Exit Ned Yost. Enter… Mike Matheny?

Yesterday, Ned Yost announced that he would retire at the end of the season. While the news came as a surprise, the man himself has always kept a healthy perspective on the game. Based on Alec Lewis’s profile, he’ll leave the game feeling fulfilled and ready for the next chapter of his life. His departure, along with a juicy rumor that Royals special advisor and former Cardinals manager Mike Matheny will replace him, made for an eventful Monday morning in Kansas City.

As a skipper, Yost was never a visionary strategist. He’s not analytically inclined by nature, and he struggled in game states that require managers to play the percentages. Too often, his choices looked reflexive and dated: He liked having his fast shortstop lead off, OBP be damned. His good players bunted far too often. He didn’t always know when to deploy his closer. Managing the bullpen proved particularly challenging.

In one 2014 game, Yost summoned young Danny Duffy into a tied, extra-inning contest on the road, and then turned to Louis Coleman after the lefty loaded the bases. All that time, he had all-world closer Greg Holland ready to go, but he never got to pitch; Baltimore walked it off against Coleman. Later that year, Yost brought in a lefty specialist specifically to face (then) feeble-hitting Jackie Bradley Jr. with one on late in a one-run game; the Red Sox predictably inserted lefty-basher Jonny Gomes, who socked a two-run homer to give Boston a one-run win. After that episode, the manager memorably took responsibility, saying he’d “outsmarted himself.” Perhaps more than anyone over the last decade, Yost earned an almost anti-analytic reputation, becoming the face of what sabermetric seamheads spent so much time ranting about on Twitter.

But as Yost’s time in the dugout stretched on, the criticisms of his tactical acumen felt like an increasingly small slice of the story. For subscribers of the iceberg theory of managing, it’s clear that he compensated with other strengths. Yost always absorbed the blame whenever things went haywire, a point that both his bosses and charges acknowledged and appreciated. He also had a steady hand with young players. In Milwaukee and Kansas City, he helped turn perennially losing teams into playoff-caliber squads, happily shepherding young talents through the inevitable growing pains. Notably, a number of highly touted prospects who began their big league careers slowly — Eric Hosmer, Alex Gordon, Mike Moustakas, Jorge Soler, and Adalberto Mondesi among them — eventually blossomed. Might they have done so sooner under another manager? Perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, most of the best prospects under Yost’s watch figured things out eventually.

Throughout his time in charge, Yost was a player’s manager. He rarely brought in a pinch hitter for the feeble-hitting Alcides Escobar, hoping more at-bats would boost his shortstop’s confidence. He trusted young players in big situations, a tendency best exemplified by his choice to lean on Brandon Finnegan, a professional for only three months at the time, in extra innings in the 2014 Wild Card game. He preferred defined roles in the bullpen, and while that’s not necessarily the optimal way to use your relievers on paper, it’s something most players prefer. He also had a well-earned reputation for resolutely backing his players in the press.

Occasionally, his public championing took a turn for the weird. When then-Brewer CC Sabathia lost a no-hitter because of a controversial scorekeeping decision, Yost was understandably upset, blasting the ruling as “a joke.” His bark reflected the clubhouse’s mood, and he undoubtedly earned some goodwill for backing his player. But as the public sparring bled into a late-season losing streak, Yost was criticized for letting it become a distraction, and the incident fed the perception that he wasn’t sufficiently attuned to his team’s dwindling Wild Card lead. Milwaukee eventually replaced him as the manager with just 12 games to go, the latest that the manager of a playoff team has ever been dismissed in big league history.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed.
We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member.
1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other.
2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off.
3. Dark mode and Classic mode!
4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them.
5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects.
6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.)
7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only.
8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members.
10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features!
We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it.

Of course, Yost being who he is, everyone felt bad. Former Brewers General Manager Doug Melvin, the man who fired him, seemed miserable about it (“[Yost] didn’t have all the answers for what is going on the last two weeks and I’m not sure I have all the answers.”) and still speaks well of him. To his credit, Yost took the high road. In the wake of the most agonizing and embarrassing moment of his professional life, he gamely said “I really hope this works and they get the jump start they’re looking for.”

