Cardinals, Dodgers Achieve Backwards Baseball

It is a certain treat to be able to watch baseball players not know what they’re doing. It’s not something you hope for all of the time, because then you’re just watching the Astros, but on occasion, it’s a little spice that can go a long way. A little bit of absurdity to season what might otherwise be a relatively unwatchable game. So often, we marvel at how these players are extraordinary at what they do. We watch them because we can’t be them. We appreciate, then, the moments at which they’re most like us.

The most popular and highly-anticipated example is the case of the position player taking the mound. Position players are trained to be position players and not pitchers, but sometimes they have to pitch, either because it’s a blowout or because extra innings won’t end. They’ve all, of course, pitched in the past, but they aren’t trained major leaguers, so they’re basically us + talent. Another, less-discussed example is the case of the relief pitcher batting. Relief pitchers are trained to be pitchers and not batters, but sometimes they bat, either because it’s a blowout or the situation is desperate. They’ve all, of course, batted in the past, but they aren’t trained major leaguers, so they’re basically us + talent.

It’s fun to watch position players pitch. It’s fun to watch relief pitchers bat. Wednesday night in St. Louis, in a game between the Dodgers and the Cardinals, fans witnessed them both. And they witnessed them both happen at the same time.

The game wasn’t in extras — the game was a blowout. The Dodgers led 9-4 in the top of the ninth, then they started piling on runs. Six of eight hitters reached against Keith Butler, and the score was 13-4 when the Cardinals went to the bullpen. Or when the Cardinals went to the dugout, whatever. With two on and two out, backup catcher Rob Johnson took to the mound. The next batter due up was reliever Paco Rodriguez, and where ordinarily Rodriguez would be pinch-hit for, Don Mattingly didn’t see the sense in bothering, not with a nine-run difference. And so the showdown was allowed to proceed.

Plenty of times, relievers have faced backup catchers. But it’s usually the other way around. Johnson threw four pitches. These are those:

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Rodriguez never so much as thought about swinging. Chance for personal glory aside, there was more to lose than there was to gain, and in fairness, Johnson did get a fastball up to 90 miles per hour. What Rodriguez did pull off was a smooth-looking bat flip to himself after strike three. The idea, probably, was to demonstrate that he had actually held a baseball bat in his hands before. He knew at least one thing he could do with it.

That was it. Johnson’s entire relief appearance was an at-bat against a relief pitcher. Rodriguez didn’t even pitch in the bottom of the ninth, getting replaced by Carlos Marmol. Rodriguez didn’t have to feel bad, because he isn’t supposed to bat. Johnson probably didn’t get to feel good, because he pitched to a reliever. Maybe the guy who feels worst is Keith Butler, because Mike Matheny didn’t trust him to pitch to a reliever in a nine-run game. He was replaced not by another major-league pitcher, but by the guy who caught him in his previous appearance.

As it happens, this wasn’t Johnson’s first big-league relief outing. On May 18, 2012, he threw a 1-2-3 eighth against the Blue Jays, getting two pop-ups and an Eric Thames strikeout. Johnson has now pitched to four batters, retiring all of them and striking out half of them. Wednesday night, he threw a little harder.

Something a few people noticed about Johnson: he was a quick worker. He didn’t dilly-dally on the mound, soaking up the experience; he got the ball and he threw the ball, not unlike, say, a catcher. His pace was measured at 12.3 seconds. In his outing last year, his pace was measured at 12.6 seconds. The major-league average is much much higher. But this isn’t unique to Johnson, because position players as a group tend to set a rapid-fire tempo. Since 2008, position players have averaged a pace of 15.7 seconds, and that includes a few high-leverage appearances where the players slowed down. Jamey Carroll pitched with an 11.5-second pace. Joe Inglett pitched with a 10.3-second pace. Kevin Cash pitched with a nine-second pace. Part of this, probably, is because position players aren’t out there looking to deceive. The rest of this, probably, is because the game is out of hand so why be a jerk?

Obviously, it’s rare for a position player to pitch to a reliever. It’s rare, but it’s not unprecedented. Following is a table of all such instances since 2000, compiled tediously, with what I can best describe as an excited frown:

Position Player Year Reliever Result Inning
Rob Johnson 2013 Paco Rodriguez Strikeout 9
Chris Davis 2012 Darnell McDonald DP 17
Darnell McDonald 2012 Chris Davis Groundout 17
Skip Schumaker 2011 Blake Hawksworth Strikeout 9
Wilson Valdez 2011 Carlos Fisher Pop out 19
Joe Mather 2010 Raul Valdes Groundout 19
Felipe Lopez 2010 Raul Valdes Single 18
Ross Gload 2009 Dale Thayer Groundout 9
Robin Ventura 2004 Derrick Turnbow Fly out 9
Mark Loretta 2001 Chris Nichting Strikeout 8
Desi Relaford 2001 Jose Nunez Strikeout 9
Keith Osik 2000 Jose Rodriguez Strikeout 9
Frank Menechino 2000 Bobby Chouinard Single 8
Derek Bell 2000 Todd Erdos Line out 8

Instantly, you’ll think to apply some asterisks. Chris Davis and Darnell McDonald, certainly, were relief pitchers, but they aren’t relief pitchers, or even pitchers at all. That was just a…weird afternoon. Three other examples took place in the later extra innings, when the situations came out of desperation. Look extra close at the middle of this table. On April 17, 2010, the Mets beat the Cardinals 2-1 in 20 frames. All three runs were scored in the 19th and 20th. For the Mets, Raul Valdes threw two innings of scoreless relief. In the 18th, he batted against infielder Felipe Lopez. In the 19th, he batted against infielder Joe Mather. In the same game in 2010, the same reliever faced two different position players pitching. Both times, Valdes put the ball in play.

