After 2021 Near-Misses, Mariners, Reds Go Different Directions With Winker Trade

The Reds and Mariners both finished just outside their respective leagues’ playoff pictures last season, but they’re heading in different directions for 2022. Less than 24 hours after trading Sonny Gray to Minnesota, Cincinnati dealt left fielder Jesse Winker and third baseman Eugenio Suárez to Seattle in exchange for a four-player package headlined by 23-year-old lefty Brandon Williamson, who recently landed at no. 61 on our Top 100 Prospects list.
Also heading from the Emerald City to the Queen City are right-hander Justin Dunn, outfielder Jake Fraley, and a player to be named later. Via The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal:
The SEA-CIN deal also includes a player to be named going back to the Reds, source tells @TheAthletic. Reds high on that player, believe it will enhance package
— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) March 14, 2022
This is an aggressive move for the Mariners, who haven’t made the playoffs since 2001 and who last year won 90 games, two fewer than the Red Sox and Yankees, the AL’s Wild Card teams. The gave up a substantial amount of young pitching in an effort to shore up an offense that scored just 4.30 runs per game, the AL’s fifth-lowest total, and managed just a 93 wRC+, tied for the fourth-lowest mark. The Reds… well, they saved some money and got some impressive, controllable pitching, but they also gave up their most impactful hitter over the past two seasons — and a prominent voice in the clubhouse — in order to dump the $35 million owed to Suárez.
Speaking of the third baseman, he had apparently just reported to the Reds’ spring training facility in Goodyear, Arizona, sporting an incredible hairstyle that brought to mind a black-and-white cookie for some, and Cruella De Vil for others:
Eugenio Suarez has arrived to Reds camp. pic.twitter.com/pvECBkV7lW
— Mark Sheldon (@m_sheldon) March 14, 2022
The 28-year-old Winker is coming off a breakout season during which he hit .305/.394/.556 with 24 homers, a 148 wRC+, and 3.4 WAR. All of those numbers were career bests, though he did slug .544 with 12 homers, a 143 wRC+ and 1.4 WAR in the pandemic-shortened 2020 season. Just over a month after starting in left field for the NL All-Star team, at a point when all three slash stats and his wRC+ ranked among the NL’s top five, he strained an intercostal muscle. While the Reds were initially hopeful that he wouldn’t miss more than 10 days, he was sidelined for over a month, then reaggravated the injury in his first game back, on September 17, and returned to the injured list for the remainder of the season.
As I noted at the time of his injury, Winker has always been a good hitter since reaching the majors in 2017, hitting for a 126 wRC+ across his first four seasons, but since the start of 2020, he’s been hitting the ball harder and elevating it with greater consistency:
| Season | GB/FB | GB% | Pull% | EV | LA | Barrel% | Hard% | AVG | xBA | SLG | xSLG | wOBA | xwOBA |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 1.24 | 42.1% | 37.1% | 90.9 | 13.6 | 5.9% | 42.2% | .299 | .272 | .431 | .448 | .366 | .363 |
| 2019 | 1.96 | 48.7% | 39.9% | 89.2 | 7.2 | 4.3% | 39.9% | .269 | .264 | .473 | .421 | .351 | .336 |
| 2020 | 1.67 | 48.1% | 46.2% | 92.1 | 10.5 | 13.5% | 49.0% | .255 | .263 | .544 | .521 | .396 | .394 |
| 2021 | 1.26 | 42.0% | 39.4% | 90.6 | 10.8 | 11.2% | 46.8% | .305 | .295 | .556 | .524 | .403 | .389 |
The progress has been uneven, but as Winker has cut down his groundball rate, his expected batting average and slugging percentage and wOBA have increased. And while his overall pull rate hasn’t changed by much save for 2020, he’s been pulling fly balls with greater frequency and greater authority, rising from 3.7% of his batted ball events in 2018–19 to 7.7% in ’20–21; where he slugged 1.053 on those balls in ’18–19, that rose to 2.086 in ’20–21. Ten of his 24 homers last season came via pulled fly balls, one more than his total from ’18 to ’20.
It does rate as some concern that Winker is moving from one of the majors’ most homer-conducive parks for lefties to one that’s more or less neutral; Great American Ballpark had a 113 park home run factor for lefties last year, compared to T-Mobile’s 96. That said, his splits have been basically level over the past two seasons, with a 146 wRC+ at home, 148 away.
Winker, who’s in his second year of arbitration eligibility, made $3.15 million last year and projects to make $6.8 million this year, according to MLB Trade Rumors’ Matt Swartz. While he’s coming off a high point in production, the same can’t be said for the 30-year-old Suárez, who in a dismal season hit .198/.286/.428 (85 wRC+) with 31 homers and 0.6 WAR; all of those numbers except the homers and slugging percentage were career worsts, even with a red-hot September (.370/.460/.808 with eight homers).
