Cooperstown Notebook: The 2023 Progress Report, Part III

Shohei Ohtani is a unicorn. No player in 20th- or 21st-century AL/NL history, not even Babe Ruth in his last two seasons with the Red Sox (1918–19), has been able to sustain regular duty in both a rotation and a lineup over a full season, let alone excel at both endeavors. At this writing, the 29-year-old superstar leads the majors in homers (34), slugging percentage (.665), and wRC+ (179), and he’s got the AL’s second-best strikeout rate (32.2%) and lowest batting average against (.191). He currently ranks among the AL’s top 10 in Baseball Reference’s position player WAR (4.0, fourth) and pitching WAR (2.5, ninth), and just over a full win ahead of Ronald Acuña Jr. for the major league lead in combined WAR. Over the past two and a half seasons, he’s been worth 25.0 WAR, 5.9 more than the top position player, Aaron Judge.
Some day, Hall of Fame voters will have to reckon with Ohtani. If he reaches the kind of career numbers that Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS system forecast for him over the winter — 1,809 hits, 404 homers, 124 OPS+, 158 wins, 2,329 strikeouts, 122 ERA+, and 72.1 WAR — the decision will be a no-brainer. I’m already of the mind that if he gets to his 10th season (2027) and is still doing double duty, he’ll have my vote when he lands on the ballot regardless of what the numbers say, because what he’s doing is so utterly remarkable. WAR and JAWS weren’t really built to handle a case like his, and not only because his ability to save his team a roster spot is probably worth some uncounted fraction of a win per year, too.
Back in the spring, Dan and I mused on the topic of Ohtani’s Hall of Fame case for FanGraphs Audio (start around 40:15). Dan, with projections in hand, suggested that Ohtani would look pretty good in that context, and while the math doesn’t work in the way that he suggested (we don’t add the JAWS of his hitting and pitching contributions but the WARs), it didn’t really take me long to come around to his thinking. Pondering the matter more deeply, the example I think of is that of John Montgomery “Monte” Ward, who as a pitcher, infielder, manager, pioneering labor leader, and executive left his stamp all over nineteenth-century baseball. It took until 1964, 39 years after his death, for him to get elected to the Hall of Fame because he ruffled so many feathers in his day, but even if we just consider his bifurcated playing career, his numbers are impressive.
Ward broke in as an 18-year-old rookie hurler for the Providence Grays in 1878, leading the NL with a 1.51 ERA (147 ERA+). He notched 47 wins and 239 strikeouts the next year, helping the team to a pennant. Even while piling up nearly 600 innings in 1879 and ’80 and pitching in 70 of his team’s 80-something games, he played third base, shortstop, or an outfield corner for nearly all of the ones he didn’t pitch. That’s a closer analogue to what Ohtani is doing than Ruth’s 1918–19 efforts, during which he often went weeks between starts because he was so important offensively.
For Ward, the pitching and fielding mix continued until he injured his right arm on a slide in 1884, ending his pitching career. After that, he became a regular shortstop and then second baseman and was an excellent defender if only an average-ish hitter. He earned a law degree from Columbia University in 1885 and that same year founded the Brotherhood of Professional Baseball Players, the sport’s first players’ union. In 1891, he led a revolt against NL owners that resulted in the founding of the one-year-only co-operative Players League. He played until age 35 (1894) before deciding to focus on his legal practice.
Ward is the only Hall of Famer with at least 2,000 hits and 100 wins. For JAWS purposes, he’s neither fish nor fowl; I don’t include him in the computation of the standards (I listed him at shortstop in The Cooperstown Casebook), though when I total up his pitching and hitting WAR into a single line, he looks pretty solid for a 19th-century player, with 62.5 career WAR, 40.7 peak WAR and 51.6 JAWS. Here’s the breakdown of his annual WARs:
| Year | Position Player WAR | Pitching WAR | Total WAR |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1878 | 0.1 | 4.6 | 4.7 |
| 1879 | 1.9 | 7.3 | 9.2 |
| 1880 | 1.0 | 6.7 | 7.7 |
| 1881 | 0.0 | 2.7 | 2.7 |
| 1882 | 0.0 | 3.3 | 3.3 |
| 1883 | 1.2 | 3.4 | 4.6 |
| 1884 | 1.4 | 0.1 | 1.5 |
| 1885 | 2.4 | — | 2.4 |
| 1886 | 2.6 | — | 2.6 |
| 1887 | 6.6 | — | 6.6 |
| 1888 | 2.1 | — | 2.1 |
| 1889 | 2.1 | — | 2.1 |
| 1890 | 2.9 | — | 2.9 |
| 1891 | 2.4 | — | 2.4 |
| 1892 | 4.2 | — | 4.2 |
| 1893 | 3.7 | — | 3.7 |
| 1894 | -0.2 | — | -0.2 |
| Total | 34.4 | 28.1 | 62.5 |
| Peak | 40.7 |
I didn’t count Ward in the tally of 40.0-WAR peak position players in the Hall that I highlighted in the first two installments of this series — noting that just shy of 75% of the eligible ones are enshrined, making it a good mid-career measure to reference — but in retrospect I should have.
