Giancarlo Stanton, Ball-Striking, And The Future
After a few days of heightened speculation, word finally came down on Monday that the Miami Marlins and Giancarlo Stanton had come to an agreement on a historic 13-year, $325M deal. Terms have not been fully disclosed, but it seems clear that Stanton will have the ability to opt out of the deal at some point, most likely after the 2019 season. This is massive news on many levels – it’s the largest dollar guarantee to a single player in the history of the sport, and a huge departure in operating procedure on the part of the club.
It furthers the ongoing industry trend toward diminished free agent pools, as teams continue to lock up their best and brightest in advance of the exhaustion of their six years of team control. Today, let’s take a quick and dirty look at the potential outcomes for player and club by examining Stanton’s foremost attribute – his peerless ball-striking ability.
I’ve gone into fairly significant detail regarding Stanton’s offensive game in previous articles; today I’m going to take a slightly different path, by considering the authority with which he hits the baseball.
We don’t have access to all manner of batted-ball velocity data, but from Home Run Tracker, one finds that Stanton hit the hardest home run (119.9 mph) in all of 2014. He also hit the third-hardest home run. He also hit the 19th-hardest home run of the entire season.
Here’s the top-20 hardest-hit home runs:
| Num | Hitter | Team | Date | MPH |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Giancarlo Stanton | MIA | 5/4/2014 | 119.9 |
| 2 | David Ortiz | BOS | 4/22/2014 | 119.9 |
| 3 | Giancarlo Stanton | MIA | 4/4/2014 | 118.8 |
| 4 | Russell Martin | PIT | 4/9/2014 | 117.7 |
| 5 | Hanley Ramirez | LAD | 6/8/2014 | 117.6 |
| 6 | Hunter Pence | SF | 5/21/2014 | 116.9 |
| 7 | C.J. Cron | LAA | 5/10/2014 | 116.9 |
| 8 | Justin Upton | ATL | 4/10/2014 | 116.5 |
| 9 | Oswaldo Arcia | MIN | 8/3/2014 | 116.5 |
| 10 | Ian Desmond | WSH | 9/16/2014 | 115.9 |
| 11 | Jonathan Schoop | BAL | 4/24/2014 | 115.8 |
| 12 | Matt Holliday | STL | 9/12/2014 | 115.8 |
| 13 | Anthony Rizzo | CHC | 5/3/2014 | 115.7 |
| 14 | Nate Freiman | OAK | 8/17/2014 | 115.6 |
| 15 | Edwin Encarnacion | TOR | 6/1/2014 | 115.5 |
| 16 | Wil Myers | TB | 4/19/2014 | 115.5 |
| 17 | Pedro Alvarez | PIT | 4/4/2014 | 115.5 |
| 18 | Jose Bautista | TOR | 8/30/2014 | 115.5 |
| 19 | Giancarlo Stanton | MIA | 7/18/2014 | 115.4 |
| 20 | Alex Gordon | KC | 5/18/2014 | 115.2 |
What we notice first is that, while Stanton had three of the league’s 20 hardest-hit home runs, no other player had no more than one. Using home-run velocities is just a proxy for overall bat speed, obviously, but Stanton is the best player by this measure.
We else we notice is that there aren’t many Stantons on the table. There are a few different classes of player, a portion of them somewhat mediocre overall. There are some young legitimate power hitters, like Anthony Rizzo and Justin Upton. There is the established, somewhat mediocre free-swinging type, like Pedro Alvarez and Ian Desmond (the latter of whom is a good hitter for a shortstop, but not necessarily overall). Finally, there’s the fresh-faced youngsters with raw power, who don’t yet have a semblance of plate discipline, or even a plan, really – this would encompass Oswaldo Arcia and C.J. Cron.
There aren’t many established, fully-formed all-around star hitters in their mid-thirties on this list. David Ortiz, Matt Holliday, and Jose Bautista are the only three I see. A couple of years ago, Bautista’s name would have been all around a list like this. Since then, however, he has made “The Adjustment”. More on that later.
With Stanton, it goes way beyond the homers. He hits his fly balls, line drives and ground balls harder than anyone else. A season ticket holder in any of the 19 parks in which he played last year was unlikely to see any other hitter – even their home team’s stars, like Mike Trout, Andrew McCutchen or Yasiel Puig – hit a single baseball as hard in 81 games as Stanton did in as few as two or three.