After setting career highs with 49 homers, a .572 SLG, and 4.3 WAR in 2019, Suárez hasn’t been as productive a hitter since undergoing surgery to remove loose cartilage in his right shoulder following a January 2020 swimming pool accident. He slipped to .202/.312/.470 (101 wRC+) in 2020 before bottoming out last year. As to why that’s the case, it’s tougher to discern. His 89.1-mph average exit velocity was consistent with his previous two seasons, and his 15.0% barrel rate was a career high. His chase rate, swinging-strike rate, and strikeout rate have all been consistent over the past three seasons. But while he’s been pulling the ball more often in that stretch than before and hitting fewer grounders than ever, his results on pulled grounders have been awful: he hit .132, slugged .154 and produced a -33 wRC+ in 91 pulled grounders, where the average major leaguer hit .177, slugged .207, and produced a -1 wRC+ on such balls. Those balls accounted for 26.8% of all of his batted balls. By comparison, in 2019, he hit .221, slugged .279, and produced a 20 wRC+ in a similar slice in 2019.
Rather than re-signing 2020 starter Freddy Galvis or adding another free agent, the Reds moved Suárez over to shortstop for the first month of last season, which probably didn’t help his cause. Though he played the position regularly in his first two years in the majors (2014–15), he was no longer capable of doing so, and the metrics (-6 DRS, -10 OAA in just 285.1 innings) were brutal in an experiment that more or less coincided with his .130/.229/.304 (40 wRC+) performance in April. He was significantly better the rest of the way (.213/.299/.455, 95 wRC+), if not actually good. With a more typical performance from him, better luck in the injury department from Winker, and an actual shortstop in tow, the 83-win Reds might have been more serious challengers for the second NL Wild Card berth.
Suárez is signed through 2024 at $11 million per year with a $2 million buyout on a $15 million club option for 2025; the Mariners absorbed all of that money. General manager Jerry Dipoto said on Monday that Suárez would be the team’s regular third baseman, which leaves him filling the shoes of the retired Kyle Seager. Winker will play left field against righties and some lefties in an outfield that will also include Jarred Kelenic in center field and Mitch Haniger in right. How they’ll all fit together if Kyle Lewis is healthy would make for an interesting conundrum, but Lewis didn’t play after May 31 last year. After surgery to repair a torn meniscus in his right knee — his third surgery on the joint — he suffered a setback that prevented him from returning and, according to Dipoto, still won’t be ready for Opening Day. Winker’s defensive numbers (-5 DRS, -7 OAA) suggest he’d be a fit for the DH role if the Mariners choose to park one player there.
As for the players the Reds are receiving, Fraley is a 26-year-old lefty swinger originally drafted by the Rays in the second round in 2016 and acquired by the Mariners in the Mike Zunino deal in November ’18. Viewed as a tweener whose bat would be too light to carry an outfield corner, he struggled over the course of 70 PA with the Mariners in 2019 and ’20, then hit .210/.352/.369 with nine homers, 10 steals, and a 109 wRC+ in 265 PA last year. He’s a very disciplined hitter who walked 17.4% of the time last year and showed surprising power, though his 85.3-mph average exit velo and 6.2% barrel rate illustrate that he doesn’t consistently hit the ball hard. As Eric Longenhagen wrote last year, he’s most likely a Ben Gamel-style bench piece, or perhaps a platoon player if things break right.
Dunn is a 26-year-old righty who was the 19th pick of the 2016 draft by the Mets, then a key piece (along with Kelenic) in the December ’18 trade that sent Robinson Canó and Edwin Díaz to New York. After spending all of the 2020 season in the Mariners’ rotation, he began last year in the same capacity but was sidelined by a shoulder strain in mid-June and faced just one batter in a mid-September rehab appearance before being shut down. He has been cleared to begin throwing from a mound next week.
The 6-foot-2, 185-pound Dunn throws a four-seam fastball that averaged 93.7 mph in 2021 and generally ranged from 91–96 mph; his average spin of 2,357 rpm put him in the 76th percentile. He’s got an effective curve and slider; batters hit just .204 and slugged .222 against the former, .128 and .191 against the latter. His ERAs have been well ahead of his peripherals thus far, with a 3.75 ERA but a 4.74 FIP in 50.1 innings in 2021, and he owns a 3.94 ERA and a 5.05 FIP in 102.2 career innings. Walks (a 15.5% rate) have been a real problem, though his 20.6% strikeout rate is nothing to write home about, either. As a flyballer, he might have trouble with the move to the less forgiving ballpark, making it all the more imperative he can cut that walk rate.
