over 90 IP in relief (and one of those 3 actually started 2 games). Their entire roster for the year for all players was 29 guys. Their entire starting 8 position players (arguably one of the greatest ever) qualified for the batting title. They only had 9 bench guys for the entire year.

Different times then. . .

A Salty ScientistMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

One thing that I noticed during the COVID season was that I really liked the 7-inning double-headers after thinking I would hate ’em. I hadn’t accounted for the fact that the innings that they were getting rid of were mostly the 5th, 6th, and/or 7th innings where it was a parade of sub-par reliever slog. But with a 7 inning game, if the starter goes five, it’s setup man and then closer, and seemed aesthetically much more similar to what I think about for starting pitching at least being the bridge to the top relievers. At this point, I would rather kill 2 innings per game than see the 11th reliever ever pitch.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago

Yeah…this is really convoluted and doesn’t address the impact of spin rates.

A cleaner version would be to set two seasonal caps – one on total MPH thrown, the other on total RPM, based on the findings of MLB’s working group.

elisbedwynn
2 years ago

It’s easy to call Nolan Ryan a genetic freak and call it a day. But genetics can’t be the whole story there.

Players in the 70s threw slower on the whole, but it’s not like fireballers were unheard of. And somehow they managed to compete the majority of their games on a 4-man rotation.

I’m not saying this to wax nostalgic about some golden age I never lived through. But clearly some combination of player development and pitching philosophy has handicapped pitcher health and longevity. And with relievers taking up a greater percentage of innings pitched, the competitive advantage of relying on the bullpen has waned. I’m very interested in seeing where this issue goes over the next 10+ years.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  elisbedwynn

Pitchers of the 60’s and 70’s could coast through innings because every team pursued the archetype of the all-glove, no-hit middle infielders. Combine that with catchers (who have never been good hitters throughout most of the history of the game) and pitchers still hitting for the entire period in the NL and most of that period in the AL, and pitchers really only had to face 5 good hitters every game. Also, teams were far more willing give outs with sacrifices or XBH with hit-and-run tactics.

Just using FG’s Leaderboard at default settings, there were 116 qualified players listed as SS from 1960 to 1980 (qualified appears to be 1,000 PA). Only 10 of them posted a wRC+ of 100+.

(Quick quiz: using that FG search of SS from 1960-1980, what player had the most fWAR? Answer below)

Run it from 2000-2020 and you get 146 players with 34 of them posting a wRC+ over 100. So 25.8% more players due to the greater number of teams, but a full 240% more guys that were good hitters.

The bottom of the list is similarly enlightening; the modern crew had nobody with a wRC+ under 50 but the 60/70’s crew had 11 guys. In the most extreme example of bad hitters of that era, the Giants and Mets saw fit to give Hal Lanier 3,940 PA of a .238 wOBA that was actually 11 points worse than Bob Gibson’s and only a bit better than Don Drysdale’s. Drop the pitcher limit to 400 PA and there are 9 pitchers of that era that were better hitters than Lanier. Everybody was pursuing their Mark Belanger but none of them were anywhere near as good as Belanger (who has an argument as the greatest defensive SS ever, even better at his peak than Ozzie)

Run the numbers at 2B and even CF to a lesser extent and you’ll find much the same, though a little less extreme than SS.

A lot easier to throw 300 IP when you’re facing 4 automatic outs every time through the lineup.

Answer to the quiz: Bert Campaneris with 44.7 fWAR. There are a few guys whose careers overlapped the 50/60’s or 70/80’s who would have passed him in career WAR (Robin Yount, for example) but for that period, Campy was tops.

elisbedwynn
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

That’s all true, and very good points. I wasn’t trying to imply 70s-style pitching could or should be done in today’s game. I’m not advocating for pitchers to go out and throw 200 pitches and 300 innings. But, I do think pitchers have the potential to be more durable than they currently are, while maintaining a certain of quality. And while I’m sure the relative ease of the competition can partially explain how those workloads were maintained, I don’t think it’s the only factor, survivorship bias notwithstanding.