How then, could this massive investment turn out for the Marlins? There are a range of possibilities, and my gut tells me it’s more likely to turn out relatively well. Let’s look at a range of potential outcomes anyway:
POSITIVE OUTCOMES:
– Stanton follows something resembling the classic development path for a player of his age and ability. This player has just turned 25 years old – if the deal goes its full term, at least two-thirds of its length should be composed of peak-level seasons. Stanton is a power-before-hit guy, not hit-before-power, but is about as good as a 25-year-old power-before-hit guy can be. His late-thirties project to be more Mickey Mantle than Hank Aaron, but that’s about as critical as I can be. His strikeout rate is high but improving, and his popup rate is high but acceptable given his prodigious power. His liner rate is slightly below average, but not a problem, and his walk rate is strong. If he can get his unintentional walk rate back to his 2013 level, .400 OBPs might be in his immediate future.
– The national, global and industry economics are strong over the contract period. If times are good, there is labor peace, and attendance remains strong with cable money continuing to exponentially increase, this deal could be a real bargain within a few years.
NEGATIVE OUTCOMES:
– Obviously, serious injury can befall any player. Stanton is no more or less prone to such an occurrence relative to other star players. There is one situation that bears watching, however. Let’s call this the “Casper Wells Effect”. In the summer of 2011, when I was employed by the Seattle Mariners, we acquired Wells in the ill-fated – for us – Doug Fister deal with the Tigers. Wells was no star, but he did have legitimate power. He slugged .538 in limited duty in Detroit in 2010, and .442 for the Tigers before the deal in 2011. He was on fire his first couple of weeks in Seattle, batting .326-.415-.652, with 5 HR – all in Safeco, to the big part of the yard – in just 46 at-bats.
Then, on August 17, 2011, Wells was hit in the face by a Brandon Morrow pitch. He batted all of .125-.222-.250 for the rest of 2011, hit .228-.302-.396 in 2012, and then was Mr. Waiver Wire in 2013, hitting .126-.186-.147. From a scouting perspective, you could easily see him bailing just the slightest bit – he was never the same after the pivotal HBP. His confidence, the one thing a hitter can’t lose, was shot.
Now Giancarlo Stanton is a whole different class of cat than Casper Wells, but the fact remains that the Miami Marlins just guaranteed $325M to a guy who hasn’t had an at bat since being hit in the face with a pitch – and the scene last September in Milwaukee was infinitely scarier than when Wells was – relatively – grazed in the nose by Morrow. This clearly will be something to watch next spring.
– The national, global and industry economics deteriorate over the life of the contract. Bubbles eventually burst. The TV money bubble, at least in some markets, is already showing signs of doing so. The stock market is at an all-time high, but what happens when the Fed stops printing money at will, which they are now in fact saying is their intention? There is a whole lot of crazy stuff going on in the world, in case you haven’t noticed. Some of it could make baseball, and in fact all major sports, seem very inconsequential should circumstances intensify. These are all factors way out of Stanton/baseball’s control, but when any corporation has a long-term $325M debt on its books, long-term outside uncertainties at least have a chance of intruding.
– He doesn’t make “The Adjustment”. In my formative years, I had the privilege of watching Mike Schmidt play baseball for the Phillies every day. For most of the 1970’s, Schmidt struck out a lot, but hit a ton of massive, no-doubt homers to the pull side, while all the way playing Gold Glove caliber defense at third base. A few years after Schmidt’s debut, the Braves’ Dale Murphy entered the league, and began doing the same things, except as a center fielder. As the 1980’s opened, they were the two best players in the National League, with Schmidt winning the MVP in 1980-81, and Murphy matching him in 1983-84.
In his early 30’s, Schmidt noticed that his natural strength was ebbing just the slightest bit, and made some changes to his offensive game. He focused a bit more on contact, and on using the entire field. His average home run distance came way down – but his home run frequency did not. He led the league in homers two more times in 1984 and 1986 at ages 34 and 36, as his K total plunged from an NL-leading 148 in 1983 all the way to 84 in 1986. He copped a final MVP Award in 1986 for his efforts.
On the other hand, Murphy never made “The Adjustment”. He had his last great year at age 31 in 1987, drilling 44 homers and putting up a .295-.417-.580 line. He never again slugged above .421 – he went from superstar to below average offensive corner outfielder in record time. Could there have been other factors at play? Sure – a lot of players seemed to get a lot bigger around that time, while Murphy did not – but in any event, he did not make the adjustments necessary for continued excellence once his natural gifts began to decline.
Jose Bautista showed many signs of making “The Adjustment” last season. His popup totals are way down, and his K rate continues to improve. He isn’t hitting the ball as hard or as far, but his “technical merit” scores are clearly improving, at the age of 33. I like his intermediate-term prognosis a lot more than I did a couple of years ago.
