An Update to Prospect Valuation

(Photo: Tricia Hall)
Over the years, a good deal of effort has been put into determining the value of prospects. Victor Wang, Scott McKinney (updated here), Kevin Creagh and Steve DiMiceli together, and Jeff Zimmerman have all published work on the subject, roughly in that order.
The reasoning behind such efforts is fairly obvious: teams trade prospects for proven players all the time. Finding an objective way to evaluate those trades is useful to better understanding how the sport operates. Indeed, FanGraphs has benefited from those prospect-valuation studies on multiple occasions.
With another year having passed, I’ve attempted to build on the work of others and produce updated valuations of my own. Previous efforts have been very helpful in the process, while the input of prospect analysts Eric Longenhagen and Kiley McDaniel has helped me find results that would be most useful.
In building this study, I set out with the following aims:
- To separate players into as many useful tiers as possible without creating unnecessary distinctions.
- To use as much data as possible so long as it was useful and likely still relevant today.
- To make the valuations as forward-looking as possible.
- To recognize that player development is not linear and that players appearing on prospect lists vary from major-league-ready to raw, Rookie-level talents.
To those various ends, here are some of the parameters of this study:
1. Baseball America’s top-100 lists from 1996 to 2010 serve as the foundation for prospect grades.
When I started the study, I looked at the lists dating back to 1990, separating out position players from pitchers and organizing by year. I found that the evaluations from the earlier part of the 90s — especially those for pitchers — had considerably worse outcomes than those that came after. I debated whether or not to throw out the data. Eventually, though, I decided that since 15 years of prospect numbers were showing decidedly different results, and that there was considerable turmoil occurring within the sport during that time — expansion, a strike, and a lockout — it seemed reasonable to toss the earlier years and go with the assumption that the 1996-2010 lists more accurately represented prospect evaluation today and going forward than the rankings of 25 years ago.
2. No prospect ranking was thrown out.
Some studies have taken only the final prospect valuation for an individual player and not the previous seasons’ rankings, as well. I thought it was important to use every data point possible, however. Just because a player is ranked 85th one season and then first the next year shouldn’t render the No. 85 ranking moot. Removing previous rankings throws out a lot of potentially valuable information. Many players move up the rankings from one season to the next season and capturing that effect is important to understanding the enterprise as a whole
3. Players were separated into tiers based on the 20-80 scouting scale.
Because Baseball America didn’t put grades on players for many of the years considered in this study, it was necessary to make estimates after the fact. Fortunately, in a piece he wrote for the 2016 Hardball Times Annual, Jeff Zimmerman approximated historical grades by looking at the publicly available grades BA had used in more recent seasons. To make this as forward-looking as possible, I consulted with Eric Longenhagen and Kiley McDaniel to get a sense, on average, of how many prospects in each tier are typically populating the minors. We came up with this:
| Numerical Value | Players |
|---|---|
| 70 | 2 |
| 65 | 5 |
| 60 | 16 |
| 55 | 20 |
| 50 | 57 |
Separating players into group by scouting grade as opposed to a more arbitrary tiering system (for example, simply dividing players into groups of 10 or 25) has one distinct advantage — namely, that it more accurately reflects how talent is distributed. The gap in promise (and observed future value) between the 1st- and 10th-ranked prospect is often larger than the 50th- and 80th-ranked ones. Using the scouting grades allows us to capture these differences. And by grouping all of the 50-grade players together, for example, we get a lot more data points for that group and hopefully achieve more accurate results in the process.
Method
To determine surplus value for players, I used WAR produced over the first nine seasons of a career, including the season in which a prospect was ranked. Why nine years? In today’s game, most players don’t hit free agency until after their seventh major-league season. By examining nine seasons, it’s possible to account for prospects who were still a couple years away from the majors when they appeared on a top-100 list — as well as late-bloomers who might have bounced up and down between the majors and minors for a full season.
Of course, not all prospects continue to develop in the minor leagues after appearing on a top-100 list. Some debut in the majors right away. Due to the methodology outlined above, such players might be in a position to receive greater credit for their first nine seasons simply because they were closer to the majors when they were ranked. To accommodate this issue, I’ve spread out
a player’s WAR over the final seven seasons of the period in question, distributing 10% of it to years three and four before slightly gradually increasing that figure up to 20% by year nine. To calculate surplus value, I’ve discounted WAR by 3% in years No. 3 through 5 (to approximate the impact of the league-minimum salary) and then 15% in year six, 32% in year seven, 48% in year eight, and 72% in year nine. Spreading out the WAR in this way not only mimics a sort of generic “development curve” but also ensures that arbitration discounts aren’t too heavy.