My main point, (or speculation anyway), was that that potential is being hindered by some combination of development and pitching philosophy. And given the diminishing returns on increased relief pitching, it’s not obvious to me that the max-effort philosophy is necessarily preferable to a more conservationist approach, like the one Verlander used to have, or pitchers of previous generations had by necessity.

A Salty ScientistMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  elisbedwynn

There’s a whole lot of survivorship bias though. We don’t don’t know fireballers who got hurt in the minors, and we don’t remember the ones who got hurt early in their careers and were quickly forgotten.

MikeSMember since 2020
2 years ago

I don’t think this works well. Since 2018 there have only been 130 pitcher-seasons over 180 IP, so about 23/year. There are only 96 over 185, so the penalty isn’t small and would probably only encourage teams to shuttle guys to AAA more.

About a quarter of those seasons were by guys with vFA < 93, so they may not have even hit the 15 pitch threshold.

badcavMember since 2025
2 years ago

If they removed the DH pitchers would have one less dangerous hitter to face, roster makeup would force teams to use more position players and pitchers would need to conserve more energy by necessity. Arbitrary rules to enforce health aren’t incentive enough to overcome wealth. This opens the door for Maddux type of pitchers to make it to the show without velocity and spin rate.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  badcav

Plus we’d get to see Ohtani at 3B

boomstickMember since 2024
2 years ago

To prevent the extinction of the starting pitcher, there need to be guardrails in place to prevent teams from converting their entire staff to three-inning nonstarters as a means of still permitting them to throw hard fairly frequently”

It is not clear why this is the preferable outcome. In decades past, this sentence would read “To prevent teams from pulling their starters in the seventh inning to use short work relief pitchers”

Baseball is fun with bullpens. Baseball will still be fun with openers and rotating short work arms in place of the hallowed starter.

AnonMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  boomstick

Excellent point – why do we need to prevent the extinction of the starting pitcher if the optimal strategy is to not have every pitcher throw 6+ IP? I’m not saying it is, but why legislate it that way? Let the players and teams figure out the optimal strategy that works for them.

viceroyMember since 2020
2 years ago

I’ve heard a surgeon claim that ligaments don’t mature until at least around 25. I think it would be in the leagues best interest to throw pretty every possible health guardrail (this proposal, the double hook DH penalty, roster limits, pitching change limits, etc) at the minor leagues from developmental ball to AAA. Then after a year they can implement those with the least disturbance to the MLB level and start analyzing the health data. At the very least, we would have to hope this would help keep young pitchers healthier and in turn maybe set them up for more sustained success at the major league level. Would also love to see an extremely thorough peer reviewed analysis of the biomechanics of injury and whether the famous red flags are true (flat arm syndrome, inverted W, excessive pronation before release), and then maybe put different innings limits on different mechanics

Jim ParksMember since 2019
2 years ago

You want to decrease pitcher injuries? No more guaranteed contracts for pitchers. Give them a financial incentive to stay healthy rather than one to destroy their arms.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  Jim Parks

First of all, hahahhahahahahha good luck.

Second of all, that is absolutely meaningless to the legions of high school arms, college pitchers s, and minor league nobodies still struggling to get that very first MLB contract.

Third of all, taking away financial motivation for pitchers to excel is only going to push more athletes off of the mound. If the only guaranteed money is in trying to hit dingers and that’s all the kids will try to do

Spahn_and_Sain
2 years ago
Reply to  Jim Parks

By any account, many of the injured players have extreme financial incentives not to be hurt under the current contract system. Take Brandon Woodruff who was about to finally hit free agency. Was that financial incentive—literally 10s of millions of dollars he’s likely lost—able to prevent injury?
No, because that’s not how the world works.

Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago
Reply to  Jim Parks

So every position except pitcher has a guaranteed contract? Sounds like a great way to get everyone to stop pitching and go play another position.

brilliant!