Dunn has two years and 20 days of major league service time, but he also has three minor league options remaining. His late start to the spring makes it conceivable that he could spend a chunk of the season in the minors — enough that he wouldn’t reach three years of service time and arbitration eligibility next winter. That said, the trade of Gray leaves the Reds with Luis Castillo, Tyler Mahle, and Vladimir Gutierrez as their only experienced starters. Manager David Bell believes that heat-throwing Hunter Greene, the second pick of the 2017 draft, is ready after a season split between Double-A and Triple-A, but that still leaves room for Dunn.
Eventually, Williamson could figure in that rotation as well. The 6-foot-6, 210-pound lefty, a 2019 second-round pick out of Texas Christian, split last season between High-A Everett and Double-A Arkansas, putting up a 3.39 ERA with a 37.4% strikeout rate, 8.1% walk rate, and a 1.0 HR/9 rate. Longenhagen compared Williamson to Blake Snell, describing him as “a pitch data darling” with four plus pitches. More, from THE BOARD:
Scouts congregating in Dallas on Friday nights to see Nick Lodolo during the spring of 2019 would often just spend their weekend with a Texas Christian club that produced nine draft picks. Among those nine, none impressed more than Williamson, a 6-foot-6 pop-up JUCO transfer who was cranking out mid-90s heat from the left side. Ultimately landing in the second round, Williamson had a phenomenal full-season debut, putting up a 37.4% strikeout rate while spending the majority of the season at Double-A, where he finished with a flourish. Williamson has a variety of weapons to choose from. After struggling to hold his velocity as an amateur, his 2021 went a long way toward convincing scouts of his ability to remain a starter, as he intentionally ratcheted down his velo to the 92-94 mph range while touching 96, and was able to maintain those levels throughout games. His high arm angle allows his fastball to play up due to good shape and outstanding vertical break, and it’s also his worst pitch, as he can miss bats with a plus mid-80s slider and an even better changeup with massive downward action. Williamson will also lob in a low-70s curveball and he sometimes alters his delivery to do so, as a way of catching hitters by surprise. While he has improved his strike throwing as a pro, he remains a control-over-command type, but with this kind of stuff, he doesn’t need to be especially precise as long as he just fills the box. He projects as a potentially dominant starter who still needs three or four innings from the bullpen.
And here’s some video of Williamson taken on the Mariners’ backfields (the day before the trade, no less):
Though Reds general manager Nick Krall said that Williamson “will compete for a spot in spring training this year,” he’ll likely start the season in Triple-A. As for the rest of the deal, Krall told reporters, “The player to be named later is also a player we like, so it’s not just a throw-in there. We have a couple of months to be able to scout a group of players before we choose one.”
Between the opt-out of Nick Castellanos and the trades of Gray, Suárez, and Winker, the Reds have cut payroll to the point of having just four players with guaranteed salaries on their roster: Joey Votto, Mike Moustakas, Shogo Akiyama, and Justin Wilson. Roster Resource estimates their total payroll at just $90 million, about $10 million below where they finished last year. Even so, Krall refused to call what the Reds are doing a teardown. Via The Athletic’s C. Trent Rosecrans, he said, “We’re not trying to rebuild. We’re trying to be the best team we can be in 2022 and also set ourselves up for long-term success and sustainability.”
Krall told reporters that the Reds plan to use the freed-up money to “work in the free-agent market and be more proactive in the free-agent and trade markets,” but it’s safe to assume they aren’t pursuing Carlos Correa, Trevor Story, or even Zack Greinke. While the new Collective Bargaining Agreement contains measures to curb tanking, a cynic might look at what the Reds are doing as trying to buy a ticket to the draft lottery rather than compete for a playoff spot. This is a frustrating turn of events for their players and fans in the wake of Cincinnati’s 2020 postseason appearance and franchise-record payroll.
It’s not a painless move for the Mariners to surrender that much young pitching, particularly when their rotation could probably use another arm. But in the wake of last year’s near-miss, it’s encouraging to see Seattle, which made a significant splash by landing Robbie Ray via free agency, double down in an effort to secure that long-elusive playoff spot.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
So mlb owners have a huge issue with Cohen spending to try to win and added an extra surcharge to the cba to try and stop him yet they’re okay with Bob Castellini dumping payroll and tanking what clowns they are . It isn’t even like Suarez is making that much anyway. Man the Reds OF is super packed I guess Winker or Haniger will be the dh and Trammell might be moved in another trade and Lewis is starting the season on the injured list I believe.
Mariners not Reds OF my bad
While I understand that the Owners might like tanking teams because there are fewer non-tankers to bid up salary, I don’t see how this is good for the image of the game, for advertisers, and for the city and state taxpayers whose teams will look to pony up free/subsidized stadiums and infrastructure. But, Owners are billionaires, franchise values have soared, there’s plenty of money sloshing around, and that tells the Owners that the “market” hasn’t yet asked them to do better.
I actually really like what the Reds have done in the last couple of days. They’re not going to win this year or next, so moving Gray (who has value) and Suarez (who is an albatross) for top prospects is the only sound move. I love Brandon Williamson, and I still think Chase Petty can start if someone teaches him to pitch instead of throwing max-velo. I’m interested to see who the PTBNL is, but I really like this deal.
