Chris Sale and Leverage
Over the weekend, Chris Sale decided that he really didn’t want to wear the White Sox’ throwback uniforms, believing they were too heavy to pitch in and might impact the team’s performance. Unhappy with the thought of having to wear them anyway, Sale went all Edward Scissorhands on the jerseys, forcing the organization to wear a uniform with which he was more comfortable; as a result, Sale was sent home from the clubhouse and suspended five days for insubordination.
The timing was particularly poor for the White Sox, who had just started listening to offers for their ace, realizing that they probably aren’t going to make a second-half run that would justify the team’s win-now moves over the last 18 months. Instead of showing scouts why he is still one of the best left-handed starters in baseball, Sale reminded everyone that he has a bit of a temper, lashing out at the organization for the second time this year; he was one of the most vocal critics in the Drake LaRoche matter during spring training.
In the aftermath of the kerfuffle, I’ve seen a few comments about Sale’s outburst reducing the White Sox’ leverage, opening the door for other teams to swoop in and pick him up at a discount. But thankfully for Rick Hahn, I don’t expect that the weekend drama will have any real effect on the kinds of offers the Sox will be fielding for Sale this week, because in baseball (as in most markets), leverage is much more about a player’s value to a potential buyer than to the seller. Even if Sale came out and demanded a trade this week, the price the White Sox could extract from opposing teams probably wouldn’t change.
When the concept of leverage is discussed in baseball trade terms, it’s often framed from the perspective of the seller. For instance, Player A is a free agent in a couple of months, so Non-Contending Team B has to trade him before they lose him for just a compensation pick this winter, and thus they’ll take less than if they had him under control for future years and could keep him for themselves. While that’s a true statement, that’s also not really how market pricing works.
In reality, prices are set by the buyers, not the sellers, and Sale’s relationship with the White Sox front office has almost no bearing on the calculations buyers will do to figure out what they should pay to acquire him. If you’re the Red Sox, Rangers or the Dodgers, or any other team kicking the tires on Sale, there’s only a minimal difference between the White Sox keeping Sale and trading him to another team; in both cases, the White Sox’ leverage in negotiations with that team is that they don’t get to have Sale in their rotation; which other rotation he’s in, whether it’s Chicago’s or some other team, is of less consequence.
As long as there are multiple interested buyers, the desire of the seller to make a move is of minimal consequence to the sale price. Even if both the Dodgers and Red Sox called the White Sox on Sunday and tried to buy low on Sale after the jersey destruction incident, all the White Sox have to do is inform each party that there are other bidders in the picture, and as long as that’s a credible claim, both teams should then rationally improve their low-ball offers up to the point at which they believe they’d still be better off making the deal than letting him go elsewhere. Either team would be foolish to stand pat with a 75-cents-on-the-dollar offer if they suspected another team was offering 80-cents-on-the-dollar. Getting Sale for even 99-cents-on-the-dollar is a better outcome for their team than letting him go elsewhere, after all.
And we can see how this works in our own day-to-day lives. When you go the grocery store, the retailer doesn’t try to convince you that if you don’t buy their gallon of milk, they’ll just have their employees drink it instead. In fact, they just slap expiration dates right on the milk cartons, which is the dairy equivalent of being designated for assignment. The leverage the store holds over you has nothing to do with the milk’s utility to themselves, but instead, entirely to do with its utility to you, and the fact that if you don’t buy that particular gallon of milk, someone else will. As long as there are people demanding milk, the store will set a price that reflects the market price that people will pay for it.
Now, that isn’t to say that a player’s price is never influenced by that player’s value to the seller. If there aren’t multiple interested buyers, then the only leverage the seller has left is the threat of keeping the player, essentially setting themselves up as a second “buyer” of the player. But if you have an aging veteran heading towards free agency playing on a non-contender, the single buyer may realize that’s not a credible alternative option, and that the seller would accept whatever price the lone buyer is offering. At that point, the seller really would lose leverage if the player demanded a trade, because there wouldn’t be an alternative to force the buyer to up their bid.