Less than two years later, he was back in the manager’s chair. How you evaluate Yost’s time in KC likely reflects how you consume baseball as a whole, as his tenure feeds several narratives. He accrued a losing record overall but retires as the Royals winningest manager. His questionable bullpen decisions birthed the infamous #Yosted hashtag, but he also expertly deployed Kelvin Herrera and Wade Davis down the stretch in 2015. His lineups always raised eyebrows, but his players loved playing for him. And of course, the flag will fly forever.

As the franchise bids farewell to one of the few remaining faces from that championship team, the sendoff will inevitably turn to talk of what comes next. Should the scuttlebutt prove true, Matheny will be the man of the hour.

If we’re evaluating skippers solely by how well they manage by The Book, the Royals are poised to hire the one man who may be less orthodox than Yost. Matheny’s questionable maneuvers in big moments were as constant as the clenched jaw he wore throughout his tenure in St. Louis. Perhaps his worst move was to give the ball to Michael Wacha — who hadn’t pitched in 20 days — in the ninth during a tied elimination game on the road; unsurprisingly, Wacha looked rusty and allowed a three-run homer to Travis Ishikawa. Matheny was roundly criticized for putting Wacha in a tough spot, and the decision was emblematic of his strategic deficiencies.

The new gig would also present a different challenge than Matheny faced in his previous job. In St. Louis, he piloted experienced teams who were annually strong postseason contenders. From Lance Berkman and Matt Holiday to Adam Wainwright and Yadier Molina, he always had a steady group of veterans whom he could count on, both on the field and in the clubhouse. The mission looks very different in Kansas City, where the Royals have lost 100 games in each of the last two years and have barely a 32-year-old in sight. With Soler, Mondesi, and Hunter Dozier, the club has an exciting core. But there will be plenty of growing pains in the years ahead as Dayton Moore builds around them. Mentorship is a big part of Matheny’s new assignment, and it’s unclear how his time with the Cardinals prepares him for it.

Questions about Matheny’s ability to settle young players into his lineup dogged him throughout his time in town. Promising players like Kolten Wong, Tommy Pham, and the late Oscar Taveras struggled for regular playing time, while Wacha and Shelby Miller bounced between roles.

Those concerns loom particularly large in the wake of a 2018 report from Mark Saxon at The Athletic, in which Matheny was quoted as saying “the game has gotten a little softer.” The full context of that quote offers little relief. He was defending Bud Norris, who had come under scrutiny for his treatment of young pitchers, Jordan Hicks in particular. “Bud’s going to continue to do what he thinks is right as a veteran,” Matheny said. “You have to respect that.”

From the outside, it’s difficult to comment decisively on whether Norris’ behavior qualified as bullying; only those in the clubhouse can fully speak to that. But based on Hicks’ response to questions about whether he found Norris’ influence helpful — a clipped “I have no idea. No comment.” — Matheny’s remarks looked almost derisive. He was fired less than a week after publication, and the incident provided fresh ammunition for observers who felt that the manager struggled to relate to the game’s youngest generation of players.

As has long been the case, it’s very difficult to assess the fit between a new manager and his club. There is no WAR for skippers, and nothing to prevent an old dog from learning new tricks in his time away from the helm. Perhaps Matheny has reflected on his previous shortcomings. Maybe he can help a young roster develop, instill a winning culture, and implement a more seasoned in-game decision-making process than what characterized his time on the other side of Missouri.

But this seems like a bad idea. The Royals, without going through any extended hiring or vetting process, seem close to giving the reins to a retread, a bad tactician with a history of underwhelming clubhouse leadership. Matheny may well be the right man for the job, and it’s possible that the Royals brass has given the matter an extended inquiry behind closed doors. Still, Yost’s impending departure was not common knowledge until this week. Under the new circumstances, a more probing look at the managerial talent pool appears prudent.





Brendan covers prospects and the minor leagues for FanGraphs. Previously he worked as a Pro Scout for the Pittsburgh Pirates.