Here’s Ohtani’s table:
| Year | Position Player WAR | Pitching WAR | Total WAR |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 2.7 | 1.3 | 4.0 |
| 2019 | 2.5 | — | 2.5 |
| 2020 | 0.0 | -0.4 | -0.4 |
| 2021 | 4.9 | 4.1 | 9.0 |
| 2022 | 3.4 | 6.2 | 9.6 |
| 2023 | 4.0 | 2.5 | 6.5 |
| Total | 17.5 | 13.7 | 31.2 |
Ohtani obviously doesn’t have a 17-year career to draw from, but even midway through his sixth season — one of which was solely as a DH and one of which was an injury-shortened disaster — he’s already got a 31.2-WAR peak score and 31.2 JAWS. That’s higher than two highly regarded 30-year-old Phillies, shortstop Trea Turner (30.6/29.3/30.0) and starting pitcher Aaron Nola (31.0/29.8/30.4), though admittedly neither is having a season that will do much to advance his cause.
Since the purpose of this is to fit Ohtani into my ever-expanding midseason JAWS update series, here’s his table:
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 31.1 | 31.1 | 31.1 |
| 2023: 6.4 | ROS: 3.4 | Career WAR | Peak WAR | JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 34.5 | 34.5 | 34.5 |
| HOF Standard Unicorn | How do you | measure | unicorns? |
All other figures use Baseball Reference WAR.
All told, I like Ohtani’s chances of making it to the Hall of Fame, not because the numbers are guaranteed to make him an obvious selection, but because even if they don’t, his career has already been unique and so special that quite frankly, we have to find room to honor him. What kind of idiot wouldn’t put Ohtani in the Hall? (Don’t answer that, we’re trying to keep this clean enough for the kids.)
If Ohtani is a unicorn, then the starters and relievers progressing toward Cooperstown are more like blue whales or great white sharks, fit for the list of endangered species. Beyond the four late-career starters who could start writing their speeches today, nobody is obviously on a Hall track due to injuries and declining performances.
Starting Pitchers
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 79.4 | 49.7 | 64.5 |
| 2023: 3.2 | ROS: 1.3 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 80.7 | 49.7 | 65.2 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 78.7 | 50.2 | 64.4 |
| 2023: 1.2 | ROS: 1.5 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 80.2 | 50.2 | 65.2 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 73.4 | 47.5 | 60.5 |
| 2023: 1.7 | ROS: 1.3 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 74.7 | 47.5 | 61.1 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 72.9 | 47.5 | 60.2 |
| 2023: 0.4 | ROS: 0.5 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 73.4 | 47.5 | 60.6 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
In late 2021, I introduced S-JAWS (Starter JAWS), which I designed in an attempt to set more attainable standards for Hall-aspiring pitchers by reducing the skewing caused by the impact of 19th-century and Deadball-era pitchers, some of whom topped 400, 500, or even 600 innings in a season on multiple occasions. I’ve done this by prorating the peak-component credit for any heavy-workload season to a maximum of 250 innings, which gives a boost to more recent pitchers by suppressing the peak-score impact of the massive seasons by those ancient hurlers.
I chose 250 innings because it’s a level that the current and recent BBWAA candidates rarely reached; among active pitchers, only Verlander has, albeit by a single inning over a decade ago. The various emphases on pitch counts, innings limits, and times through the order make it unlikely we’ll see such workloads again; if you want a contemporary cautionary tale, note that last year’s much-lauded workhorse, NL Cy Young winner Sandy Alcantara, has doubled his ERA after throwing an MLB-high 228.2 innings. Given the current trends in the game regarding starting pitcher usage, five or 10 years from now, looking at candidates on a 200- or 225-inning basis might make more sense.
The quartet above doesn’t really need JAWS, let alone S-JAWS, to make their cases to the average fan, particularly with three of them owning three Cy Young Awards apiece (all but Greinke, who has one and should probably have won a second). None of them will win 300 games, but they all have well over 200 wins; even Kershaw, who reached the milestone earlier this year, is at 207. Three of the four (all but Scherzer) are above the original JAWS standard of 61.4, with Kershaw currently 27th, Verlander 28th, and Greinke 32nd. Scherzer is 38th, just below the standard but surrounded by Hall of Famers, and he might yet cross the plane this year. By S-JAWS, they range from 20th to 28th.
The 35-year-old Kershaw is the only one of the four having a very good season; he leads the NL in ERA (2.55) but will soon shed that title, as his stint on the injured list with a vague shoulder issue will apparently keep him out until August. It will likely also prevent him from getting the 88 strikeouts he needs to reach 3,000 this year. That at least gives him a good reason to return next year, whether to the Dodgers, the only team he’s ever known, or to embark on a new and likely final chapter closer to home with the Rangers, with whom he’s played a public game of footsie.