But as long as there are two or more interested buyers, a team’s desire to retain a player is of minimal importance to the price the buyers should pay. So as long as Chris Sale can still pitch effectively, he can basically say whatever he wants about the team’s jerseys, their kid-in-the-clubhouse policies, or anything else about the organization. He could call a press conference and say he won’t pitch for the White Sox again. As long as the Red Sox, Rangers and Dodgers think those issues would die in Chicago and wouldn’t carry over to his performance after changing organizations, then his value to those teams remains essentially unchanged. And they’d bid accordingly, topping each other’s offers until the best deal on the table reflected the market price for Sale’s services.
Of course, player actions certainly can influence their trade value. Aroldis Chapman dramatically reduced the demand for his services this winter with his domestic-violence incident, and the Yankees were able to get him for next to nothing because a lot of interested parties walked away. So if Sale did something that caused there to be fewer interested buyers, then yeah, that would do real damage to the kind of return the White Sox could get. He probably can’t call a press conference and say that the Red Sox and Dodgers suck, and that he would only pitch for the Rangers. That would definitely hurt his trade value.
But as long as he doesn’t drive buyers away, his relationship with the White Sox is mostly immaterial to the price for which the White Sox can ask. It absolutely could have an effect on the team’s willingness to make a deal, but the White Sox shouldn’t have to take a reduced package of talent just because of this weekend’s drama. And when you see what a half season of Aroldis Chapman just cost, they’re definitely not going to be offering anyone a discount on three and a half years of an elite starting pitcher.
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Sale + Quintana for the rest of the Red Sox farm system
I was seriously thinking about this exact thing driving into work this morning. Like the Trout for Correa + prospects deal someone threw out a little while ago, this almost seems like a win-win. Just too radical to really happen.
Red Sox don’t need 2 pitchers. Even acquiring 1 means the Sox have to move E-Rod. But Price, Wright, Porcello and Pom are all locks for the starting rotation.
I was going to say the same thing. Boston has legitimately no use for both of them at this stage.
Also, no deal that empties Boston of Moncada AND Benintendi (to say nothing of other pieces too) is a “win win”, because that means Boston just subtracted two near-certain 2017-2021 starters with minimal salaries plus other pieces for 1 or 2 players. Unless it involves Trout, that’s not going to make Boston better overall.
Could we (the Red Sox) get that same offer for Mike Trout? They might take that deal. That is, Red Sox entire farm system for Mike Trout.
But seriously if I’m White Sox I’m trying to get all the top 3 from Red Sox for Sale and then look to Dodgers for Urias + or Brinson/Gallo/Profar for Quintana
If you sell one, I think you have to sell the other. It makes the most sense to have those deals at the finish line before one is completed. Rebuild the whole farm system in one day.
Or at least make sure to trade Sale first. Don’t want him to get hurt using scissors while a deal is in the works.
I’m not so sure. Quintana is pitching every bit as well as Sale and is under control through 2020. You could keep him to front your rotation ahead of Rodon, Shields, and Gonzalez, and you’ve still got Anderson, Abreu, Eaton, and Zack Collins, plus at least two elite position prospects from the Sale trade who’d probably be ready within a year. That’s a 2018 team that could be interesting with a free agent or two to supplement.
Sox fan here. I would absolutely hate to see Quintana and Sale go. I was on the train to the game on Saturday when they said he was scratched… against their division rival, also ahead of them in the WC race. I was certain he was traded and was faux-depressed for the next 45 minutes. That is, until I saw the reports of him cutting jerseys, and a half hour of convincing from my friend that the jersey thing COULD be a true story [because at the time I thought it was bs with all the trade rumors going around].
All that being said… If losing those two got us Benintendi, Moncada, Kopech, and Urias +(Bellinger maybe?), with Rodon and Fulmer in the future — I wouldn’t bat an eye. Peace out Sale and Q!
Although Sale isn’t being traded to Boston for near-certain, I can at least encourage White Sox fans to limit their dream scenarios to those without both Benintendi AND Moncada. Boston isn’t trading both, because it has a ton of room for at least one. If you can find a package that suits your fancy limited to just one (and that shouldn’t be hard), that should be your limit.
I think you underestimate the value of sale here. Chapman just got traded for two top100 prospects (one of them a top30) and he is a reliever with half a year of contract.
Kimbrel got traded for two top50 prospects.
