How the Pirates Are Forced to Value Players

As a small-market club, the Pirates have a limited margin for error to be competitive.
(Photo: Keith Allison)

If you’ve read any of the dozens of articles over the years trying to create a framework for player asset values (putting a dollar amount on a player’s value), you’re aware of the biggest weakness of this genre of article. Take a star player, run him through a marginal-value analysis, and you’ll be disappointed in what it says about his trade value. Before we jump into the Gerrit Cole and Andrew McCutchen trades, follow me down a thought-experiment rabbit hole.

Clayton Kershaw is the best pitcher in baseball and Steamer projects him as a six-win player next year. Using the roughly $9-10 million at which a win is currently valued on the open market, Kershaw is likely to produce something between $50 and $60 million of value next year; let’s call it $55 million. Would multiple teams bid that amount for his services on a one year deal? Probably yes, because there’s some surplus value at that salary for which the formula fails to account. It doesn’t consider, for example, either extreme payrolls (i.e. the Dodgers’ on one hand, the A’s on the other) or more critical spots on the win curve (moving an 87-win team to a 93-win team is worth far more revenue-wise than 65 to 71).

So what would the A’s bid? They had an $86 million payroll last year, and they obviously wouldn’t give nearly two-thirds of it to one player. Oakland’s value for Kershaw would likely be whatever the maximum is that they would pay for any player, but that number is much lower than what the Dodgers would spend, maybe $20 million. Granted, these are extreme cases, but it illustrates the limitations of using a one-size-fits-all dollar-per-win calculator in specific instances, even if it works fine in aggregate.

More Granular Valuation

I point all that out to illustrate the fact that players aren’t worth the same to every team. Kershaw’s value, on which we all basically agree, varies by $30-40 million from the A’s to the Dodgers on just a one-year deal. So wouldn’t it follow that the A’s and Dodgers would value other players differently, too?

The Dodgers spent $265 million on players last year for 25 roster spots; that’s $10.6 million per player. The A’s spent $86 million, or $3.4 million per player. If the A’s want an everyday, league-average left fielder and think free agency is the best way to acquire such a player, they’d be forced to spend something like $8-12 million per year — essentially three of those $3.4 million allotments — to do it. For the Dodgers, such a signing would only require the use of one such allotment.

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With this in mind, it’s probably reasonable to say that a league-minimum, league-average rookie left fielder is worth more to the A’s than the Dodgers for a few reasons. The roughly $10 million in savings from the free-market alternative to the rookie is almost 12% of the A’s payroll. It’s less than 4% of the Dodgers payroll, however. The Dodgers can still essentially afford any player before or after signing the free agent, but the A’s now can get a couple extra market-priced role players or another average starter, instead of minor-league-deal types whom they’d be forced to use without this rookie.

The further implication with the rookie left fielder is that he offers five additional cost-controlled years after this original one, compounding that one-year edge. For a team in the midst of a short-term rebuild (maybe not looking to compete this season, but targeting the next one or one after that), those upper-minors prospects — or, similarly, MLB players with just a year or two of service — who profile as a 50 or 55 FV type are more valuable to a low-payroll team than a high-payroll one.

The Pirates at 30,000 Feet

The Pirates spent just under $110 million in payroll last year, 25th in the league, not far ahead of 29th-place Oakland. The Pirates were projected for roughly 81 wins before the Cole trade, a clear third in the NL Central and essentially tied with three other teams a few games behind Arizona for the second Wild Card. Arizona looks poised to make a move to contend this year and the Giants looked poised to make moves, so before this trade, the Pirates needed to improve by six to eight wins for a reasonable shot at contention.

With projected arbitration raises, the Pirates (before trading Cole) were committed to about $103 million for 2018, leaving roughly $7 million to spend. You can see how the numbers don’t add up here. Unless they were going to mortgage the farm system, it would have been impossible to spend just $110 million and make this team a contender, unless a lot of things feel their way in-season, which it would be foolish to expect.

The industry belief until these trades occurred was that the Pirates were trying to sell off their short-term assets (contracts that end in 2018 or 2019) so they could reload. This would mean trading Cole and McCutchen primarily, possibly Josh Harrison and a few others. The Pirates would add some assets via these trades, clear some payroll space, and make way for upper-level prospects (OF Austin Meadows, RHP Mitch Keller, SS Kevin Newman, and maybe a few others) to get their feet wet. Depending on how well that process goes, you could see another window open in 2019 or 2020 with a core the team could afford for multiple years. If you assume the payroll isn’t going up and there’s no moral hazard to sacrifice everything to win now, this is the smartest long-term plan.

How This Applies to the Cole and McCutchen Trades

The reaction to the Cole trade hasn’t been that positive for the Pirates. That’s mostly because certain top prospects Pittsburgh asked for — Gleyber Torres of the Yankees, Kyle Tucker of the Astros — weren’t in the final deals for Cole and McCutchen. As I suggested in my last article, this ultimately isn’t surprising: in an era when nearly all teams value young players “correctly,” if not overvalue them, landing a top prospect often isn’t an option.

As a consequence, lower-payroll teams are forced to, in deals like this, focus on a long-term asset or assets with a good chance to appreciate in value. Felipe Rivero’s value has gone up since the Pirates acquired him, so this doesn’t just mean prospects. Building on the earlier example of the minimum-salary starter’s value to the low-payroll team, it compounds due to the multiple years of control and again if that club can get multiple starting-caliber players at once, particularly if they are young enough to improve and turn into difference makers.

This strategy isn’t unique to the Pirates, of course — not even in their own division. The Reds, for example, weren’t contending last year and had high waiver-wire preference along with roster spots to give players a chance. As a result, they stumbled into Adam Duvall, Scooter Gennett, Scott Schebler, and Eugenio Suarez. All four have become useful pieces, even as competing teams were unable to give all those guys a chance to develop.

The Brewers, meanwhile, have been good at stockpiling one- to two-win players either by acquiring them when they’re undervalued or by helping them turn into an asset. When the big-league team isn’t a contender, agents/players find an organization more attractive for minor-league deals since the talent gap between depth pieces and starters is smaller. If a core player hasn’t had a payday before, the club has a chance to double down on his success story with an extension, like Rivero just did with the Pirates (who can now comfortably allow him to rack up saves with no arb hearings coming). There are a lot of little edges to exploit beyond draft position for a club that isn’t contending.