After that, I applied an 8% discount rate for present value. For players immediately ready to play, the extra value they get from the eighth and ninth year is minimized by removing value they actually provided from the first two years and spreading into later seasons. This similarly ensures that the controllable years of players who take longer to develop or reach the majors aren’t treated the same way as those produced by players who contribute right away. A two-win season in 2019 is more valuable than a two-win season in 2021; and this method helps to strike that balance.
Because a lot of that might be confusing, here’s an example of the methodology applied to Jason Heyward’s career:
| Actual to System WAR | ARB Discount | Present Day Discount | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Season | Actual WAR | System WAR | ARB Discount | WAR After Discount | Present Day Discount | Present Day WAR Value |
| 2009 | 0 | 0.0 | ||||
| 2010 | 4.7 | 0.0 | ||||
| 2011 | 1.9 | 2.7 | 0.97 | 2.6 | .92^2 | 2.2 |
| 2012 | 5.3 | 2.7 | 0.97 | 2.6 | .92^3 | 2.1 |
| 2013 | 3.1 | 3.6 | 0.97 | 3.5 | .92^4 | 2.5 |
| 2014 | 4.7 | 3.6 | 0.85 | 3.1 | .92^5 | 2.2 |
| 2015 | 5.6 | 4.6 | 0.68 | 3.1 | .92^6 | 1.9 |
| 2016 | 1.0 | 4.6 | 0.52 | 2.4 | .92^7 | 1.3 |
| 2017 | 1.0 | 5.5 | 0.28 | 1.5 | .92^8 | 0.8 |
| Total | 27.3 | 27.3 | 18.9 | 13.0 | ||
Results
What follows are the present-day values of prospects based on the study performed above. The results are presented in present-day WAR and translated to a rough dollar figure based on $9 million as the cost of a win on the free-agent market. Keep in mind that the dollar figure isn’t a direct value, but rather equivalent value of a prospect relative to the free-agent market. Part of the reason prospects have such tremendous value is due to the suppressed salaries permitted by the CBA until a player has reached six years of service time. By translating the WAR figure into a monetary value, we can compare the value of prospects with the values of major-league players and their contracts. These values likely roughly approximate what an individual player might get as a signing bonus if he were declared a free agent and teams could only provide a signing bonus instead of a long-term contract.
For those of you who have read the piece up to this point, thank you. Hopefully it helped answer some questions you might have. For those who just scrolled down to see the dollar values, here you go:
| Prospect Type | 2018 $ Value* | Players | AVG WAR** | MEDIAN WAR | Standard Deviation | Bust Rate (<1 Present Day WAR) | Star Rate (>10 Present Day WAR) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 70 POS | $112 M | 21 | 12.5 | 11.3 | 7.6 | 4.8% | 57.1% |
| 70 P | $85 M | 9 | 9.5 | 7.8 | 7.2 | 0.0% | 44.4% |
| 65 POS | $62 M | 47 | 6.9 | 5.5 | 6.4 | 18.8% | 29.8% |
| 65 P | $64 M | 28 | 7.1 | 6.7 | 6.1 | 14.3% | 17.9% |
| 60 POS | $55 M | 154 | 6.1 | 3.9 | 6.6 | 31.8% | 27.3% |
| 60 P | $60 M | 86 | 6.7 | 6.6 | 5.6 | 22.1% | 25.6% |
| 55 POS | $46 M | 178 | 5.1 | 2.9 | 6.5 | 36.5% | 21.9% |
| 55 P | $34 M | 122 | 3.7 | 2.2 | 4.6 | 39.3% | 9.8% |
| 50 POS | $28 M | 433 | 3.1 | 0.8 | 4.7 | 51.5% | 9.9% |
| 50 P | $21 M | 422 | 2.3 | 0.4 | 3.7 | 58.1% | 5.7% |
**Present Day Value
As you can see, there’s an observed relationship between scouting grades and observed future WAR. A 70-grade position player is best, followed by a 70-grade pitcher. Interestingly, pitchers in the 60-65 FV range come out pretty much the same as their position-player compatriots. Top-level pitchers tend not to bust entirely, generally producing some kind of value. Once you drop a bit lower to the 55s and 50s, however, position players come out ahead, though that’s due less to pitchers busting more often than position players and more because position players are more likely to become stars. Over the past seven seasons, for example, roughly twice as many position players have reached the 20-win threshold than pitchers. There just aren’t as many slots to go around.
This post will be followed by two others, including one dedicated to 40- and 45-grade players, plus a second designed to value team farm systems as a whole.