64 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

Okay, so hiring Matheny would obviously be a huge mistake. But I think it’s also true that the Royals might have trouble hiring their top choice among the actual potentially good managerial candidates. How many openings are there going to be? We know the Angels, Padres, Giants, and Royals fit here. Maybe the Cubs. The Blue Jays? Mets? Phillies? Pirates? Of those teams, the Royals are only clearly a better opening than the Pirates. And this isn’t a team that’s likely to be paying for the best managerial candidates anyway (Girardi, Showalter, Maddon).

dl80Member since 2026
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think I’d also rather be the Royals manager than the Giants, at least going forward for the next 3-4 years.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

I would agree. It’s not clear the Giants understand how bad their team is going to be.

Sliver57Member since 2015
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

As someone whose favorite teams in beisbol are the Royals and Giants, I’m not sure that I’d agree with that. Farhan Zaidi ‘s going on last 11 months as the Giants GM gives me a lot more optimism in how he’s going to spend the upcoming winter than Dayton Moore’s last 13 years do. For a start, we’re not seeing speculation about how Zaidi’s about to hire Matheny. Sure, the young pitchers in the Royals pipeline are something to dream on that the Giants don’t have, but the cupboard isn’t bare, either, and I trust Zaidi’s process.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Sliver57

I think that in 2022, the Giants job is going to be very attractive. Ownership is willing to spend, the young talent will be almost ready, and while we don’t know a lot about Zaidi’s ability there’s not a lot of reason for worry either. But the expectations are very high in San Francisco, and they don’t have any real help coming except Joey Bart. Do you want to be the manager who takes over for Bruce Bochy and runs up a couple of 90-loss seasons, only to get fired when help is on the way?

anarchosnailMember since 2024
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The Giants have a better team than the Royals as it stands now and also have at least a slightly deeper system. Add to that the fact that Zaidi showed this season he can at least put together a respectable team with aging veterans and the right Quad-A guys and I don’t think the Giants are heading toward another 90-loss year. A few years without the playoffs, sure, but Bart is far from the only piece they have in the system.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  anarchosnail

How many players are under contract next year and are better than a league-average starter? Yazstremski is the only one, and that’s assuming what he’s doing isn’t a mirage (I’d expect some regression, but he’s been so good he’ll still be above average). The only other players this year were Bumgarner, Dyson, and Smith, who are all free agents.

How many league-average players do we think are going to be on the team in 2020? Posey, if he can be not awful at the plate to offset the inevitable regression of his insane defensive numbers. Longoria, if he can stay healthy. Belt, if he can stay at 1B and have better offensive luck. Pillar, if he can hold off the decline of age. Shaun Anderson, if he can improve. Donovan Solano, maybe. There is not a single player who you can comfortably project to be a league-average starter in 2020, unless you think Longoria is back.

That leaves the team looking for improvements with Dubon, Joe McCarthy, Mike Gerber, Chris Shaw, Sam Wolff, and Jaylin Davis. and maybe Joey Bart (who would displace Posey from his biggest source of value–his catcher defense). Their most likely contributor is Melvin Adon, who could be a good reliever.

There is only way this team is going to avoid being bad in 2020, and that’s if they spend a lot of money. I suppose you can’t rule that out but if they do that, then that raises the expectations further. It’s a no-win.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Without going through a rigorous process–in which an org would actually discuss the specific criteria it values, articulate them, then design a process to find someone who meets them–how would they even know what “good” is? They shouldn’t be trying to find some famous/big name, but rather, see who’s out there, under the radar, and can make an impact (you know, like rebuilding orgs should do everywhere).

The worst part of this is the feeling that the Royals view the last 3 years as a success to be continued rather than as a death spiral to be avoided.

(edit: great point about the Royals being cheap, though an unknown name could still be a sneaky good hire for less than, say, SD would have to pay Bochy)

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

I do think there are some managers who are just “better” than others. Mike Matheny is probably the worst option. Buck Showalter is probably the best (I acknowledge not everyone shares that position). I would maintain that’s true for almost any team.

Beyond that, I do think there are “fits”–the right manager at the right time. But it is a bit of a risk. Recently, everyone wanted to hire Callaway and Martinez and now everyone is wondering if they’re goners (well, Callaway, at least). It seems like the common play here is to look for a bench coach from a recent contending team (Joe Maddon, Alex Cora, and probably many others fit that definition).