The 2023 rotation should be Luis Castillo, Tyler Mahle (underrated), Nick Lodolo, Brandon Williamson… that’s gonna be a fun rotation to watch, and I can’t wait to see what Hunter Greene looks like out of the bullpen. So while moving Winker has to hurt, the Reds just got a whole lot better in 2023 AND freed up a ton of cash to spend around the new young core. I would suspect that their comments about the free agent market largely play out next year. If they believe in Jose (Garcia) Barrero, then no need to go after Story or Correa. Or pitchers like Greinke.
This will be a quick rebuild and a team that can win the NL Central next year, and will now be built around young pitching. They could have spent a bunch of money and tried to compete in 2022 but it would have been a boom or bust year. They’re much better positioned for the 2023-2025 three-year window.
Fair comment. I hope you are right. The problem is that a lot of teams have been trying to emulate the Astro tear down years ago, but it’s very hard to pull off, and far more end up losing for an extended period. Hard for a fan to go through an extended dry spell.
That is putting a lot of faith in ownership actually spending a year after dumping salary like this. Castillo and Mahle will be in their walk years in 2023 if they haven’t already been traded.
This trade makes them worse in 2023, Fraley and Dunn are AAAA guys and Williamson is a wild card like all pitching prospects. Winker will likely be more valuable than all three of them in 2023.
“Winker will likely be more valuable than all three of them in 2023.”
He’ll also be a lot more expensive.
Maybe. As he gets older Winker’s bad defense will get worse and worse, and he’s already basically a platoon hitter (has almost no pop at all vs lefties). Last year was his first season with fWAR over 1.5, and he’s 28, which should be about his peak. And they only have him for two years of control. I don’t think he’s as massive an asset as people seem to think.
Not for Cinci but for Seattle he might be.
Baseball is an ensemble sport.
Winker will be more valuable over the next 5 years!
Albatross is an overstatement. He’s not good but he’s not making enough to be considered an albatross either.
ZiPS projects Eugenio Suarez with 6.1 WAR over the remaining three years of his contract. At 2021 rates, that’s worth about $49 million.
Three years at $35 million is a reasonable price for a flawed slugger who leads MLB in home runs since 2018.
“At 2021 rates, that’s worth about $49 million.”
No, it’s not. Because WAR is not linear. We really need to stop thinking about a Win being worth a certain amount until it gets to the 3+-win level. 2-win-or-less-players on the backside of prime years are not worth the same per-win as 3-4 win players under age 28. The future production is so much more variable and that’s what a contract is paying for. I doubt a single team would give him 3/$35M today if he were a FA based on how lost he’s looked at the plate for the last two seasons.
In any event, Suarez has been worth 1.5 Wins over his lost 700 PA (2020-2021), with all of his value coming on defense at 3B. He’s a *negative WAR* batter at the plate, and many of his PA’s last year were unwatchable.
And I’m not sure what “leads MLB in home runs since 2018” is worth since he fell off a cliff in 2020 and didn’t climb back up in 2021. I’m not sure the homers are worth it with a sub-.300 OPB over the last two seasons.and a strikeout rate that his spiked to 30%. And that’s playing in the NL Central… not a murderer’s row of pitchers in that division. Especially in 2020 with the in-division play… Suarez’s production is even more brutal.
In fact, if you look at the data, he went bonkers in September 2021… against expanded rosters and some of the worst pitching in baseball (DET, PIT, Wash Nats, a White Sox team that had already clinched, etc.). Look at the game logs. An 0-3 against Kershaw sandwiched inside of games with home runs against the likes of Max Kranick and Cody Ponce. He was slashing .169 / .255 / .363 at the end of August… and that’s the player he played like all last year. The fact that his slash line ended at .198 / .286 / .428 tells you more about the pitching he faced down the stretch than it does the quality of his bat.
And for what it’s worth Khris Davis led the league in HR a couple years back and then disappeared without a trace. Sure you’d rather have 40 HR than 5 HR with all else being equal, but leading the league in HR isn’t completely indicative that you’re good in and of itself.
Through Chris Carter in there with”guys who led the league in HR and then fell off completely”.
On the Chris Carter subject, it really was odd that he didn’t get a job. Like he wasn’t gonna be a star, but he seems like he could have certainly get a job. He was one of the more entertaining batters in recent memory. Not like in a Barry Bonds Mike Trout way, but in the I am 100% certain he would make up his mind before the pitch came if he was going to swing or not way. He would miss pitches by feet sometimes. It’s like he would guess fastball down the middle and swing like a fb down the middle was coming, meanwhile dude bounces a curveball 3 feet in front of the plate. And the ease at which he swung. It’s almost like he was instructed “don’t swing hard try to hit the ball”. It was completely effortless, then boom 460 to left center (in between many misses).