Longenhagen and McDaniel go to great lengths to rank prospects within tiers — and not just present players in tiers with no further commentary — so while the numbers come out as one value per valuation, the rankings would serve little purpose if we simply placed the same value on all players with a 50 grade, particularly giving a pitcher ranked 55th a $21 million value while giving a hitter ranked 99th a $28 million value.
Sliding the numbers down the scale produces the following for Longenhagen and McDaniel’s top-131 prospects:
| Rank | Name | Team | Pos | FV | Prospect Value* ($M) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Vladimir Guerrero Jr | TOR | 3B | 70 | $112 |
| 2 | Fernando Tatis Jr. | SDP | SS | 65 | $65 |
| 3 | Eloy Jimenez | CHW | RF | 65 | $64 |
| 4 | Victor Robles | WSN | CF | 65 | $64 |
| 5 | Royce Lewis | MIN | SS | 60 | $56 |
| 6 | Wander Franco | TBR | SS | 60 | $56 |
| 7 | Bo Bichette | TOR | SS | 60 | $56 |
| 8 | Kyle Tucker | HOU | RF | 60 | $55 |
| 9 | Nick Senzel | CIN | 3B | 60 | $55 |
| 10 | Carter Kieboom | WSN | SS | 60 | $55 |
| 11 | Brendan Rodgers | COL | SS | 60 | $55 |
| 12 | Forrest Whitley | HOU | RHP | 60 | $54 |
| 13 | Taylor Trammell | CIN | CF | 60 | $54 |
| 14 | Brendan McKay | TBR | LHP/1B | 60 | $54 |
| 15 | Alex Kirilloff | MIN | RF | 60 | $54 |
| 16 | Sixto Sanchez | PHI | RHP | 60 | $53 |
| 17 | Jo Adell | LAA | RF | 60 | $53 |
| 18 | Cristian Pache | ATL | CF | 60 | $53 |
| 19 | Nick Madrigal | CHW | 2B | 60 | $53 |
| 20 | MacKenzie Gore | SDP | LHP | 55 | $45 |
| 21 | Luis Urias | SDP | 2B | 55 | $44 |
| 22 | Keston Hiura | MIL | 2B | 55 | $44 |
| 23 | Brent Honeywell | TBR | RHP | 55 | $44 |
| 24 | Michael Kopech | CHW | RHP | 55 | $44 |
| 25 | Michael Soroka | ATL | RHP | 55 | $43 |
| Rank | Name | Team | Pos | FV | Prospect Value* ($M) |
| 26 | Francisco Mejia | SDP | C | 55 | $43 |
| 27 | Luis Robert | CHW | CF | 55 | $43 |
| 28 | Austin Riley | ATL | 3B | 55 | $43 |
| 29 | Will Smith | LAD | C | 55 | $42 |
| 30 | Andres Gimenez | NYM | SS | 55 | $42 |
| 31 | Jesus Luzardo | OAK | LHP | 55 | $42 |
| 32 | Kyle Wright | ATL | RHP | 55 | $42 |
| 33 | Casey Mize | DET | RHP | 55 | $41 |
| 34 | Ke’Bryan Hayes | PIT | 3B | 55 | $41 |
| 35 | Chris Paddack | SDP | RHP | 55 | $41 |
| 36 | Keibert Ruiz | LAD | C | 55 | $41 |
| 37 | Mitch Keller | PIT | RHP | 55 | $40 |
| 38 | A.J. Puk | OAK | LHP | 55 | $40 |
| 39 | Alex Reyes | STL | RHP | 55 | $40 |
| 40 | Ian Anderson | ATL | RHP | 55 | $40 |
| 41 | Adonis Medina | PHI | RHP | 55 | $40 |
| 42 | Daz Cameron | DET | CF | 55 | $39 |
| 43 | Isaac Paredes | DET | 3B | 55 | $39 |
| 44 | Luiz Gohara | ATL | LHP | 55 | $39 |
| 45 | Leody Taveras | TEX | CF | 55 | $39 |
| 46 | Hunter Greene | CIN | RHP | 50 | $31 |
| 47 | Jesus Sanchez | TBR | RF | 50 | $30 |
| 48 | Yordan Alvarez | HOU | LF | 50 | $30 |
| 49 | Alex Verdugo | LAD | RF | 50 | $30 |
| Rank | Name | Team | Pos | FV | Prospect Value* ($M) |
| 50 | Joey Bart | SFG | C | 50 | $30 |
| 51 | Vidal Brujan | TBR | 2B | 50 | $29 |
| 52 | Sean Murphy | OAK | C | 50 | $29 |
| 53 | Danny Jansen | TOR | C | 50 | $29 |
| 54 | Justus Sheffield | NYY | LHP | 50 | $29 |
| 55 | Triston McKenzie | CLE | RHP | 50 | $28 |
| 56 | Drew Waters | ATL | CF | 50 | $28 |
| 57 | Touki Toussaint | ATL | RHP | 50 | $28 |
| 58 | Brandon Marsh | LAA | CF | 50 | $28 |
| 59 | Luis Patino | SDP | RHP | 50 | $27 |
| 60 | Nick Gordon | MIN | SS | 50 | $27 |
| 61 | Travis Swaggerty | PIT | CF | 50 | $27 |