Bautista represents a good role model for Stanton, stylistically. The Marlin Masher is nowhere near the point where he needs to make material adjustments at the plate, but that day will come. If he can pull a Bautista once his physical gifts show signs of natural erosion, he can still be an offensive force in the latter stages of his earth-moving deal. Making “The Adjustment” could be the difference between it being a merely good, or great deal from the Marlins’ perspective.
Where do you get these wonderful toys?
Specifically the batted ball velocity data.
no really. where did you get it?
He worked in baseball. You can pay a couple grand to Stats inc, I believe, if you want it.
Click on the link in the article, or just go to hittrackeronline.com.
On second pass I read below there was more comprehensive data in previous versions of this post. STATS is probably where it’s at.
Trade him.
Any positive outcome is very unlikely to be a 13 year deal. If he plays well next 6 seasons he will almost certainly opt out (assuming the various bubbles have not burst).
This is an obvious observation – but if he plays well for first 6 years the Marlins will get a great deal on this contract.
Excellent article. I am really intrigued by the use of batted ball speeds for different batted ball outcomes. I’d love to dig deeper into this data. For starters, I’m wondering if there’s a direct correlation between batted ball speed and plate discipline (specifically O-swing % and Contact%). Intuitively, it seems like there should be, but it would be interesting to see some of the outliers.
It’s difficult for me to see how this is a good deal for the Marlins.
One, Stanton was under contract for two more years so I thought when clubs approached players about extending prior to the end of their term of contract, this would result in something of a discount (i.e., the player foregoes some money in exchange for the security that a long term deal provides). But at $325 million over 13 years, how is there any discount in this deal? Stanton is not worth $400 million on the open market.
Second, if Stanton performs great, he can opt out. But if he never fully recovers from his injury (likely due to shaken confidence as Tony discusses in the Casper Wells Effect above) or just goes into early decline per some of his Baseball Reference comps (hat tip to tz, who provided these in the other Stanton post of yesterday with names like Juan Gone, Bob Horner, and Jack Clark and the only standout players being Andrew Jones (significant portion of value derived from defense) and Frank Robinson), he is paid $325 million over three years more than a decade.
So what are the Marlins really getting for all of this money? No discount even though Stanton isn’t due to be a free agent until two more seasons PLUS Stanton gets an opt out so if he performs on a HOF level they don’t even get the benefit of that bargain (unless he assesses the market when he is eligible to opt out and is not confident he could exceed this contract – a distinct possibility)?
Seems like a very, very expensive and desperate search for credibility by Loria. But why now? Loria hasn’t cared that he has no credibility the entire time he has owned the Marlins. So why care about credibility now? The Marlins have finished something like last in the National League in attendance for four consecutive years (don’t quote me off this – just off the top of my head) WITH STANTON!!
So how does it make sense to pay all this money to make him stay? Maybe if they were climbing the attendance ladder as he improved / the team improved you can see a kernel of sense, but I’m not sure I understand this move from the Marlins standpoint.
It’s amazing that the team goes from incredible tightfisted-ness to completely throwing caution to the wind in one single astonishing, staggering contract. And no, this doesn’t really compare to two winters ago when they acquired Jose Reyes, Josh Johnson, Heath Bell, Buehrele et al. because they refused to give a no-trade clause to any of the players signed to free agent deals and just shipped them out one year or so later. Here, Stanton would be tough to trade with that type of contract and further it appears the Marlins are including a no-trade clause.
Is it possible that in a private meeting MLB (under pressure from the MLBPA) basically told Loria he needs to spend or else? Because I can’t see how this makes sense for the Marlins or why Loria (a thrifty-to-a fault-type of guy and that description is a gentle euphemism) would possibly offer and agree to this type of contract (13 / $325 million; opt-out; and no trade clause).
The way this is a good deal for the Marlins is that Stanton plays 5 (or 6, whichever the opt-out is after) good years and then opts out. $125 million for the next 5 years of Giancarlo Stanton is likely to be a significantly below-market deal even after allowing for the two arbitration years that buys out.
I think the best way to analyze these opt-out/player option/team option deals is to look at it as almost being two contracts: the “locked-in” portion, which in this case is 5/$125 million (well below market), and then the possible remainder of the contract. To get that below-market rate on Stanton’s peak years, the Marlins insured him against an early decline by guaranteeing that his “next” contract will be at least 8/$200 million.