What contract would Eugenio Suarez receive if the third baseman were a free agent this offseason?
FanGraphs columnist Ben Clemens had these projected contracts for free agent third basemen this offseason (with the Steamer projected 2022 WAR):
Kris Bryant 8 years, $200 million, 2.7 WAR
Chris Taylor 4 years, $60 million, 1.8 WAR
Kyle Seager 2 years, $26 million, 1.9 WAR (since retired)
Eduardo Escobar 1 year, $10 million 1.9 WAR
Jonathan Villar 1 year, $7 million, 1.2 WAR
Suarez is three-and-a-half years younger than Seager and six months older than Bryant. Steamer projects a 2022 WAR of 1.9 for Suarez, who has three years and $35 million remaining on his contract.
The idea that Suarez just took advantage of expanded rosters all September is a little strange, given how little roster expansion changes things since the expansion to 40 went away. A quick look shows some real success against marginal guys, but also a good number of extra-base knocks against legitimate, season-long MLB pitchers (Happ & Shreve, to name just two).
Among other things, if it were really true that Suarez’ entire late-season bounce is explained by facing terrible pitching, you’d expect his teammates who hit all year to have been even better against the glorified Triple-A competition the Reds faced that month. You’d expect Votto to put up Barry Bonds-type numbers. But Suarez was the best hitter on the team that month by a decent margin (about 200 points of OPS above Votto, about 300 points above Castellanos).
Not enough to predict a return to 2019 form for sure, but I think a month’s worth of outhitting Castellanos and the good version of Joey Votto (who themselves had good months) puts a pretty big dent in the “the pitchers just sucked” explanation.
But, even if the pitching works out, they’ll still have to score a few runs … look at that outfield!
The issue is that they easily could win this year and next (or at least heavily contend) if they weren’t being so cheap.
Greene to the bullpen? Do you not think he can start?
I really don’t. At least, not in a traditional starter’s role. Just my opinion – but I think he’ll be one of the best closers in baseball in a couple of years if he can keep the ball in the ballpark. The velo is elite and he can throw strikes but the rest of his pitches aren’t far enough along to go 5+ innings.
However, I also thought that Rafael Montero would be a better starting pitcher than Zack Wheeler, so I also don’t know a dang thing sometimes. That’s what makes baseball fun.
Why would Greene be in the bullpen?
Are you kidding? Only bad luck kept them from the playoffs last year. It would not have taken much extra spending to create a division winner. Suarez hit more than 30 home runs. The only reason he was not a 3 WAR player was because ownership decided to be cheap and not sign a legit SS. Had they done so this team would have been the class of the division or at least close.
The reason he was not a 3 WAR player was because he slashed .169 / .255 / .363 through the end of August, before facing mostly minor league pitching in September.
I think you are looking at the data very differently than I am. And that’s fine. But what I see is a hitter who has always mashed fastballs and has never hit breaking balls well. And whether it’s age, general decline, or the lingering effects of the shoulder injury, he can still sometimes hit a mistake fastball over the fence, but he generally can’t catch up to the fastball like he used to. Teams are using the data to throw him 50% more secondary pitches than they used to, and he’s still swinging at everything. Unless he suddenly develops better pitch recognition, or unless the decline in fastball-hitting was temporary, he’s in a downward spiral at the plate.
Hitting 30 homers while being worth negative offensive value with a sub-.300 OBP and way too many strikeouts is not valuable.
The Reds aren’t tanking. They might not even lose 90 games this year. It’s just disappointing to see them take such a large step back like this when they could be right up there competing with the Cardinals and Brewers for the division title if they spent even close to what they did (before prorating) in 2020.
Were the Reds in contention for the NL Central?
Realistically, no, but they were still at 83 win team. It’s not one trade, but a pattern for the year’s offseason.
Don’t put too much weight on franchise value alone.
Franchise value hinges on finding a buyer and at current rates that field is mostly populated by business-focused guys. No more Mike Illitch’s out there.
Any potential buyer is likely to be more of the same.
Other than Colorado and Anaheim, there aren’t many teams where a change in ownership is a guaranteed win for the team.
In general, yes, I think you’re correct. But Steve Cohen is definitely more Mike Ilitch than Chris Ilitch.
We’ll see how long the love affair lasts.
Still, one out of thirty?
Thing is, sports teams as toys for the (truly) rich is passe. Today’s true movers and shakers have bigger things in mind. Today’s RICH have bigger ideas about what their legacies will be like.
Many people look at team valuations compared to a working stiff’s net value and it’s a lot. But compare all of MLB to a single big corp and it’s peanuts. Like, Microsoft just committed to paying $68B for Activision, which even poorly run has been making $9B a year. All cash. And by the time tbe deal closes, their cash stash will be bigger than when tbey made the announcement. (MS, for one, keeps on hand enough liquid assets to operate their entire global business for a year without making a single red cent. We already saw what losing even half a season did to MLB.)