Tim L.Member since 2025
2 years ago

Good Read. I think the approach is correct – look at the incentives because behavior follows incentives. However, I think you can try to tinker with what I would call “micro” incentives, like roster construction, pitches above 95 mph, innings limits, but I think you’ll be chasing ghosts.

There are so many competing forces surrounding these pitchers as they develop – amateur coaches, trainers (including the Tread and Driveline folks), agents, even parents – whose financial incentives don’t align with taking care of the pitcher’s arm long term. The short term payoff to these people is significant when they sign the first pro contract, or the first extension. And there are no long term consequences – only to the player. Even in the player’s eyes, he’s likely not looking past that first contract. There’s very little chance you can alter the incentives of all of these parties.

The crux of it is that both main parties, the clubs, and players themselves are making irresponsible decisions.

I would suggest a more simple, and more “macro” solution, one thing on both sides.

First, get rid of guaranteed contracts. You need to create a strong incentive for the player to take responsibility for his own health. Knowing that he’s going to need to stay healthy over the long term to earn his contract, creates incentive to consider very carefully how to balance the known risk of throwing harder with the upside of the contract that could result with the success.I’m not 100% the details of how this works, perhaps there are only certain periods of the year that a club could extricate themselves of a contract, and only with injury, etc.

Second, create penalties (such as loss of draft picks) for clubs that terminate a certain amount of contracts due to injury. Not sure what that looks like either, but the idea is to create incentives for clubs to sign players that are less injury prone, and to not “churn” power pitchers with no regard for their arm health.

I realize that this type of system would actually create advantages for bigger market teams because they would be able to afford not to terminate contracts and eat the contract and contracts would then shift to heavy signing bonuses and these teams would be able to afford those as well. But this is the already the current state of baseball – these market inequalities need to be dealt with too. Open the books, put a hard cap and revenue sharing place, and all the rest will be easier.

I am sure there are all kinds of pretty good ideas to attack each one bad incentives out there that contribute to the problem. My idea is based on the economic principle that simpler, broader incentives are likely to work better. Not sure if these are the right ones, I am sure there are smarter folks out there that could weigh in.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim L.

Beyond being a bad idea, the players union in a million billion years would never stop laughing you out of the room if you so much as began to suggest this.

Players would not really be any more careful. It’s a classic race to the bottom. All this would do is artificially deflate compensation for players and allow owners to keep more money.

Last edited 2 years ago by TKDC
WhatLeylandNoooo
2 years ago

I like the idea of a pitcher speed limit but I don’t like it cumulative like this over the season. So maybe keep it in game? For example, a rule that no pitch can be thrown by any pitcher (starter or reliever) over 95mph through the opposing team’s first time through the batting lineup. Let the pitcher’s arm “warm up” establish good mechanics/biomechanics for nine hitters then the governor is removed when the opposing team’s leadoff hitter comes up to bat for the second time

nahMember since 2018
2 years ago

What if we challenged scouts to become better at their jobs? They are the first line of people in the “industry” who are sorting players into boxes based on velocity to the detriment of all other skills.

Players don’t get to the minor leagues by getting people out, they get there by impressing the radar guns of the scouts. Once in the minor leagues, getting people out becomes more important, but is still secondary to impressing scouts. Most players who achieve success in MLB without above-average velocity are ignored or severely undervalued by scouts, like Cortes and Imanaga. Personally, I think the velocity problem is also a symptom of the close-mindedness and ignorance of performance that scouts pride themselves on.

Last edited 2 years ago by nah
HappyFunBallMember since 2019
2 years ago
Reply to  nah

Fact that pitchers do exist who are effective at getting batters out without a certain velocity does not invalidate the clear relationship between velocity and getting people out.

There is not some vast untapped talent pool of Jamie Moyers out there who would be effective at getting Major League hitters out if only they were given a chance.