Before Johnson and Rodriguez, the last time a normal position player pitched to a normal reliever was August 23, 2011, when Skip Schumaker struck out Blake Hawksworth. Hawksworth took all five pitches, and then in the bottom of the ninth, Schumaker faced Hawksworth the ordinary way and singled. The last time a normal reliever swung at a position player’s pitch when the game wasn’t in extras and desperate was May 22, 2009, when Dale Thayer knocked a 2-and-0 tapper back to Ross Gload. That game happened to be Thayer’s big-league debut.

Rob Johnson, most of the time, is a catcher. Paco Rodriguez, most of the time, is a reliever. Ordinarily, you wouldn’t think anything would be written about an at-bat between the two. But sometimes things aren’t ordinary.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

25 Comments
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Xeifrank
13 years ago

it was hard to tell with the grainy video, but was the second pitch called a strike?

Henry
13 years ago
Reply to  Xeifrank

Yes, although it looks a little low to me.

Anon
13 years ago
Reply to  Henry

The lesson there? There are no low pitches in a 9 run game with a position player pitching and a pitcher hitting.

MrKnowNothing
13 years ago
Reply to  Henry

Kinda feel like in that situation, if it’s even close, the ump is calling it a strike.

gary meadows
13 years ago

Nice work Jeff. Baseball sure is funny sometimes.

As an aside, I was at the game last night and I remember watching the April 17, 2010 game on TV. I’m pretty sure LaRussa just wanted that game to end (last 3IP by Lopez and Mather?). Two of the most tedious baseball experiences in my life, save the position players pitching. I do love seeing that.

Billy
13 years ago
Reply to  gary meadows

Yeah, I’ll always remember that 4/17/10 Mets vs. Cardinals game too. I had just gotten in the car to drive home from my cousin’s house in PA back to NY that night and I put the game on thinking “Aw, it’s the eighth inning. I won’t have this for long.” Little did I suspect. The game kept me entertained for the entirety of the three hour drive and was still going when I pulled into the garage and I waited until between innings to run in and turn it on in the house.

Wil
13 years ago

I’ll never forget reliever Chris Resop playing the outfield for the Braves in 2008.

Scraps
13 years ago

It’s fun to watch relief pitchers bat.

I don’t think so; at least, it’s fun to watch pitchers bat, period, which is to say, not at all. The fact that relievers pitch is rarer doesn’t make it interesting (to me).

On the other hand, position players pitching is fascinating to me.

Hurtlocker
13 years ago

I’d like to see a position player with a rag arm pitch, maybe some 70 mph fastballs. That would be entertaining.

Hurtlocker
13 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlocker

After all, Rob Johnson’s 90mph fastball is about 8-9 mph faster than Barry Zito’s.

Jay29Member since 2025
13 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlocker

I’d pay to see an inning of RP Johnny Damon.

EDogg1438
13 years ago
Reply to  Jay29

“Juan Pierre warming in the pen”

George Alexander
13 years ago

Let’s just take a moment to remember that Wilson Valdez shook off Dane Sardinha while pitching to Joey Votto in that game.

Ryan
13 years ago

That is fantastic.

TKDC
13 years ago

His bat flip to self was good, but not perfect. I give it an 8.7

Ruki Motomiya
13 years ago

Now Rob Johnson just needs to pitch and catch at the same time. A one-man battery!

BipMember since 2016
13 years ago

I would think it is worth mentioning that the last time a dedicated position-player pitched against a dedicated reliever – Skip Schumaker agaist Blake Hawksworth – was also an instance of a Cardinals position player pitching to a Dodgers reliever.

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13 years ago

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13 years ago

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Antonio Bananas
13 years ago

I love interesting stuff like this. I watched a AA springfield cardinals game earlier this year. Ruben Gotay (yes, that Ruben Gotay) hit a 3 run 8th inning homer to send the, into extras. Then later came in to pitch in something like the 20th. He ended up getting the loss. I thought it was interesting that he probably had the biggest WPA offensively and the worst pitching.

KJOK
13 years ago

Just to defend Keith Butler, he had thrown 42 pitches, which was getting way beyond his normal 20 or so, which is why he came out.

And Pitch/FX called Johnson’s first two offerings ‘change-up’s, even though I’m sure they were 4 seam fastballs like the last 2 pitches. The first one he was just getting warmed up at 85 mph, but the second was 88 mph – the same speed as the 3rd pitch. I’m guessing it was the trajectory that matches a ‘normal’ pitcher’s changeup that fooled pitch/FX on those first two.

Ballfan
13 years ago

fun article

Dave Cornutt
13 years ago

In that Baltimore-Boston game last year, Chris Davis wound up being the winnning pitcher, and Darnell McDonald was the losing pitcher. A couple of interesting bits of trivia about that game: Davis started the game as the DH and then moved to the mound, while McDonald had entered the game as a pinch runner for DH David Ortiz, became the DH, and then moved to the mound. I’ve seen games in which the DH moved to a position, forcing the pitcher to bat for himself, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game where the DH came to the mound, much less both DH’s in the game doing it. Also, Davis’ pitching was much better than his hitting that day; at the plate he was 0 for 8 with five strikeouts.

The date of the game was May 6, for anyone that wants to look it up. The box score is entertaining.

Dave Cornutt
13 years ago
Reply to  Dave Cornutt

Replying to myself: I just checked Baseball Reference, and it appears that that game is the only game in the DH era in which a player has appeared at both DH and pitcher in the same game.

Gyre
13 years ago

a really slow day. The Cards might think about keeping Johnson in the pen, it seems that their pitching took a couple hits…otoh, the Cards can lose a bunch of games and still be in the playoffs.