If a club follows that strategy along, it’ll end up where the Cardinals did, with a glut of low-end starting-caliber players (or solid, not spectacular prospects) whom they can package together to get a well above-average player (like Marcell Ozuna) to supplement their core when they see a competitive window opening. If the Pirates execute their plan and the players they acquire appreciate in value, those newcomers will be contributors to a playoff team. Or the plan may fall short but if enough player improve, these now-proven big leaguers can be flipped in a cascade of trades (liked the Braves did with Jason Heyward), to improve the chances of opening a window a year or two later.

The latter isn’t an ideal outcome for the Pirates, but it allows them to be flexible and act when the window opens, rather than dictating it has to happen in a certain year, like what the Giants are doing now. Organizations need margin for error in terms of timing when they lack margin for error in payroll.

The Players

Eno already examined what Cole can do to regain his old form (a point on which others agree) and why the Astros are more likely to help him achieve that goal than the Pirates. Jeff covered the McCutchen trade and the current hierarchy of the NL. I’ve compared notes (see below) with Eric Longenhagen on the prospects the Pirates received (RF Jason Martin, 3B Colin Moran, LF Bryan Reynolds and RHP Kyle Crick) while KATOH also weighed in on the trades.

Martin (40 FV) is a classic fourth-outfielder prospect, a lefty-hitting tweener who can play all three positions but fits best on a corner and has a chance for a 50 bat with 50 game power and solid-average plate discipline after a swing adjustment between in 2016 to lift the ball more. He’ll likely spend 2018 in Double- and Triple-A (which is a reason why he wasn’t taken in the Rule 5 draft), so a 2019 role as a platoon outfielder could be in the cards, with six years of control starting when he’s called up.

Moran (50 FV) was the sixth-overall pick in 2013. He hasn’t quite lived up to the pedigree but worked himself into a solid player with improvements last season. He made a swing change in 2017, lifting the ball more and getting more athletic in his swing, along with quieting his hands, which allowed him to handle premium velocity better — a big issue for him until the adjustment. He projects as a 50 or 55 bat with 50 game power. Moran has below-average range but above-average hands and arm, so he’s around average at third base, even if he isn’t super athletic. He’s also played some first base. He’s big-league ready with very little service time, so that’s six years of a potential starter, including two or three of those years at the league minimum.

Michael Feliz (45 FV) has four years of control remaining and has been a quality middle-relief option who could be more of a setup man if it turns out getting hit around last year was more bad luck or fixable flaw rather than fatal flaw. He works 95-97, touching 99 with good extension, a solid-average slider that he buries well, average command, and a below-average changeup that he largely ditched last year. His fastball is pretty straight, so possibly switching to a sinker (an en vogue move in Pittsburgh) could solve some of those issues.

Joe Musgrove (55 FV) has been a roughly league-average/No. 4 starter for his 25 big-league starts and projects to be that or a little better going forward. He works 91-95 with a sinker that touches 98 mph with plus life, he gets great plane from his high arm slot and backs it up with an above-average slider and changeup, along with average command. There’s nothing plus here except Musgrove’s control; he pounds the zone, is durable at 6-foot-5, 265 pounds, and can be a cost-effective third or fourth starter starter for his five remaining years of control. There’s also some feel for his craft, as there’s plus control and some scouts think he throws a four-seam fastball, sinker, cutter, slider, curveball, and changeup, though it’s likely different versions of three main pitches.

McCutchen (60 FV) didn’t change an enormous amount from 2015 to 2017, despite wild swings in his WAR. He’s lost some explosion and athleticism, as you would expect at age 31, and there was a well-publicized positioning issue that torpedoed his defensive metrics in 2016, along with some nagging injuries. In 2017, McCutchen fixed the positioning issue and made more contact at the plate, putting up a line that better reflects his true talent level than 2016. He’s not that MVP-level monster of old, but he’s still very useful to a contender.

Crick (40 FV) went 49th overall in 2011 and has had maddening command issues from day one, with the Giants finally moving him to the bullpen in 2017. He’s pared down a four-pitch arsenal to just a four-seam fastball and slider, but he has 40 command of these pitches. He works 94-97, touching 98 mph, and his slider is above average to plus, but his heater is straight and he has trouble throwing the slider for a strike. He was unsustainably lucky in a big-league debut and, like Feliz, seems like a good candidate for a sinker and/or different general approach, something with which the Pirates have had some success in the past, possibly with an eye to turning Crick into another Matt Albers.

The switch-hitting Reynolds (45 FV) still has the same questions on him as he did coming out of Vanderbilt: can he chase fewer sliders off the plate and can he shed the tweener label to profile as an everyday player? He projects for average game power (from slightly above-average raw power) and has a fine ability to select pitches, but there’s some stiffness that limits his ability to make contact outside the zone, particularly on good offspeed stuff, while he has no trouble hitting fastballs and mistakes. Call it fringy to average offense overall and he’s lost a step since college to where he’s now an average runner/defender with a 40 arm that only plays in left field. That offense is more fourth-outfielder-level output, but maybe a subtle mental/mechanical adjustment and the current baseball gets him to solid-average offense? Either way, it’s somewhere on the platoon/fourth-outfielder to low-end regular spectrum.

So Who Won the Trades?!

With the McCutchen trade, you’re dealing one year of a three-win/60 FV outfielder at a $12.5 million (the Pirates tossed $2 million in the deal), so the value traded isn’t enormous; rather, it’s enough to get a solid potential everyday prospect, which is what Pittsburgh got in Reynolds. Crick is more of a toss-in with upside who needs a change of scenery to see if he can make adjustments, which is the kind of guy who fits the Pirates aforementioned plan more than Crick fits their preferred type of player per se. I’m not nuts about those two players, but McCutchen’s name recognition far outstrips his actual trade value at this point.

With Cole, the Pirates traded two reduced-price years of guy who was an ace in 2015, a No. 2 starter in an injury-shortened 2016 and No. 3 starter in 2017. I think he’ll improve next year, so that’s a real asset to a contending team of any market size. You can choose to focus more on the 11 cost-controlled years of projected starters plus a useful reliever or the two cost-controlled years of a 65 FV/four-win-type starting pitcher, but both teams executed their plans, which are sound for their situations.

I’ve been asked a number of questions about two facets of the Cole trade. First: did the Pirates get enough/should they have gotten a bigger-name young player? Second: is this an example of a progressive team taking quantity over quality that I referenced in my last article? The answer is we don’t know yet, but probably not. I know the Pirates value their top prospects maybe as much as any other team, so the reports of targeting Gleyber Torres/Miguel Andujar/Clint Frazier from the Yankees or Forrest Whitley/Kyle Tucker from the Astros passes the smell test.