The traditional starting pitcher archetype is disappearing because it is simply not the most effective way to get 27 outs in a ball game over 162 games in a season

nahMember since 2018
2 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

How would we know, given that scouts ignore the Jamie Moyers of the world and disincentivize young pitchers from finding alternate routes to success?

omar207
2 years ago

A solid proposal.* But as a fan – a consumer of the product of professional baseball for which I pay many hundreds of dollars each year to consume – why would I support the incentivization of an inferior product that I pay so dearly to enjoy? Pitcher elbow injuries are not the moral quandary presented by CTE as in American Football (and other high-impact contact sports).

Little kids grow up wanting to pitch in the Majors; logic has it that in order to achieve those dreams there are injury risks that increase proportional to the success and athletic dominance achieved by all-star pitchers. And as indicated by the athletes quoted in this article, they’ve made it clear the risks are worth it to them. So again, in the absence of a larger moral predicament, why all the pearl-clutching and exhaustive effort to produce an inferior product? So that less physically gifted athletes could hope to improve their career longevity? I don’t get it.

*It also just occurred to me that an unforeseen outcome of this mindset, if not this exact proposal, could be that in 10 years the role of the Starting Pitcher is made a relic of MLB history: if 100 mph pitching is correlated to winning baseball, teams will still do everything they can to win; were a cap on the maximum number of such pitches is enacted, who is to say teams won’t just rotate a roster of pitchers that max out that type of pitch(?) with the team then moving onto their next Pitcher with 15 100 mph pitches available to them?

polama
2 years ago

You want to inning cap SP’s, while also stopping teams from just rotating in new arms every couple months as the fireballers cap out…how? If a team mismanages it’s pitching they just forfeit all August and September games? That seems like a pretty crucial part of this plan to elucidate, because I can see transaction tweaks helping during the year, like longer minimum minor league stints, but not a “we burned that guys IP, call up the next arm”.

Presumably pitchers switch to more breaking pitches, so the next step is an RPM limit, right? That feels super wonky to me. “Wow, a slider right at 2490 RPM! Just below the cap!”

And then you’ve got angry fans who get to see 3 IP of the team ace not throwing his best stuff, because the team will get a ton at the trade deadline for a SP with as much of his cap left as possible. And then the SP throws max-effort for 2 months at the end of the year, so I don’t think we even know how much help it is.

I appreciate the creativity, but I think this plan needs more time in the oven.

mart8207
2 years ago

My last comment was flagged as spam. Can that be restored, please?

speedlimitdriver
2 years ago

This might seem like a bit of ridiculous idea, but I think it would actually be good. Just set a speed limit – say 95 – and call the pitch a ball if the pitcher goes over the speed limit. Very simple to enforce – every stadium already shows the velocity of every pitch. Fewer pitcher injuries, fewer strikeouts, and probably fewer relief pitchers because starters will be less fatigued and the relief pitcher might not be able to throw any faster than the starter anyway. Maybe pitching innovation would change to a focus on crazy-slow changeups?

Last edited 2 years ago by speedlimitdriver
CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago

I just want nothing to do with playing time limits. No other sport that I know of does that. And I’m just cringing at the thought of a playoff race being hamstrung because we’re worrying about such and such pitcher only has a couple starts left so when should they use them.

baseballwatcherMember since 2018
2 years ago

They should also limit thinking. Some of the innovations the Rays have spearheaded are hurting baseball . Teams need to leave their minds at the door.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago

Bring back Ed Wade!

Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago

An interesting thing to consider re: workload is that we already have a test case for lower workloads already. That being the 2020 covid season. No MLB pitcher threw more than 90 innings that year. Only a couple even topped 80. Most minor leaguers didnt play at all. Yet It doesnt seem like there was any benefit to everyone basically getting an off year. Guys still blew their elbows out at the same rate in that year and the following year.

So colour me skeptical about how much limiting workloads would actually help.

catmanwayne
2 years ago

I just don’t necessarily buy the simple “throwing 95mph or harder = arm injuries” when there are soft tossers like Marco Gonzales having had TJ years ago and now he’s on his third IL stint related to his throwing arm since 2021. He averages 89.3 MPH on his fastball.