Thanks The Stranger. What you just wrote makes a lot of sense to me and I appreciate your insight.
The interesting thing when you examine this through the lens you provided is that one wonders if the Marlins wouldn’t be thrilled if Stanton performed well and just took off at the first opportunity when the opt-out presented itself.
Then they get 5 years and $125 million of value, and are relieved of the future payroll obligation.
But boy…if he doesn’t perform well and they have to pay that 8 year / $200 million insurance policy that is one heckuva liability.
Good thoughts above. I am thinking of this as an owner and in an economic sense. As soon as Stanton plays like Stanton in 2015, this contract begins to look better. Ticket and merchandise sales increase due to the contract. Over the short run, this is a big positive for the perceived value of the contract in the eyes of someone looking to buy the team. I look for a buyer to come around in a couple of years and move the team to a bigger market where the Stanton contract will have better value in the long run.
Given the state of competition and their rising young talent, the Marlins have a real shot at contending over the next few years — maybe not 2015, but probably by 2016. And they’ll need Stanton around for that to happen.
And given how they operate, there’s good likelihood they’ll blow it all up again by end of this decade anyway, which is when Stanton can opt out. At that point, if they do want to blow it up, that will give Stanton incentive to opt out or choose to be traded… of course, that’s assuming he’s still at/near peak form at that point.
OR… if everything plays out perfectly for the Marlins (including their overall financial situation), maybe they will finally stop blowing it up so quickly by end of the decade.
Remember, as long as Stanton can still make good $$$ elsewhere, he won’t want to stick around during the next blow-up…
Of course there are risks here, eg. full recovery from that HBP-in-the-face, his seeming injury-proneness so far, his need to eventually “adjust” (though that could easily be after his opt-out and/or next Marlins’ blow-up kicks in)…
Re the so-called Casper Wells Effect –
David Wright too was not the same hitter for probably 1.5 years after being hit in the face by a Matt Cain ball.
I don’t know Casper Wells story, but he’s probably the better analogy if he was truly finished after being hit.
But if you’re talking 1.5 to 2 years lingering effect for a franchise player, then Wright is certainly the guy here as Eno could tell you.
Wright also had other issues though, including nagging injuries, that can drag him down some. Plus Wright was never really a big power-hitting type anyway, so his power can probably easily disappear when there are compounding issues…
The player most comparable to Giancarlo Stanton at age 24 is Adam Dunn.
http://saberbucs.net/2014/11/17/giancarlo-stantons-player-comparable-who-will-the-marlins-be-paying-when-stanton-is-35-37/
There are somethings worth considering though, if you’re going to draw the comparison.
Stanton has done it for 5 years in offensive declining environment while Dunn did it for 4 years in peak offensive environment.
Stanton’s K and BB rates have been trending better while Dunn’s were mostly trending worse during the same stretch.
Maybe you didn’t realize, but Dunn was actively choosing the 3-true-outcome route and forgoing use of his speed — yes, he was indeed more athletic than people assumed back when he was young. IF Stanton’s smart and learns from Dunn’s example (amongst others), he may opt for better balance rather than go all out in the direction Dunn took. So far, it seems like he might be doing just that.
IF you really want to know, you should probably at least check out trends in their contact rates and such underlying peripherals and not merely rely on basic K and BB rates (and ISO) w/out even considering how they’re trending. We are, afterall, talking about young players (right after their 24-yo season) who still have plenty time for development, including the article’s point about the “adjustment” to be made in their 30’s — that’s something Dunn never got a good handle of…
Also, don’t forget that Stanton’s homepark is tougher on HRs than Dunn’s homepark during that same stretch. Plus Dunn was substantially weaker against lefties back then than Stanton is against righties now — and Dunn’s weakness against lefties got worse over time as he sold out more for HRs and had his weakness exposed further.
And as Psy Jung point out below, there are lots to consider in any such comparison…
When Stanton was a rookie he said he wanted to be a .300 hitter and not just a slugger. Watching him over the years, he’s learned how to use his power for more than just HRs. There’s no way he ends up like Dunn.
A point: one on one comparisons are a bit stretched because the comparisons inevitably break down. No player is exactly like another, and things like plate discipline and power numbers aren’t the whole story when we’re talking about a specific player. For example, Stanton has a career .330 babip, Dunn was at .292 through his first 5 seasons. You’re also looking at very different run environments: K-rates are up, power is down, so a player like Stanton is more of an outlier than Dunn would have been in the early 2000s and the comparisons aren’t necessarily so straight forward. but keep it going.
rather, more of a power outlier, less glaringly strikeout ridden
Your comparison doesn’t pass my red-flag test, because you neglect to account for offensive era and context.