And tbat is just one example in the entertainment world among the multiple deals for Warner Bros, NBC UNIVERSAL, FOX, etc. Amazon just bought (what remains of) MGM for $9B and nobody blinked.
But all those are corporate deals, not individuals.
Folks at those levels don’t spend tbeir money playing strat-o-matic with real players, they build new industries, entire new cities, try to end malaria, Colonize a new world.
Baseball ownership is simultaneiusly too pricy for run of tbe mill millionaires like, say Cleveland’s Dolans, and too penny ante for tbe big corps or today’s corporate barons. Too expensive to be hobby, too small to be a corporate asset. The teams today have to pay for themselves because their “rich” owners aren’t all that rich by the standards of tbe age of Trillion dollar companys and soon, the first trillionaires.
Context matters.
$0.02
Man, there’s gonna be some tough decisions ahead for the Reds. Their “young” guys on the mlb roster are not that young. India and Stephenson are both 25, Senzel will be 27 in June, and Barrero will be 24 before the season opens. Their top prospects now are mostly pitchers who are pretty close to being in the majors (Greene, Lodolo, Williamson).
So, are they gonna kick up their spending again after a year or two? Because if they don’t, they’re either going to waste the best and cheapest years of those guys or they should seriously consider trading some of the India, Castillo, Mahle, Stephenson group to push their timeline further back.
This, I think, is the part that is really getting me about CIN’s situation. Castillo and Mahle are going to be free agents soon. They either need to lock them up long-term and build around them, India, and Stephenson (and Barrero if he’s any good) or they need to get some value for them so that they have people to supplement the next wave of prospects.
I don’t necessarily think the Reds should have been adding pieces but if they’re going to sell, they need to figure out what it takes to keep their big guys around for a while or sell even harder.
My guess would be they will continue to give lip service to wanting to contend and sell off the pieces as they become more expensive in favor of prospects – sort of a Rays-lite but less astute at it.
It is hard to picture Votto in another uniform, but eventually I would imagine even he gets annoyed.
A Mariners friend of mine were chatting just as this post came up. M’s needed to improve offense. Outfield may be a surprising place to do it, but Haninger is the guy they have close to being a sure thing. And with Seager gone from 3B, Suerez makes sense there. Would signing Kris Bryant have been as effective? Maybe? Maybe Seattle isn’t the ideal hitter destination. And two new bats could be better than 1. I think they’ll miss Williamson, and the PTBNL may hurt. But it’s hard to fault any team for making “win now” moves!
I think the Reds nailed this deal. Suarez is coming off an awful year, Williamson looks fantastic, and while Winker is amazing at what he does (absolutely destroy right-handed pitching) he’s quite lousy at hitting lefties or playing defense. A valuable contributor, yes. A star? No, not exactly, even if managed correctly his rate stats will be incredible. Getting Williamson for Winker is quite a good deal.
I think for the Mariners the key is going to be Suarez. I’ve been a huge, huge Suarez backer for years now but moving him to shortstop screwed him up really badly. If he finds a comfort level playing third again and rediscovers his old stroke, then the Mariners will be absolutely thrilled with this deal. He didn’t come cheap, and his contract looks terrible right now, but if he plays to his ZiPs projection the Mariners will be absolutely thrilled.
I think his shoulder injury and subsequent offseason surgery a few years ago is was what screwed him up offensively
Does Suarez’s contract look terrible? It’s 3/33 with a $2m buyout or $15m option. Even as dead money that’s not that big a deal, so taking that risk for this upside is a no-brainer of a trade, especially with two decent backup options on the roster.
Last year he dealt with (a) recovery from injury/surgery, (b) an ill-advised position switch, and (c) a ~90-pt drop in BABIP from career norms that doesn’t seem in line with corresponding changes in his batted ball data.
The upside is obvious – there’s a reason he used to make the top-50 trade value list with his contract – but he’d earn his salary with just a bounce back to 2020 levels.
He’d earn his salary with just a bounce back to 2020 levels? The 101 wRC+ is worth 3/$35M to you?
His 2020 production was worth ~2.6 WAR prorated for a full season so yeah I’d say it would be.
With all of that value on defense at a position that he doesn’t play currently.
Huh? Suarez played exclusively 3B in 2020, and was returned there last year after that silly shortstop experiment flopped. He will certainly be playing 3B with Seattle, where he has been roughly average or slightly below average for his career
Wait he doesn’t play third base anymore?
I think he’s a worthwhile gamble. I wouldn’t sign him to that deal, but there are a number of worlds where he dramatically outperforms the contract.
The Reds sold low on him, but I still like the return.