That said, we don’t know if Pittsburgh took this trade over a one-for-one deal for Tucker, for example. I would assume Torres, Tucker, and Whitley weren’t even on the table to be discussed, and I wouldn’t take Frazier alone over this package (it sounds like the Pirates agreed), while I think Andujar alone is worth about the same as this package (but it sounds like he wasn’t on the table, either). Maybe the best answer was to wait until the trade deadline and see if other, more desperate bidders emerged, but it’s impossible to know that and there’s at least a 50% chance that Cole’s value would go down in the interim (injury, regression, or just trading half-a-season less of him), drawing even less in return.

It seems like the Pirates tried to keep this window pried open as long as they could, then once they got a feel for the market of their best assets, they took what was available so they could move forward to creating the next window.





Kiley McDaniel has worked as an executive and scout, most recently for the Atlanta Braves, also for the New York Yankees, Baltimore Orioles and Pittsburgh Pirates. He's written for ESPN, Fox Sports and Baseball Prospectus. Follow him on twitter.

105 Comments
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JG007
8 years ago

This is probably the best article i’ve read on the recent deals. Thanks for the insight, Kiley.

One underrated thing about the Pirates is that right now, they only have about $30 million committed to players next year.

Marte, Polanco, Cervelli, Rivero, and Nova are the only guaranteed values. Kontos and Feliz will be in arbitration. I bet Kontos is nontendered and Feliz wont be expensive.

*Every single other player* is either pre-arb or is a not-great player with a team option.

This is a pretty good core with reinforcements coming and.. what… $70 million that it can throw at the team next year?

This rebuild does not have to be long or painful. They could be quite good in 2019.

JG007
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

I’ll daydream about Machado, but dang it, i’d be satisfied with Yasmani Grandal.

jsdspudMember since 2018
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

I don’t doubt your logic, the problem is that they never seem to spend any money. They will bid on a few free agents, then once they are outbid state that they tried.

JG007
8 years ago
Reply to  jsdspud

they spent 100 million for like 3 straight years.

Lou BrownMember since 2017
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

Filling 25 roster spots for $100mil is not “spending” in the way you are defining it.

JG007
8 years ago
Reply to  Lou Brown

i don’t follow

david k
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

Meaning $100 mil doesn’t go as far as it used to. The Pirates were still only 25th in the league in payroll, so if you are going to be that far down, you need to have quite a few players that achieve excess value vs their contracts.

JG007
8 years ago
Reply to  david k

that’s exactly my point. They have like 70 million dollars free that only needs to fund like 10 percent of their 2019 roster.

They’re only committed to like 40 million on the 90 pct of a roster that’s already going to be there in 2019.

Rainja182
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

What they are trying to say is that you are assuming that any money saved on the current team, will subsequently be used to fuel future teams. If the past is any indication, I wouldn’t bet on this being the case. They will continue to run low end payrolls regardless of money saved until they have a new owner.

JG007
8 years ago
Reply to  Rainja182

that’s not what i’m saying at all.

If I was saying that, i would be saying “70 million spent in 2018… means theyre saving 30 million… which means they could spend 130 million in 2019”

that’s not what i’m saying at all.

i’m saying “go ahead, Nutting. pocket 30 million this year in 2018. but as long as you go back to being close to 100 next year in 2019… which youve done in the past… then they should be really good!”

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

Except they won’t be very good. They’re a roster filled with “not bad” players. But almost no one is good. You don’t win that way.

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  jsdspud

This was supposed to be the end-game after their years of building, but a lot of things went wrong. McCutchen’s decline, Cole’s inconsistency, Glasnow/Taillon injuries/development stalls, Marte PED suspension, Kang DONE, Polanco hasn’t turned corner yet, etc, etc.

To their credit, they haven’t completely punted and started over; they’re just re-juggling their ML assets towards guys with more year of control, otherwise they would just target Class-A studs.

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

They’ve run into a string of bad luck, but that ignores the good luck they had in the 2013-2015 window. They neglected Latin America, didn’t touch Cuba, didn’t make any sort of trade that was even a pseudo “go for it” trade. While they were ahead of the game on shifts, they’re woefully behind in power, both in pitching and hitting. It’s like Huntington ran out of ideas, and keeps going back to what got him a brief window of success.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  NastyNate82

its important to consider how even in say, 2013, you could have a cutting-edge analytics team with just a few guys, and now you have the Yankees and Dodgers employing 40-50 person R&D Departments. Its likely that Huntington no longer has the resources to stay ahead of the curve because that area has become so competitive in fairly recent history.

In 2013 the Dodgers had just been purchased by the new ownership group and hadn’t even put their own leadership in place.

mikejuntMember
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

Why it is it surprising that the peak ended up being ages 26-28 for their superstar cornerstone?

dcweber99
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

Lifelong Pirates fan here. Thanks for the laugh. Bob Nutting’s only interest is lining his pocket.

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  JG007

What evidence in ownership’s past do you have that they will spend that money. Of those “guaranteed” values, the only two among them who are decent players are Rivero and Marte. Their farm system has taken a significant step back, as this organization has shown they’ve had a big issue translating big prospects to productive regulars. I ain’t optimistic…this was a crap return.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

One of the interesting things about the Brewers during the Doug Melvin years was that they tended to target riskier, higher-upside players since they figured they could never get them any other way. I generally think that is also a sound approach, perhaps even a better approach than targeting players with limited ceilings.

The other thing that I wonder about the Pirates is their confidence in their player development program. The Giants and Cardinals (and a few other teams…the Rays?) seem like they can manufacture 1-2 win players out of nowhere. If you can reliably do that, it is a major asset because you don’t have to worry about grabbing high-floor-low-ceiling assets in the same way.

david k
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I agree that you are probably not going to win a WS with a roster full of “low ceiling” guys. You probably need to have a few stars in the mix, and unless you just end up drafting them with your own picks, the only other way for a small market team to get such players is thru trades. When you increase the number of high ceiling players in your organization, the more likelihood that one or more pan out to be stars. Once you have enough of those, THEN you fill in the gaps with more affordable, decent players that you can afford thru free agency.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
8 years ago

I think Cole is going the benefit greatly from not having McCutchen in CF anymore. Hopefully the Giants are targeting another CF, because I hate seeing Cutch losing value out there year after year.

John W.
8 years ago

great post

John W.
8 years ago

Oh, and superb title.

Carson CistulliMember
8 years ago
Reply to  John W.

I see you, John W.

madfencerMember since 2017
8 years ago

I’m a total Cistulli fan, but I don’t understand this exchange and the up votes. Anybody care to let me in on the joke?