I don’t know if this is the official post about the signing, but one thing to consider is the opportunity cost of not trading him. Not only are they giving him a 13 year, $325MM contract with an opt-out clause, but they’re also giving up the chance to cash in on several elite prospects. I don’t know exactly what type of package they would have received, but I’m sure it would be mind blowing, and there would be a few ML-ready prospects instead of just lower-level prospects. With their young core, they could have set themselves up for a few more years.
At some point, the Marlins do have to actually try to contend though.
And given the current environment, I’m guessing Loria wants to give it a go w/ Stanton. IF they trade him, they’ll be losing that opp to contend. Sure, maybe 2015 isn’t realistic, but 2016 may well be.
Besides, as long as Stanton is still performing like Stanton, they should have little trouble dealing him if/when they find they cannot contend. Even w/ the no-trade clause, Stanton will himself want out if the Marlins are actually blowing things up again.
Sure, there are risks w/ this, but at least this way they’re giving themselves a shot at contending in the next few years… and can still blow it up if/whenever they see things going south.
I actually believe that Loria would have another fire sale at some point in an effort to get him to opt-out.
Agreed. I do think that’s the most likely outcome unless Loria blows it up even sooner and gives Stanton the incentive to accept a trade instead. 🙂
Basically, as long as Stanton fully recovers from that HBP-in-the-face and doesn’t have an unexpectedly premature decline, the Marlins won’t likely be stuck after the opt-out year if they remain as open to blowing-up-and-rebuilding as they’ve been all along…
I will go even further. They brought in a psychologist, and had him evaluate Giancarlo, surreptitiously or not. They wanted to be as sure as possible that they can drive him out by gutting the team in 2018-2019. And so they bought his arbitration years at below market value (I dare say well below), the plan is to push him out and have the Yankees pay 2/3 of his contract. Of course as all devious plans, injuries and Stanton realizing what is going on may derail this whole thing. The no trade clause is meaningless since they would be able to push him to void it. All this due to his eagerness to win it all.
Your macroeconomic analysis is pretty dubious here. “The stock market is at an all-time high, but what happens when the Fed stops printing money at will, which they are now in fact saying is their intention?”
Well, the usual take is that the Fed’s quantitative easing is going to lead to inflation. But right now we’re in a period of really low inflation–and baseball contracts are still going up. And the Fed is not planning to raise interest rates until the economy, and inflation, really pick up.
The current low-inflation regime is pretty bad for taking on long-term debt; the upside is probably that inflation increases, decreasing the real value of the long-term contract. The downslide would be something like a slide into actual deflation, which is something that the Fed would do its level best to prevent unless the US government gets taken over by gold-standard cranks or something like that.
He’s not necessarily saying it will, this is merely a scenario that he has concieved – one of many – that lower demand for wins.
If we slide into a deflationary trap, the value of this contract will be the least of the Marlins worries. It would get to be really hard to get people spend money to come out to the ballpark at all, and Marlins Park is ugly to begin with.
The point remains.
The Marlins, if anything, should pray that Stanton plays awesomely well and chooses to opt out of the rest of his contract. This will be the best long-term result for them.
No new observation, but as was said in the article, it is indeed remarkable how Stanton appears on so many parks’ top ball speed lists – in spite of his smaller sample size there. I just remarked on it, so it’s remarkable.
And ironic that the lowest avg top-ball-strike speed is Tampa, also in Florida? No, not ironic at all – but interesting.
Wonderful data. Mad props on the observations, writing.
I just read that the deal is significantly backloaded; if he walks after his opt-out year (after 5 or 6), he’ll forfeit more than 2/3 the value of the contract. One can only wonder what shenanigans the Marlins could pull to make Stanton want to leave all that money.
I swear this article is way different from the first time I read it. How many more runs are hard-hit home runs worth, both for the team, and for the player?
Wait, when i read this article this morning, I thought it had a little table showing hardest hit GB/LD/FB by park. Now, when i was going to send the link to someone, I don’t see the table. Am I crazy?
Yes, the table you are referring to was there this morning. Tony must have been called out for releasing Hit Fx or Trackman data that either wasn’t supposed to have or didn’t have the authority to share.
Interesting. Very interesting.
props to my boy Jonny Schoop
“…with Schmidt winning the MVP in 1980-81, and Murphy matching him in 1983-84.”
Murphy won it right after Schmidt, 1982-83.