Chili Davis Eyes
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Wait, did Brad Ausmus get fired without anyone reporting it? Typical East Coast media bias.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

Nope. I was just wrong.

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago

someone on the Jaffe chat thread was defending Matheny…. I came up with these numbers-
1st 4 years 375-273- .579 winning percentage-93.75 games won pace . But then as things got more analytical his last 2 1/2 years only 216-201- .518 winning percentage- 83.91 games won pace. He leaves- and his replacement has gone 131-95- a .580 winning percentage- 93.90 games won pace.

pretty incredible numbers….

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
6 years ago
Reply to  stever20

And here was my response:
In citing Shildt’s record as manager, you merely make the argument that Shildt has done an excellent job as manager. And I won’t disagree.

But you haven’t explained why or how a supposedly poor manager (Matheny) could have significantly outperformed the publicly available projection models and the Vegas line over a total of more than 1,000 games managed. It’s irrelevant how his success is parsed — whether he was at his most successful in only the even-numbered years, or great early and average later, is immaterial. His record on the whole was enviable.

Overall, it’s a track record of significantly exceeding reasonable expectations in both the regular season and October. Assuming we define reasonable expectations as Vegas + projection models.

How better to define reasonable expectations? I’m not being rhetorical. If not Vegas and the projection systems, how would YOU define reasonable expectations? I am open to suggestions, but have never seen one yet.

stever20Member since 2017
6 years ago

and baseball as the 7 years went along got more and more analytical. Matheny just didn’t keep up…

etcp
6 years ago

Ron Gardenhire is surely also a contender for least analytically-inclined manager. But he may also lose the title of “manager” soon.

Knoblaublah
6 years ago
Reply to  etcp

But if you want to compete for the first draft pick, he’s an excellent choice.

CC AFCMember since 2016
6 years ago

Umm, in fairness, Matheny does seem like the perfect guy to support the Royals’ growth plan:

Step 1: no porn. Step 2: ??? Step 3: profit

JimMember since 2016
6 years ago

Excellent analysis.

WARonEverything
6 years ago

Will Matheny inherit the guy in KC who call for challenges. Yost has been great at this over the years, but I wonder if it is Yost or someone else in KC.

Pokkit
6 years ago

I believe it is ultimately Yost’s decision, but he’s got a video booth reviewer feeding him info. I imagine that guy stays. Shauncore could correct me if I’m wrong.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  Pokkit

Yeah it’s Bill Duplissea

https://www.mlb.com/royals/team/front-office/bill-duplissea

I have mixed feelings on challenge success% (I mean…teams get to literally watch the replay before challenging, which seems unfair) but Dup has a good reputation at least.

WARonEverything
6 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Yost has been #1 or #2 in success % each of the past 4 seasons. The Yankees appear to know what they are doing also.

Tooele Dave
6 years ago

Off topic, but after the Pirates (hopefully) fire Clint Hurdle and Neil Huntington, who in their right mind would want to work for the Pirates organization? What is the allure?

Kevbot034
6 years ago
Reply to  Tooele Dave

I’d take Neil Huntiungton’s job if they offered lol

DDD
6 years ago

No doubt Ned Yost deployed some confounding tactics. But, he also earned the respect and loyalty of the Royals’ players and fans alike through his own respect and loyalty to them. They had a hell of a ride in 2014 and then came back and won it all the next year. According to analysts and odds-makers, they had very little chance of going to the WS in 2014 and an equally small chance of winning it in 2015. Since their roster did not indicate they were a playoff contender either season, I can’t help but think it was primarily leadership, team chemistry and determination (oh no! ambiguous, unquantifiable terminology) that enabled them to beat the odds and accomplish what they did. Ned Yost deserves a lot of credit for that – despite those confounding tactics.

JupiterBrandoMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  DDD

Yost is the perfect example of why managerial duties should essentially be split into two jobs — strategist and motivator. One guy (or gal!) to set and deploy lineups and pitching changes; another to explain them and communicate those strategies with players to keep them happy. Yost was historically awful at the former and historically great at the latter.