Hamels (older and more expensive than sale) got three top100 prospects
Miller (much worse than sale) got a prospect similar Level to moncada, a top100 prospect and a Young MLB Player in inciarte
Just look what the market paid and you see that moncada and bentendi is not really a super high Price. Sale is in his prime, one of the best pitchers AND has a Team friendly contract.
Getting two top20 prospects for that is not asked too much considering the other mentioned deals. of course that doesn’t mean Boston is (or should) actually pay that Price) since they already got another pitcher but just one of Moncada and benitendi and a lower Level top100 prospect is not Close to being enough.
If the red sox are not willing to pay the Price someone else is going to do it.
of course the White sox could also step away from asking for a top guy and instead ask for 4-5 50 to 100ish guys but I’m not sure they are willing to do that.
an alternative would be just benitendi and 3 other top100 guys (50-100 ranked) but have the red sox enough of those?
Myself, I think the oddity of it does reduce Sale’s trade value some. GMs and managers really hate star players showing them up, and Sale’s now done it twice in 5 months. For basically silly reasons.
I believe I read somewhere that the jersey cutting is a straw that broke the camel’s back thing. His attitude was that he believed the ChiSox were more interested in PR and sales than wins, and this was the latest gesture that showed that. So yes, he blew up over the jerseys, but you’d have to be borderline insane to throw a tantrum like that JUST over jerseys.
I think about what I once heard about the Patriots; malcontents and troublemakers will cause far less of a problem if they are dealt to a winning team with a major veteran presence. The Red Sox might be the best fit; regardless, I’m glad the White Sox called him on his dick move.
An awful Red Sox clubhouse got Francona fired just a few years back. Ortiz and Pedroia were unable from preventing that miasma from developing. Don’t know that the Red Sox have ever been considered a solid clubhouse. Just go back one year, even.
Boston has had plenty of good clubhouses. There have been some bad ones too, though those tend to be connected to losing. It seems 2 or so of the really wrong guys can mess up a group full of a bunch of the right guys, in any event.
Want a solid Boston clubhouse? 2013, for starters.
Or maybe you’re just creating a narrative to fit how they played on the field. The winning teams had great clubhouses, the losing teams were toxic!
Amazing how winning fixes chemistry, isn’t it?
Winning fixes EVERYTHING.
Whatever anyone thinks of the Boston clubhouse (who currently have only 3 players from the fried-chicken-and-beer team, Ortiz, Pedroia and Buchholz), my other point stands; Sale needs to be on a team where he does not feel so bold as to pull stunts like he did.
While Sale seems to be a bit of an asshole, it doesn’t really seem like a smart idea to have uniforms that your starting pitchers explicitly thinks will negatively affect his performance. I cannot understand the rationale behind using heavy, throwback uniforms when your best player hates them.
He’s a just a player. He should wear whatever uniform the team gives him and not act like a petulant child.
Anyone who paid attention kind of already knew that Sale was a bit nuts (even before the Laroche thing) so this really shouldn’t be a surprise, let alone affect his value.
Nothing wrong with being a bit nuts–as long as you’re cutting up OBJECTS rather than people, for instance. One makes you a “character” and the other a felon.
Love the milk analogy, but don’t underestimate the White Sox organization’s ability to completely screw this up.
“As long as there are multiple interested buyers” [or the DBacks]…. FIFY.
I don’t think the milk analogy works here.
I don’t give a rat’s ass if me not buying milk allows Joe Schmo to buy it. And if his buying it drives the price up, I will, and I contend most feel the same way, continue to not care.
Regarding Chris Sale, there is only one of him. That he would go to the Dodgers affects the Giants, and thus, the Giants would have incentive to raise the bid.
I’m not going to try to outbid Joe on a carton of milk, I’ll either go buy it elsewhere, or not at all. It doesn’t matter either way. It does matter, in a baseball sense, if someone outbids you for Chris Sale.
But for all I know, I could be misunderstanding it.
Think of the players as the cartons, not the milk. The player cartons contain wins, which is the actual product teams are buying. They come in different sizes — pint, half-gallon, gallon — and flavors — 1%, 2%, Whole — but in the end, they are mostly interchangeable.
Chris Sale is just the label on the package. Sure, there might not be other Chris Sales out there, but there are other players who add wins, and teams can just substitute into those wins if Sale isn’t available/traded elsewhere. Maybe he’s the hormone free organic artisanal free range milk that you’ll pay the most for, but there’s plenty of other generic milk for sale.
