Capitalizing on the Astros’ Success

Don’t allow the recent slump to throw you off. If the Astros were to keep winning games at their season pace, then by next Wednesday they’d have more wins than they did in all of 2013. By Thursday, a week later, they’d have more wins than they did in 2012, and by that Saturday, they’d have more wins than they did in 2011. By the penultimate day of August, they’d have more wins than they did a season ago. And then there would be 31 games left. The speed with which we adjust our expectations means there are people who are disappointed by how the Astros closed out the first half, but this has been a great season, a blessing of a season, a season of competitive baseball that even recently would’ve been almost impossible to imagine. For the Houston Astros, 2015 has been wonderful.

Which comes with the upside: unexpected success. Everybody loves unexpected success. It’s good for the players, it’s good for the coaches, it’s good for the fans, and it’s good for the organization. But this also comes with a challenge: figure out how to navigate the rest of the month. The Astros might’ve expected 2015 to be another year of building. Now they’re in position to trade from the long-term to try to improve the short-term. The Astros will be perhaps the most interesting team to watch in the days and weeks ahead, because if they wanted, they could be awful aggressive.

I have a poll for you. I should put it here, before I introduce any biases:

Those are the options. I suppose I left out the “sell” option, but all that would do is collect trolls in one place. I don’t want to collect them at all. So those are the reasonable options.

There are arguments for each. The Astros could elect to do pretty much nothing. They could go big, pulling off a blockbuster. Or they could compromise somewhere in the middle. We have time, so let’s run through the different potential courses of action.

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Stand pat

The majority of the regular season is complete, and the Astros have a good record. That already makes them likely to finish with a pretty good record. By our projections, the Astros will finish about two games behind the Angels in the West, but they’ll still make the playoffs by a three-game margin. Their playoff odds are 54%. There’s also another tab, based on season-to-date numbers instead of projections. By that page, the Astros are on course to end up tied with the Angels, and they’d make the playoffs by a two-game margin. Their playoff odds are 63%. So at the moment, it’s more likely than not that the Astros are playing after game 162.

And that might be enough. That might be a good enough goal, since there’s no predicting the postseason. The Astros organization is working with a long-term plan, and within a long-term plan, there’s little reason to get too focused on short-term improvements. Why get too invested in 2015? Why not just allow it to play out? Billy Beane probably wishes in retrospect that he would’ve stood pat last summer. Midseason trades can accomplish only so much, and this year in particular seems to be a heavy seller’s market. Which means pieces would cost more than usual, more resources, more prospects. For what? A potential extra win or two? An incrementally better chance at the World Series? The season already looks like it’s going to be successful. Why not be responsible and try to make sure the next few seasons are also successful? Cycles should be about multiple seasons.

Do something little

By and large, it’s been a successful 91 games. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for tweaks, especially given that other teams will probably be active. Lance McCullers is going to have his innings managed, and it’s unclear how he might hold up. It’s also unclear how Vincent Velasquez might hold up, and there’s no such thing as having too many decent arms in the bullpen. Maybe it would make sense to have a better lefty than Jon Singleton flipping between first base and DH. Set your sights on a third-tier starter or a role player, and while you’re not getting much, you’re also not losing much. You’re plugging a hole or two, and even in a seller’s market, only so much could be demanded for a limited rental. Everybody loves, and hates, a compromise.

Do something big

The Astros have been listed among the current frontrunners for Johnny Cueto. It’s no secret they’re looking for an arm, and behind Cueto, you find Jeff Samardzija and Scott Kazmir, among a few others. Let’s focus on Cueto, who’s about to become a free agent, and who’s due something like $5 million through the rest of the year. From here on out, one could reasonably project Cueto to be worth about 2.5 wins. To the Astros’ rotation, he’d be worth nearly two wins over what’s in there currently. Almost a two-win improvement, with Cueto. That eliminates the gap between the Astros and the Angels in the projected standings. It puts the Astros ahead of the Angels in the standings using season-to-date numbers. It greatly solidifies the Astros’ playoff chances, and it greatly improves their chances of avoiding the wild-card play-in. If any team is ever in a good position to trade for this kind of starting pitcher, it’s a team like the Astros.

You know why prices go up in July? In part it’s about the certainty of opportunity. By now, teams know more or less where they stand. The Astros plan to be competitive for a while, but a difference between the future and now is that now is fully known. This is a definite opportunity for the Astros to make a playoff run. There are no such guarantees about 2016 or 2017. Things happen. If the Astros pass up this opportunity, they could regret it. It might actually be the best chance they get, and what teams and fans want are titles.