The Stranger
6 years ago
Reply to  JupiterBrando

Strategy and motivation aren’t separable, though. How a player is used has at least as much bearing on his motivation as what the manager says to him in the clubhouse. And at a basic level, the person making the decisions needs to be the one who owns them and gets the players to buy in. Communication from anybody else in the organization is just putting spin on somebody else’s decisions and I would expect players to care much less about that than what the person making the decisions says and does.

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago

This post should really have been titled; “Royals, In a Reported Attempt to Loose 130 Games, Rumored to Hire Mike Matheny as New Manager”

Six Ten
6 years ago

Gonna get that #1 pick one way or another.

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

And, then choose a guy they think they can sign for underslot money.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
6 years ago

I heard Ned Yost speak at a local church in my hometown a few years ago. He sounds like an incredible guy. He was the greatest tactician, but flags fly forever.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
6 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

Wasn’t *

ScoreboardMember since 2016
6 years ago

This piece is beautifully written. You absolutely torched Matheny and the Royals’ hiring decision in an objective driven way, while also providing concrete feedback for Yost without disrespecting his legacy. I bet a dozen or so articles are written on this topic, but none will read as well studied and even tempered as this one. I’m biased because I also believe your viewpoints, but I still think the delivery of this information avoided a ton of common hot-takes pitfalls.

Bravo Brendan.

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
6 years ago
Reply to  Scoreboard

The overview of Ned Yost the person and Yost the tactician was well-researched and insightful. Kudos indeed for that portion of the article. The Matheny analysis is unfortunately the reverse, however.

It would pretty tedious to pick apart every little critical remark — besides, Matheny deserves some criticism for sure, especially in his mishandling of Kolten Wong and his counterproductive insistence on hyper-aggressive baserunning. But the Hicks/Norris section was deeply misleading, and should be corrected. Per Gawlowski:

“From the outside, it’s difficult to comment decisively on whether Norris’ behavior qualified as bullying; only those in the clubhouse can fully speak to that. But based on Hicks’ response to questions about whether he found Norris’ influence helpful — a clipped “I have no idea. No comment.” — Matheny’s remarks looked almost derisive.”

Now here’s what else Jordan Hicks had to say on the matter:
“He (Norris) has the best intentions for me,” Hicks told the Post-Dispatch. “I think he’s nudging me in the right direction. That’s the best way to put it. I’m a rookie. I need guys guiding me. He actually does care about me. I know that. There are times, though, when he or anyone basically says, ‘You should know better.’ I’m learning from that.”

Link: https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/jordan-hicks-quells-national-controversy-says-norris-has-best-intentions/article_e6176e1c-3210-5547-b2f0-26327f2f3a01.html

It was a teapot tempest, made for the Age Of Outrage, the Twitter culture. A bland minor conflict blown far out of proportion. Lots of clicks for some website some place, I’m sure.

Famous Mortimer
6 years ago

I think if you believe those words were the honest truth, and not something he was leaned on to say, as the rookie, in private, then I have some lunar real estate to sell you.

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago

Matheny’s “counterproductive insistence on hyper-aggressive baserunning.” WTF are you talking about? Matheny was a pure station to station guy. Maybe watch the guy manage before you defend him.

kevinthecomic
6 years ago

Matheny????? Was Ron Washington not available?

senorbushMember since 2024
6 years ago

Matheny is the worst manager of all-time

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  senorbush

Matheny is unusual because he was so bad and lasted so long. Most classic “bad managers” are out so fast you don’t really get to appreciate it.

For example, I would actually nominate Bryan Price and Matt Williams as a worse managers.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I will always nominate Williams pulling Jordan Zimmerman in Game 2 of the 2014 NLDS as the single worst managerial decision of all time, even surpassing Grady Little’s unmentionable brain cramp and a hidden blunder, Terry Collins wasting Jeurys Familia in Game 3 of the 2015 WS and not being himself the next day

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Matt Williams somehow won manager of the year award too, one year before he turned in arguably the worst managing job ever. I believe at one point he had a reliever warm up five different times in a game…and then didn’t use him!

He also failed to pull a pitcher from the game after he got into a fight with his teammate. Matt Williams was the real deal.