| 62 | Michel Baez | SDP | RHP | 50 | $27 |
| 63 | Monte Harrison | MIA | CF | 50 | $26 |
| 64 | Estevan Florial | NYY | CF | 50 | $26 |
| 65 | Yu Chang | CLE | SS | 50 | $26 |
| 66 | Zack Collins | CHW | 1B | 50 | $26 |
| 67 | Peter Alonso | NYM | 1B | 50 | $25 |
| 68 | Tristen Lutz | MIL | RF | 50 | $25 |
| 69 | Alec Bohm | PHI | 3B | 50 | $25 |
| 70 | Brandon Lowe | TBR | 2B | 50 | $25 |
| 71 | Shed Long | CIN | 2B | 50 | $24 |
| 72 | Isan Diaz | MIA | 2B | 50 | $24 |
| 73 | Andrew Knizner | STL | C | 50 | $24 |
| 74 | Anderson Espinoza | SDP | RHP | 50 | $24 |
| 75 | Jahmai Jones | LAA | 2B | 50 | $23 |
| Rank | Name | Team | Pos | FV | Prospect Value* ($M) |
| 76 | Cole Tucker | PIT | SS | 50 | $23 |
| 77 | Jon Duplantier | ARI | RHP | 50 | $23 |
| 78 | Oneil Cruz | PIT | 3B | 50 | $23 |
| 79 | Bryse Wilson | ATL | RHP | 50 | $22 |
| 80 | Nolan Jones | CLE | 3B | 50 | $22 |
| 81 | Willie Calhoun | TEX | DH | 50 | $22 |
| 82 | Seuly Matias | KCR | RF | 50 | $22 |
| 83 | Luis Alexander Basabe | CHW | CF | 50 | $21 |
| 84 | Nolan Gorman | STL | 3B | 50 | $21 |
| 85 | Jarred Kelenic | NYM | CF | 50 | $21 |
| 86 | Brayan Rocchio | CLE | SS | 50 | $21 |
| 87 | Micker Adolfo | CHW | RF | 50 | $20 |
| 88 | Jonathan India | CIN | 3B | 50 | $20 |
| 89 | Corey Ray | MIL | CF | 50 | $20 |
| 90 | Griffin Canning | LAA | RHP | 50 | $20 |
| 91 | Trevor Larnach | MIN | RF | 50 | $19 |
| 92 | Ronny Mauricio | NYM | SS | 50 | $19 |
| 93 | Bubba Thompson | TEX | CF | 50 | $19 |
| 94 | Kristian Robinson | ARI | CF | 50 | $19 |
| 95 | Dylan Cease | CHW | RHP | 50 | $18 |
| 96 | Dane Dunning | CHW | RHP | 50 | $18 |
| 97 | Miguel Amaya | CHC | C | 50 | $18 |
| 98 | Brusdar Graterol | MIN | RHP | 50 | $18 |
| 99 | Nate Pearson | TOR | RHP | 50 | $17 |
| 100 | Matthew Liberatore | TBR | LHP | 50 | $17 |
| Rank | Name | Team | Pos | FV | Prospect Value* ($M) |
| 101 | Cole Winn | TEX | RHP | 50 | $17 |
| 102 | Cionel Perez | HOU | LHP | 50 | $17 |
| 103 | Kolby Allard | ATL | LHP | 50 | $16 |
| 104 | Dennis Santana | LAD | RHP | 50 | $16 |
| 105 | Heliot Ramos | SFG | CF | 50 | $16 |
| 106 | Dustin May | LAD | RHP | 50 | $16 |
| 107 | Aramis Ademan | CHC | SS | 50 | $15 |
| 108 | Adrian Morejon | SDP | LHP | 50 | $15 |
| 109 | Shane Baz | TBR | RHP | 50 | $15 |
| 110 | Matt Manning | DET | RHP | 50 | $15 |
| 111 | Josh Naylor | SDP | 1B | 50 | $14 |
| 112 | Joey Wentz | ATL | LHP | 50 | $14 |
| 113 | Franklin Perez | DET | RHP | 50 | $14 |
| 114 | William Contreras | ATL | C | 50 | $14 |
| 115 | Albert Abreu | NYY | RHP | 50 | $13 |
| 116 | Zack Burdi | CHW | RHP | 50 | $13 |
| 117 | Christin Stewart | DET | DH | 50 | $13 |
| 118 | Jose Siri | CIN | CF | 50 | $13 |
| 119 | Braxton Garrett | MIA | LHP | 50 | $12 |
| 120 | Cole Ragans | TEX | LHP | 50 | $12 |
| 121 | Nick Neidert | MIA | RHP | 50 | $12 |
| 122 | Logan Allen | SDP | LHP | 50 | $12 |
| 123 | Anthony Alford | TOR | CF | 50 | $11 |
| 124 | Riley Pint | COL | RHP | 50 | $11 |
| 125 | David Peterson | NYM | LHP | 50 | $11 |
| Rank | Name | Team | Pos | FV | Prospect Value* ($M) |
| 126 | Cal Quantrill | SDP | RHP | 50 | $11 |
| 127 | Sandy Alcantara | MIA | RHP | 50 | $10 |
| 128 | Adbert Alzolay | CHC | RHP | 50 | $10 |
| 129 | Beau Burrows | DET | RHP | 50 | $10 |
| 130 | Alec Hansen | CHW | RHP | 50 | $10 |
| 131 | Anthony Banda | TBR | LHP | 50 | $9 |
Craig Edwards can be found on twitter @craigjedwards.
Fangraphs…you guys are great at you’re job.
