Here Are the 25-and-Under Rankings

Recently, Kiley McDaniel and Eric Longenhagen rolled out a bunch of original content as the core of FanGraphs Prospects Week, and the highlight was probably their 2018 top-100 prospect list. Baseball America has also been rolling out its own prospect lists, and toward the end of January they published their organizational rankings, running down which teams have the most and least talent on the farm. It’s obviously important to have an idea what’s going on below the majors, because that’s where the next wave is stationed. Teams are going to need their young reinforcements. It’s hard for a team to be sustainably good if it’s thin on young, high-level talent.

I don’t have much to add to the organizational reports. All I’d like to say is this: Young players already in the majors are also important. When a prospect graduates and establishes himself in the majors, he disappears from the prospect lists, as he ought to. But that very same player is still immensely valuable, because he’s proven himself to be of major-league quality. To get to the point, I’d like to try something. Below, I’ve ranked every team in baseball, based on all their players 25 and younger. This is something of an experiment, but I’m still satisfied with the results.

The caveats should come first. This is based entirely on player projections, and projections are estimates. Projection systems don’t watch young players with their eyes, and projection systems don’t know if a player was recently playing through pain. So, this approach rewards statistical performance, and it also rewards proximity to the majors, since high-minors performance is easier to translate. Additionally, the cutoff at 25 is arbitrary. It just feels right, but 25 is no more appropriate than 24, or 26. There will be a relationship between age and service time, but this doesn’t account for individual cases. For example, it works to the Nationals’ benefit that Bryce Harper is only entering his age-25 season. For these purposes, he counts. He’s also in his final year of team control. So is Manny Machado. That’s something to keep in mind.

But let’s still move forward. I’ve calculated everything from combined Steamer and ZiPS 2018 player projections. Instead of just taking the regular projections, I’ve used the Steamer600 format, which gives position players 600 plate appearances (450 for catchers), starters 200 innings, and relievers 65 innings. I know this is far from perfect, and I know there are, say, swingmen, but all we’re trying to do is estimate, here. This should give us some pretty good ideas. I eliminated everyone 26 and older. Then I grouped all the players by team and sorted by projected WAR. Here’s a plot of every team’s combined top-ten player projections.

Focus less on actual ranking, and more on general ranking. I don’t want to convey a false sense of precision. Here’s how to read this: The top ten Astros players age 25 or younger are projected for a combined 22.9 WAR. Maybe you can think of it as WAR600. The Astros are being pushed by the Yankees, at 22.3. The Phillies are at 20.9. The average team shows up at 15.2. Turning all the way to the other end, it’s a two-team competition at the bottom. The Giants are at just 3.4, while the Mariners aren’t far ahead of them, at 4.4. I’m not telling you anything you didn’t already know; neither the Giants nor the Mariners are known for their young organizational talent. This supports what you already assumed.

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It’s a little less interesting, but I also prepared a similar plot, combining the next ten players. The one above includes the ten most valuable. This one includes the 11th through 20th most valuable.

You see several teams below replacement. That’s not a mistake — it’s hard for most young players in the minors to look like they’re major-league ready. It’s not necessarily that a below-replacement projection means a player is bad. Such a player could be very talented! But the numbers would just figure the player isn’t too close to breaking in. An organization with a loaded rookie-ball roster wouldn’t look great by this method, if that’s where the bulk of the talent is. Near-term projections aren’t wowed by clubs with prospects in the lower levels.

So, again, this rewards performance and proximity. The Yankees are in first, at 7.2, while they’re closely followed by the White Sox, at 6.5. You find the Mariners in 29th, and you find the Giants in 27th. They just — they’re not young and good. The Nationals are the club bringing up the rear. Their entire system, including the majors, has just ten players with above-replacement-level 2018 projections. The best projection, of course, belongs to Harper, who’s probably eight months away from leaving. Trying times might be ahead.

I didn’t prepare a plot for this, but if you combine the top ten and the next ten — for a top 20 — then the Yankees show up in first place, at 29.5 WAR. They have an advantage of about 3 WAR over the Astros and Phillies. The Giants are in last, at 1.3, and the Mariners are in basically last, at 1.4. The Angels, I should note, are being saved here by Shohei Ohtani, who accounts for almost all the positive value by himself. The Angels are in third-to-last. This helps to explain why Ohtani was such a crucial acquisition. Without him, the Angels would have hardly any young talent at all. But he can singlehandedly keep them out of the basement, by this method. Neither the Mariners nor the Giants have anyone who could compete with that kind of ability.