It’s tougher to justify a return for Greinke, who in this dumpster fire of a season for the Royals is currently 1–9 with a 5.44 ERA. He just landed on the injured list with a bout of shoulder tendinitis, which may explain why he’s been pasted for an 8.01 ERA and 6.18 FIP in 30.1 innings since the start of June. While he needs 54 Ks to reach 3,000, that’s a tall order for this year given his current 16.4% strikeout rate.
Scherzer and Verlander, both already in the 3,000-strikeout club, were supposed to anchor the rotation of the $363-million Mets, but both have missed time with injuries and have hardly been at their best; the former has a 3.99 ERA and 4.41 FIP in 94.2 innings, the latter a 3.72 ERA and 4.03 FIP in 75 innings. Verlander’s ERA is more than double last year’s 1.75 mark, and where he had 185 strikeouts in 28 starts, he’s at 63 in 13 starts thus far. With $43.3 million to play for next year, neither of these two is hanging up his spikes this winter, but whether they’ll be Mets on August 2 may be another story.
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 46.4 | 38.9 | 42.7 |
| 2023: 0.9 | ROS: 0.7 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 47.1 | 38.9 | 43.0 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 44.6 | 39.8 | 42.2 |
| 2023: 0.7 | ROS: 0.0 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 44.6 | 39.8 | 42.2 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 45.5 | 36.2 | 40.9 |
| 2023: -1.5 | ROS: 0.4 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 45.9 | 36.2 | 41.1 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
Welcome to the weeds, where this trio of pitchers’ Hall of Fame cases reside. Sale was once a perennial Cy Young candidate; he finished in the top six in seven straight seasons (2012–18) during which he averaged 198.1 innings a year, placing as high as second in the voting but never winning. Those seasons account for all seven of his All-Star appearances and the entirety of his peak score. He had decent campaigns on either side of that stretch, but since missing all of 2020 due to Tommy John surgery, he’s managed just 22 starts and 1.9 WAR. This year, he has a 4.58 ERA and 3.71 FIP in 58 innings, but he hasn’t pitched since June 1 due to a stress reaction in his scapula and only resumed throwing bullpen sessions this past Friday, so he won’t be back until sometime in August. He’s only 34 years old, but unless he can at least take on a Kershaw-sized workload, he’s got little chance of advancing his Hall of Fame case.
As I noted last year in connection to Verlander, recoveries from Tommy John surgery don’t generally go so well for pitchers in the second half of their 30s, and that’s for pitchers who have undergone just one. DeGrom, who just turned 35, underwent his second TJ about a month ago (his first was in 2010) and is now on the shelf until sometime in the middle of next season. Three years ago, I wrote about the potential for deGrom to build a Koufax-like case for Cooperstown, where a third Cy Young might offset low counting stats in such a way that he would be obvious exception for voters to accommodate. Since then, over parts of four seasons, he’s dominated via a 2.12 ERA and 1.78 FIP, albeit over just 44 starts totaling 254 innings. He has 84 wins and 1,356.1 innings to his name, and even if he doubles those numbers, his counting stats will look light relative to the Hall of Fame hurlers.
Unlike Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina, the 41-year-old Wainwright chose to return for one more season with the Cardinals, but it’s been an absolute slog. He strained his groin during spring training, didn’t return until May 6, and in 11 starts totaling 51.2 innings has been pasted for a 7.66 ERA and 5.88 FIP. He went 0-for-3 in pursuit of his 199th career win before landing on the IL again with a right shoulder strain on July 5. He has vowed to return and will soon resume throwing off a mound, so a mid-to-late August return is probably a best-case scenario.
Given Wainwright’s four top-three finishes in the Cy Young voting and his role in helping the Cardinals to eight NL Central titles and two World Series, it might be a surprise that he doesn’t look stronger in light of JAWS. He’s pitched just 2,619 innings, however, missing all of 2011 due to Tommy John surgery, all but seven appearances in ’15 due to surgery to repair a torn Achilles tendon, and all but eight appearances in ’18 due to elbow inflammation. He’s banked four seasons of at least 6.0 WAR, but the other three seasons rounding out his peak score feature WARs of 4.0, 3.5, and 3.0 (including offense); barring medical miracles, he’s simply out of time to put up better seasons.
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 37.8 | 31.0 | 34.4 |
| 2023: 4.0 | ROS: 2.0 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 39.8 | 33.0 | 36.4 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
Of the active pitchers below the tier of those who have more or less clinched berths in Cooperstown, the 32-year-old Cole probably has the best shot of any of them given that he’s still healthy and dominant. He leads the AL in WAR and started the All-Star Game this year, just his second time actually pitching in the contest, though he’s been selected six times. Though he has yet to win a Cy Young award, he has five top-five finishes, including seconds in 2019 and ’21; his 1.90 Award Shares — a career tally of the fractional support a player receives in the annual MVP or Cy Young voting — ranks second among pitchers who have never won, behind Wainwright (1.98) and ahead of Sale (1.80).