FunFella13Member since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  madfencer

listen to the last Cistulli \ Cameron podcast

Alan
8 years ago

While there are reasons the As won’t pay Kershaw, I don’t think the reasoning used is sound. It is a convenient excuse to say “we can’t pay anyone 30 million”, the fact is the biggest bargains in the game in terms of $/WAR are pre-Arb players and superstars. Mike Trout is a bargain, and so is a $35 million Kershaw. Small market teams need to be willing to vary their payrolls year to year and to invest in a superstar or two if they can. If their superstar gets hurt, they can sell their shortest term assets. If things go well, they can likely add veteran position players at the trade deadline for very little. This is a flexible strategy.

A lineup of 2 win players is unlikely to be that cheap for long, and is almost impossible to improve via trade. You also cannot trade such players for very much. This is a self-weighting strategy – rain or shine, the talent you put on the field each year is the about the same. As a smaller payroll team, this is not good news.

I do not doubt that the author knows far better than I do how such teams make decisions or think about these issues. I do, however, think that if this is how these teams do operate, and their goal is to reach the playoffs as often as possible, then they are making a ghastly strategic error.

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Alan

This is probably not an ever-continuing strategy by low-budget teams; rather it’s a part of a cycle. Towards the end of the cycle, ideally if they have accumulated enough cost-controlled talent, limited the number of holes on the roster, and developed a couple of homegrown stars, they can splurge a little in free agency for 1 or 2 guys. If they were a 90-win team right now, they wouldn’t move Cole and McCutchen.

And I don’t think their strategy is to “make the playoffs as often as possible,” I think it’s to “win a championship as often as possible,” which shifts your construct significantly.

Alan
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

Yes, if you aspire to a championship and not the playoffs, superstars are even more important – deadline adds are cheaper, and Bumgarner and others have carried teams in some postseasons.

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Alan

And how do low-budget teams get their superstars? Usually by choosing talent very high in the draft, which means not going for the playoffs every season…

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

Or trading for high-ceiling prospects.

Which they would have to do since the Pirates are trying to smooth out the cycle and not bottom out entirely.

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

So why would they trade for high-risk, high-ceiling prospects if they’re not trying to completely tank? They weren’t getting top 20-30 prospects for Cole/McCutchen, it looks like they tried with Houston and NYY.

Is a highly flawed-highly talented guy like Clint Frazier really that much more appealing than the 3 player combo they got?

Personally, yeah, I might have waited until the trade deadline to move Cole, because of supply-demand economics, but for an off-season deal, this is pretty solid.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

They would trade for high-risk, high-ceiling prospects if you want to have more than just an army of 2-WAR players. That’s pretty necessary to be a top-shelf contender, as Alan points out…you have to get the top-flight players somehow.

If you don’t tank and you don’t trade for high-ceiling prospects and you can’t sign big names in free agency, to get top-level players you need a scouting department better than everyone else to get stars near the middle or bottom of round 1 (or later), or you just don’t get them at all.

And if you have the best scouting department out there, then you really don’t need to worry about much else.

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Why do Cole and McCutchen have to net their superstars? They’re not top-tier blue chip trade assets. They have a lot of young talent in or on the cusp of the majors: Glasnow, Taillon, Bell, Polanco, Marte, Keller. They have high-end young players in the organization already, and they chose to supplement them with immediate major league production. They haven’t eschewed high-end minor league talent as a general.

In the particular trade, given the choice between lottery tickets in the low minors or immediate major league talent for Cole/McCutchen, they chose the latter.

I understand the philosophy of what you are trying to say, but sometimes you have to look at the actual particulars of a trade. For what it’s worth, DepthCharts has Musgrove at 2.7 WAR next year, Cole at 2.6 WAR. They got back a lot of major league value in the deal.

Also, who’s to say there’s no upside with Musgrove, Moran, or Feliz? They were all highly-rated prospects at one point in their career.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

If you can come up with a way that a team picking in the late teens, that generally spreads around its international bonus money instead of going for a few big names, that prefers to acquire high-floor/low-ceiling types in trades, and that won’t or can’t afford to give out big contracts in free agency is going to get stars, I’d be glad to hear it.

Right now, the only ways seem to be 1) counting on Austin Meadows, Cole Tucker, and Josh Bell to turn into those players or 2) figuring you have a better scouting department than everyone else so you can grab those people in the draft/international market. I’m guessing it is #1 but either way it’s not a strategy I would endorse.

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

As the article stated, once you have a glut of those 2 WAR players, you can trade them for a young 4-5 WAR player. Plus there is value in not having any holes.

I’d also like to see data on the number of super prospects who turn into superstars vs the numberbof fringy 40-50 FV prospects that do.

If the difference isn’t huge, don’t be seduced by rankings. Take the Donaldsons over the Delmon Youngs if you can.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
8 years ago

The issue is that only teams *like* the Pirates are willing to trade a 4 win player for two established 2.5 win players…because everyone else can go *buy* a 2 win player in FA.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

You’re gonna need to trade a lot of of those 2 WAR players to net a young 4-5 WAR player. Here are the position players projected for the 4-5 WAR range next year by Depth Charts:
Anthony Rizzo
Nolan Arenado
Jose Ramirez
George Springer
Anthony Rendon
Paul Goldschmidt
Buster Posey
Joey Votto
Jose Altuve
Justin Turner
(Others of interest, just below the cutoff: Freddie Freeman, Christian Yelich, Trea Turner, Gary Sanchez, Alex Bregman, and about 3-4 other names right about 4.0).

Maybe throw out Altuve since he is literally coming off an MVP season. First you have to ask how many teams are willing to sell a player of that caliber. Certainly no one who wants to contend that year, especially since they are likely to contend because they have that guy. If it’s a team that thinks they will be good in 2-3 years, they won’t want to sell pre-arb guys either. So you have to find a player with only a couple of years left and/or where the team is in the process of tearing down, and luck into having them. And then you have to outbid other teams, who can offer things other than an army of 2 WAR players.

All of this is to say, 2 WAR players can be plenty valuable but are relatively fungible commodities.

There are probably more prospects in the 40-50 FV range who turn into superstars than in the FV55-70 range. This is, however, because there are probably 20+ times the number of FV40-50s than those in the FV55-70 range.

There is something to be said about stockpiling an army of FV40s-50s except for the problem that you need to give them all regular playing time in the minors. If you can’t actually develop them all then it’s not worth it.

BillClinton
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

They won’t be picking in the late teens this year or next year.