It does look like a seller’s market. Maybe the Zack Greinke price isn’t enough to grab Cueto. But he is still a short-term rental, so the Reds couldn’t rob the Astros blind. The Astros could get the Reds’ attention by dangling, say, Mark Appel, Brett Phillips, and Max Stassi. And though other teams will be in the mix, that package could at least get the Astros most of the way there. Maybe the Reds are bigger fans of Domingo Santana. Maybe they’re bigger fans of Velasquez. The Astros could conceivably also look for something bigger and try to package Cueto with Jay Bruce. In that way they’d address both the rotation and the lineup, and while it would come at a cost, one could argue the whole point of a strong system is to allow for trades like this.

And the Astros have such a reservoir of young talent that no trade could drain it. Reduce it, but not drain it. The goal isn’t to maximize the level of young talent; the goal is to go deep in the playoffs. The Astros could do that in 2015, and it’s worth noting that if they don’t trade for Cueto, another American League contender probably would. Which would make the Astros’ odds lower. Every contending team wants to get better, and the Astros have the resources to get arguably the most better. (Samardzija would be a slightly cheaper backup plan.) (Kazmir would be cheaper still, and worse.)

Which all means this could be a hell of a half of a month. We’ll learn a little something about the Astros’ priorities. If the goal is to be a decent team every season, with a shot at seeing October, the Astros would have themselves a conservative deadline. If the goal is a World Series, though? Maybe they have a shot in 2016. They definitely have a shot in 2015. In baseball, any opportunity might be too good an opportunity to pass up.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

56 Comments
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ReuschelCakes
11 years ago

Here’s my conundrum… I definitively only want the Astros to make rational, multi-year moves… so the “big, win now” moves are out… and the smaller moves would be with assets that are semi-disposable and get back players with team control past 2015… said differently, “good luck.”

Yet… I think that the trade deadline is increasingly the best opportunity to “create” value for your team. There is no other market in baseball where natural buyers and sellers come together and have such wide objectives. If that’s the case, then logic would say that standing pat HAS to be a flawed strategy — why sit out of the most important annual marketplace?

So if I believe that the Astros need to be buyers or sellers (which I do, but you don’t have to…), I think they should be sellers. It’s an easy time to drop Feldman and his contract off — or find a more logical home for Lowrie — or maybe sell high on someone?

Controversial, I know… but it’s probably the right 2016-2020 decision.

John Mozeliak
11 years ago

“Capitalizing on the Astros Success” is the title of my soon-to-be released book.

Expect to hear from my lawyers, Jeff.

Brett W
11 years ago

This same logic also applies to the Cubs and Twins. Time to see how aggressive these organizations are ready to be.

Adam S
11 years ago
Reply to  Brett W

Not really. The Cubs are 8 games back of the Cardinals and playing for the Wild Card and really the second wild card, a coin flip for the playoffs to then battle the Dodgers and Nationals. Making a big move to ensure the Wild Card is idiotic.

The Astros have a real chance to win the division AND do so in a year the AL is particularly weak (or at least lacks strong teams).

The Twins are closer to the boat the Cubs are in but wouldn’t be surprised if they put themselves in the Astros boat.

I can’t fault a small move to get better this year for about 25 of the 30 teams.

Jackie T.
11 years ago
Reply to  Adam S

The Twins have a better record than the Astros.

Ian
11 years ago
Reply to  Jackie T.

You and your “facts”

ReuschelCakes
11 years ago
Reply to  Jackie T.

The Twins have 1/3rd of the odds to win their division than the Astros, per FG (11% versus 34%)

Tony
11 years ago
Reply to  Adam S

Making moves to get a Wild Card spot sure was a pretty idiotic move for the Giants and Royals last season.

McNulty
11 years ago
Reply to  Tony

yeah, because the odds of the wild card team making the World Series is clearly 100% now

Pedantic Whore
11 years ago
Reply to  Tony

The odds of not not making may not be higher.

Larry Bernandez
11 years ago
Reply to  Tony

it was also a great decision for Oakland last year.

Pete Carroll
11 years ago
Reply to  Tony

Oakland’s primary objective at the time was holding off LAA, not chasing a wild card spot. Obviously this didn’t work out swimmingly, but it seems the way it played out has changed the narrative or something.

Joe Joe
11 years ago

Phillips has been ranked around 25 on the mid-season prospect lists I’ve seen. Appel is in the 50s. According to the prospect values based on list ranking done by Creagh and DiMiceli, that would mean they are worth an estimated combined 10.2 WAR if Phillips is grouped with the 25-50 hitters or 15.9 WAR if grouped with the 10-25 hitters.