Cole is in his sixth year of ranking among the league’s top 10 in WAR, with four top-five finishes in the past five seasons (last year was the exception). He’s on track to top not only 5.0 WAR for the fourth time, but also 6.0 WAR for the second time, and within his peak score, he’s got seasons of 2.5 and 2.7 WAR that should easily be improved upon. What could very well punch his ticket would be the combination of 200 wins and 3,000 strikeouts; he has 139 of the former and 2,064 of the latter, and he’s on track to best 200 strikeouts for the sixth time.
| Category | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
|---|---|---|---|
| Current | 31.1 | 29.8 | 30.4 |
| 2023: 1.5 | ROS: 2.0 | Career WAR | Peak WAR Adj. | S-JAWS |
| Projected End 2023 | 32.6 | 31.6 | 32.1 |
| HOF Standard SP | 73.0 | 40.7 | 56.8 |
If you’re looking past Cole for a starter who might have a chance, the 30-year-old Nola stands out in large part thanks to his 9.2-WAR 2018 season and his 1,500 strikeouts. That said, he’s made just one All-Star team, hasn’t finished higher than third in the Cy Young voting, and has been pretty ordinary in two of the past three seasons, with ERAs in the mid-4.00s. He’s totaled 10.1 WAR in that span, 5.9 of it from last year, his only other time above 4.4 WAR. We’ll see what his 30s are like.
Beyond that, I wouldn’t expect the out-of-work Madison Bumgarner (37.3/30.2/33.8) or the bullpen-bound Corey Kluber (34.0/34.9/34.4) and Johnny Cueto (36.3/29.5/32.9) to make much (if any) more progress. And it seems clear that Stephen Strasburg (32.3/28.6/30.4) is done due to severe nerve damage. Nobody else active is even at 30.0 JAWS. We’ll have to cross our fingers and hope that somebody else emerges that we can pin our hopes upon. In the final installment of the series, we’ll at least review a couple of relievers who might fit that bill.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
The dominant workhorse starter is going extinct. I like a lot of directions that modern baseball is going, but this is such a bummer to me.
The human body is only capable of so much.
Pitchers didn’t used to break so easily, but they probably weren’t trying for optimal velocity on every single pitch. For most pitchers today, it’s sink or swim because everyone throws hard – the vast majority of guys can’t afford to dial it back. I understand this, but at the same time I still think it stinks! I don’t really have a solution for it either.
“The spirit is willing but the flesh is spongy and bruised”
~Zapp Brannigan
In the 1970s, starting pitchers, running backs, and centers in basketball were the top dogs. Nowadays, they are more like afterthoughts.
The first two yes, but Centers have won the last three MVP awards in the NBA. And the playoffs last year proved you’ll only go as far as your interior defense can take you. The only exception was the Cavs, who lost in the first round.
Though before that, centers went 20 years in a row without an MVP.
Sadly, there are going to need to be some pretty serious rule changes about starters and relievers before we can bring back the Mark Buehrles and Brad Radkes of the world (let alone the Wilbur Woods).
My two changes are a 12 man pitching staff limit and kill the bonus runner in extras. Create a situation that forces teams to value pitcher endurance punishes them for not having the capacity on their limited staff.
It probably doesn’t do all of it but it’s a big start. It’s got to be a team construction incentive and not something that affects all players equally like field dimensions
Perhaps that will lead to more injuries and service time manipulation no?
That’s already happening, just with even more slots to do it with, but since the IL is 15 days for pitchers and without one you have to leave a guy down for that long after demotion, it will get increasingly hard to manipulate the slots with the same level of flexibility.
And even harder again if you push it down to 11. You just keep shrinking it until the teams have no choice but to value getting 6-7 innings from a starter and having a reliever who can definitely go 2 or 3 innings if needed available, and you’ll get different valuations from them
They do the max effort thing because it works better and because *they can* make it work. You just have to make it logistically impossible to do it that way, and they’ll do something else.
“Works better” is now defined to exclude increased odds of TJS.
Part of it is that managers are treating the 100 pitch mark too much like a hard cap instead of just the estimated suggestion that it used to be. Even just 15-20 years ago, managers didn’t take a guy out just because he reached 92 pitches at the end of an inning. You let that guy start another inning and take him out if and only if he starts getting into too much trouble. If he winds up with 105 pitches, so what? Unless he’s on an innings limit, you should also let a starter who is really dealing continue to pitch as many as 120-130 pitches before you absolutely need to take him out.
Starting pitchers should actually be pitching an average of more innings these days now that half the teams no longer have to potentially remove them earlier than desired for a pinch-hitting opportunity, but the managers are becoming too cowardly.
One thing to consider re: Ohtani’s HOF chances is how he’s going to be viewed after he signs a record contract with the Mets and then spends the rest of his career with the Mets curse saddled upon him. I mean, we all know that if he goes to the Dodgers or Mariners or Padres or stays with the Angels he’ll keep being Tungsten O’Doyle, but he’ll sign with the Mets and need career-ending TOS surgery within four months.
This is funny, but also, he’s not going to the Mets.
Given everything Ive seen about how happy he seems in LA in every way but on the field it really does feel like the Dodgers are a substantial favorite, given they have clearly been preparing the payroll for it.