I am also hormone free, but very cheap.
Maybe I’m not talking about “leverage” any more here, but maybe you aren’t either … agree that it’s useful to think of Sale as a carton … but I think of the tantrum as like a bad smell. Oops maybe this milk spoils easily. That’s going to lower the price I’d pay for it, maybe I’ll even spend 5 minutes of time=money to go next door and pay a bit more for an appropriately-priced carton with less spoilage concern … yeah you had leverage over me with your “no other milk has so many strikeouts per ounce!” pitch, but, you lost that leverage when the bad smell led me to discount your product back into the range where competitors can compete
It’s doubtful that his “bad odor” detracts teams.
Look at all the potential suitors for Aroldis Chapman. Yankees moved him for a great price.
If teams are willing to overlook domestic violence, they’ll certainly overlook a guy who had a hard time getting along with his front office. (Not to mention, not all front offices handle conflict the same way.)
I really think we’re pressing this Milk analogy further than it needs to go.
Either that, or I demand all MLB-related actions be somehow crammed into this milk-world. “You see, a PTBNL is like a small glass with no label, and you can’t drink it yet. And the Rule 5 Draft is when you buy half-used milk cartons that other people put back on the store shelf because their refrigerator was full!”
Zach Walters is Blue Bell ice cream.
I wanted to extend the metaphor further, for example we are assuming all players are containers for cow milk, right? But, what if they comprise goat milk, human milk, or almond milk… the consumer teams choose or buy different milk-wins. The container-player could be cardboard or plastic, or the mammary itself.
“They come in different sizes — pint, half-gallon, gallon — and flavors — 1%, 2%, Whole — but in the end, they are mostly interchangeable.”
If they were really interchangeable, there would only be one size and type. They are not interchangeable, at least as far the market is concerned. Some buyers may not care as long as it is milk but others most certainly do.
A 3 WAR shortstop and a 3 WAR starting pitcher are not worth the same to all teams.
It’s reasonable to say that it wouldn’t impact the price teams would be willing to give up. But what it *might* change is the price the White Sox will accept. You’ve brought this up in the trade value piece – the idea of deadweight loss in trading a player under control for a while longer, and particularly trading stars, based on the premise that a club will be higher on their own guys than others. That deadweight can be overcome by a buyer’s local win leverage being greater, sure, but it doesn’t mean that’s inherently or always the case.
Basically, this is to say that the analysis was correct – few are going to offer noticeably less. But a similar argument might put say that the White Sox are now more likely to trade him by eroding the deadweight on the CWS end. And that seems *also* correct.
Right; this could definitely change the likelihood of a trade. That’s different than the price paid, but it’s not like his fallout with management could have zero impact overall. It just shouldn’t impact what BOS/TEX/LAD should offer.
Sale was just being an self centered asshole, there are many more adult ways of dealing with a problem than he chose. Some players, Milton Bradley, Carlos Zambrano are just fricking crazy and aren’t worth the trouble. One off year for Sale and he will be on a downward spiral out of baseball.
Yeah, either that or something else will happen.
Considering that he committed assault, I don’t get the Bradley comparison.
I guess I’m not sure why the Sox would WANT to trade Sale (unless he’s really kind of nuts, then all bets are off, but this jersey thing doesn’t sound like that to me). He’s really, really, really good and signed for another 3 years after this at ridiculously cheap prices. Sure they could trade him for some top-notch prospects, but is that really equal value?
One thing I think this site often fails to account for is certainty. As much as we can predict the future, Sale is going to be some level of good the next 3 years. It might be 18 WAR or it might be 12 WAR, but he’s going to be very good (with the usual injury caveat). The prospects. . . .wellll, it’s hard to say. Lots of hype today about Alex Bregman who is the #1 prospect in the minors (officially in the majors now as I type this). Mosey on over to the “Projecting Alex Bregman” piece and you see the Mahalanobis comps for Bregman are exciting – THome! Gordon! Longoria! Konerko (sorry Sox fans can’t put an exclamation point here), Even Carlos Lee and Michael Cuddyer were decent for a few years. But wait, there’s other names there – Adam Piatt (ugh), Brandon Wood (double ugh). Guys that never panned out. Prospects are great and every team needs to accumulate them, but they have a much wider range of outcomes than veterans who’ve actually done it before. I’m all for getting rid of the Proven Veteran because I’d rather see some kid get a shot than watch Jered Weaver throw batting practice fastballs or watch Jimmy Rollins run out yet another weak grounder.