Where would Po Jung Wang fit if he went to an MLB team? (If he’s even a 50 FV type)
Great analysis! So at what Prospect Value range does it not make sense ( from the team’s viewpoint) to hold a prospect in the minors to gain the extra year of control? Looking at those numbers, I’d say maybe Vladito, but none of the others. I’d prefer the bird in the hand rather than hoping for Value seven years out, even in the starkest rebuild phase ( say Orioles). What say the analyst?
This is cool stuff, but my initial reaction to the methodology is: Wouldn’t it just be easier to capture WAR earned during initial service time (arb and pre-arb years?). You would have to code which WAR was earned during service years and which ones weren’t, but I’m not sure it would be that hard if you had service time in an spreadsheet-like format. I’m not sure if that exists somewhere, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did.
It’s hard to evaluate how well it works because it involves weighting, and reweighting, and reweighting the values again based on a number of criteria, some of which are baked into the 20-80 scale already. Prospects who are in rookie ball are often getting lower grades than those closer to the majors because their risk of busting is higher, so we’re already conditioning on being further away from the majors. Does constructing the dependent variable to also account for more recent and further away value make sense, or is it essentially another way of measuring the same thing? I don’t know. It’s complicated.
One interesting part of this analysis (if it holds up) is that it shows prospects are a lousy bet. They don’t pan out. Take a look at the $ rankings for FV60s like Kyle Tucker and Forrest Whitley. Those guys have $ rankings, on average, of about $54M. Now take Yelich, who–when he was traded last year–was a consistent 4-4.5 win guy every season of his career. Using $9M as the value of a win (which I have issues with, but it doesn’t actually matter for this exercise since the most important thing is that you use the same metric on both sides), you’re looking at him generating about $36M in value every year (a less if you expect him to decline near the end), giving him a total value of something like $180M in total value compared to 58M in compensation. Maybe now that he’s the probable MVP it seems like Kyle Tucker, Forrest Whitley, and filler is fair compensation for Yelich, but getting two prospects of that caliber would have been really surprising at the time. As it stands, the Marlins-Brewers got there a different way with an FV60, and FV55, an FV50, and an FV40, the first three of which take you to…$120M. So at least on one of the biggest trades in the last year or so, this analysis has some real-world validity.
Of course, considering that the value of a win should not be linear, there are inherent questions about how to apply this sort of analysis. The whole thing is headache-inducing.
Appreciate the comment. The issue I had with the way you proposed is how to deal with arbitration salaries as taking some sort of standard discount ends up with odd results using year-by-year WAR. Using actual salaries then puts you in a spot of using $/WAR going back 20 years which is messy and difficult to estimate that far back. In the end, I felt the smoothing approach with respect to arbitration and WAR best fit all players as a whole even if there are some players where the data isn’t a perfect fit.