There are rumors that the Dodgers are his first choice. The rumors also say the Dodgers are not prepared to pay him at the same level as other teams. Whether he would play for the Dodgers at $475M instead of the Giants or Padres at $575M is unknown but I think it is quite possible that he would.
They also can surprise you sometimes and cleared out a looot of payroll space this offseason. I would not be shocked if they offer something a lot closer to the top offer, even if it’s not literally the max (eg within 15-25m, or the same per annum with one less year or whatever)
They really wanted him in 17 and could not get past the Billy Eppler connection (and its worth keeping in mind Ohtani picked the Angels because of that and not necessarily because of the money, too, so .. )
He said he wants to win titles, and that’s a vibe check. Have the Mets passed a vibe check in their entire existence?
Dodgers pass the vibe check with flying colors. It just feels like they’re going to win a lot, even when they’re doing things like counting on a guy named James Outman to be their primary center fielder and the ghost of Jason Heyward to handle semi-regular outfield duty.
Pretty much everyone thinks he wants to stay on the west coast too, although I suppose it is possible that he just wants to do Spring Training in Arizona for some reason. Either way, I’m pretty sure anyone on east coast time has no chance.
Spring Training in Arizona matters to a surprisingly large number of players, but I totally get it, given that the Cactus League is such a miles better experience than the Grapefruit league
I have a hard time imagining anyone would be voting against Ohtani if he stays healthy, who has been putting up 8-10 win seasons for 2.5 years now. At this rate, he’ll reach 60 WAR before his age-34 season, and have 3 or 4 MVPs and a peak that compares nicely to guys like Mike Schmidt and Albert Pujols.
The biggest risk to his candidacy is if he blows out his arm and has to convert to being a position player full time but even then he’s still going to keep putting up 4+ win seasons, perhaps a lot more if we discover he has a lot of range in center field or something fun like that.
I think he’s going to be a Hall of Famer.
I’d think it’s very very likely; either he does the full Ohtani thing for like 2-3 more seasons (at which point he’d just be waiting til he hits 10 years) or he starts losing pitching value (by getting less effective or hurt), but continues to rake like a Top 5 bat for 4-5 years.
I think on narrative alone, he’d have a shot even if he just played one game a season to get to 10 seasons with his current accomplishments.
I think people here underweight how much consideration voters give to guys who spend a lot of time in Japan before coming here. The discount rate for being a star in Japan doesn’t appear to me to be that high, and it does seem to contribute to a hall case. That should help Ohtani. If he blew out tomorrow, I wouldn’t expect him to make the hall but I wouldn’t expect him to fall off the ballot either
He didn’t play that long in Japan so I think people don’t really think of him as being in the same category as Ichiro, or even someone like Yu Darvish who came over at 25. But I do think that adds up, even if it was just a few seasons; Japan is a good league even if it’s not MLB quality.
Where are you getting this idea of how voters consider time in the NPB? There are only two Japanese players to ever make a HOF ballot, Nomo and Matsui and neither of them topped 1.1% of the vote. Matsui’s time as a superstar in Japan led to 4 more votes than Aubrey Huff, but that could have also been his WS MVP.
Ichiro is expected to coast into the Hall, but he has a HOF resume just based on his MLB play. Darvish probably won’t make a second ballot.
Even if he has a career-ending injury after just 10 years in the Majors, he’ll probably still compare nicely to guys like Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean, especially since he also played in Japan.
I wonder if there will be just a long gap in SP inductions after the big 4. The sudden drop in innings volume will be hard to adjust to. We may not have another pitcher reach 2,500 innings (Gerrit Cole is kind of the only one with a chance). The only 20th century pitchers in the Hall with under 2,500 innings are Koufax, Addie Joss, and Dizzy Dean and those were all special circumstances that cut their careers short.
How will voters handle that deGrom will likely have pitched less than half the innings of a typical hall of famer (probably closer to a third)? A lot of the best pitchers of this era might not have half the innings of Mark Buehrle.
We need to start having some conversations about what sorts of career WAR we’re willing to consider in light of the fact that nobody is throwing 250 innings a year anymore, and even topping 200 innings is remarkable. And, also that everyone seems to keep blowing out their arms.
Right now, guys like Felix Hernandez are considered borderline because they only have 50-something WAR. Chris Sale and Gerrit Cole will probably get to 55 WAR or whatever the invisible cutoff line is, but after that there’s not a single active pitcher I would feel confident about making it. Aaron Nola is at about 30, so if he gets to 45 is that enough? It’s probably too soon, since we will still remember Verlander and Scherzer. Zac Gallen has 12.4 career fWAR; if he puts up another 2.5 wins this year, he would still need to average 6 wins a year over the next 5 years to get to 45. What are the chances of that? How many years without any starting pitching inductions are we willing to deal with before we just lower the standards? Do we think anyone will ever put up 55 WAR again?
Well, unless I am missing someone, the writers didn’t vote a single true SP into the Hall between Nolan Ryan in 1999 and Blyleven in 2011 and that took a huge campaign to rally support that Blyleven was deserving despite having only 287 wins. So it can take a while for the recalibration to take place.