Cueto is projected to be worth around 2 WAR rest of the season. Could you be mildly overly estimating the haul the Reds should be expecting?

Flaming Moe's
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Cueto is a classic case of an fwar-underrated pitcher. Great at holding runners and generating weak contact. ZIPS sees his with a 3.3 FIP but only a 2.8 ERA in GABP. Making him significantly better than a 2 WAR pitcher

Jackie T.
11 years ago
Reply to  Flaming Moe's

He’s not going to be “significantly better” than 2 WAR over the next couple months.

And I’m not sure that saying his WAR doesn’t match his performance addresses the prospect values question.

Yosted
11 years ago
Reply to  Flaming Moe's

Since 2010, Cueto has been worth 18.2 fWAR, 22.2 by bWAR, and 26.3 by RA9.
Using those multiples and assuming a range of 90-100 innings, his projected WAR is:
fWAR: 1.8-2.0
bWAR: 2.2-2.4
rWAR: 2.6-2.9

Joe Joe
11 years ago
Reply to  Flaming Moe's

His RA9-WAR for his career is about 50% greater than his fWAR. Let’s use an expected WAR of 3 for Cueto. I expect Reds will get an expected surcharge for Cueto at deadline. I don’t expect the Astros to pay a 52 to 90 million dollar surplus value surcharge for a rental.

Jackie T.
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Exactly.

Yosted
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

In a rational market, sure. In what is shaping up to be a sellers market, forget it.

Ian
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

I believe most of those mid season rankings are excluding guys who are in the majors but would still qualify as prospects and don’t include recent draftees/July 2 signees. So both Phillips and Appel would probably drop some so I wouldn’t think it’s quite the same valuation.

But yeah, win-now trades are always one-sided like that.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Phillips has been ranked around 25 on the mid-season prospect lists I’ve seen.

Really? That seems pretty aggressive.

Joe Joe
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

BA 21
Sickels 29

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Interesting. Obviously I do not agree with them.

anon
11 years ago
Reply to  Joe Joe

Midseason prospect rankings overestimate because they don’t include new draft picks or last years J2 short season players (who have played around a dozen games or so). Those prospect values also assume growth without discounting future years or volatile results. Those values are a nice gauge but definitely overstate the value.

Ashitaka
11 years ago

Glad you finally got to the incredible depth they have in the minors. What people don’t always realize is that if they DON’T make a move or some moves, they’re going to get hammered in the Rule 5 this off-season. There are a LOT of guys that will need protecting, and there are several log jams in the system right now.

They shouldn’t go nuts, but if they don’t move some people, they’re going to lose some to the R-5 anyway. Might as well get something in return while you can.

Brett W
11 years ago
Reply to  Ashitaka

The problem with trading Rule 5 guys is that few teams have the 40-man flexibility to acquire multiple guys who need protection.

Kris
11 years ago
Reply to  Brett W

That would be true in a world where the 40th man on the Astros roster is an equal talent to the 40th man on the Brewers or Rangers rosters. But that’s not the case.

For example, the Astros DFA’d Carlos Corporan to remove him from their 40 man. Not only were the Rangers willing to place him on their 40 man roster, they were willing to give Houston Akeem Bostick in return, a 2013 2nd round pick who just turned 20 and is holding his own in the Cal League with a 43/8 K/BB ratio on the year.

If Houston were willing to trade a guy like Joe Musgrove (rule 5 eligible this year), I don’t think the Rangers would spend much time deciding if they should DFA someone like Kyle Blanks or Adam Rosales to add Musgrove to their 40 man roster.

That Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  Kris

Not to de-rail things here, but why exactly did the Rangers trade a live A arm for someone who can’t hit?

Hey That Guy
11 years ago
Reply to  Kris

The Rangers needed another backstop.

Corporan is a pretty good catcher, pitchers love him, clubhouses love him, and he’s a switch hitter who had decent success with the bat over the last few seasons in Houston.

It was a “lotto ticket” for the Astros in exchange for a very capable backup ML C.

Also, Rangers.

Ian
11 years ago
Reply to  Ashitaka

That’s a good point, Ashitaka. Do you have a list of the guys they need to add to the 40 man this offseason?

I know they lost DDJ in last years rule v.