The Duke
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Mike matheny is the 27th best manager in baseball history if you go by winning percentage and more than half of the people above him are in the hall of fame.

Hard to believe someone who was so bad at so many elements of managing ranks so highly

Kevbot034
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

He inherited a team off a WS win that just got worse each year he helmed them. It’s believable.

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
6 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

Matheny inherited a team that won the World Series. That World Series winner got great seasons from Albert Pujols and Lance Berkman, who finished 5th and 7th in the 2011 N.L. MVP voting.

Matheny did not have Pujols, of course. And Berkman gave Matheny a grand total of 97 plate appearances — which by the way is why it was rather odd for the author to mention Fat Elvis in the same sentence as Holliday, Wainwright, and Molina. In 2012, with just 17 innings from injured team ace Chris Carpenter, and the lost season from Berkman, Matheny’s first team nevertheless beat their Vegas number by 3 1/2 wins and advanced to the NLCS before losing to the eventual champion Giants.

Then the next year Matheny’s team led the majors in wins.

Then two years after that they led the majors in wins again.

So anyone who says the team “got worse each year he helmed them” is a fool or liar or both.

The Duke
6 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

He did it over a very long period and against all odds made a team that had just lost pujols a better team. It’s just not true that the team got worse each year

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

Winning 87 games with a 100 win quality team is not an accomplishment. The Duke has clearly never stuffed through a season of watching their team with Matheny, “esteemed leader of men,” at the helm. He’s a worse skipper than Edward Smith.

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
6 years ago

Yeah, that wouldn’t be an accomplishment. But you got it backwards. In 2015 Matheny won 100 games with an 87 win quality team. Here’s all the Vegas lines for 2015:
https://www.sportsinsights.com/blog/2015-mlb-win-totals/

I do not like Matheny, and didn’t like him when he managed. His extravagant courtliness toward umpires, his idiotic exhortations to be blindly aggressive on the basepaths, his reluctance to ask for replay reviews, his University of Michigan pedigree, his real estate greed coupled with the bankruptcy copout, and his annoying and pointless public religiosity, all got under my skin. (Take it outside, God Boy.) I could go on, except I’m a nice guy.

But the man could manage a ball team. He beat the PECOTA number by 6 wins a year, Clay Davenport by 5, and Vegas by 4. His teams won 4 playoff series as underdogs (Dodgers twice, plus Nats and Braves) and only lost once as a favorite (2014 v. San Fran). He thought that 6’3″ Matt Carpenter could play second base. I thought that was nuts. But it worked.

Matheny thought Paul DeJong could play shortstop in the big leagues. Some people thought there was zero chance of that. Like one Fangraphs analyst for example:
“Based on what I saw in the Fall League (40 range at short, below-average arm), I have him projected to second base, though I suppose he could be passable at third, as well.
“https://blogs.fangraphs.com/top-24-prospects-st-louis-cardinals/

So, bad range, bad arm. Does that sound like an above average defender at short? But Matheny put him there. And it worked.

Like every manager, Matheny had his good and bad points. But on balance he was well above average. I still don’t like him, but he could manage. And I’ll take the Vegas over for $100, if he gets another gig.

Famous Mortimer
6 years ago

Why have you got such a hard-on for Vegas lines? What do they know that no-one else does?

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago

Nothing.

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago

Matheny didn’t have anything to do with DeJong playing shortstop that was a front office decision. I’ll take your bet any day of the week.

The defense on his teams were bad and got progressively worse each year. And has some how magically improved from the most to the fewest errors committed in one season,which is unprecedented in the history of MLB.

He insisted on utilizing the world’s worst hitting coach. Who flat out failed to help players prepare for games.

No one cares about the Vegas line. It is completely irrelevant and it is not designed to be predictive of performance. It is designed explicitly to balance the over and under bets so that the casinos make money off said bets. How about you show me 1st, 2nd, and 3rd order win percentages and then we can have a conversation about the reliability or accuracy of those projections and what role a manager can have in affecting over or under performance in each of those scenarios.

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
6 years ago

Congrats to both you and, Morbo, and you, Mortimer, for being smarter than Vegas when it comes to forecasting baseball records. It’s an honor to compare notes with a pair of millionaire gamblers!