It’s kind of funny — the Mariners’ best 25-and-under projection belongs to Mike Ford, at 1.0 WAR. Ford was a Rule 5 selection who they plucked from the Yankees. The Yankees had no roster room for the Mariners’ best statistical 25-and-under player. The Yankees have 11 25-and-under players who project better than Ford does. At the top of the list are Luis Severino, Gary Sanchez, and Jordan Montgomery. This doesn’t even give the Yankees credit for Aaron Judge, who’s 25 today, but who turns 26 in a couple of months. When people tell you the Yankees are loaded, they don’t just mean they can run some high payrolls. The Yankees are great in the majors and the minors, having turned back into a juggernaut.

If your favorite team looks good here, congratulations. Every organization wants to hoard young talent. If your favorite team doesn’t look good, well, maybe you don’t like what the projections have to say. Maybe you have more faith in your team’s player development. Maybe there are players 26 or 27 or 28 on the roster, with years remaining of club control. It’s not as if this is some unassailable reading of the future. But, you know, you’d rather look good than look bad. The Yankees look good. The Giants look bad. There are very legitimate reasons for that.





Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.

36 Comments
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TimeToMakeTheDonuts
8 years ago

I am happy about one thing. My sons will be able to relate to my hatred of the Yankees and their embarrassment of riches.

reynolds352Member since 2020
8 years ago

All is right in the universe.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago

It would be interesting to break it down as WAR by years of team control.

There are some valuable pre-arbitration 26 and 27 year old players out there who are controlled talent who fall outside this scope, but their teams still have a lot of value to get from them going forward.

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

The problem, of course, is that you either 1. exclude players like Kevin Kiermaier who are on long-term contracts, or; 2. include Albert Pujols and his 3 remaining years of team control.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  LHPSU

Nah I’d want to look at just talent by service time. 0 to 5.000 or so.

Judge, Chris Taylor, Austin Barnes are important low service time assets

BlueCollar
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

This is very much the Mariner’s situation, it will be interesting to see how that works out going forward.

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
8 years ago

Good stuff! What also would be cool would some ordinal rankings of each team’s top-10 players, 25 or under. Not just a straight WAR projection, but informed by scouting rankings as well. I think Baseball Prospectus used to do something similar.

buckb-2Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

When I saw the headline, this is exactly what I was hoping to see here…and I seem to remember Eric/Kiley teasing something along these lines?

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

BP still does this, and already has for every team for 2018.

drewcorbMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  mikejunt

Do you have a link? I see their organizational prospect rankings, but I’m pretty sure those are based only on the minor league systems. And they take an in depth look at each team’s system which examines their Under-25 players, but I can’t find a ranking for each team’s Under-25 players.

buckb-2Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  drewcorb

It’s at the bottom of each team’s Top 10 Prospects article (subscription required). It’s a nice feature…

Glevin
8 years ago

Very interesting stuff
A few points/requests
1) Isn’t 10 players a lot? I mean, if a team has five 3 WAR players who are under 25 isn’t that much more impressive than 10 players who are all 1.5 WAR? I’d take three 5 WAR players under 25 over either of those two. Having a couple of 1 WAR relievers or backup infielders who are under 25 seems pretty minor to the long-term health of an organization. The Dodgers are sort of middle of the pack but they have Bellinger and Seager. I would rather have two elite young hitters over the under-25 talent that many of the teams in front of them have.
2) I’d love to see this pitching/hitting WAR divided. Just trust hitters so much more to build around.
3) I’d also love to see this combined with prospects somehow to give a system an overall grade.
4) Also, as I’ve seen suggested, combining with team control because what good is Bryce Harper’s youth if you have him for one more year?

Six Ten
8 years ago
Reply to  Glevin

But aren’t all those players useful? Sure, you can’t play 10 guys at once, but you can trade 2-3 of them for a valuable player from somewhere else. They’re probably a bit less valuable because you still have to do that work, but not much.

And when you factor in things like holes being exposed, injuries, projections not all working out, depth gives you a lot more predictability. Sure, Seager and Bellinger put you ahead of the curve as long as they’re out there every day. But if one of them goes down you plunge, while if one of your ten 1.5 WAR guys goes down you are basically in the same position you already were.

That’s not to say ten 1.5s are more valuable than three 5s, just that the shape of the value is different and it’s hard to declare one over the other.

CC AFCMember since 2016
8 years ago

Oooofff the left coast

Ari
8 years ago

Of course, if the list was 26 and under it would have Mike Trout on it. The idea that the Angels “have hardly any young talent at all” outside of Ohtani kind of ignores the earlier statement about the arbitrariness of the chosen endpoint.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
8 years ago
Reply to  Ari

On the other hand, I think when people talk about “young talent” they are thinking of players that will maybe improve (and also do it for cheap). Trout is unlikely to improve (he is somehow still “cheap” in a certain value-based sense). Trout (and Harper and Machado) don’t feel like “young talent” either, at least not to me.

outfield_acrobat
8 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

I agree, it’s hard to think of Trout, Machado, Harper as young talent despite their ages, as they have 5-6 seasons under their belts. I don’t think that was the spirit of the article.

rosen380
8 years ago
Reply to  Ari

Of course you are free to collate your under 26 or under 24 or whatever data and share it… I’m sure it’d be really interesting.

bananas
8 years ago

This doesn’t even give the Yankees credit for Aaron Judge

Oh, goddammit. /tableflip.

