Handicapping the Award Races: Cy Young

Having finished among the top five in voting every year since 2013, Chris Sale is this season’s favorite .
(Photo: Keith Allison)

Last week, I ran down the latest ZiPS projections for the MVP awards. The Cy Young tends to be a bit simpler to project than the MVP, for a number of reasons: there are no positional differences for which to adjust (outside of starter vs. reliever), no consideration of defense, fewer candidates (because hitters aren’t eligible for the award, where pitchers can win the MVP), and finally, fewer pitching stats from which to measure performance. One historical note of interest is that, while team quality plays a factor, it appears to be a less predictive factor than it is for MVP, also serving to make things a bit less difficult.

Before I begin, one clarification from the MVP post: the award percentages that appear here aren’t based on each player’s mean final projections, but from the whole array of possibilities, 1st to 99th percentile, for each player. So, for example, Giancarlo Stanton’s projected award chance of 2.8% isn’t predicated on him winning the award based on his predicted final line, but from the better scenarios in which he exceeded that current projected final line.

ZiPS 2018 AL Cy Young Projections, 8/13/18
Rank Player Win %
1 Chris Sale 29.9%
2 Trevor Bauer 26.0%
3 Luis Severino 11.5%
4 Corey Kluber 10.1%
5 Justin Verlander 8.5%
6 Gerrit Cole 5.6%
7 Carlos Carrasco 1.5%
8 Charlie Morton 1.3%
9 James Paxton 1.0%
10 Edwin Diaz 0.9%
NA The Field 3.8%

There’s a popular perception that Chris Sale wears out down the stretch. The perception is supported by his career splits: Sale has a career ERA below three for each of the first four months of the season with a 3.22 ERA for August and a 3.78 ERA in September. This data isn’t quite as robust as some suggest, but assuming for the sake of argument that it reflects something real, it’s also worth nothing that Sale’s been used more carefully than in past seasons. At this point in 2017, Sale had thrown at least 110 pitches in 16 starts after having crossed that threshold 10 times in both of the previous two seasons. This year, he’s at only four. The FanGraphs Depth Charts have Sale finishing at just 187 innings for the season, his lowest figure since 2014. ZiPS projects Sale to finish the year with the most strikeouts and best ERA in the AL while also tying for the highest WAR mark. The combination of his own performance plus the strength of the Red Sox make him a strong bet to go over the top.

A lot can happen in two months, but I have to agree with the projections that Trevor Bauer is the Cleveland starter to watch in the race. Bauer quite notably tinkered with his repertoire over the offseason, most obviously his slider, and it’s paid off in his start-to-start consistency. By Game Score, Bauer’s only had three below-average starts the entire 2018 season, and only two of those were true stinkers. ZiPS still feels Sale’s the better pitcher, but Bauer’s likely to end up with a 20-inning edge, so long as his line-drive-induced ankle soreness doesn’t become a nagging issue. Corey Kluber and Carlos Carrasco are close enough to make things interesting, but if everyone hits their projections, Bauer’s the favorite of the three.

Above and beyond the actual stats, I wonder how much, if any, extra credit Luis Severino will receive based on the state of the Yankee rotation. The Astros, Indians, and Red Sox all have deep rotations, but the Yankee starters drop off considerably after Severino and there’s a very real, justifiable perception that, as an anchor, he’s more important to the Yankees than the other top candidates have been to their teams. That may not be a huge voting factor — I would suggest it’s not — but Severino’s stats are in Cy Young territory already, with no additional storyline help.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed.
We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member.
1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other.
2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off.
3. Dark mode and Classic mode!
4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them.
5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects.
6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.)
7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only.
8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members.
10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features!
We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it.

Speaking of perception, Justin Verlander may be better off if you flipped the temporal order of his recent starts and early-season starts. Only 2-5 with a 4.38 ERA over his last nine starts, no doubt hurt by a .357 BABIP, Verlander’s relatively poor run has come at a time during which the team has been without Carlos Correa (now back) and Jose Altuve.

Only one reliever makes the final top 10, Edwin Diaz of the Mariners. With 15 strikeouts for every nine innings and at least 10 saves more than the next-best closer — yes, many voters still care about saves — Diaz has the strongest case of any closer for Cy Young consideration in the AL, likely in all of baseball with Kenley Jansen’s health. ZiPS and Steamer both have Diaz with a mean projection of 55 saves, which would tie him with Eric Gagne and John Smoltz for the third-most in a single season. Every closer with 55 saves in a season has gotten at least some Cy Young consideration.

ZiPS 2018 NL Cy Young Projections, 8/13/18
Rank Player Win %
1 Max Scherzer 54.8%
2 Aaron Nola 21.3%
3 Jacob deGrom 13.7%
4 Patrick Corbin 3.4%
5 Zack Greinke 2.1%
6 Miles Mikolas 1.8%
7 Clayton Kershaw 0.3%
8 Kyle Freeland 0.3%
9 Jake Arrieta 0.2%
10 Felipe Vazquez 0.2%
NA The Field 1.9%

ZiPS doesn’t see as close a race in the National League, with Scherzer already at 15 wins, second in WAR, and featuring a 33-strikeout lead over Jacob deGrom and Patrick Corbin. Like Luis Severino with the Yankees, there’s a very real perception that Scherzer’s largely been carrying Washington’s rotation. Scherzer’s 2.72 FIP is a caree -best, no mean feat for a pitcher who already has three Cy Young awards.

Aaron Nola’s been my favorite underrated pitcher for at least a year now, and Philadelphia’s emergence this season may have moved him to the point at which he’s simply rated. How much has ZiPS liked Nola? Coming into 2016 ZiPS had Nola in the top 40 for WAR remaining among pitchers, moving up to 10th before 2017 and fifth before 2018. I’m skeptical he can really catch Scherzer — I think the Silver Hammer has it wrapped up — but Nola’s a legitimate ace and a large reason why the Phillies have taken a step forward now rather than in 2019 and 2020.

Jacob deGrom is an interesting case in that he represents a litmus test for how the voters of today value pitcher wins relative to those from 20 or 30 years ago. The fewest wins for a Cy Young pitcher in a full season (Fernando’s 13 was in strike-shortened 1981) was Felix Hernandez’s 13 wins in 2010. But King Felix also had 75 innings over the only pitcher anywhere near him in ERA (Clay Buchholz). Are voters ready to vote for a 10-game winner as the Cy Young? I absolutely would be willing to — I spent a whole day working on my Cy Young ballot in 2017 and looked at win totals for precisely zero minutes — but if you ranked the voters by their hatred of pitcher wins, I’d likely be at or near the top.