Neil
11 years ago
Reply to  Ian

Just off the Top 30 list…

OF – Teoscar Hernandez
SS – Nolan Fontana
P – Joe Musgrove
P – Kyle Smith
P – Adrian Houser
P – Chris Devenski
OF – Andrew Aplin
P – Brady Rodgers
P – Jandel Gustave
P – Reymin Guduan
OF – Danry Vasquez (maybe, not sure on international 16 yr old signing rules)
P – James Hoyt

Johnny Ringo
11 years ago
Reply to  Ashitaka

This is a great point.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Ashitaka
Mike
11 years ago

Ask the 2012 Nationals how standing pat when they had a lot of young talent waiting went. There are no guarantees in this game

Nick
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Astros should buy, but not for rentals. Cueto isn’t a good fit – they should be targeting guys like Hamels, Shields, or Kimbrel, that can continue to be pieces beyond 2015.

Nick
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick

Whoops didn’t mean to make this a reply.

But while we’re here, the Nationals made the playoffs 3 out of 4 years after 2012, so not quite sure what your point is.

Nick
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick

*2 of 3, with 2015 looking likely on projections.

Pete Carroll
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick

I think Johnny Cueto (or Jeff Samardzija or Scott Kazmir) might be a better fit than Cole Hamels or James Shields would be. I doubt Jeff Luhnow et al would want to go multiple years on a SP making 20M plus AAV at this time really. Nothing wrong with a ‘rental’ anyhow.

Kyle
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Lol, this is not at all similar. The Nationals literally had the best record in baseball. They didn’t make any huge trades and were 1 strike away from beating the cardinals. They then proceeded to cash into the young talent they didn’t trade away and either acquired veterans with them or in the case of Rendon, called them up. That set them up for not only the short term but the long term as well.

The Astros making moves when their entire core will be around for years in an attempt to win now would be moronic.

Ryan
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Actually, I was thinking about the 2012 Nats when I suggested that the Astros make a small move, but that’s because the Nats traded a prospect for Kurt Suzuki, who ended up being extremely clutch down the stretch at a time when catcher was a black hole with Ramos on the shelf. The Astros would be wise to do something similar, i.e. shore up the obvious weak spots but resist the urge to do anything too drastic.

Kris
11 years ago

Wait, a package of Phillips, Appel and Stassi for MAYBE a dozen starts from Cueto IF he’s healthy? As in all three of them going to Cincinatti? No, thanks. Not interested.

So disappointing how expectations went through the roof in 91 games to a point where Houston would be willing to mortgage the future and narrow it’s window for marginally better odds.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Kris

Mortgage the future” is pretty ridiculous hyperbole. Appel has a high chance of becoming a back of the rotation starter but very little chance of reaching the top of a rotation, despite his lofty draft status. Stassi is having an atrocious season in AAA and probably isn’t a regular. Evidently Phillips has been getting a lot of hype, some of it deserved, but if he’s the best prospect you have to give up for Cueto then that seems like a very reasonable deal to me.

Pete Carroll
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

Largely agreed.

The overvaluing of prospects is as sure as the tide crashing against a pier this time of year though.

valuearb
11 years ago
Reply to  jdbolick

A cost controlled back of rotation starter is worth what, $30M to $40M? If you expect 10 WAR from Appel over 6 years thats $70M in value at current free agent costs. Assuming $20M in arbitration awards and discount remaining $50M for time and you don’t get anything less than $30M. Cost controlled league average or near league average players are extremely valuable. Nowhere near as much as a Carlos Correa, but still valuable.

Lets assume the other prospects are roughly equal in value to the comp pick you get when Johnny walks. Trading Appel alone for Cueto means giving up maybe 10 future wins for maybe 2 extra wins this year, and paying another $5M up front to boot, so a total cost of $35M-$45Mish for those two wins.

If those two wins are the difference between playoffs and no playoffs, or an early exit vs. a deep playoff run, they are clearly worth it. We don’t know if they will be, but we do know those wins should be worth substantially more than the league average $7M each. So it’s close, and it all depends on your expectations for Appel and the other two prospects. If your expectations are even moderately higher it’s not close at all.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  valuearb

I do not expect 10 WAR from Appel over 6 years. I expect him to be worth less than that.

wally
11 years ago

If the projected standings are to be believed, the Astros are about 2 wins below the Angels for the division, but also about 2 wins above the rest of the pack for the wild card spots. Given all that, I don’t see much logic in going all in now and giving up significant longer term pieces. You can only move the needle so much with 71 games to play. The best players on the market are only going to get you 1-2 extra wins, which puts you in a dead heat for the division and maybe keeps you 2-ish wins above the pack for the wild card spots (assuming 1 or 2 of the teams chasing them also make an addition or two).