Admittedly there weren’t any obvious SP candidates in that stretch. Tommy John and Jack Morris were other ones garnering support on those ballots, but Saberhagen and Brown departed without a whimper. The impending candidacies of 300 game winners Maddux, Glavine, and Randy Johnson probably likely made it tougher too since it was obscuring the death of the 300 game winner.
I suspect that something similar with happen with Felix where his reaching the ballot with Sabathia and ahead of the big 4 will bury him. If he arrived after them, then he might look like the top or close to it of the Sale, deGrom, Cole, etc era (he’s actually closer in age to Sale and deGrom than he is to Verlander), instead of the 6th best of the previous group.
Felix Hernandez has less than 50 career bWAR and was pretty much done by the time he was 30. I don’t see him as a viable candidate in the first place.
It’s not hard to see a future where Gerrit Cole is the only pitcher to debut after Kershaw in 08 who crosses that 50 bWAR threshold for a long time. Sale and deGrom are close, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t get their either given their age and injury history. It wouldn’t be shocking if Cole doesn’t make it either, but I think he’s got a pretty good shot.
Nola putting up 20 bWAR in his 30s seems unlikely, after that I can’t even come up with a guy who would even qualify as a longshot. Eury Perez honestly might have the best chance and that sounds absolutely absurd.
If people are willing to vote in relievers who pitched a third or so of the innings of a typical hall of famer, then why not deGrom? Whose career would you rather have: Trevor Hoffman’s or Jacob deGrom’s? Lee Smith? Bruce Sutter? Easy calls for me. It gets a little harder when you get to Hoyt Wilhelm, Rich Gossage, or Mariano Rivera, but it’s still arguably deGrom.
deGrom didn’t get saves, that will likely be the distinction. To be clear, I’m not saying it’s right, but those guys were considered some of the best closers when closers were really being valued and there wasn’t (and isn’t) a clear HOF precedence for what a HOF closer looked like.
deGrom is a starter and is going to be compared to starters from the last 100 years even if his usage might have actually looked more like Lee Smith’s than Bob Gibson’s.
I am not really a fan of most of the relievers entering the hall these days but if we are going to induct Craig Kimbrel then it seems also fair to induct DeGrom.
See my comment above. Longevity matters. Or, rather, has historically mattered in Hall voting.
Kimbrel/Jansen still need a few good years to get out of the Pap/K-Rod range, much less catch Joe Nathan.
(RA9-WAR is the best option once the BIP sample size gets large enough to be indicative).
Not sure anything from the last few years indicates they’ll do so.
This has been one of my hobbyhorses for a while. If the Hall starts enshrining a fairly high percentage of relief pitchers compared to starting pitchers, that will be stupid. Luckily, I guess, it seems as though Chapman’s case is dwindling fast (and his DV won’t help) so we are looking at two possible relievers between the Rivera/Hoffman/Wagner? Cohort of the steroid era and whoever might pop up next. And it’s not as if Kimbrel or Jansen are close to locks yet. I think either is fairly locked in if they reach 500 saves and surpass Wagner’s innings total.
I also have some hope for starting pitchers and find the suggestion that 300 winners are a complete thing of the past (honestly, this was said when Glavine and Johnson reached 300, will we so glibly say it for a third time with Verlander?) to be premature and the idea that there won’t be 200 game winners to be unserious. As has been said, pitchers don’t decline, they break. And some have a way of not. I could see Cole reaching 250 wins without performing any miracles and while I don’t know that I’d bet on any particular under-30 pitcher to pass 200 wins, I’d lay heavy odds that someone currently in their 20s ends up with well over 200 wins.
By the time they reach 500 saves or pass Wagner’s innings total (far from a given), their rate stats are going to look a lot more like Lee Smith’s than Wagner’s, haha.
They’re already about to fall behind Nathan’s rate numbers from the bullpen.
I assume you’re being hyperbolic, as barring Kimbrel somehow sticking around for 3-4 years while pitching like a replacement player, he’s not going to end up with rate stats closer to Lee Smith (who, by the way, whether you like it or not, is in the hall of fame). Kimbrel has about the same ERA, but lower FIP, average against, and high K% than Wagner, and is close to passing him in saves. He’s obviously pitching pretty well now and three more seasons as an effective closer is not a ridiculous proposition. Kimbrel is lucky in that he was so good for his first nine years that his time in the wilderness for whatever reason still leaves him with gaudy rate numbers.
I would be very surprised if hall voters don’t rally around at least one closer from this era. With Chapman basically out of the running, it would be a bigger surprise for Kimbrel/Jansen to go 0/2 than 2/2.
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…dear God.
Given that this conversation was taking place on FanGraphs, I assumed you would be familiar with the concept of a “Run Environment.”
Since nothing in your reply demonstrates any understanding of such, no value will be gained by a continued interaction.