Patrick Corbin and Zack Greinke’s cases are strong enough — and the Diamondbacks relevant enough — that a hot six weeks could propel either to the Cy Young. Corbin, in particular, still ranks as the toughest pitcher against which to make contact in the National League in 2018, behind only Sale in the majors as a whole, so he’s certainly capable of some kind of 6-1, 1.50 run that proves to be the key to beating out the Dodgers in the NL West. He’d probably still need Max Scherzer to falter, which is easier said than done.

I think it would be a major upset if any pitcher outside of the top five presented here gets serious consideration. ZiPS projects no NL pitchers to beat 15 wins outside of Scherzer, Nola, and Greinke, which is why you see Miles Mikolas rank so highly. At 12-3, the Lizard King could end up at 18-3 or 17-4 and get votes in the same way J.A. Happ did in 2016, but I can’t see him actually winning the award, great story that he is.

Clayton Kershaw remains interesting in that he still managed to finish second in the voting last year with only 175 innings, but he’s not likely to get much farther than 150 innings this year and with less impressive rate stats. I think his Cy Young candidacy is dead in the water unless something truly crazy happens, such as an Orel Hershiser-esque scoreless streak to put the Dodgers over-the-top.

For those curious, here is how ZiPS saw the Top 5 for the Cy Young each of the last five years.

Projected Cy Young Order, 2013-2017
2017 AL 2016 AL 2015 AL 2014 AL 2013 AL 2017 NL 2016 NL 2015 NL 2014 NL 2013 NL
Corey Kluber Rick Porcello David Price Corey Kluber Max Scherzer Max Scherzer Max Scherzer Jake Arrieta Clayton Kershaw Clayton Kershaw
Chris Sale Justin Verlander Dallas Keuchel Felix Hernandez Anibal Sanchez Clayton Kershaw Johnny Cueto Clayton Kershaw Johnny Cueto Adam Wainwright
Carlos Carrasco Corey Kluber Chris Sale Max Scherzer Bartolo Colon Stephen Strasburg Jose Fernandez Zack Greinke Adam Wainwright Cliff Lee
Luis Severino Chris Sale Collin McHugh Jon Lester Felix Hernandez Zack Greinke Jon Lester Gerrit Cole Jordan Zimmermann Matt Harvey
Craig Kimbrel J.A. Happ Chris Archer David Price Yu Darvish Kenley Jansen Clayton Kershaw Max Scherzer Zack Greinke Mat Latos





Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.

128 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
southie
8 years ago

Sale looked like his shoulder was really bothering him Sunday. 5 innings, 1 hit, 12 strikeouts.

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  southie

Let’s see how he does when he gets back to facing big league competition.

Pretty amazing that Sale recorded 12 strikeouts on only 48 strikes. When you add the four balls in play, that is a minimum of 40 strikes, so the Orioles must not have even been fouling hardly any pitches off with 2 strikes.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  southie

To anybody who thinks Sale really had an arm injury I have a bridge I will sell to you real cheap. It was simply a ruse to get him a couple of weeks off.

PedroMartinez45
8 years ago
Reply to  southie

Edit: please delete – accidentally double posted.

PedroMartinez45
8 years ago
Reply to  southie

I think Alex Cora made the right decision being cautious, but I can’t help but wonder if Sale could have reached the immortal 20-K club in that game if he was given a longer leash.

rounders
8 years ago

Farrell let him go after 300 K last year which is one of the innumerable reasons for which he was fired.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  rounders

Only thing was last year the division was a much tighter race. So they couldn’t do much to rest him… This year they can. Huge difference there….

Glevin
8 years ago

Strength of schedule matters here. The Central is dire. Maybe the worst division I have ever seen in decades of following baseball. Bauer has 23 starts. 13 have been against the central. He’s been amazing. Ramirez has been incredible. Lindor has been fantastic… but Cleveland players are putting up numbers against what are essentially AAAA teams. This is the list of player still on central teams (not Cleveland) who have a WAR of 1 or above: Merrifield, Iglasias, Rosario, Anderson, Moncada, Kepler, Candelario, Castellanos, Perez. That’s the central “all-star” team. The top 3 pitchers in the central not in Cleveland have been this year? Berrios, Kyle Gibson, and Matt Boyd. If you made an all-star team of the 4 central teams, they wouldn’t be a playoff team (OK, maybe they’d vie for the second Wildcard. Not sure).

Lucas Maloney
8 years ago
Reply to  Glevin

Not just that, I think Blake Snell deserves some credit for having to pitch in the AL East and maintaining the stats he’s posted this season. I thought he was at least in the conversation earlier, maybe his DL stint took him out?

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Glevin

I really don’t want Bauer to win, but it looks like he and Sale have faced reasonably similar competition just eyeballing their game logs. Both have faced the Yankees twice and Houston once. Bauer has not faced the Red Sox (nor has Sale, obviously). Bauer faced other AL Central teams 13 times by my count and Sale has faced non-CLE Central teams, the Orioles, Jays, and Rays 13 times. The Jays and Rays are a little better than the Central teams but it’s a difference of less than .010 points of wOBA between them and the Twins. Bauer also looks to have faced tougher interleague opponents and all in the AL ballpark.

I’m sure someone could come up with more granular data about what individual hitters they’ve each faced, but just looking at it on a team level, it doesn’t seem particularly lopsided.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Baseball Reference shows that Sale has faced teams that score 4.61 runs per game whereas Bauer has faced teams that score 4.44 runs per game. But Bauer has pitched in tougher parks – average park factor of 106.2 vs 100.7 for Sale.

tung_twista
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

The runs scored somewhat mitigates the park factor.
It means that the teams that Bauer faced scored less runs per game even though they generally play in a more hitter friendly ball park implying the gap in the hitting ability between the teams might actually be greater.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

Actually it doesn’t. From the BR website: “We use park factors to convert opponent scoring to a league-average context”.

So the 4.44 runs vs 4.61 runs is based on a league average park context.

dl80Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  Glevin

Forgot Soler and Narvaez. Plus, it’s not as if the other good players who were traded didn’t ever face Bauer this year. The Central is terrible, but you can’t look at the state of the teams there today and assume that tells the state of the past 4 months.

Jason BMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  dl80

I dunno, the state of the non-Cleveland Central teams today is: terrible.

The state of the non-Cleveland central teams for the last 4 months: also terrible.

BradleyZimmernsBizarreHitsMember since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  Glevin

Sure the Central sucks but as Don Zimmer points out, they have done similarly well against common opponents. What’s more, unless you can demonstrate that the weakness of the AL Central unduly benefited Bauer, this is pointless prognosticating.

Bauer by the numbers, sub .500 vs .500+

17 starts vs 8 starts
2.20 ERA vs 2.26
11.6 k/9 vs 11.7 k/9
3.77 k/bb vs 3.94
1.102 WHIP vs 1.065

In fact if anyone feasted on weaker competition, its Sale with a 1.50 ERA vs sub .500 teams vs 2.73 vs good teams

And while Sale may have faces offenses that score ~.2 rpg more, the park factor in Cleveland is .174 runs higher.