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

If they’re not going to net the Whitleys or the Tuckers, I don’t think settling for meh guys like Musgrove is the right play at all either. In that case, they need to mine further. Find high beta guys who haven’t broken out yet who have some pretty good size tools. Guys like Dermis Garcia on the Yankees, to name one.

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

Except Huntington has said numerous times they want to “make the playoffs as often as possible.” He often said that when they found some reason to not make some sort of big move either in the offseason or at the deadline. The myth of the endless window of contention.

Jross
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

Except teams like the Rays and Pirates don’t splurge.

baubo
8 years ago
Reply to  Alan

> and so is a $35 million Kershaw

The reason this isn’t the case is because you need at least 15 or so quality players in total (8 position starters, 5 pitching starters, 2 relievers, and this is really bare minimum). And everyone cost some amount of money. Let’s say the As have a payroll of $100mil and they give Kershaw $35mil and Trout $35mil, both of which are bargains. But that’s $30mil left on 13 other key players and rest of the roster minimum guys(which takes up $4-5mil), or around $2mil per starting level player. That means they can’t even re-sign some 5th/6th year arb players and will have to rely on many pre-arb players to fill out not just their bench spots but even starters. That likely means replacement level players in several spots that could’ve been filled with 2-3 win players for just a modicum of extra salary.

There’s a baseline amount of salary that every team must spend just to not be those 50-win Astros teams. And that amount is basically not much less than how these lower salaried teams operate today. Therefore any of that salary devoted to a superstar on $30-50mil contract means they’re eating into their bare minimum spending elsewhere to not have terrible guys.

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  baubo

The FA market has been incredibly inefficient. Not a ton of bargains to be had there historically, especially for expensive players.

Which superstar is signing with a team that invests 35-40 percent of its budget with him, in lieu of a team that is investing 15-20 percent?

And which superstar is taking a 1 year deal for significantly less than the value of his production?

In fact, wouldn’t it better for the Pirates to sign a huge FA for 1 year with Musgrove, Feliz, and Moran also offering ML value at the same time, rather than non-elite prospects ?

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago

“Getting a starting caliber-ish 3B and even 2 quality relievers for multiple years of pre-arbitration control is valuable to a team with a small budget and the Pirates haven’t completely punted themselves from lucking into a wild-card spot.”

Wrote this on Sawchik’s post about the trade..

Mike NMN
8 years ago

Nice piece. Well thought-out and well presented. It does sort of lead you to the question of whether there’s a better economic system out there that would allow the Pirates to acquire and retain “better” established players than they are forced to accept now. Maybe that’s somewhat higher revenue sharing or some other pooling concept. Pirates are not going to be Dodgers/Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs spenders–but a little more flexibility should help.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
8 years ago

Are the pirates maybe betting on Being a 500 team for several years so they have a chance to sneak into the second wc once or twice?

I don’t think the return is bad by surplus value and depth is very important but how does depth help them to beat the cubs or cards? Those teams have depth and several 4+ war players which the pirates don’t have anymore.

Of course theu couldn’t have competed but shouldn’t they have tanked completely and go for just upside rather than getting a couple old prospects?

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

Exactly. While Kiley seems to lay out that value wise, it’s not bad, that’s not ultimately the point here. The point is to build a contender, and you do that with stars. Not by “winning” a trade in terms of value.

ThomServo
8 years ago
Reply to  Dominikk85

Guys like Jose Ramirez, Justin Turner and Charlie Morton did not seem like high-variance upside players before they broke out.

The Pirates don’t have a fail-safe way to simply get 12 wins better to catch the Cubs. The FA market doesn’t provide anything close. Guys like Stanton would veto a trade to Pittsburgh. If they are going to catch the Cubs- it will likely be roughly in this manner, as Milwaukee nearly managed to do last year.

In order to turn 1 WAR into 5 WAR a few times over, the Pirates may have to turn someone with value into a return with greater upside. Betting that Cole and McCutchen are more name than surplus value makes sense at the moment- the disputed issue seems to be the upside of the return.

Perhaps the concept of upside has changed with the Flyball/statcast/K era since mid-2016. The traditional concept of high upside (toolsy A baller with good scouting rank) hay have less significance for the Pirates that the more subtle ‘next Altuve’ upside.

Trading Cole & McCutchen, the Pirates picked up 3 arms with Ks and an ability to limit HRs, plus 3 fairly rounded position players with average or better bat-to-ball skills. I’m wondering if Crick and Felix might still get consideration as SP, which may suggest an upside interest, or similarly whether these position players will focus (more than most) on launch angle, etc. A 4th SP, an average 3B, 2 relievers, and 2 platoon/4th OF types can’t likely be what the Pirates are hoping for here, as they can get some of that off waivers/Rule 5/cheaper trades: much more interesting deals if the play is to focus on MLB development, and with Searage et al, the Pirates might feel that MLB level development is their competitive advantage.

Shalesh
8 years ago

I think detractors of the trades are skeptical that Musgrove is FV55, Moran is FV50, and Reynolds is FV45. Musgrove as a Top 35 prospect was FV55 in mid- to late-2016, but is he still FV55? Kiley and Eric would know better than me, but I thought FV55 stopped around the Top 30-ish prospects and then FV50 started at ~35 through ~125. For example, all of Fowler, Mateo, and Kaprelian in the Sonny Gray deal are FV50. Colin Moran is equivalent to those 3? I don’t think so.

I know Pirates fans wanted Heliot Ramos, the Giants’ #3 prospect for McCutchen whose surplus value warrants a FV45 prospect. Maybe Reynolds is nearer the Majors than Heliot, but is Ramos a FV50 and thus off-limits?

I suppose this post argues that getting high-floor, close-to-the-majors prospects has merit. I personally prefer the higher-ceiling prospects that the A’s got in the Sonny Gray deal and Fowler and Mateo are ML-ready now.

gorillakilla34
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

Honestly, I would say that Moran is around similar value to Fowler or Kaprielian. When you take into account injuries, proximity to MLB, 2017 performance, position, etc. But I’d personally consider Mateo much more valuable.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

The future value scale is based off of expected WAR.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/scouting-explained-the-20-80-scouting-scale/

The key here is that Kiley is valuing Musgrove as a #3/#4 starting pitcher, hence the FV55. If Musgrove is a good setup guy or a #4 starter, then he’s an FV50; if he’s a #5 starter of okay setup guy, he’s an FV45 (I have some questions whether a good setup guy is really the same level as a #4 starter, but that’s for another day).