There’s more that goes into this than just velocity. How does a pitcher take care of himself/prepare in between outings? Are there genetic factors that point to some pitchers being more injury prone than others? Does a pitcher have wacky mechanics that puts extra strain on his arm? Is his pitch mix affecting him (i.e.: would cutting back a little on his fastball, slider, or splitter help)? How about his usage: is the manager leaving him in the game for too long? Is he constantly battling with traffic on the bases in tight games, forcing him to make high stress pitches? Is it simply the act of throwing a baseball dozens and dozens of times per turn that eventually catches up to him?

isavage
2 years ago

What exactly is the “problem” here that’s being solved, that everyone is trying to find a solution for? Your favorite pitcher getting hurt and being out 1.5 years sucks. But what’s the larger negative impact to the game? Offense is struggling pretty badly even with a bunch of top starters and relievers down for the count. If offense exploded and the game got ridiculous because teams were having to dig deep into the minors and bring up a bunch of inferior guys it would be one thing, but it seems more like it’s that you lose 2 relievers who throws 97 mph? You call up two more who take their place. It makes little sense to think you can or should change the game to reduce pitching injuries, which are a natural result of pitchers throwing aesthetically pleasing pitches. The number of injuries have gone up, but so has the pool of pitchers with nasty, major league caliber stuff. So what’s the problem?

rubberbandman
2 years ago

I hate to say this, but a solution to the problem is linking salary to injury. Players get 100% of their salary even if they’re on the IL for over a year. Pitchers can max out to gain a contract, knowing that max effort is not sustainable. The pitchers in the article even express this sentiment. “Make it to the big leagues and then figure it out.” It would be hard to do with the MLBPA, but until there’s some incentive to stay healthy, pitchers will continue to max out regardless of risk.

sirsurhoff
2 years ago

Why can’t we just let this issue ride? At some point something is going to give without forcing people to behave differently. It may take 10 or 20 years, but it will happen. Maybe the economics of the sport will change as to decrease the available pool of people willing to sacrifice their elbow for a contract? Maybe knuckleballers become a thing again? I have no idea, but that’s the point. Someone or some group of people will be incentivized to solve this without any force or coercion because they’ll find a competitive advantage by doing something different. Let’s drop this impulse to make a new rule every time we observe something we don’t like.

It’s like the salary cap issue, I hope I never see one in baseball, because it forces small market teams to create and innovate in ways that they might not otherwise do, if MLB had parity/mediocrity rules like the No Fun League.

The point is leave the rules alone. Let’s watch the sport evolve naturally. I guarantee you that apart from any rule changes, the game will have changed 10 years from now.

matt
2 years ago

Might be unpopular but I think going back to umpiring where a catcher having to reach across his body is just an automatic ball ( even if it’s in the zone,) and giving an inch or so off the plate if the catcher doesn’t move his glove would at least help incentivize command. I also think robo umps would be even worse for ucl injuries than what we have now.

Professor Ross Eforp
2 years ago

I appreciate that the author wants a proposal to come from actual research.

No opinion on the merits of the proposal, but let’s assume it were to happen. Here is a balancing proposal. Maybe they can also alter the ball or bats in a way that makes 95 play the way 100 does now? Or in a way that allows the pitcher to apply more spin to the ball without max effort? I do not know how to pitch, but I do know how to play golf. The harder you swing, the more the ball spins. I assume a big part of the problem is max effort AND twisting your arm in an even more unnatural way than normal.

Charlie HustleMember since 2016
2 years ago

This Dave Cone quote in the 5th paragraph says it all,  “[Pitchers are] chasing a metric. They’re chasing a mathematical equation that has data behind it that shows that this is more successful.”

Punishing behavior that doesn’t impact success rate (getting outs) is never going to work. Does a graduated income tax incentivize people to earn less? No, because they still chase the mathematical equation which leads to the largest paycheck, i.e. earning the most pretax money.

There there is a logical solution, though. Addressing the velocity variable only…all we need to do is to find a way to make less velocity more successful (at getting outs). If we do that, pitchers will throw with less velocity.