In the end, it won’t and shouldn’t come down to the stronger division but how Sale does ROS considering his history

caesar_solid
8 years ago

Sale simply performing better against bad teams is in no way a mark against him, that’s what he should be doing

the difference is about opportunity, Bauer may have performed the same against weaker teams, but he also had fewer opportunities to play poorly against better teams

Psychic... Powerless...
8 years ago

I hope ZIPS is wrong about Nola finishing ahead of deGrom. I just don’t see any justification for voting that way, unless you’re going strictly by wins.

Dooduh
8 years ago

How is deGrom 3rd??

While the AL order looks right, I would have thought the AL race has Sale with the sort of lead you have for Scherzer.

aff10
8 years ago
Reply to  Dooduh

deGrom’s 6-7. Stupid as it is, some voters care about that. If it were a Fangraphs vote, deGrom’s 1 or 2 in all likelihood. With the mixed bag that is the BBWAA, I’d be hard-pressed to see him winning.

bluerum29
8 years ago
Reply to  aff10

You play to win the game. You want to be a starter and win the cy young, give me minimum 15 wins. Ex. What Greg Maddux did for 100 years in a row.

aff10
8 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

Yeah dude I don’t care. Maddux had 5,000 innings with a 76 ERA- . That’s enough for me to accept his greatness, regardless of how good his teammates were on the days he started. deGrom’ awesome, his teammates suck, and I don’t fault him for that.

BradleyZimmernsBizarreHitsMember since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

It helps having a first ballot HOFer and a borderline guy in Andruw plus multiple all stars I’m your lineup when you’re trying to get wins

rounders
8 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

You put Maddox in with the Mets and he’d be Greg who? The only guy in the modern era ever to dominate and win with a shitty team was Koufax. OK, Carlton, one season.

bluerum29
8 years ago
Reply to  rounders

I’ve always loved statistics, was my favorite class in college. But millennial analytic stat geeks make me sad. Only making the sport worse. You play to win the game.

tb.25
8 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

If it’s your first time to the site, bluerum, then apologies ahead of time…

You don’t seem to understand luck and baseball. A team can score 20 runs one night and give their pitcher a win despite the pitcher giving up 10 runs. Is he good? NO.

Another team could score 1 and lose 2-1, where their starter gave up none and the bullpen blew the lead. Is that starter bad? NO.

Wins and Losses are idiotic to use as barometer for skill, let alone for the CY Young Award.

bluerum29
8 years ago
Reply to  tb.25

This is why you don’t ONLY look at wins. But they matter, why? because that is the purpose of the game. A pitchers main job, is to give his team a chance to win on any given night. That means different things in every game. Depending on the team you face and the opposing pitcher, you may need to hold them to 1 run to have a chance. Or you might be able to give some up here and there against a worse team. And I’ve been reading this site for a few years now. Just don’t agree with everything.

Pwn Shop
8 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

Let me tell you about a pitcher who had the most WAR in baseball (8), but finished with a losing record (18-19) presumably because the team was only about a 0.500 team. Cy Young, 1905.

radiohead
8 years ago

I’d have deGrom ahead of Nola, personally. I think he and Scherzer are a coin flip.

Dooduh
8 years ago
Reply to  radiohead

This. And I think the BBWAA is by now in their ‘post-wins’ phase. I don’t think deGrom is going to be ‘docked’ at all for his meager win total. Everyone realizes that he’s having an historic year.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dooduh

If Scherzer gets up to 20 wins, and has a low 2 ERA, he’s going to win pretty close to unanimously.

Also how exactly is deGrom having a historic year? It’s a great season- but historic? I don’t think so.

The Tango tracker has Scherzer with a huge lead right now- 81.0-70.5.

gregqd
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I believe Dooduh means historic from a run support/wins-relative-to-performance perspective.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

deGrom’s run support though isn’t as bad as you think. He’s like #10 lowest in run support this season with 3.6 per game. Folks forget about April where the Mets in his 6 starts scored 36 runs, or the start later where Mets got 12 vs Colorado. Or even last start where he got 7 runs. He’s going to wind up with 10-11 wins, and an ERA probably right around 2. I think that season has been done some.

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

When they were scoring runs in April, the manager had a short leash and the bullpen blew leads.

It has undoubtedly been a historic season from the perspective of a team’s inability to convert his level of performance into statistical Wins for the individual.

Stupideas22
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

You can NOT look at averages with a team as inconsistent as the Mets. They have a game with 12 runs, four of 8, and two of 6 runs, and two of 5. This doesn’t factor how much they scored while he was in the game to receive them, mind you. But besides these nine games where they’ve scored an average of 7.3 runs per game, they’ve given him 15 starts with an average of 1.6 runs of support through all 9 innings. Even if you simply took that meager average of 3.79 (up from what you said because of their outburt vs. Yankees,) supporting runs he gets per game and applied it to all of his starts, it comes out to 15 wins he’d have. So yes, 3.6 runs is enough to have some wins, but not on the Mets, where they a) kill your wins and then b) take away the evidence by scoring a bunch of runs in a few laughers and so they can laugh maniacally as everybody goes “I don’t get what all the fuss about, their averages are pretty decent.”

Dooduh
8 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

I mean the number of SPers who’ve had an ERA in the 1.70s (let alone below 2) in the past 50 seasons you could count on 1 hand. I mean his ERA and FIP are both nearly a half run better than Scherzer. Why do we have these metrics to measure pitcher performance if we aren’t going to use them to give out the hardware?

jgrub7
8 years ago
Reply to  Dooduh

If DeGrom does not win the CYA (and it is pretty likely he will not), it would not be the first time a player with a sub 2.00 ERA AND led the league in ERA did not win the award. Here is a list of all of them:

1967 – Phil Niekro (1.87)
1968 – Luis Tiant (1.60)
1971 – Tom Seaver (1.76)
1972 – Luis Tiant (1.91)
1981 – Nolan Ryan (1.69)
1990 – Roger Clemens (1.93)
1996 – Kevin Brown (1.89)
2005 – Roger Clemens (1.87)
2015 – Zack Greinke (1.66)

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

Interesting, but who beat them?

jgrub7
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

1967 – Mike McCormick (2.85) (Diff = 0.98 ERA)
1968 – Denny McLain (1.96) (Diff = 0.36)
1971 – Fergie Jenkins (2.77) (Diff = 0.99)
1972 – Gaylord Perry (1.92) (Diff = 0.01)
1981 – Fernando Valenzuela (2.48) (Diff = 0.79)
1990 – Bob Welch (2.95) (Diff = 1.03)
1996 – John Smoltz (2.94) (Diff = 1.05)
2005 – Chris Carpenter (2.83) (Diff = 0.96)
2015 – Jake Arrieta (1.77) (Diff = 0.11)

Dooduh
8 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

Yeah, we know that pitcher Wins were highly valued then… more than ERA. All those CY winners had more Wins.

herbsmith
8 years ago
Reply to  Dooduh

Well, in ’71 Fergie Jenkins actually let all of MLB in WAR. The Cy was a controversial vote at the time, because Seaver was a 20-game winner and led Jenkins in ERA by a full run. However, he threw about 40 fewer innings, and played his home games in an extreme pitcher’s park, while Jenkins (home park: Wrigley) led the NL with 325 IP.
(But yeah, the fact that Jenkins led the NL with 24 wins was probably the deciding factor for many voters).