I definitely didn’t think this was the fleecing that people seemed to make it out to be. I too, love Williamson so that’s probably why. It just sucks I guess to see another team not try to get better, when they are in more-winnable division, especially a team that would have the playoffs last season if the new format was around.
2 awful years
I agree on it being Suarez here. The way it was written made it sound like the Winker trade, he wasn’t even mentioned in some of the early tweets. Suarez is who will make or break this deal. Best case winker puts up what, 3 war? 4? Suarez is projected similar to Winker right now, and Winker might end up being DH only
Jerry dipoto, after decided he personally dislikes the beloved franchise third baseman because the previous FO “over”paid him: i am going to take this personally and force him into retirement
Jerry Dipoto, a few months later: haha what if i traded for an overpaid third baseman
Kyle Seager had an OBP under .300 last year, and was freefalling defensively. He was still ok, but looked cooked. Perfectly understandable not to bring him back. The M’s did very well here – Winker was the target, and he’s instantly their best hitter.
“Kyle Seager had an OBP under .300 last year, and was freefalling defensively”
So did the third baseman they just traded for
Yes, but they also got Jesse Winker, who upgrades their outfield situation much more than the dropoff between Seager and Suarez
And costs more in prospects and salary
He hit 35 homers and was worth 2.5 wins, he did not look “cooked.” I can see arguments for or against picking up the option but the idea that he was ever overpaid is ridiculous. It was an extremely reasonable deal for a highly consistent and productive player.
I never said his deal was bad – the extension was fair. But last year, his contact rates and plate discipline plummeted and his defense took a turn for the worse. Those are obvious and informative signs of decline, and it was perfectly reasonable for the M’s not to bring him back, despite the quality of his previous performance.
Cincinatti’s steadfast commitment to tearing down their roster with the sole goal of payroll reduction and nothing else is appalling and seriously putting them in contention with the Rockies for the worst front office/ownership combo in the league
Eh….the Gray deal was a salary dump. This deal got them a pretty darn good prospect in exchange for the world’s deadliest platoon-only bat. Suarez had a terrible year–dumping him is a wash. This deal will look terrible if Suarez rebounds but without the benefit of hindsight (which we don’t have yet) the deal looks good to me.
I disagree. They could’ve shaken another 40+ FV prospect out of a team if they didn’t feel the need to lump Suarez in with Winker. This deal isn’t as atrocious as some others because they did get SOME real talent back, but they still dropped their return to save a few bucks, which is ridiculous with how much salary they’ve already cut
And what were they going to do with Suarez?
Eat his contract?
They had three 3B on the roster and only two places to hide them.
Trying suarez at ss last year was a bad idea but this year they don’t have even tbat option. Can’t DH him…
Just moving Suarez and his money is a plus.
Question is, what do they do with the $20M they shook loose.
“They could’ve shaken another 40+ FV prospect out of a team”
Krall is contending that the PTBNL will be of significance. Could be a 40+ prospect (or not) but this deal isn’t complete and value can’t be fully assessed.
And the Reds have now claimed 4th place in the NL Central!
Seriously, just how hard were they hit by the pandemic to need to cut payroll this much even now?!
A pitiful return for Cincinnati, which is what you get when you sell off a “bad” contract, instead of maximizing a talent like Winker on his own. Indefensible from the Reds standpoint, all upside for the Ms.
Cutting payroll was the main point!. If that weren’t an issue, they wouldn’t be trading either player at all.
Fascinating dichotomy in these comments.
Those with an anti-owner stance hate this trade.
Those that look at the stats and players involved seem to like it.
Keep the comments and downvotes coming!
A lot of hate for the Reds in the comments here, which is unjustified. Winker is a good player and adds a lot of punch to the Mariners’ lineup, but we are talking about a guy who will sit every game against a lefty, and will exit the game a good chunk of the time when a lefty reliever comes in. He is impossibly bad against left-handed pitching. He had a wRC+ of 57 against lefties last year. For his career, it’s 65. This guy is not going to give you the same rate stats at 600 PAs.
He makes the Mariners better but there is a reason he is available. He can’t he can’t run, which also means he can’t really field. He’s probably going to be their DH. The Reds got market rate for a guy like this.
Just to reinforce this–the deadliest platoon-only bat on the planet is not an exaggeration. The last two years, Winker’s wRC+ against righties is 169. The only guys better than him were Juan Soto, Bryce Harper, and Brandon Belt. He was just above Jared Walsh and Freddie Freeman.
You just have to never, ever let him face left-handed pitching.
Maybe the Mariners imagine Rodriguez does his few weeks in the minors and Lewis gets healthy to play some and by May sometime they have Rodriguez, Lewis, Kelenic, Haniger, and Winker to rotate through the outfield + DH slots and have the platoon advantages most days? That might work, no?
People are overrating Winker, but there was no reason for the Reds to lump him in with Suarez and suppress their prospect return like they did.