Consider that most pitchers throw multiple different pitches at multiple different velocities already. We could simply expand the strike zone for slower pitches. We’d have to implement a robo-strike zone (they say it’s coming eventually). The robo-zone would have an algorithm which expands as velocity decreases. Consider a pitcher who throws: FB/SL/CH. If an expanded zone helped his SL and CH get more called strikes, he’d get better results and throw them more often. We’ve changed the mathematical equation. The pitcher is rewarded by throwing a certain number of pitches less hard. We see pitchers make these types of adjustments all the time, as they adjust their pitch mix in pursuit of better results. Verlander changed his mentality and approach to get more outs, not for any other reason.

There are some major problems with this. If it encourages more hard sliders, are we reducing injuries? Maybe not. Is it fair to the hitters? Possibly not, but most good hitters are waiting for their pitch and they should still get pitchers to hit and mistakes often enough to succeed. The algorithm could be adjusted to produce a strike zone which maintains scoring at an acceptable level. And let’s remember, hitters are already dealing with bad calls and a strike zone which changes daily. The robo-zone, for all its faults, should at least be more consistent.

There are other things you could do with a robo-strike zone, too. For example, you could maintain a tradition strike zone until the first strike is recorded, then move to the expanded zone. At first glance that seems asinine. Think about it more, though. A hitter that knows that the robo-zone for slower pitches expands after the first strike is more liking to swing at the first pitch in the zone (before the odds move away from him). More aggressive hitters could lead to more balls in play, shorter ABs, and more action. Maybe not. Who knows?

Professor Ross Eforp
2 years ago

I love baseball, but this topic further increases my appreciation for fast-pitch softball. I can conceptualize throwing a baseball overhand at 100 MPH. Don’t get me wrong, I could barely ever throw half of that, but I can at least kind of understand how somebody with the ability can do it. I cannot conceptualize throwing a softball underhand at 70 MPH- much less making it rise (which is only possible throwing underhand).

On top of that, and more to the point, it is amazing to me how much safer the softball motion is. Our shoulders are built so much better for that, and I imagine a higher proportion of the effort comes from the hurler’s lower body.

surfdoc37
2 years ago

Kid just threw 364 pitches in two days for Mizzou’s softball team. Maybe the solution is to make pitchers throw underhand.

PaulscMember since 2018
2 years ago

Simplify, simplify, simplify! Any pitch of 100 mph or over is an automatic ball. Any pitch with a spin rate exceeding xxxx is an automatic ball. This sends a very explicit message to youth coaches. And, perhaps as fans we would see more knuckleballs – and more runs scored. Fun!

surfdoc37
2 years ago
Reply to  Paulsc

Maybe 95 mph!

Professor Ross Eforp
2 years ago

Two unrelated thoughts:

1) I wonder if the best fix lies in the training methods. It is shocking to me that medicine has not provided the answer. Trevor Bauer is a weirdo, and just one weirdo, but maybe there is merit to the way he built his arm up. Or maybe he is just an outlier. I have no clue. I am not a scientist, so I have no idea how to even begin to evaluate his hypothesis.

2) I also think there is a legitimate ethical debate to be had about where MLB teams’ moral liability lies here. As most pitchers quoted said, they basically would not trade their success for a healthy arm. The problem with the debate is that we, as a society, are terrible at finding the nuance in things. It is neither as simple as them being 100% culpable or 0% culpable.

sirsurhoff
2 years ago

Individuals weigh risk vs reward and make value judgments. What’s the debate? No one is being forced to pitch in the Majors right? Lets all sit tight and see how the sport evolves over the next decade without any additional, and needless, micromanagement.

Incidentally, if we want outs to be easier for the sake of pitchers, then they shouldn’t have banned the shift. It would have been fun to see hitting evolve over the next ten or twenty years if the shift had been left in place. Who knows what unexpected and fun outcomes were eliminated by this never ending impulse to always do something.

Professor Ross Eforp
2 years ago
Reply to  sirsurhoff

The people who are making these decisions, do not have the capacity to make them when they begin their training. A 12 year-old has zero ability to weigh the risk versus reward.