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

Stats according to Baseball Reference. At least three pretty gross cases of the Wins heavily shifting the decision (1967, 1990, and 2005), but certainly acted as at worst a tiebreaker in just about every case.

1967 – Phil Niekro (1.87) bested by Mike McCormick, who led the league with 22 Wins (against 10 Losses), and nothing else. Jim Bunning led the NL in WAR
1968 – Luis Tiant (1.60) bested by Denny McLain during his famous 31 Win season. Tiant did lead the league in WAR, but McLain was 2nd (8.5 to 7.4). McLain also logged an ERA of 1.85.
1971 – Tom Seaver (1.76) bested by Fergie Jenkins, who led the league with 24 Wins (against 13 Losses). While Seaver was 1st in Pitcher WAR, Jenkins led the league in WAR (11.8 vs. 11.0 for Seaver). Jenkins also had a crazy 7.1 K/BB.
1972 – Luis Tiant (1.91) bested by Gaylord Perry, who logged an ERA of 1.92 himself, along with leading the league in Pitcher WAR and overall WAR.
1981 – Nolan Ryan (1.69) bested by the aforementioned Fernando Valenzuela. I think Ryan must have been hurt this season, as he’s not even in the Top 10 for IP. Could make an argument for Steve Carlton > Valenzuela, though.
1990 – Roger Clemens (1.93) bested by Bob Welch and his 27 Wins. Welch was not in the Top 10 in overall or Pitching WAR, and his ERA was a full run lower than Clemens’ (2.95)
1996 – Kevin Brown (1.89) bested by John Smoltz. Brown finished first in Pitching WAR while Smoltz came in second. Smoltz case was bolstered by his league leading 24 Wins, although he also led the league in K/9 and FIP (among other things).
2005 – Roger Clemens (1.87) bested by Chris Carpenter, who’s Pitching WAR was a full two wins below Clemens’ (7.8 to 5.8). Carpenter did win 21 games, but was second in that stat to Dontrelle Willis, while Clemens finished 13-8.
2015 – Zack Greinke (1.66) bested by Jake Arrieta, who also had a sub-2.00 ERA (1.77). Greinke also led the league in Pitching WAR (9.1 to Arrieta’s 8.3), while Arrieta led the league in Wins (22 to Greinke’s 19).

Jason BMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

So Cy Young voters hated Kevin Brown in a similar fashion as HOF voters.

spreerod1538
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

I’ll say the Greinke vs Arrieta battle was interesting and think that Greinke should have probably won it. But Arrieta got a lot of points for being pretty much unhittable after the allstar break.

herbsmith
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

According to Fangraphs, Fergie Jenkins actually led the NL in pitching WAR in 1971.
1. Jenkins 9.6
2. Seaver 9.1

Jon L.Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

Yeah, but Seaver only threw 286 innings that year.

herbsmith
8 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

WAY behind Jenkins 325, it should be noted.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dooduh

FIP’s not really used for awards, and ERA since the break is 2.19. He’s got 1 bad start and he’s at 2.

Dooduh
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

But we are looking at everything to try and determine who’s had the more impressive year, and by both real results (ERA) and future forecasting based on peripherals (FIP), deGrom is ahead by 0.42 runs.

The only knock is that his team hasn’t supported him. If it’s a pitching award, should that matter? I think we know the answer to that.

spreerod1538
8 years ago
Reply to  Dooduh

It’s historic from another prospective.. or it least it has the potential to be. Right now he’s on a ridiculous streak of something like 21 straight quality starts, which was only interrupted because of a minor injury 22/23 starts ago. And they’re obviously not cheap 6 inning/3 earned quality starts, he’s going 7 innings almost every single start. He really has been unbelievable.

Stupideas22
8 years ago
Reply to  radiohead

Can somebody explain to me Nola’s strange prevalence in WAR? Not to take anything away from him, he has really been incredible. However, he isn’t top 5 in any category except W/L% (where he is actually first, to be fair,) and H/IP, where he’s 5th. He’s not even in the picture for innings or strikeouts. He’s been great, but nowhere near the best, like WAR seems to think.

zaxellMember since 2020
8 years ago

Hitters aren’t eligible for the award? I hope some troll gives some down-ballot love to Matt Davidson.

bombguy85
8 years ago

I’m very curious to know why Fangraphs WAR is so much different than Baseball Reference especially with pitchers. Kyle Freeland is 3rd among NL pitchers in BBREF WAR with 6.0. You state in the article “I think it would be a major upset if any pitcher outside of the top five presented here gets serious consideration” . If Kyle Freeland keeps it up and the Rockies manage to get into playoffs by winning the West, which they do still have a shot at and it’s really the only way in most likely for an NL West team, should he not get some consideration. The kid is in his 2nd full year and he has an overall 3.02 ERA with a 2.22 ERA at home pitching in Coors where he has held hitters to a slash line of .210/.296/.382. I can’t get ERA- on the splits tool here sadly to see what his home ERA- is

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  bombguy85

The main difference is that fWAR for pitchers is based more on FIP and bWAR is based more on the runs that were actually allowed. So, in Fangraphs model, a pitcher doesn’t get as much credit for things like posting a low BABIP or stranding runners compared to bWAR. In Freeland’s case, it looks like he’s posting a low BABIP and high LOB%, which is leading his ERA to be almost a run lower than his FIP. Fangraphs has RA9-WAR that’s similar to bWAR for pitchers, as Freeland is fourth in the NL at that measure behind Scherzer, Degrom, and Nola.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Just to be clear, Baseball Reference doesn’t include factors such BABIP or LOB% (at least not directly).

It attempts to calculate how many runs a pitcher saved relative to an average pitcher under the same circumstances (same opponents, same defense, same starter/reliever role, same ballparks).

For example, Freeland is giving up 3.02 runs per 9 innings. He’s faced teams scoring 4,50 runs, the Rockies defense is rated at -.20 runs, starting results in a bonus of .20 runs, and Freeland’s park factor is 113.8.

So…(4.50 +.20 +.20) * 1.138 = 5.57.

That 5.57 is how many runs Baseball Reference expects an average pitcher would give up, if they pitched under the same circumstances as Freeland.