If only you had the slightest power of deduction. As I said already that Kimbrel and Jansen are “far from locks,” you might deduce that an understanding of eras is baked into that statement next to one stating that Kimbrel was better in all of those things than Wagner. If eras didn’t matter, or if I didn’t understand that, I would be calling Kimbrel (and Jansen) locks for the Hall. You’ve once again shown how stupid you can look when you erroneously think you’re the smartest person in the room.
Not your fault, mate – I’m a barker, but this entire post screams “OTP chopper.”
Just different vibes.
I don’t know or care what that means. Go back to TikTok.
It’s extremely unlikely that Verlander makes it to 300 wins, he is still 53 wins away and is in his 40s. Even if we completely disregard this year’s appearance of decline and think he is going to snap back to last year’s Cy winning form, it would still take 3 seasons to get there. If he stays at about this level of performance and health then he just has to go until he’s 45. It’s possible, but it is an incredible longshot.
Since the start of 2019 (roughly 4 full seasons) there have been all of 3 pitchers in all of baseball who have accumulated 53 wins. Verlander matching that in his 40s would be an incredible accomplishment that is exceedingly unlikely.
I wouldn’t call it exceedingly unlikely. I doubt Verlander will decline enough by then given his high current baseline, so it’s more of a matter of him breaking (which yes, is pretty likely) or just not wanting to hang on (also very possible).
Probably more unlikely than I thought as I had in my head that he was closer, but I wouldn’t be “shocked,” and I also wouldn’t be shocked if Kershaw maintained his health and somehow got there. He’s 35 and at 207. I mean, even in the old days most pitchers were more barely hanging on when they reached 300. Randy Johnson was practically a finesse pitcher by the time he did it!
Would you rather have a guy who performed his job for 5 full years or 17? See, it’s apples and oranges, but not because it’s starter vs. reliever. Longevity is built into the HoF formula. There are lots of guys with long A- careers in the Hall, very few with short A+ careers.
Saberhagen, Santana, and Stieb should all be in over Lee Smith Trevor Hoffman
…and Cone and Tiant should be in over those three, haha.
Relief pitchers gain extra value by generally pitching in higher leverage situations. That’s why we have different metrics and a much lower career WAR standard for them.
If deGrom doesn’t have better health from this point, he would be more comparable to guys like Koufax and Dizzy Dean, pitchers with relatively short careers but so incredibly dominant during their peaks that it didn’t matter. The question is was deGrom dominant to *that* degree.
Voters are going to need to recalibrate their thoughts on pitchers entirely. It will still be hard to include a lot of relievers since so few of them are great for more than two or three years and starting pitchers aren’t going to have the innings and career length, much less wins, to qualify under old thinking. Nobody is getting 300 wins again. Verlander is the only guy with any kind of shot and he probably needs 100 more starts which is pretty unlikely. When you look at active WAR leaders, it’s guys like Darvish, Cueto, Quintana, Lance Lynn, Nola…lots of “very good” pitchers in their early 30’s with 30 – 35 career WAR.
Forget 300 wins, outside of possibly Wainwright and Cole as a longshot, we might not ever see 200 wins again.
While under current circumstances, it will be well neigh impossible for someone to win 300 games.
But baseball has a funny way of turning and changing and in a generation, who knows, they may deaden the ball so much that pitchers are not afraid to itch to contact because it would be hard to hit a HR, and then they might last longer and throw more innings. Not projecting anything, just saying there are a lot of unpredictable things going on.
I suspect this is something a committee will have to sort out in 20 years. Maybe a guy like Wainwright or Nola becomes someone that goes from “borderline versus their peer group” to “wow these guys blow away the current crop”
The starting pitcher list is grim, seeing how voters adjust is going to be, uh, interesting.
With rapidly changing workloads, the simplest solution is to just compare pitchers against their more recent contemporaries instead of some now physiologically impossible standards established half a century ago.
For the 15 years he was a SP, Mark Buehrle is second to only Halladay by rWAR.
How many SP with the 2nd highest rWAR over any 15 year stretch aren’t in the HOF?
I agree, but I think that will be weird when in our collective memory, those guys just won’t have the same presence that verlander, max, kersh all have. Like imagine if Blake snell goes on to have 5 more seasons like the one he is having. And he’s a guy who just always goes 5 / 6 innings. He’s totally in line with the way all pitchers are treated these days, but he’ll just ultimately be a less important player cause he plays less. If he ends up in the top 5 of pitcher war of the era, it’d be right to elect him to the hall. But it just won’t be the same. That’s why I’m happy as a nats fan to have drafted crews rather than skenes, cause I think individual hitters are growing in importance relative to individual pitchers. And that’s also why I’ll take innings pitched as a huge factor in cy young consideration #wheeleroverburnes21
But yeah that’s the right way to do the hall but a lamentable status for the guys that were previously in total control of the diamond for 7 innings a game
Probably a lot. From 1979-1994 Dave Stieb is second only to Clemens in rWAR at 61.2. Not in the Hall.
He should be.
It’d be simpler to just compute IP standards by comparing them to the average IP of each start and the average number of games started in each year (while separating by league in years that only the AL used the DH), something like IP+.