Professor Ross Eforp
2 years ago

it’s not like a person gets to the major leagues and then their arm falls apart. It’s years and years in the making.

I’m not even saying, I think baseball should act, I’m saying that there is a legitimate ethical debate to be had.

baseball owners are best served to not have their pitchers get hurt. From a strictly amoral standpoint, the question is whether they are getting back more than they give up.

Professor Ross Eforp
2 years ago

I think it is difficult to tell people, “this is how you succeed,” and then make changes that might make them unsuccessful.

The good news about this proposal is that it would be more impactful to starters and starters are less likely to be pumping it out there at 100 than relievers.

MikeD
2 years ago

First up, good and thoughtful read. So how about a “tax” on pitchers with high spin rates? I’m not seriously suggesting a tax on spin rates. I’m just not sure penalties will work. Rewards might do better.

I don’t see the high-speed fastball tax working since it’s only attempting to address one single element. All teams will do is still encourage high velocity but begin to reduce innings, but there’s no evidence that will reduce injuries. Worse, it will penalize those pitchers who can live at higher velocities. Are we purposely penalizing someone like Gerrit Cole, who lives 96-100 and consistently throws 200 innings? Paul Skenes likely will not be a fan of this as his career progresses. Nolan Ryan’s, Randy Johnson’s and Sandy Koufax’s careers would have been a fraction of what they were. Obviously, these are outliers in skills, but we’re basically going to eliminate those high-end outliers and “dumb” the game down in the process, with no guarantee of improvement.

I can see this maybe forcing teams into a six-man rotation, and/or teams taking high-velocity pitchers who could go seven and then telling them you’re only pitching every sixth day, so throw even harder for five innings. Teams and pitchers will do whatever they can to maximize effectiveness.

Back to the reward aspect. I’d rather they try and figure out a way to encourage more innings by rewarding both the teams and the players for pitchers who exceed a certain number of innings. Maybe a team with pitchers exceeding 180 innings get extra draft picks, and the players get extra money. That may force pitchers and teams to manage proactively without punishing.

I clearly don’t have the answer either. Great read. I simply don’t like the concept of penalties, especially as they’ll be implemented after pitchers have spent the prior decade from high school, through the minors, into the majors going max effort.

Last edited 2 years ago by MikeD
Chili Davis Eyes
2 years ago

Increased velocity across the league has led to three major problems: increased injury risk, starters throwing fewer innings per game, and a league batting average as low as it has been since 1968. Of these three, the pitcher injuries are of the least concern to me. If grown-ass men want to blow up their elbows throwing 103 mph all day long, well, more power to ‘em and I hope they get well soon. Meanwhile let’s just lower the mound a few more inches, limit teams to an 11-man staff, and let the laws of attrition do their work.

frugalscottMember since 2025
2 years ago

I think we miss things sometimes because we find it difficult to look beyond what seems obvious. Bob Feller, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver and others in the past didn’t have serious arm troubles or at least had long stretches of a career where they threw a ton of innings and were quite effective even though they threw quite hard. Maybe they didn’t have the high spin rates of today so that may be a place to look. One thing for sure, though, is that they had immaculate mechanics and, Seaver and Ryan especially, used their legs to generate power and take stress off of their arms.

Ryan may have been a freak of nature, but Feller and Seaver had notably lower K rates than would be acceptable today. The simple fact is that hitters were more inclined to try to put balls in play in those times. It was common to hear people talk about hitters ‘going with the pitch’ much more often than it is now. Now hitters have one swing and pitchers try to pitch to the holes in each individual swing.

Ryan and Seaver’s mechanics were designed to drive the ball down in the zone and generate ground ball contact as much as possible (though Ryan famously didn’t always put the ball where he wanted). Now pitchers want to exploit the top of the zone more and mechanics have changed accordingly and generally incorporate the legs to a lesser extent. Running used to be a huge and regular part of every pitcher’s training regimen. My understanding, from listening to people who should know, is that is no longer the case. That seems important.