Then 5.57-3.02 = 2.55 runs saved per nine innings. Freeland has pitched 146 innings so that results in 41 runs saved relative to an average pitcher. (of course, a below average pitcher would cost their team runs, not save them).

BTW, you can see this all on Freeland’s Baseball Reference Page under “Player Value – Pitching”.

Fangraphs is a FIP based model. I don’t feel like getting into the details as their easy enough to google. But it mostly looks at strikeouts, walks, home runs allowed, and park factors.

Bottom line…asking what is the difference between BR and Fangraph’s pitcher WAR is a bit like asking what’s the difference between an orange and a koala bear.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Orange and koala is a rather extreme comparison. I like to think of it more like the difference between a wallaby and a kangaroo. They’re different things, but nobody except Australians and baseball nerds can figure it out.

John DiFool2
8 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Distinctions all understood, but should the article handicap based on merit, or on how the voters will actually vote? W/L and run support are fairly well-accepted now by the voters; FIP quite a bit less so.

Lanidrac
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

I definitely prefer B-R’s version of the metric. While FIP is a better prediction tool, ERA is a better analyzer of past performance.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

I think it’s really interesting what Boston has done. They brought him back yesterday vs Baltimore. Next start is next Sunday vs Tampa. The following start is Aug 24 @ Tampa Bay. They totally have avoided him facing Cleveland. He’ll avoid starting in September if the rotation remains on track vs Houston and then only have to see 1 of Cleveland and New York in mid September.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

His career ERA against Cleveland is 4.78. And it’s been particularly bad the past couple of years: 4 starts, 18.1 innings, 10.80 ERA.

So I wonder if they’re purposely having him avoid Cleveland?

EasyenoughMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

I think Stever20’s implication is that Boston isn’t showing Cleveland Sale’s repertoire so he has an advantage in the playoffs.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  Easyenough

If so, that seems strange. Almost everyone on Cleveland has faced Sale plenty of times. And I doubt his repertoire has changed much since they last saw him.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

I think part of it is the schedule. They get one of those 5 games weeks so they get him 2 extra days rest before next start. Then after starting Sunday vs Tampa, his next start is @ Tampa Bay on Friday. Then @ White Sox on 8/30. I wonder if they feel like part of his 2nd half struggles are mental…

If he had started Saturday-
next start Sat vs Tampa
Thu vs Cleveland
8/29 Miami
9/3 @ Atlanta
9/9 Houston
9/15 Mets
9/21 @ Cleveland
9/26 Baltimore

So a much tougher remaining schedule. With their huge lead- I can see it making sense for him not to have that grind rest of the way…

gregqd
8 years ago

For voters that still care about traditional statistics, are pitcher wins more heavily weighted than ERA? I suppose that I wouldn’t have guessed this, based on the way “old school” pundits and fans talk about the game. ERA seems to be their preferred true measure of a pitcher, wrong as that is. As of now, DeGrom is really the only pitcher in both leagues who looks like he might finish his season with an ERA under 2.00. I would think that if he pulls off this feat, and if that ERA is nearly half a run better than Scherzer’s, as it is now, he would net a majority of the votes from these folks. I also wonder if win-loss record will be less heavily weighted for Scherzer with his team missing the playoffs altogether (as opposed to just getting in, with his “contributed” wins viewed as critical).

jgrub7
8 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

Historically, ERA does not seem to be the most important factor in Cy Young Award voting. There have been 113 Cy Young Awards given out since 1956, and just 38 of those pitchers (33.6%) won the ERA title that year as well. However, nearly 64% (72/113) led, or tied, the league in wins. Wins and innings pitched seem to be much more heavily weighted. A great example of this was in the 2016 CYA voting.

Name – W-L, ERA, IP, Vote Points
Scherzer – 20-7, 2.96, 228.1, 192
Lester – 19-5, 2.44, 202.2, 102
Hendricks – 16-8, 2.13, 190.0 , 85

Here the voters essentially voted by record and IP and totally disregarded Hendricks’ and Lester’s significantly better ERA.

Tony Wisconsin
8 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

20 wins seems to be the magic number – if someone hits that milestone and nobody else does, that vaults them over the competition. If that’s not the case, then ERA, strikeouts, innings pitched all seem to be weighed more.

bly
8 years ago
Reply to  jgrub7

Scherzer also had 1.2 more fWAR, 20 more IP and 284 Ks to Lester’s 197. Hendricks was 60 IP behind Scherzer.

bluerum29
8 years ago
Reply to  gregqd

Need to look at Wins and ERA. Gotta be 15+ and Under 3.00

frangipard
8 years ago

I think sabermetrics types have gone too far with the “wins mean nothing” line of thinking.

Most of the time we use stats, we’re using them for their predictive value — what do the numbers tell us about true talent level and what a player is likely to do in the future. We’re trying to strip off all the effects of context, so that we can predict what that player would do/would have done in a different context. But when you’re talking about awards that are designed to be backward-looking, I would argue that they should be based primarily on descriptive stats that are connected to actual results, and that the context matters.

If two players have identical slash lines, but A has 80 RBI while B has 120 RBI, were both were equally effective in helping their teams win? No, and especially so if the difference was due to B performing better with men on base. Those were still actual runs scored in actual games. The fact that based on their past performance A and B would be equally likely to drive in runs in a game tomorrow is valuable information going forward, but it’s irrelevant when describing what actually happened in the past.

And sure luck plays a role … but luck always plays a role, as it does in everything. Are we going to award Trout last year’s MVP because it was only bad luck he was injured? Are we going to award Judge the NL MVP because hey, he was better than Stanton and it was only bad luck he was playing in the AL?

There is a reason why we remember Bill Mazerowski’s game-winning homer in 1960, and we forget Hal Smith’s the inning before. We remember Kirk Gibson, but forget about Canseco’s grand slam in the same game. In assessing the past, context matters and results matter.

So getting to wins … they are a poor predictive stat, but they are a meaningful descriptive stat. Scherzer’s and DeGrom’s W-L records do describe an objective reality that occurred in 2018. Scherzer’s pitching has kept his team in the hunt, De Grom’s efforts have been irrelevant due to factors beyond his control. Sure De Grom is just as talented, and sure the results would have been different had the circumstances been different. So what? Are awards to be based on talent, or on what could have happened … or are they about what actually did happen?

To be clear — I’m not saying that pitcher W-L records mean everything, or even the #1 thing. But the attitude expressed in the article and in some comments that they mean nothing at all is very foolish.

Will H.
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

“Are awards to be based on talent, or on what could have happened … or are they about what actually did happen?”

One could argue that “what did happen” is that deGrom allowed fewer earned runs, or just runs, per IP, so his actual performance was better (if one determines that the greater run prevention overcomes the fewer innings pitched).

frangipard
8 years ago
Reply to  Will H.

That is indisputably true.