I think there is a case to be made that if Musgrove is going to be a #3/#4 pitcher, he’s more likely to do it in Pittsburgh than most other places. I also think there’s a case to be made that he’s not likely to reach that ceiling anywhere. I can’t decide which one I agree with more, but either way I wouldn’t like to be having that uncertainty if I were the Pirates and this was the most valuable piece I was getting back.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

Also, there is a case to be made that Heliot Ramos is the Giants’ #1 prospect. He’s definitely the highest ceiling prospect, but he also is 18 and hasn’t played above rookie ball.

Factoring risk level into the FV system is something that I think some evaluators do differently, but the Giants also might want to hang onto him because if he pans out, he’ll hit the majors a little before they start to ascend again.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

I agree here on targets.

Teams like the Pirates, A’s, Royals, Rays, etc… can’t afford stars and ultra high upside in free agency, so they have to find them elsewhere. That means looking for it in trades and drafting (and on the international front).

For instance with Cole, the Pirates could trade for either the higher floor return that they got or go for a high ceiling-low floor type (in a vacuum that is).

Yeah, the payoff on those high floor guys is usually much better, and being a cost controlled 1-2 win player is nice. I think though I’d rather go for the risk on the possible 3-4-5 win guys even if the probability of hitting it is lower than the probability of the 1-2 win guys being worth 1-2 wins.

1-2 wins are much easier to pick up on the FA market than 3-4-5 wins.

Slacker GeorgeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Low revenue teams don’t want to go into the red for any season, as they’d rather collect steady revenue and wait for that sweet franchise inflation sale. It seemingly runs counter to rational thinking, but would teams operate this way if the asset increased in value 1-2% per year rather than the astronomical increases in the past 30?

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

I think the Pirates should have waited until the trade deadline to move Cole, that’s my major quibble with the transaction. For an off-season deal, it’s a fair haul, but teams are way more apt to overpay at the deadline.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

A problem with waiting for the trade deadline is that it’s a pretty big bet on Cole’s continued health (and, to some degree, performance) in 2018.
Cole’s 2017 season is logically also the more valuable of the two by standard surplus value math, because his expected arb salary is higher in 2018.

So, yes, there’s a scenario where Cole is as good (or better) than expected this year, and he therefore nets a better trade deadline return due to his performance and robust trade deadline supply/demand dynamics for sellers. The really big health downside, though, is that Cole’s trade value goes close to zero if he needs TJ surgery during the first half of this season.

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

Yeah, you bring up a lot of good points, and given the return, it was not a bad time to pull the trigger. I personally like Musgrove a lot and could see him becoming at least a valuable multi-inning reliever and Moran has bloodlines (B.J Surhoff’s nephew), pedigree (former top-10 pick), and recent performance improvement in triple A.

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

I dunno, I think Cole is better than Sonny Gray and with 1/2 year more of Gray, the A’s got a lot more. That’s kind of how I’m looking at that right now.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  NastyNate82

I agree that the the return for Cole was light, but the deadline premium was probably at least as important as the extra half year. And while Cole was a league ace for a season, Gray was pitching like a boss and Cole is coming off his worst season.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

The issue here is your assumption that the label “50 FV” is some sort of absolute descriptor, rather than an approximation that serves as a jumping off point for a more in-depth evaluation.

Moran is a very good bet to be a league average 3B – say, for example, the 2015-2017 versions of Chase Headley or Yangervis Solarte. He shouldnt bust compeletely…but he’s also not likely to be better than Todd Frazier or Martin Prado (with mediocre defense), even in a very good outcome.

Fowler could be the next Lorenzo Cain…or the catastrophic knee injury that occurred a month prior to the trade could sap his athleticism, and leave him a shell of his former self.

Kap could turn into DeGrom…but his current trajectory also looks pretty similar to Christian Garcia’s.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Mateo turns out to be the second coming of Reyes…or if he ends up looking more like the bad version of Jean Segura.

martyvan90Member since 2026
8 years ago

Wow a Chris Garcia comp. I’m impressed and actually it might be a really good one.

Joey Butts
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

I checked this site’s top-100 prospects from last year. The top 72 prospects are all 55 FV.

CromulentMember since 2017
8 years ago

It’s not really the point of the article, but isn’t it fair to question why the Pirates are capped at $110 million?

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to  Cromulent

Oh you can question all you like, but the answer has been known for years and its initials are BN.

Member since 2016
8 years ago

Pretty sure the Pirates had a low payroll before Nutting became the owner.

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to 

Nutting’s dad was part of the previous ownership group.

Member since 2016
8 years ago

The ownership group before that ran very low payrolls, too. Or have we already forgotten about Bonds, Drabek, Bonilla etc?

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2024
8 years ago
Reply to 

and your point? The could spend more, but this group doesnt. Teams in similar market sizes spend more, you dont have to look beyond their division at STL.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

The Pirates look like they have the revenue to push payroll higher, but St. Louis is an outlier comparison that generates high revenue relative to what we’d expect from its metro area. Part of that is the Cardinals drawing so well in a big baseball city. Part of it, though, is also the Cardinals having a big regional fanbase that’s tied not just to a generally successful franchise history but also to the historical accident of becoming a “regional” franchise due to location. Pittsburgh, by contrast, is a bit boxed in regionally due to the presence of Cleveland to the west (with a football rivalry between the two cities) and Philadelphia to the east.

Going by Forbes estimates for 2016 revenue, the Pirates were basically midway between the A’s and Cardinals at $50 million above the A’s and $45 million below the Cardinals, in a season where neither the Cardinals nor Pirates made the playoffs. That put the Pirates at 19th in MLB revenue, which suggests that the Pirates should be able to run payrolls higher than 25th in the league, but not at the same level as the Cardinals.

kevo8Member since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave T

That’s very generous of you towards the Browns to consider Pittsburgh and Cleveland football rivals

TKDCMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Cromulent

This was my first thought, too. The article is great, and the depth is awesome, but I still found myself thinking that if a team were really on the cusp of contending given its desired budget, for the most part they do have the choice of extending it out and taking that risk. Sure, if it fails, perhaps you end up losing money as the owner of the team, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2024
8 years ago

Nice article Kiley and the logical side of me has been thinking this way all fall, but it still doesn’t change the pain of closing the book on this team that came so close to doing big things. The optics of the trades wont play well with any fanbase, but is even particularly poor locally. Starting a retool in the super team era is even more daunting and one can’t help but feel that WC contender might be the ceiling. The team is going to take a big hit in revenue sans Cutch and that will further decrease payroll (as Coonelly once infamously said ‘come and we will build it’. Even though the trades are the right thing to do, its a dark day for the Buccos.