If they didn’t need to lump him in with Suarez, they would’ve just kept Winker instead of trading him. The only reason they traded either player in the first place was to get Suarez’s contract off the books, but nobody was going to trade for Suarez alone without sweetening the pot.
awkward trade. put me in the ‘suarez’s contact isnt THAT bad’ and the ‘wtf are the reds doing??’ camps.
its not that i think this is a bad deal for the reds per se, but it doesn’t exactly clarify their timeline. i guess we need to see what the entire plan is before judging.
I think some of the anti-anti-pushback to this trade may be missing the context of the Reds front office’s public commitment to “align[ing] our payroll with our resources,” as well as the entirety of how the org has approached this offseason. Waiving Wade Miley continues to be a cynical decision; one doesn’t have to think he’s a star to understand that he’s a tradeable asset. Tucker Barnhart was a popular player with Reds fans. Nick Castellanos was popular, an all-star, and a great park fit. Winker was popular, an all-star, and entering his prime years (of projectably sustainable production). Pairing the latter with Suarez in a deal to shed Suarez’s payroll hit — whose contract was attractive to the Reds in the first place partly because it priced in the risk of him turning out to be an average player! — is tough to accept. And the whole of this is even tougher to accept when considering it all came at the benefit of receiving Williamson (a solid prospect, to be sure), meeting ownership’s stated goal of spending much less on players, and nothing else. Reds management can be taken in good faith when it stops treating the team’s fans in bad faith, if not contempt.
This, by the way, is why teams should never broadcast that the point of a move is to save money (and should avoid moves that are so obviously about saving money like the ones the Reds have been doing). Fans hate teams that say they’re being cheapskates. They want to feel like their teams want to win as much as they do.
I think that’s fair and agree, if for no other reason than it’s just dumb PR. It’s been doubly worse because the GM said that the Reds would aim to cut payroll — then has turned around and said that the subsequent payroll-cutting moves have actually been about competitiveness, and in the case of the Winker-Suarez deal, not about payroll at all. Pretty shameless. But even without Nick Krall telegraphing the org’s intentions, I’m unsure how the cumulative in-and-out this offseason could be interpreted as anything but stinginess. Not when the “in” so far includes a single player (Williamson) who projects to be a high-volume contributor (starter or position player). Al Davis had “Just had win, baby.” In Cincy it’s “Just save, baby.” (And not “save games,” mind you, since they traded Raisel Iglesias last offseason for pennies on the dollar, too.)
Usually you save by letting guys go in free agency, or trading guys for massive hauls. They let Nick Castellanos go? Nobody will bat an eye. They trade Luis Castillo for a million prospects? The fact that they just saved $8M or whatever won’t register. Giving away Raisel Iglesias and Sonny Gray…that’s pretty obvious. It’s bad for the long-term and short-term competitiveness of the team, and fans should be angry at it. Trading current wins for future wins is a totally fine strategy, but this is just weakening them.
I just don’t think this specific deal is particularly egregious. It’s everything else.
When you make cost cutting moves and lie about it you become the Jeff Loria Marlins and your fan base disappears.
Fun fact: the last time the Mariners made the playoffs their regular 3rd baseman was David Bell. At the time, the Reds were paying Griffey Jr $12.5M to play for them.
Now, 21 years later, David Bell is the manager of the Reds… and the Reds are still paying Ken Griffey Jr $3.5M to not play for them. This, incidentally puts him 4th on that guaranteed money list behind Votto, Moustakas, and Akiyama. He may be higher before this offseason is over.
Who amongst us has not had a swimming pool accident? When looking back on past season, you only see WAR, OPS+, etc. but the Goofball quotient is what gets you through a 162 season. Glad to have Suarez on the M’s!
it could be worse. remember like 10 years ago there was a player who hurt himself tanning?
The weirdest injuries in baseball history are almost certainly:
-Joel Zumaya playing Guitar Hero
-Steve Sparks trying to tear a telephone book in half
And the hands down winner:
-Glenallen Hill having a huge nightmare about being chased by spiders, resulting him falling through a glass table.
“[Aaron Sanchez] has been out with an injury to his right middle finger since a brief June 21 start against the Angels. The cause of the damage wasn’t made public, however, until Wednesday — when he admitted his finger got stuck in a suitcase as it accidentally fell over.” (Toronto Star, 8/22/18)
Also from that article: “HUCK FLENER: Flener was flying to spring training in 1997 when a briefcase flew out of the airplane’s overhead compartment and chipped his collarbone.”
Flener had so many mishaps, a Blue Jays fan of my acquaintance dubbed him “the player to be maimed later.”
And to think, it was less than 4 years ago that this supposed “albatross” of a contract for Suarez was deemed a good enough value to have him ranked #32 on FG Trade Value! Crazy what a couple of bad years will do for ya.
The shoulder injury, and COVID, may have permanently altered who Suarez can be as a player. Or maybe he can bounce back….