What I’m pointing out is that his performance was, in the end, less meaningful in terms of winning games or the pennant. He kept losing a lot of 1-0 games, and the Mets were out of the playoff race in June. Scherzer won a lot of 2-1 games, and he has been a huge part of why his team is still even in the playoff race.

IMO, in assessing their respective seasons, that difference should be factored in. Not dispositive, but not utterly devoid of consideration. (And not so much to fault DeGrom, but to praise Scherzer)

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

If we’re praising him for it, I assume it’s because Scherzer drove in the second run in all those games? That does seem worth considering. I recall an interesting Sullivan article a year or two ago about whether pitchers’ hitting should be considered in voting.

Lanidrac
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

Unlike the MVP Award, the Cy Young Award is purely an individual award, so it doesn’t really matter how much they may have ultimately helped their respective teams’ playoff chances.

Travis LMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

This argument is attacking a strawman. Your conclusion is that wins are not completely meaningless of value. The sabermetric argument is that there are much, much better ways of measuring these things than wins. Not that wins (or RBIs!) are utterly useless in all cases — just there are much better metrics, so why would you pick one that is bad compared to what’s available.

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  Travis L

No, the Saber argument is that wins are a team measure and not an individual one, and thus are meaningless when evaluating individual performance. There really isnt any way to defend wins as a useful stat to evaluate an individual unless you want to be in the Jack Morris pitch to score camp.

frangipard
8 years ago
Reply to  Travis L

From the article — ” I spent a whole day working on my Cy Young ballot in 2017 and looked at win totals for precisely zero minutes”

It’s not a straw man.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

But they do mean nothing at all.

letmegocheck
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

Scherzer has been better in every category other than a few points of ERA. Even his advances metrics are better. Are you “sabermetricians” really going to hold up flippin’ ERA as your argument? How much better is that than wins, anyway?

Dooduh
8 years ago
Reply to  letmegocheck

What category or advanced metrics are you referring to?

Famous Mortimer
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

Just look at the Bote walkoff game. How does his swing affect the performance of the pitcher who’d stopped working three innings beforehand?

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

I tend to agree with you that when handing out hardware, we need to look less at predictive stats and more towards what happened.

For example, if I’m talking about which pitcher I’d want for the next year, yeah, give me the one with a high strikeout rate. But in the end, I don’t care that Schilling got more outs via strikeout than Kevin Brown.

Where you lose me is pitcher wins. They depend SO heavily on the performance of others that it’s really hard to say anything meaningful about the pitcher just based on them.

Lanidrac
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

I agree with your general methodology (which is why ERA should matter more to voters than FIP), but pitcher wins and losses are much more random and dependent on your teammates’ performance than even most other luck and/or clutch dependent stats like RBIs. While they aren’t completely worthless, they are such an incredibly poor analyzer of an individual pitcher’s past performance that they are indeed pointless to include in a Cy Young argument. This is especially true for closers, who earn most of their wins only after blowing the save first.

Now if this were the MVP award, you might have an argument with how he and his teammates work together to win ballgames with an excellent W-L record, but the Cy Young award is supposed to exclusive measure individual pitching excellence.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

I’d be curious to see what the final numbers are. Because what the final numbers are could mean to voters a lot different thing than what the projections are.

Case in point- using the real life stats plus ZIPS projections on the site
AL Cy Young. Sale right now is 12-4 with a 1.97 ERA. Projected to add 5-2 with a 2.60 ERA in those 7 starts. That’s 17-6 with a 2.16 ERA
Bauer is 12-6 with a 2.22 ERA. Projected to add 4-3 with a 3.37 ERA in those 9 starts. That’s 16-9 with a 2.61 ERA.

The innings gap I think is the most meaningless. a 0.55 ERA lead way overcomes that.

There’s literally a 0% chance that Bauer would defeat Sale with those final numbers. Absolutely no where near the 26% chance.

rosen380
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

If the ZiPS RoS represented 100% of the possible outcomes, then sure.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  rosen380

I think Sale is pretty easy right now. If he can put together anything close to what he’s projected, he’s going to win the award.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

my problem with that though is that pretty much where he is, if he has a good rest of season, there’s pretty much nothing anyone can do to beat him. If Sale goes as projected 5-2 with a 2.60 ERA in his remaining starts- he’s 17-6 2.16. I’d say he’s probably at least 60% chance of doing that. There might be a 5-10% chance of him doing that and someone being incredible and beating that. Quite frankly if it’s close, Sale is going to win. Bauer is having a great season- but it’s not close right now to Sale. The 20 inning gap is pretty meaningless.

frangipard
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

“if he has a good rest of season”

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  frangipard

He could go 5-2 with a 3.40 ERA and still be the favorite. He right now totally controls his own destiny- if he pitches the best of anyone rest of the way- there’s no one that can beat him. No one else can say that.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Stever20: You’re absolutely correct that there’s something very screwy about the model.

If the season were to end today, Sale would win the Cy Young. There’s zero doubt about that. Only Bauer is close and it’s not that close. So when this article was posted, Sales’ chances of winning the Cy Young were 100%.

But the model only projects him to have a 29.9% chance of winning the Cy Young. And as you pointed out above, his mean projection is quite good (5-2, 2.60 ERA). There’s no doubt that it’s as good as any of the other top contenders.

So while the model looks at the 1% through 99% projections, how can it take a guy from a 100% chance down to a 29.9% chance while also giving him a mean projection that’s as good as any of the other contenders? (given that the 1-99% projections feed into the mean projection).

Here’s where I think the problem is. Though again the lack of detail makes it hard to be sure.

Dan wrote: “the award percentages that appear here aren’t based on each player’s mean final projections, but from the whole array of possibilities, 1st to 99th percentile, for each player.”

That makes it sound like the model looks at each player in isolation. If so, that’s a problem. Because what Sale does in isolation for the rest of the season is irrelevant. Sale could,for example. pitch to his 1% projection and still win the Cy Young if all the other contenders do something similar. Does the model account for that? It sounds like it doesn’t and if so then that’s a problem.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

Very well said. At this point of the season looking at the end of year projections, you absolutely have got to look at where they are currently. And right now Sale would get it and it wouldn’t be particularly close. (and that was even before todays news on Bauer going on the DL).

I will say the possible sleeper in everything is Kluber. He had a great start tonight and now is 15-6 with a 2.68 ERA. He’s shown he can have a 2 month unconscious stretch to be able to get to like 20-7 with a 2.30 ERA.