I think this site gets a little too amped up over prospects at the expense of really good players. Everyone is amazed at the return today for Chapman, but seriously, 3 of the 4 guys coming back have never played a single day in the majors. (Side note: with the Yankees getting Warren back in the Chapman deal, the Yankees have now effectively traded 4 2nd level prospects who probably won’t amount to much and Brendan Ryan for Starlin Castro (signed for another 4 years), a top 30 prospect, and 2 other 2nd level prospects. Pretty savvy.)
I look at trading Sale as similar to trading Goldschmidt or Longoria or Kershaw or Trout to name 4 stars signed for the next few years to reasonable deals. Yeah you could do it, but are you ever really going to get equal value for them?
The usual injury caveat is a big one, though. I saw this picture on the ESPN home page and it blew my mind. The stress that pitchers put their arms through is insane.
Those kinds of trades will rarely be “equal” value. If the prospects pan out then that team comes out well ahead simply due to how inexpensive those years of team control are, while if the prospects don’t pan out that’s obviously a loss. What occasionally gets left out of the calculation is that the money saved on those prospects who pan out then needs to be spent relatively wisely in order to take full advantage of that surplus value.
A 5 WAR player on what is otherwise a 70-win team is no better than a 0 WAR player. The White Sox’s moves this past offseason indicate that they don’t consider themselves contenders; they traded for James Shields as an opportunistic move when they happened to win a bunch of games, and it’s a low-risk move that doesn’t blow up when they unsurprisingly fall out of the division race.
The White Sox roster isn’t terribly talented, and the farm system is weak. If you can’t surround a great player with decent players, you might as well trade the great player for guys who should be decent players and hope that one of them turns out to be a great player.
“In reality, prices are set by the buyers, not the sellers….”
No, no, no. Good grief, no. Prices are set by both buyers and sellers. It’s called supply and demand, not demand. They say that anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but it is also what someone is willing to sell it for.
it is a good point that a team that has fallen out of playoff contention and has a pending free agent is motivated to sell. The player’s value to the selling team is minimal. However, it is typically not zero. Carlos Beltran is not going to be traded for a box of baseballs and two free passes to the Ice Capades, not matter if the Mets decide that is the price.
What Chris Sale did makes him seem like a bit of a head case, which in fact he is. It does reduce his value to both the White Sox and potential suitors. It may not reduce his value enough to matter in this particular situation given he is a rare luxury item, but it does reduce his value. There have been many major league players were a bit crazy. For some of them, like Steve Carlton, it didn’t matter all that much. For others, it eventually destroyed their careers. The market notices these things.
” When you go the grocery store, the retailer doesn’t try to convince you that if you don’t buy their gallon of milk, they’ll just have their employees drink it instead.”
Actually, that’s always a threat. A grocery store giving away free stuff that they cannot sell to their employees is a nice way to retain employees. That has value, perhaps more than what selling at a lower price would be. In addition, if they find that the milk is constantly spoiling on the shelves, they will either lower prices or stock less of it. The threat that if you don’t buy it at the price we want, we will no longer sell it at all is ever present.
My serious question is this: after the deal with LaRoche’s kid, the nasty comments about the White Sox hierarchy and now with the uniform slashing, is Sale an immature jerk, just crazy, or might he be a substance abuser? Because none of that was rational behavior.
RE: ” When you go the grocery store, the retailer doesn’t try to convince you that if you don’t buy their gallon of milk, they’ll just have their employees drink it instead.”
I think it usually helpful to think of baseball trades as pure auctions, and not a market as we usually think of it. MLB wins are not cartons of milk, they are faberge eggs. Chris Sale may be the freaking Mona Lisa. Buyers do not get to determine the prices of these things. And if you don’t offer the right price, sellers have every incentive not to sell.
I would love a piece like this but explaining why foreign free agents with huge signing bonuses are more valuable than their price tags because only a few teams can sign them originally (because a lot of teams just can’t afford the upfront costs). It seems that just about the same logic applies, but maybe I’m missing something.