The biggest downside (among several), as I see it, is that there are a bunch of players who have put up value beyond the initial contract window. This was something that Chris struggled with for a long time with KATOH. I think eventually he settled on using the WAR in the service year, or something like that. It seemed like a good move then, and I’m curious why you think this is a better solution here.
Also, you could definitely smooth out individual WAR if you wanted and then average across individuals, although you’d need to let your computer run for a couple of weeks to wrap it all up. I’m not sure it’s any less complicated than the re- re- re-weighting scheme here; the data management is much more complex, but it should make the analysis much simpler.
Katoh didn’t factor for salary, which is an added variable here. Going out nine years and delaying the start of value by two years minimizes missing out on late bloomers while still factoring for players who contribute right away.
The omission of three letters makes me sad.
BOS. Better maximize that window now!
no SEA either 🙁
At least you guys won something 🙂
You won the opportunity to make your team’s rival or mine even better!
Terrific analysis on this Craig. Thanks for the time you’ve put in to research and review this.
Great work! So… Royce Lewis and Alex Kirilloff for Vladimir Guerrero? That seems reasonable but I wouldn’t make the trade (Twins). I’d rather spread the risk over two players at the high levels. At three-for-one of equal value, I’d lean towards a trade as the Twins GM. I’d give up less upside and pass on more risk of busts. Any thoughts, Craig?
I wouldn’t take that trade from the Jays perspective. Even if the $/WAR is fair at the end of the day, it’s too difficult to find truly elite pieces. You don’t give them away or move them unless you absolutely have to.
If it was pitchers I’d lean towards spreading the risk and taking two for one, because pitchers are fungible (not just the 5 rotation spots but increasingly rotation vs bullpen; innings are innings and you have to get them from somewhere). And pitchers have greater risk. But roster spots are limited, and positions on the diamond are even more so. Given the chance to concentrate as much WAR as Vlad represents into one position, I think you take it (and the risk), so if you’re the Jays you don’t even answer that phone call.
There was definitely some of that involved last off-season with the Cardinals interest in Donaldson. They were 2-4 WAR from all 8 positions, which is a nice position, but really needed that concentration Donaldson’s 6 would bring. Of course getting that marginal ~3 more WAR would be really expensive.
I am not sure I like how the values were scaled to fit within the list. It seems to me that if your research showed that the average value of a 60FV pitcher was $60M, then the average values of the 60 FV pitchers should come to ~$60M (unless there is reason to believe that this crop is weaker than normal, in which case they probably shouldn’t be 60FV) and the ~$54M average seems to differ significantly from that amount.
Eh, are 54 and 60 really all that different in an exercise like this? That amounts to around 2/3 of a WAR difference, spread over 6+ years.
I think the stranger result is in the 50FV tier with Hunter Greene at $31M > Banda ($9M) + Hansen ($10M) + Burrows ($10M). I know Craig wrote that Eric & Kiley have tiers within an FV, but at triple the value, why are these guys in the same FV?
I suppose the historic production of the place on the list (#131 vs #46) overwhelmed the FV rating.
If I’m Toronto, I can’t help but look at the $112M value given to a 70 FV and see half that amount for a 65 FV and not want to pick up the phone and find someone to give me $112M of value for that prospect. Very fine line between a 65 and a 70 with some subjectivity baked into it.
Agreed – something smells fishy about how ratings are assigned if the elite are truly that much more valuable. Not sure if 20-80 ratings are supposed to be linear or not (and if not, why not?), but if a guy like Vlad’s expected outcome is that much higher than someone like Tatis, there should be more of a ratings gap than 70 to 65.
AFAIK, the 20-80 are not linear but standard deviations.
41-59 would be +/- 1 SD or about 68% of the sample
60-69 would be between +1 and +2, about 13.5% [and 31-40]
70-79 would be between +2 and +3, about 2.4% [and 21-30]
80 would be > +3 SD, about 0.15% [and 20]
Why is the ARB discount necessary when you’re already discounting WAR to Present Value? Am I missing somehting?
The value has to be discounted to account for higher salaries during arbitration.
So “Value” is not absolute value in this case, it is Surplus Value?
Also, what drove you to use 8% as a discount rate? That is a huge factor in the valuation
Does someone with some time want to add these up and rank by total amount per team?
Apparently Craig did, because he posted it separately!
Just in case anyone was wondering how this matched up with Dave’s work from 2017 (though it was less granular only giving FV tier values)
Position Players:
70 FV – $107M (Dave), $112M (Craig)
65 – $70M, $62M
60 – $60M, $55M
55 – $38M, $46M
50 – $20M, $28M
Pitchers:
70 FV – $62M (Dave), $85M (Craig)
65 – $62M, $64M
60 – $34M, $60M
55 – $22M, $34M
50 – $14M, $21M
Other than Dave’s methodology having that steep drop off for 60 FV pitchers, and seemingly slightly undervaluing pitchers in general it’s pretty close. I wonder how much of the pitcher undervaluing is because they’re more likely to provide value in years after their team control (which Dave didn’t count?).