Daniel KingMember since 2016
8 years ago

I hope Bauer wins it, he’s extremely analytical and it’s been fun watching him figure things out and get better every year. The AL east bump does give voters a reason to vote for Sale though, so he’d probably get it if it’s close.

coldbagel12Member since 2018
8 years ago
Reply to  Daniel King

More so than the AL East bump is the fact that Chris Sale is widely regarded as one of the top 5 pitchers in the game over the past several years, and yet hasn’t won a Cy Young. A lot of people will want to give him one, just because they feel like he should have won one by now.

fjtorres
8 years ago

Scherzer getting a fourth Cy Young, three in a row and one in the AL, with 50+ WAR banked pretty puts him on rails for the HOF. Good shot at 200W and 3000K, too.

bly
8 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

It would be interesting if he didn’t get to 200Ws, but I agree, if he wins another CYA and to 200 it’s first ballot or second.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Again, is there some explanation of where these numbers come from, somewhere? This entire article treats ZIPS as a black box. Instead of just debating the results of an opaque oracle that spits out percentages at random, I want to know what its model of voter behavior looks like so I can tell whether I agree.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

Is this published somewhere or are we meant to just keep asking you for these little glimpses inside the black box? I keep reading these “ZIPS says” articles and seeing no account of the methodology whatsoever. What “dimensionality reduction”? How was this model arrived at? How was it validated?

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

So that’s a “no” on the model and your methods being published or subject to open inspection, then?

Famous Mortimer
8 years ago

You are sort of asking him for the exact recipe of his secret sauce.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Secret sauce is the opposite of science. But if ZIPS is a black box and the methodology is going to remain private, then just say so — it’ll be an interesting Folgers Swap for the Fangraphs audience, and we can see who actually cared that something like WAR be calculated by publicly known and empirically defensible methods, and who just likes to be sold snake oil as long as it comes dressed in stats words. (It’s genuinely fascinating to me that the culture of this comment section sees asking about methodology as a bad/hostile thing, when the entire premise of the article is “here are some percentages I arrived at via an undisclosed method.”)

Famous Mortimer
8 years ago

I don’t particularly care one way or the other, but one would assume you can choose to pay attention to ZiPS or not based on the results it’s thrown out in the past. Lots and lots of data to look at to see whether it’s a decent system or not.

It’s a proprietary system which he uses, in part, to make a living. Like certain famous recipes. Has he ever said it’s a science? Does Nate Silver release his exact methodology? (genuine question, I have no idea)

Tony Wisconsin
8 years ago

Are the algorithms powering Steamer available? I don’t know that they are, and they similarly play a big role here.

Roger, I think the negative response your comments have gotten is more the tone, rather than not sharing your interest in transparency. Suggesting someone is peddling “snake oil” with “random percentages” is unnecessarily insulting, even if your underlying point has merit (and it does).

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago
Reply to  Tony Wisconsin

If I claimed that I had a magic machine that you couldn’t see, but I’d consulted it in private and it told me Max Scherzer had precisely 54.8% odds at the Cy Young — not 54.7% and not 54.9%, but 54.8% — then I wouldn’t be insulted to hear the word “random” uttered in my vicinity. Much less would I have the chutzpah to claim offense on someone else’s behalf for that! (As to your and Mortimer’s other point, yes, there are other proprietary black-box algorithms out there. I don’t know anything at all about Steamer but I don’t see it cited as an authority in weekly columns here. If it’s going to be, then I’d think the same objection applies.)

Famous Mortimer
8 years ago

The person who invented Steamer doesn’t write for Fangraphs, whereas the person who invented ZiPS does. Is the reason you read more about one than the other here, I’d assume.

I’ll stop arguing about it now, as this has the whiff of the unresolvable about it. Your continuing to refer to it as “magic” indicates a certain feeling about it all. But I feel like a few points could be made(again, in some cases).

* ZiPS is a proprietary system. Not as complicated, but the same, as iOS or Windows. You wouldn’t expect Microsoft to give you their source code for nothing, so why do you expect the same from Dan?

* Whether it works or not can be found out very simply by looking at the data it’s produced in previous years, and comparing that to actual real-world results. If you don’t want to do that, or can’t be bothered, other sites have done it and published their findings.

* Perhaps, honestly, a publicly available metric for projections would be more suited to you. You seem more bothered about not being able to see the workings than the results it’s spitting out.

* (this is to emh1969) – Dan has talked about ZiPS dozens of times. It might even have its own Wikipedia page; if you’re interested in what data goes into it.

Roger McDowell Hot Foot
8 years ago

Please do provide a link to these alleged copious published findings about the accuracy of previous ZIPS Cy Young (or other award) predictions. Despite your vague aspersion about how I “can’t be bothered” I have, in fact, spent a reasonable amount of time searching for any substantial published information about what exactly is in this mysterious black box, and I have found very, very little information. Or why did you think I keep asking if any of this was published anywhere?

“Perhaps, honestly, a publicly available metric for projections would be more suited to you.” — Yes, and if it isn’t “more suited to you” (or anyone) too, then it’s because you don’t actually believe in scientific empiricism, you just like magicians who talk in math-speak. Publicly reviewable methodology is one of the central pillars of empirical research.

emh1969
8 years ago

See my issue is a bit different. I have no idea how good the model is. Does it predict the Cy Young winner 20% of the time? 50%? 100%?

Also, how many years of data went into developing the model? Given the change in how voters weight various factors for the CY Young, I hope the model puts a strong emphasis on recent years.

But I don’t know the answer to these questions which makes it difficult/impossible for me to evaluate the model.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago

Also would disagree that Severino’s stats right now are in Cy Young territory. Sorry but a guy with an ERA over a full run worse than a guy has no chance. And Severino’s ERA right now is at 3.11 to Sale’s 1.97. Bauer is at 2.22. Verlander would have a far better shot of getting in over Severino. Right now- Severino probably doesn’t even get an invite as a finalist…

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Dan Szymborski

You said in the article that his stats are in Cy Young territory already. I’m sorry but I totally disagree. Being 8th in ERA a full run plus behind Sale and almost a run behind Bauer is not in Cy Young Territory. Right now he wouldn’t be close to finishing in the top 5. Maybe in your ballot, but in the ballots that the MLB Writers cast- they haven’t voted for guys that are a full run behind in ERA- see 2015 with Sale in the AL.

If Severino had the same finish that he had last year he would add 5-1 with a 1.99 to his stats. 11 ER in 49.2 IP. He would finish 20-6 with a 2.84 ERA. Good season yes. But given where guys like Sale are right now- he would need a lot of regression from a lot of guys to even get in the top 3. And another part of that- he’s got to actually go out and do that 5-1 with a 1.99 ERA- considering he’s got 26 ER in his last 38.2 innings pitched- that’s a reach.

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Geez, what did the guy do to you?

“Right now he wouldn’t be close to finishing in the top 5.”

Here are the AL WAR leaders among pitchers in order.

1. Sale – Okay
2. Bauer – Okay
3. Cole – Okay, although based on his .268 BABIP, 2.93 BB/9 and 9.9% HR/FB, we could see some regression due here.
4. Verlander has +0.3 WAR on Severino, also has pitched poorly recently, and FIP and xFIP seem to indicate more regression could be coming.
5. Severino
6. Kluber has -0.6 WAR on Severino and would also appear to be due some regression according to FIP and xFIP.