Alan
8 years ago

This is sad but true. Cannot help but think losing specifically Cutch will hurt ticket sales, which is why he needed to be traded for someone with star potential even if it was risky or it meant pairing him with Cole, and that keeping him also made sense.

A lot went wrong to get here – Liriano, Kang, Marte, Polanco and Cole were all aligned to make for a strong team through the McCutchen/Cole control years – exactly how a team should be built. I thought the Pirates were doing a great job.

Every one of these guys started out strong but fell off badly, and it was clear this winter that they were outclassed by multiple teams.

Before these two trades, they had basically a full lineup of just ok players with zero trade value, so I never expected they would do anything other than hope to find their next star to build around with the McCutchen/Cole trade(s).

Slacker GeorgeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Alan

The Pirates dismal record in developing infielders overwhelms the wrongs you point out. That more than bad luck has put the Pirates in this place.

NastyNate82
8 years ago

They can’t even tank the right way…

forum199Member since 2025
8 years ago

This was a perfect storm of a trade for both sides. The players in this deal have the benefit of potentially gaining significant value in time, but only if they get to actually occupy a roster spot and play (the Pirates’ haul, that is).

The Astros did not really have the roster spots to invest in these players’ values going up and had incentive to consolidate their major-league ready talent into fewer roster spots, even if it meant giving up more value by the book than they would have to via minor league prospects (i.e.: Colin Moran has little actual on-field value to them)

In essence, the Pirates acted upon this by (1) having the necessary player that effectively consolidates the Astros’ talent on-hand and (2) the roster spots to invest in the exchanged players so that they can actually realize the benefit if they do increase in value later on.

That’s why I think this was just a great baseball trade executed by two high-level thinking front offices that valued things according to their own personal situation, not a universal standard.

NastyNate82
8 years ago
Reply to  forum199

As a Pirates fan, I don’t think that way at all. It seems like one of those video game deals where you keep adding players, hoping the computer accepts the deal. The Pirates needed to aim higher.

WoundedSprinterMember since 2018
8 years ago

Back to that Kershaw for the As thing. (Which, despite heading this thought experiment, isn’t really relevant, and understandably wasn’t really discussed.)
If it’s a one-year commitment, it rather depends upon how much salary the As have in the bank, how much the owners want to win big, and, as you say, where the team is on the win curve.
Let’s take the last one first (because it doesn’t reflect reality right now, but is important in a thought experiment). Let’s say the As are an 87 win team, as constituted, in the AL-W. That’s within about four games of a practically guaranteed WC spot. If Kershaw can take them over that hump, he’s worth an awful lot of money. (Including intangibles like merchandising and future TV contracts and so on.)
By “salary in the bank,” I mean “money we didn’t spend last year or the year before.” I have no idea whether this applies to the As, but in principle it applies to any small market team. If you saved $10 million last year on salary, you can use that $10 million this year for a one year contract.
As to whether an arbitrary set of owners would spend the money? That’s a different question.
But in theory, and given the massive positive that a Kershaw gives you if you do reach the post-season, it isn’t actually ridiculous to stump up $40 million for a single year of his services, provided you are on the right part of the W/L curve where WAR (or whatever measure you like) is multiplied upwards rather than downwards.
In practise, this is never going to happen.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

“including intangibles like merchandising”

MLB licensing revenue is shared equally among all teams through the league’s central fund, so a player doesn’t have that much merchandising value to his team. Teams presumably get the retail mark-up on something like jerseys sold at the stadium, based on whatever stadium deal they have on concessions, but we can’t just look at star player jerseys sold in big numbers and assume that it’s a boon for that player’s team.

And part of the reason why I think that these sorts of contracts for in their prime superstars don’t happen in practice is that teams get a lot of their revenue value from championships and playoff appearances in future years (ticket sales, etc.), and that’s somewhat diminished if they don’t have “face of the championship” players around to market in future years. The Marlins appeared to screw that up especially badly after the 1997 World Series when they promptly traded away most of the big names from that team.

Individual players of course also prefer the security of long-term contracts with guaranteed dollar amounts, but I think that there are sound business/marketing reasons that teams have accommodated that desire rather than throwing massive AAV’s at superstars for 1 or 2 year contracts.

The GuruMember since 2026
8 years ago

What was Coles Surplus Value, vs the Surplus Value of all the prospects combined they got in the trade?

Shalesh
8 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

Assuming Cole puts up 3 & 2.5 wins for the next 2 years (Steamer has him at only 2.6 for next year) and makes $6M & $12M, then he has something like $32M surplus value. A 55 Arm = $22M, 50 Bat = $20M, 45 Arm = $13M, so total package = $55M. Huge win for Pirates!

If you think Musgrove is now only 50FV and Moran 45FV, then you get $14M + $11M + $13M = $38M. This is why I think Kiley & Eric like Pittsburgh’s return better than the industry does. (Although the industry should view it as a fair deal rather than a huge Astros’ win.)

Here’s Dave Cameron’s article on prospect value:
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/valuing-the-2017-top-100-prospects/

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

Comparing value in this way is totally subjective. Just the opposite of what analytics is supposed to do. I look at this totally differently. Musgrove earned a 0.1 bWAR last year and Feliz was an abominable -0.5 bWAR. Moran has been seen, throughout the industry, as a post-prospect bust. He may have turned it around but a 45FV seems a stretch and, even if he has, he is no more than a second division player. Martin is even less highly valued. If you goal is to go 66-96 then I guess this is the type of deal you make but filling a roster with 40-50 FV players isn’t my idea of the way to go and there doesn’t appear to be a single high ceiling player coming to the Pirates in these two trades.

The GuruMember since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Just an FYI, throwing it out there…..There are many many scouts that are my friends (10+) out there who think Colin Moran is better than Alex Bregman at 3rd. Moran was 6th overall pick and was 1-1 candidate, has much more power than Bregman and better arm etc. Time will tell, but the astros never gave him a fare shake imo like they did bregman crowned from him day 1. I’ve seen both and I think Moran is an all star. Just my .02 cents.

evo34Member since 2023
8 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

Moran is 25, has barely sniffed the majors, and had shown very little power until last season, even including college. He will likely be nothing more than a platoon player, even on the Pirates.

Bregman is 23 and has a career line of 279/342/476 in 840 MLB PA.

ThomServo
8 years ago
Reply to  evo34

A decent bunch of the best 3Bs and 2Bs had relatively late breakouts:

Jose Altuve (24)
Josh Donaldson (27)
Jose Ramirez (24)
Daniel Murphy (28)
Justin Turner (29)

Those 5 hadn’t accumulated much WAR in the majors prior to 24, and most lacked pedigree and obvious upside indicators as well.