I also wonder how well Craig’s numbers match up in surplus trade valuations vs Dave’s? From what I’ve seen, I think Dave’s and the other older work has matched up pretty well, so maybe teams are more likely to bake that risk of a pitcher not providing value in their TC years?
Anyway, great work.
Keep in mind, those number were based off of $8M/win.
The biggest difference between this and Creagh/DiMiceli’s work (which was what Dave was citing) is that Craig’s method shows a big dropoff between 70 and 65 for everyone and a big dropoff for pitchers between 60 and 55, but not for hitters from 55-65. C&D say the big dropoff is between 60/55 for hitters and 65/60 for pitchers.
FWIW, this is Creagh and DiMiceli’s work for 2018.
http://www.thepointofpittsburgh.com/mlb-prospect-surplus-values-2018-updated-edition/
I suspect some of the difference here is that Craig splits off FV70s from FV65s. I like that part of Craig’s analysis better, but I think that the way that C&D calculate player value is much better. Craig seems to be really into discounting future years of performance, which I’m not totally sure is necessary.
Any reason behind 8% discount rate?
Seriously, the discount rate greatly affects the results and there is zero discussion of that assumption. This issue is potentially a major hole in the study. Craig, please respond.
edit/PS: I really appreciate the work. It’s just a very interesting assumption to gloss over.
Based on everything I’ve read about the methodology from the various authors involved in this research area, the 8% rate was used because it is the standard discount rate in economics and business settings. I’ve looked at this (and presented some results at Saberseminar a couple years ago), I think the 8% number is too low. My methodology was to use veteran-for-prospect trades to try to “solve” for the discount rate that would make the trades as even as possible. My sample size was pretty small, but when using 8%, the vast majority of trades ended up with more prospect SV than veteran SV, with most trades requiring at least a 50% SV overpay. A discount rate of 20% (which admittedly seems crazy) fits the data better.
I’ve asked about this before and never gotten a response. In short, using 8% discount rate for valuing minor league players makes no sense at all. They are far more risky “assets” that require a much larger discount rate (~20% for upper minors, ~40% lower minors?) like a startup company. If clubs are using 8% to value minor leaguers in their models when trading away MLB talent, then they are not getting enough back in minor league talent.
Maybe 8% for a player like Benintendi or Bregman that is young, but has performed at the MLB level. And lower rates for players like Altuve, Trout, Betts, etc that have a proven track record that is relatively predictable.
Using a 20% discount would cut every prospect’s value nearly in half. I’m not sure that really lines up with how teams value these players. Consider the money paid for Moncada ($60 M) and Robert ($52 M) or the bonus that Ohtani would have received without an international cap. Even going to the other end of the spectrum, look at the draft bonuses given to 40 grade players.
FWIW, Matt Swartz estimated at 10% discount rate when doing his free agency analysis last year. https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-do-baseball-teams-discount-the-future/
Thanks for the link, Dan! That was super helpful.
Craig, is there any way we could see a sensitivity analysis for the discount rate in these projections? Just using the Heyward example and plugging in 10% gives a change of over 1 PV WAR
switching to 10% would result in a drop of 9-10% in value.
That is assuming markets are rational and efficient. That Moncada was paid $60M does not mean that the present value of his “baseball cash flows” equals $60M. I mean, look at the Eric Hosmer contract.
I posted something like this in a chat comment but this is probably more appropriate post to discuss- using the $9M/WAR figure strikes me as misleading. In the respective chat – the question was about trading Goldy’s last year in Arizona for Peter Alonso (I believe). In the above table, I think it is estimating Alonso at $25M in surplus value- and the one year of Goldy at $20M-30M (4-5 WAR less 15M salary). So in reality this would be a fair deal. But if Alonso achieves his surplus WAR value mainly by being a 1-1.5 WAR player his first several years while in pre-arb salaries is that really worth it. That is an average or below average starter. To me, prospect values/surplus values seem inflated cause the first three years when compared to min salaries even mediocre players (.5-1 WAR) are achieving $4.5M-9M of surplus value (per year) according to this model. It seems the surplus value model should be based on something other than value over replacement and more commensurate with value over league average starter or something to that effect. Not sure if my explanation made sense but it is always something that has bothered me about these prospect value exercises.