It would seem AT WORST, he would be just outside the top 5?

Give Severino and Dan both a break. The purpose of the article is to handicap the field, not just to look at the obvious guys. He’s very well within the territory wherein we can reasonably discuss his candidacy, which we’ve done, and can now move on.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

The WAR is meaningless to the voters so why do you keep on quoting it? I mean how much did WAR help Sale last year?

Verlander would be no worse than 4th right now. Kluber ahead of Severino as well. Those 5 have a pretty big lead right now on Severino.- yes to include Kluber who has 1 fewer wins but a 0.37 better ERA.

Severino has to pitch better than he did last year to end the year- AND have guys who are ahead of him quite frankly collapse.

frankly the order right now would be
Sale/Bauer/Verlander/Kluber/Cole. Severino right now quite frankly would be on the fringe and probably wouldn’t get any 1st-3rd place votes.

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I think you’re exhibiting some biases for reasons unknown.

If you want to talk stats voters care about, Severino leads the league with 15 Wins. Based on that alone, he is well within the discussion.

I’ve conceded Sale and Bauer. But between he, Verlander, Cole and Kluber, I think it’s pretty close and obviously debatable (just look at the discourse we’re having!) I think Verlander and Kluber have some ERA regression coming for sure and he could finish ahead of them without much need for imagination.

You were a bit overzealous in your stating that he isn’t within the territory or close to the Top 5. That’s all.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

I think 1 win isn’t worth the ERA gap with him and Kluber. And I can’t see a 0.61 gap being overcome with Verlander. So he’s right now at best case 5th- with Cole.

If you look at the Tango Tracker, he’s a distant 7th right now….. Behind Bauer, Sale, Verlander, Kluber, Cole, Snell. He’s closer to #8 Morton than he is Snell right now.

emh1969
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Well he didn’t do himself any favors tonight.

4 innings, 4 earned runs, 1 walk, 6 Ks, 2 home runs.

ERA now up to 3.27 overall and 7.50 over his past 7 starts.

Dan notes above that he’s perceived as the Yankees undisputed ace. The problem is that he hasn’t pitched like an ace for almost two months now. Not sure how that gets you a Cy Young…

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  emh1969

yeah his 3.27 ERA is 0.05 better right now than CC Sabathia.

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Confirmation bias! You must have sensed this was coming.

If you look at the BJ Tracker, he’s fourth. Guess it just depends on where you look.

He’s had a really rocky stretch and maybe he won’t recover now. I never said he was the Cy Young, but the dismissiveness of his candidacy was objectionable.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

I was/am dismissive of his candidacy because he’s so far behind with so many guys in between him.

Also the Tango tracker is supposedly more accurate with recent seasons. But even there- looking at the BJ tracker he’s 7th- behind Sale, Bauer, Kluber, Diaz, Kimbrel, and Treinin. And he’ll be 9th tomorrow when it’s updated as Verlander and Morton will pass him. I didn’t see it before tonight and I really don’t see it after tonight.

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I misspoke in citing your biases as being unknown. I should have said “unclear”.

Bauer has 0% chance? Severino isn’t close to top 5 or even “in the territory”? Clearly you’re either a Red Sox fan or Chris Sale’s dad. You can relax though. I think most, including myself, would submit that he’s the favorite. The author even used his picture in the header!

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

Bauer really has no chance if Sale goes out and performs well. Between the lead that Sale has right now and also the narrative that Sale’s the best guy never to win one- Sale is clearly in the drivers seat- and would have to falter similarly to last year to not take home the award. So to me, the odds that Dan posted indicate that he thinks that Sale has only a 30% chance of doing well. I think that’s pretty low.

Brewtown_Kev
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

I’m not here to agree nor to disagree, but I find it funny how a commenter purports to tell a baseball writer who actually votes for the Cy Young Award how baseball writers supposedly vote for the Cy Young Award.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  Brewtown_Kev

well, I see his 2015 vote. He had in 2015 it being
Price FG#1/Vote #2
Keuchel FG#3/Vote #1
Sale FG #2/Vote #4
McHugh FG#9/Vote #8
Archer FG#5/Vote #5

So Sale way too high. Same with McHugh(who was on 4 votes- 2 of them being Houston voters). But no mention of Sonny Gray who was on 28 of the 30 votes.

I don’t think he’s telling us how the voters would vote. He’s telling us how he would vote. That’s 2 totally and complete things.

oozyalbies1
8 years ago
Reply to  stever20

Severino’s WAR is 5th among qualified pitchers in the AL. ERA is 8th. FIP and xFIP are 5th and 6th respectively, and that’s after a very tough month long stretch (Verlander is 4th and 9th in those categories respectively). K/9 and BB/9 both Top 10 in the AL, as well, in a ton of innings.

Just because he isn’t the favorite doesn’t mean he isn’t in the territory. He’s possibly a tick below Verlander, but not by much. Stats would also indicate that Verlander has more regression coming, and Severino’s might be behind him.

stever20Member since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  oozyalbies1

The problem is though that WAR/FIP/xFIP are pretty close to meaningless to the voters. Right now he’s 8th in ERA and it’s not a close 8th.

carterMember since 2020
8 years ago

Amazing the differences in WAR between the sites. Bref/ ESPN has Freeland 5th overall, at 6.1 ahead of Bauer and barely behind Sale.

I personally prefer fangraphs WAR for fantasy purposes, but bref war for voting purposes (well I don’t vote for these awards, but still) since it is based on what actually happened, rather than what was expected to happen.

Simmons2020
8 years ago

Now that it’s near universally agreed that relievers shouldn’t win the CY Young can we give them their own award? The Mariano Rivera award or something like that?

Stupideas22
8 years ago

Here’s the most impressive thing to me that I see being overlooked about DeGrom’s season. He hasn’t had a single bad start, all year. That’s absurd. His worst start was on April 10th where he went 6 innings and gave up 4 runs. He was dominant, until the 5th inning, when he gave up three ground ball singles and a two- out home run. Five shutout innings, and one inning with three ground balls, and one mistake. One mistake! That’s the worst he’s pitched all year. And while not technically a quality start, that’s still a competitive effort that gives your team a shot to win, especially factoring in today’s bullpens. No other pitcher can say that they haven’t had a single instance where they haven’t faltered, and allowed the pretense of competition to slip away. Scherzer’s been neck and neck with him in that regard, except on April 4th he allowed 5 runs in 5 innings, in a game the Nationals lost 7-1. That’s a non- competitive game. That’s a game where it gets to the 7th, and the team starts thinking about tomorrow, and the next day. But it’s only one. But that’s still one more that DeGrom, because he hasn’t had any. Which is ironic because the one pitcher who has had a perfect season in giving his team the opportunity to win every time is the one without the wins on his record.