By the way, I have specifically and repeatedly mentioned Matheny’s record compared to the publicly available projection models. He trounced them all — and worse than he trounced the Vegas lines. Beat Davenport by an average of 5 wins per year and PECOTA by 6 wins per season.

Feel free to rebut that one.

The Duke
6 years ago

You obviously didn’t read my whole comment

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

My bad

Sn0wman
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

He only lasted a year or two, but I’ll always pick Ray Knight as the worst manager I ever saw. Clueless tactically, clueless motivationally, and in such a short time managed to punch a reporter on camera (who did, to be fair, kind of deserve it, but it’s still a poor choice) and lose tracks of the number of outs, having a position player sacrifice with two outs to end the inning.

sogoodlooking
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Mickey Callaway invited himself into that conversation by declaring on August 15th in the NYPost, “I bet 85 percent of our decisions go against the analytics, and that is how it’s always going to be, because that is just on paper.”

kule
6 years ago

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-playoffs-bullpen-managers-mike-matheny-joe-girardi/ I’ll just leave this here

Of course if the Royals are trying to tank this might not be the worst decision

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
6 years ago
Reply to  kule

Man am I glad you linked to that. Thank you!
Lindbergh’s famous study measured how often a manager has the platoon advantage with his reliever. It does not look at FIP or ERA or DRA or any such metrics. Not save percentages or WPA or anything of that nature either. It simply looks at L-L and R-R.

In other words, the only thing Lindbergh measured was tactical conformity, rather than managerial effectiveness. The fact that Matheny was easily the “worst” manager in the study merely proves that he was the least conformist in his bullpen usage. Maybe that made him less effective than other managers…and maybe not. Let’s look at the numbers and find out!

During Matheny’s six full seasons his relievers faced 12,475 batters. I’m sure we all agree that’s plenty more than enough of a sample size to wash out all of the randomness. Here’s where his bullpens ranked in the N.L. over those six seasons:

fWAR 3rd
ERA 4th
WPA 2nd
FIP 4th
x-FIP 3rd

That’s six years of conspicuous excellence. And note that the highest ranking was WPA, indicating that the right guys pitched at the right times. Six years of terrific bullpen success. But all anyone chooses to remember is the “Wacha game.” Perfectly understandable, but not very SABRmetric, I don’t think.

Matheny’s final half season he was saddled with free agent bullpen busts Brett Cecil, Luke Gregerson, and Greg Holland, and the relief corps stunk. Yes, you may spell it “corpse” if you like. (On top of being stuck with those three stooges, Matheny’s front office didn’t promote the top 2 Pacific Coast League ERA leaders — Dakota Hudson and Daniel Ponce De Leon — to the majors until immediately after Matheny’s firing.)

There are actual reasons why Matheny won so many games, and a few dozen more than the projection models and Vegas predicted he would. Bullpen management was one of the reasons.

MorboTheAnnihilator
6 years ago

Saddled with free agent busts? Those free agent busts were brought in precisely because Matheny flat-out refused to use non-veteran relievers in crucial spots despite the fact that the young call ups were much better options. This pattern repeated itself for YEARS.

Neils-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
6 years ago

You have not responded at all to the central point, Morbo.

Please explain how Matheny’s bullpens were excellent over a sample size of more than 12,000 batters, if he’s so poor at bullpen management.

Psychic... Powerless...
6 years ago

Has it been confirmed that Dayton Moore will keep his job?

RadermecherMember since 2018
6 years ago

The Royals have a bargin basement payroll.
Matheny may ask for more than a base salary.
Which could be a blessing in disguise for KC.

RoyalsFan#14321Member since 2024
6 years ago

I really don’t know what to think about this.

stanMember since 2019
6 years ago

I get that certain people might look at Matheny’s record and conclude that he is a good manager. However, one need only look at the coaching-related aspects of his teams: baserunning, bullpen use, fielding and realize that any success he enjoyed was the result of inheriting a world series winner that was run by an elite front office. If there were any doubt of that, you need only look at the radical improvement the team had when Shildt took over. That success continued into this year.