The only issue there is how to deal with openers and other bullpen games. You’d either have to accept that those will skew the data somewhat, especially in more recent years, or you’d have to go through the data and remove them on a case by case basis while making some judgement calls on whether or not teams in certain games legitimately intended to use the starter as a starting pitcher.
Man, it really feels like SP is so much harsher on borderline candidates than for position players. There are only five active likely future HoF SPs, out of approx. 150 SPs (ignoring 6th/7th starters) in the league… with 4 of them very close to retirement?
Adjustment badly needs to happen at this position. Buehrle and Pettite for example aren’t being taken seriously at about 60 career WAR by voters. Mayyyyybe Cole and Nola reach that if they age really well, but… who the hell else? The physical strain of pitching dominantly in today’s game makes the usual HoF accumulation career trends— early debut and breakout, pretty consistently good health through peak years, long careers— way, way harder than for hitters or arguably even relievers. Development for pitchers is essentially always delayed like a year and a half relative to hitters bc just about every single power pitcher prospect has TJS and other health issues these days.
There’s so many fewer young studs at their position at SP. There is just ONE SP right now who is 25 or younger with at least 6.0 (!) career fWAR: Spencer Strider. Kirby and Manoah could maybe join him by the end of the season… if Manoah fixes himself anyways.
Hitters who satisfy that include Soto, Franco, Acuña, Robert, Bichette, Tatis, Julio, Rutschman, W. Contreras the younger… and about a dozen more.
Seeing perfectly reasoned arguments exactly like this one are why I find myself taking the hall less and less seriously as an institution. It’s pageantry and nothing else, no one should feel bad for being borderline and not getting in
Pitchers are way underrepresented in the hall relative to their volume in the game today. Just per the individuals included in JAWS totals (so excluding negro leagues players and individuals inducted not for their playing careers), there are about 20 per position for the 8 position player positions (167 total to be exact). There are 66 SP and 8 RP in the JAWS totals. Pitchers are about half of all players (probably a little more) today, but they are outnumbered by more than 2:1 in the hall.
Of course there were many fewer pitchers in the eras most of these players came from, but still the overall ratio feels like it is still more representative of 3 man rotations than 5 (thinking of it as 13 starting players per team and disregarding benches (5 SP and 8 position players)).
A reasonable argument can be made that HoF criteria is too focused on career longevity in the first place. If Ohtani fell victim to a physical injury tomorrow, preventing him from playing again, he’d merit consideration for a bust in Cooperstown solely for being the mold-breaker that he has been. (Why not break another mold?)
The real issue is that Ohtani doesn’t yet have the 10 years of service time necessary to be eligible for the Hall of Fame in the first place. Assuming he does get there but doesn’t last much longer than that, I’d then support Ohtani as a rare exception to longevity like Koufax, Dean, and arguably Posey.
However, longevity does matter for very good reasons.
I reject the notion that pitchers can no longer throw 250+ innings. Nutrition, training, etc., all are better and should assist pitchers throwing more innings. It’s totally the management notion that a pitcher shouldn’t face a batter three times in a game. That may be true for average pitchers but not for elite pitchers. I believe that if teams were limited to 11-12 pitchers we would see a return to 200+ innings for many starters and to 250+ innings for the elite starters. The pitch clock has worked to make the game faster and more interesting along with requiring relievers to face at least three batters. A limit on pitchers would also improve the game. They could phase it in over 2-3 years if they want but I’m certain that pitchers could adapt to it as well as they have to a pitch clock.
It’s not that they “can’t”. It’s that they’d rather expend more effort on each pitch and train to maximise the nastiness of each pitch.
What you are proposing would lead to an unprecedented explosion in offense. The workhorse starters aren’t around because if pitchers don’t train for peak velo, nastiness, etc., then today’s hitters will make them pay for it.
Let’s do a little calculation. If teams today had a choice between a guy throwing 160 innings of 3.50 ERA/estimator ball vs. a guy throwing 250 innings of 4.30 ERA, they are taking the first guy pretty much every time, even though the WAR is about the same. You can find a group of 4.30 (or better) middle relievers to cover that 90IP gap with relative ease. The 4.30 workhorse gives up 119 runs over that 250 IP; the modern, 5IP/game starter & 4.30 collective ERA bullpen combo gives up 105.2 runs.
There is an argument for having one workhorse 250IP starter on your staff: he decreases the bullpen workload, thereby making them more effective otherwise. Given that there are limited numbers of these modern #2 starters, that probably helps the team overall. But the math simply does not work for an entire rotation like that.
Is it the hall of fame or hall of endurance. If he wins another MVP I’d out him in at the end of this year.
All this talk of longevity an no one has mentioned Bartolo Colon. Or Jamie Moyer.
It’s the hall of fame, not the “hall of what the fuck did I just watch” though I’d pay money to visit that one too (and patronize the blackjack table and ladies of negotiable affection)
I love Fangraphs and Jay and this series, but I wish writers would stop calling people unicorns. Shohei Ohtani is not a mythical creature; he is real. What you mean to say is that he is unique. The “uni” part of unicorn refers to its one horn, not that it’s one of a kind.