The odds of Alonso posting 1-1.5 WAR every year is pretty low. When you trade for Alonso, you are getting a 50/50 shot at almost nothing, a 40% chance of a roughly average regular and a 10% chance at an All-Star. Putting it as an average factors for the various possible outcomes.
I think my use of peter Alonso might have obscured my question/point cause of his variability bars. Take someone like Ronald torreyes. Even as a prospect most agreed he wouldn’t be a league average starter or the % chances were very small. However, as a decent utility player he could be worth .5 to 1 war. And over first three years at league min salaries that could be as high as 25M in surplus value. I don’t see a situation where an impact talent like goldy on a friendly contract even for 1 year is dealt for a high likely utility player. That’s more my point. The 9M/war undersells impact utility it seems.
Apologies for harping on the specific examples, but Torreyes has put up 1.7 WAR so far, is already arb eligible, and projects pretty close to replacement level. That puts him roughly in line with a 45 prospect which seems pretty accurate.
True but that is in 600 plate appearances. So that is a function of teams composition and competitiveness. I would imagine prospect evaluations wouldn’t be scaled for playing time. Conceivably if torreyes maintained that performance but came up in like the marlins system his pre-arb years would have netted 5.1 WAR. Granted non-platooning would have eaten at some of the offensive value but possibly offset by increased defensive opportunities. So I doubt a significant difference. Call it even 4 WAR. That is still 30M+ of surplus value for a below starter level player.
This is a good discussion. And it goes back to the notion that the value of wins are non-linear in some or many subtle ways. Team composition or roster construction, playing time (related to the previous point), time value, star value, win curve, and several other factors must play into it.
To me there is two major issues: 1) there is an apples/oranges thing going on where war is a counting stat but a players value (or expected future value) is more of a rate value. In my example I used Torreyes but let’s use generic player x – if that players plays 50 games or 150 games he will accumulate more war (assuming he is at all better than replacement. So assigned 9M/war to their value should be scaled to war/600 it would seem to me. I don’t think that is done in most of these valuations. 2) I think most teams, especially playoff type teams, ascribe more $/war to players at or above 2 war per year. I guess this is the non-linear argument where the difference between a 0 war and 1 war player is not the same $9M as the difference between a 2 war and 3 war player. (Also as noted above all these war values should be scaled to same playing time). I think neither of these two key factors are considered.
If you’re considering past years’ rankings, what about players like Lewis Brinson who are just one year removed and struggled initially? (Or, for that matter, one- or two-year removed prospects who didn’t struggle, too.) What kind of value do they hold?
Awesome stuff, Craig! Thanks for the work and making it available. I had a question, for years where BA did not provide 20-80 grades for each player, did you use the…
70 – 2 / 65 – 5 / 60 – 16 / 55 – 20 / 50 – 57
…as exact–assigning precisely that many 70s, 65s, 60s etc.?
If not, did you use Jeff’s estimates or a combination of that with info from Kiley/Eric?
I’d be really interested to see if the “close calls” between buckets at the top dramatically impact the values.
Hi Craig, this is awesome! As you continue down this path, would it be possible to create a sortable database of historical scouting reports (from BA’s Top 100 etc.) taking into account prospect skillsets or lack thereof (batspeed, power, long swing, velocity, control, spin etc.). I’m very interested in seeing how well a singular attribute can predict future success for a player and perhaps discover an undervalued skill that is overlooked.
One thing the article doesnt mention, but something I would love to see is these ranking get adjusted for position specific since I would assume a 70 FV Catcher might be worth more then a 70 FV corner outfielder with the scarcity of MLB catchers close to that.
Yes, how well the scouting evals recognize positional scarcity would be fascinating.
The free agent market did it poorly when Matt Swartz studied that – 1B were a terrible deal for the team.
Is using FA WAR $ not flawed? I understand some standard $ has to be used, but a prospect with little to no MLB experience isn’t the same as a 29-30 something year old FA. Perhaps $9M/WAR is steep, but factoring in FA depreciation balances out the inflation added because of open market effect?
I feel like there’s a potential bias against the 50 and 55 FV pitchers based on how they wind up getting used. I assume many of those pitchers get slotted into reliever roles and pitch fewer innings, which depresses their values. Not sure it makes much difference here as you’re trying to predict how much value you can expect out of pitchers with those grades, but it could be something to think about going forward as we expect relievers to eat up more and more innings (and accumulate higher WARs) in the future?
So Brandon Lowe for Goldschmidt straight up?
Unless I’m missing something, wouldn’t teams’ development costs make your surplus value of prospects too high relative to the value of major league free agents?