If we really want to solve this problem, we need to analyze the hitters’ role in it, though I’m not sure you can really implement rules to change in any fundamental way the way hitters approach an at bat.

Another thing that we’d need to do is study individual players and/or organizations who don’t suffer any or as many catastrophic arm injuries and see what it is that they do differently. For a time, The White Sox stood out as one such organization, but that no longer seems the case so maybe they didn’t even know what they were doing right.

The bottom line is that there is a great deal of nuance to this issue and it will not lend itself to an easy solution without a great deal of study. Are there different types of UCL tears that result from different causes? Can we get back to a more ‘drop and drive’ approach to mechanics that still allows for pitching to effective spots?

I think an axiom of any sport is that you can’t play in such a way as to try to avoid injury, especially if it involves holding something back. It seems that would mean we have to either legislate how hitters approach their jobs (which seems unlikely) or figure out how to help pitchers generate their power more efficiently.

Professor Ross Eforp
2 years ago
Reply to  frugalscott

Bob Feller was pretty open about the fact he was not max effort for most of his career. I read about, “who threw the fastest pitch ever,” and there is some evidence that Feller threw it harder than anybody except maybe Ryan. I believe he was clocked at below 100, but based on where the measurement was taken and the equipment that was used it is estimated he touched 107 mph+.

I am sure you are correct about the hitters being more inclined to put the ball in play, but I would be interested to see K rates by leverage for Feller and Seaver. Did they hump it up when it was most needed? I would imagine they did.

Nolan Ryan is one of the most fascinating athletes of all time. I do not think he is the greatest pitcher of all time, but if I had a team and could pick one pitcher at the beginning of their career and get to have their entire career it would have to be him or Clemens.

PaulMember since 2020
2 years ago

Ultimately, what isn’t talked about enough is the way offensive context has changed over the last few decades. Parks have gotten more hitter friendly, and so many guys, can go yard, it leaves the pitchers with one option (for most pitchers) to get guys out, and that is throwing hard. Positions like CF, SS, and 2B, which were often manned by light hitting defensive specialists are now occupied by guys who can do serious damage. In ’78, the median SS had an OPS of around .650. The typical CF was around .700. Now, the typical SS or CF is around .750. You could throw 88 mph in that era because you weren’t going to be hurt by half of the lineup. Today, if you throw 88, the #9 hitter is going to jack one 390 feet. It isn’t that pitching mindset just changed arbitrarily…it evolved over time as a means of survival.

Many of these rule proposals are reasonably well thought out and maybe will help a few guys stay healthy, but folks just need to also be ok with the run environment changing significantly. 5-4 games are going to regularly turn into 8-7 games, and if folks want to maintain “traditional balance”, if you are going to limit pitchers, you also have to limit offense in some way (expanding parks,deadened balls, etc.)

Michael ConteMember since 2020
2 years ago

Apologies if I missed it but I don’t think the proposal mentions whether or not the cap would lift for the playoffs or not? Pretty big oversight. Because if it’s still in place, you’ll have teams incentivized to burn out their pitchers in the regular season just to get in, and then they’ll be way shittier when they can’t use their best starting pitchers, and the expanded playoffs will be even shittier than they are now. Cap lifts for the playoffs and this is arguably a feature to make October more exciting since you have pitchers who get to air it out in the most important games. (Of course I don’t know if the regular season supremacists around here care about that)

carterMember since 2020
2 years ago

I don’t think you can put the cap back on, once it’s out, it’s out. Even an incentives teams will find a way to just end up back at max effort again. I think it just is what it is at this point.

random Colorado guy
2 years ago

Is it known whether these injury trends are tracking across major leagues around the world — NPB, Australian ball, etc.? If so, is it raising concerns there, and what are they doing about it? I can well believe that with some of those leagues, the answer to the second question might be “no” and the third one “nothing,” on the grounds that historically, some of those leagues have always been willing to ride ’em hard and put ’em away wet. But not all, so is there anything to be learned from those places?