JudgeStantonDongCounter2018
8 years ago
Reply to  bananas

don’t worry, it also doesn’t take away from them that aging overpaid albatross Giancarlo Stanton either!

Ryan DCMember since 2016
8 years ago

The Nats desperately need some of their talent in the lower minors to develop well this season, because the upper minors are barren outside their top couple guys and the major league team is aging fast. Of course if Victor Robles turns into Andrew McCutchen and Erick Fedde turns into Jordan Zimmermann (the good version) then the situation is a little less desperate.

Brock244
8 years ago

Sanchez, Judge, Severino, Bird, Torres, Frazier

Betts, Benintendi, Devers, Bogaerts, Chavis, Rodriguez..

Kind of crazy how stacked both teams are with young talent. Age of big markets having a bigger advantage over smaller markets?

fjtorres
8 years ago
Reply to  Brock244

These days their management is as savvy as the best small market teams.
And, they have more money to paper over their mistakes.
So they can take bigger risks.

DBA455
8 years ago

This is absolutely fantastic.

Johnny Dickshot
8 years ago

Good article, thanks

kseg22
8 years ago

Atlanta is definitely a team to watch as I did not anticipate their top 10 ranking quite this high (especially w/o Freeman being part of it). Would be curious to see one extra dive into the next best 10 for each team to truly see organizational depth. I would bet Atlanta is sitting pretty in that regard too.

HandsomeBoyModel
8 years ago

Looks like the Giants clubhouse is full of Facebook users.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

The Giants clubhouse probably has a lot of people who could tell you about Myspace.

They probably also go around quoting Napoleon Dynamite.

Stevil
8 years ago

It is odd that Mike Ford projects higher than any other 25 or under player on the Mariners roster because he isn’t even a lock to make the team. I hope he does, and rakes, but I think Edwin Diaz represents a higher value to the Mariners in that age bracket.

J
8 years ago

Great work man!

Itwould be fascinating to see the variance between these rankings at (essentially) 6 month intervals from season to season. There are so many injuries, trades and breakouts

Of course thats a lot of work that I’ not willing to sign up to do….

Also, this seems to offer a glimmer of optimism for Rays fans after the interesting week they just had.

Cubslol
8 years ago

Hahaha. Where is all that young Cubs talent we all kept hearing about? Didnt take long for that team to become old and broken.

outfield_acrobat
8 years ago

I like this idea a lot. The team most fascinating to me here are the Rays, as all you hear about is how they’re dumping youngish players (I look forward to the day Oakland and Tampa resolve their stadium situation and can actually afford to pay their players) to save money, but they really have done a fantastic job replenishing the farm system while working within their own limited parameters.

mr. N
8 years ago

i’m pretty interested to see how the SFG’s experiment works out

winnetkatwinsMember since 2020
8 years ago

How are the Cubs in the bottom half? Contreras, Schwarber, Happ, Almora and Baez, must have used the simpleton Steamer mean reversion projections.

goyo70
8 years ago

I think an observation some of the astute Mariner fans have made is that Dipoto has targeted players who could be called “old prospects” (which, I realize makes them non-prospects to some, but does describe Haniger, Gamel, Marco Gonzalez, Nick Rumbelow, Pazos). Also, the vast majority of the Mariners team is between 25 and 30 years old, which makes the arbitrary cut-off point of 25 less meaningful. For the Mariners, a better question to ask is how many players are under 30, how much variance is there in the age of the players, are the players any good?; and how much team control does the club have on these slightly older players? I think this list, like the farm system assessment of the Mariners, tells some part of the story, but misses a big part of what the Mariners have been trying to do to extract value.

outfield_acrobat
8 years ago
Reply to  goyo70

I don’t think the point of the article was that this team or that team is good or bad based on these rankings, but more to do with future stability, though I could be misinterpreting. There’s more than one way to win a World Series, as evidenced by the veteren lineups of the 1997 Marlins, 2001 Diamondbacks, and you could probably even throw the 2013 Red Sox in that group. Young talent gets everyone excited for good reason, but sometimes those middle talent older players are equally valuable in winning championships.

LordOfTexasMember since 2019
8 years ago

I like this a lot. Maybe “Top Pre-Arb Players+Prospects” would work too. You’d still get the newly graduated prospects but you wouldn’t pull in the 25 year olds who hit the majors really early and only have a few years of team control left.