The variation being what it is in team projections, it would seem to me that by doing nothing their 54% chance at the playoffs probably only drops slightly, as one or two other wild card teams narrow the gap a little, but the Astros still stay the favorites. The Astros also suffer from having few real holes in their lineup. DH is really the only spot that offers an easy upgrade path, as the rest of their position players at projected to be worth about 1 win. The rotation seems like the easiest spot to upgrade for them. The top 2 spots are fine, while the bottom 3 spots are somewhere between replacement and average pitchers. However, they do have 4 pitchers for those 3 spots. Of those 4, 2 of them probably do just fine. So, yeah, get a 3rd starter that might add .5 wins to your projection. Mitigate some risk that the back end of the rotation just total implodes. Maybe get a RHB version of Colby Rasmus to get some more platoons working between OF/1B/DH. All together maybe you can move the needle up 1 win and another 10+% of playoff probability. Even the big trade to get a Centro or Kazmir along with a smaller piece or two, probably only gets you 20% and the difference in what you give up is going to be huge.

This team’s competitive window is just now opening after a long, painful rebuild, why reduce your playoff probability in 2016-2018 and even beyond, buy giving up the top level talent required for the front line rotation pieces or a Ben Zorbist or something?

Jason
11 years ago

Hamels would be a great option. They would have to throw in a bit more than what was discussed for Cueto but they’d make the rotation better for 3-4 years… Hamels, Keuchel, McCullers looks like a pretty good rotation.

BY
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason

My guess is that they’re not targeting Hamels because they don’t think he’ll waive his no-trade to go to Houston. Why do all the work for a slim chance of convincing him? Doesn’t seem like Cole has much interest in going to Houston for the remainder of his contract.

Neil
11 years ago
Reply to  BY

yeah, that would be determined pretty early in the negotiations. Hamels has already come out and said he would be stupid not to consider the Astros.

Luis
11 years ago

Yeah, Appel plus Phillips for a 2 month rental. Not happening. That would be similar to the Randy Johnson trade in 98 (Garcia plus Guillen) Cueto is no Randy Johnson and even that trade would not happen in this day and age.

jdbolickMember since 2024
11 years ago
Reply to  Luis

Appel is no Garcia and Phillips is no Guillen.

Johnny Ringo
11 years ago

I sometimes think many of us fans have no idea how hard this is for GM’s.

Jeff notes above that if the Astros get Cueto, they get a 2 game bump theoretically.

However, what if the Angels grab Shark and Kazmir?

As a GM, you can go in early and have the market respond, or wait until later, but if you go early, and your division responds, are you really that much more ahead if you are in (already) what seems to be a probable tight race?

Goldstein's Dumb Fedora
11 years ago
Reply to  Johnny Ringo

Curious to what the Angels have to trade to possibly net that?

Kevin Goldstein's Dumb Fedora
11 years ago

The Astros are going to add a pitcher at some point. It will either be in trade or in free agency. I dont see them doing a rental because unless they sign that player they are more than likely giving up their first round pick and the allotment of money that goes with that pick. I wouldnt be surprised to see the Astros target Tyson Ross, who is still under team control. He will cost a lot, but the system is so dense its getting ridiculous.

AK7007
11 years ago

The safest thing is probably to look for as many players as possible that act as failsafes for when someone starts sucking or gets hurt, but as others above have pointed out – they have 40 man roster issues as it is due to the extreme depth in their minors. Kind of a good problem to have, but perhaps this is a time to try to condense multiple minor league depth pieces into a decent MLB player. I have no clue how they would do this.

baubo
11 years ago

One thing I feel people are overlooking is their injury situation. Springer and Lowrie, before their injuries, have been two of the best players on the team. In addition, this Astros team is not deep. They have a great farm, but that farm depth probably won’t translate to majors depth for at least another year. So I think whether Springer and Lowrie can come back healthy, and how fast they do so, will play a large part in ROS projections.

Overall, while as a fan I’m optimistic about the team’s future, I still somewhat feel that somehow this record has been a bit fluky, and that our biggest mid-season bullets are already spent with the callups of Correa/McCullers/Velazquez. I would be okay with a rental for an okay prospect, perhaps for Kazmir, but also willing to settle on a generic average or even below average starter who an give us maybe 0.5~1 extra win in projections. I feel the marginal pay from an extra win to extra 2 wins is really huge at this point, and I’m not willing to pay for that 2nd extra win.