Others like Brian Dozier (26), Todd Frazier (27) and Matt Carpenter (27) pushed on from mediocre careers in their young and mid 20s to being well above average.

The GuruMember since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  Shalesh

Thanks Shalesh!

martyvan90Member since 2026
8 years ago
Reply to  The Guru

Good question and why I don’t think Pirates good value. To my eye comparing Katoh to projected WAR is flawed because of greater risk for prospects. Potentially reward is greater but from a value perspective the MLB player has a greater value floor.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago

Of possible interest:

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/josh-harrison-suggests-pirates-trade-him-if-team-does-not-expect-to-contend.html

It will be interesting to see if they continue this strategy with Harrison.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The Pirates are trying to outMarlin the Marlins. These tank jobs are getting embarassing. I still can’t believe how little the Pirates received in return for Cole and McCutcheon.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

With similar comments from people about Ozuna – or seemingly any time that a star player is traded – and some baseball writers (not at this site) throwing around prospective Machado trade packages that look absurdly favorable to the Orioles, maybe the answer is that you need think through the surplus value framework of players with only 1 or 2 years of team control remaining.

Dave Cameron made this exact point a bit over three years ago – https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-perception-and-the-market-of-star-player-trade-value/ – and suggested one factor is a systematic bias toward fans undervaluing 6 years of team control of league average-ish players (with half of those years at league minimum salaries).

LHPSU
8 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I still can’t believe there are still people who can’t spell “McCutchen” properly.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
8 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I don’t think the Pirates are like the Marlins at all here.

The Marlins had a strategy that is relatively conventional (shedding money, getting high-ceiling prospects with great tools), but most agree they are bad at it.

The Pirates had a strategy that is rather unconventional (getting close to the majors talent, few standout tools, but they get the job done), but they execute that strategy well.

Both are worth critiquing but the reasons for why they should be critiqued are very different.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
8 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

What good is it filling a roster with players who have few standout tools? Do these players really “get the job done”? If fielding a team that might win 81 games is the goal of management in Pittsburgh then these deals might make some sense, but if I were a Pirates fan I would be very discouraged by these deals?

jimcalMember since 2017
8 years ago

Kiley, how much does departure of Cutch means for Austin Meadow?

robertobeersMember since 2020
8 years ago

Trading pre-season also allows the Giants to offer McCutchen a qualifying offer. So they also get the extra value of that pick when he’s signed.

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
8 years ago

When my grandparents are at antique stores, my grandma will say something like “ooo, I have one of those, it’s worth $200.” My grandpa will then say “only if someone pays you that much.”

We can talk about small market teams getting high upside top 10 prospects all day, but it seems that teams are no longer willing to spend that.

Look at what the Rays got for Price. Several 1-3 WAR high floor players.

Situations like the Sale trade are unique because 1. Dombrowsky and 2. Moncada was essentially blocked by Devers and the glut of other quality youth BOS has. I don’t think that’s the norm.

So if you aren’t getting a top 25 overall prospect, what do you do? I think you either do what PIT/TB has done or you do what ATL has done and hoard as many prospects with upside but considerable risk as possible.

I personally prefer the former because it (theoretically) smooths your win curve.

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago

Sale was also something of a perfect storm for netting a huge trade return because at the time Sale had three years left at very team-friendly salaries (3 / $38 million total) due to an early career extension. Price only had one and a half years of control left, and the second year was at a final year arb salary that turned out to be about $20 million.

I agree, though, that some of the other high-revenue team front offices (Dodgers, Yankees) would be less likely to do that deal than Dombrowski, however the surplus value math adds up. I think those other teams see value in really highly-rated prospects that’s not that much different than lower-revenue teams. They’re very tough for those teams to find and develop, because they almost never pick at the top of the draft, and the hard caps in the new amateur IFA pool system makes it that much tougher. Cost-controlled star-level talents (Seager, Bellinger, Judge, Severino) are a big part of how those teams project to be very good while also being able to get below the luxury tax line for 2018 to re-set penalties.

It appears that the Dodgers front office in particular recognizes that filling in with mid-level, league average-ish free agents means that the misses are disappointments at their revenue/payroll levels but not full-on albatross contracts. That’s not just due to lower AAV’s but also due to shorter contract length.

bmarkham
8 years ago

Thanks for this. I have been beating this drum the last few days. Everyone is so quick to understand that limited positions means eventually you have to consolidate to create value, but those cheap average players are a huge boon to teams like Pirates. And “too much depth” isn’t exactly a big problem for them at the moment. There’s way too much uncertainly in baseball to assume a team will have too much depth in the future (especially if the team in question doesn’t currently have that problem). I also don’t think we have a good enough idea yet of what makes for a high or low ceiling or floor, so I don’t think it should be a large part of the decision-making process.

If and when the Pirates (or Rays or Marlins, who have made similar moves and been skewered for them in the past) experience the horror of too much depth, they can be on the other side of the Ozuna/McCutchen/Cole types of deals. For now it’s not an issue, so they took what they saw as the best deals available in terms of Surplus Value.

BillClinton
8 years ago
FlyDed
8 years ago

I would buy into the strategy of supplementing a core of long term 1 & 2 WAR players with meaningful free agents when the competitive window is open… except that is not what the Pirates did in ’13’ thru ’15. They passed on the opportunity to fill relatively few holes (1B & RF) on a good team with the excuse that they didn’t want to mortgage the farm in the long run. Yet, last year’s injuries and absences in the majors exposed the Pirates farm as not being very good in the first place. I contend that the recent sell-off to re-stock the farm is in fact confirmation that the Pirates have mismanaged their approach completely, or more likely – are really not committed to winning unless they luck into it on the cheap with a roster full of 1 & 2 WAR players.

Paul22
8 years ago

With 50 million to spend from the Bam Tek deal I think the Pirates could have went for it rather than wave the white flag. The incentives to win just dont seem to be there

Dave TMember since 2025
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul22

I suggest some reading on personal finance (and corporate finance) concepts if you’re in the habit of thinking that one-time gains from the sale of long-term assets should rapidly be spent on short-term operating expenses. If one goes by personal finance rules of thumb, something like 4% of principal amount of a portfolio can be spent each year (with the goal of increasing spending in-line with inflation and leaving a minimal chance of running out of money within 25 years).

For a sports team, you could get a bit more aggressive with the idea that higher payroll spending also can drive increased revenue from a more competitive team. Or maybe the better approach is to spend money on capital expenditures like stadium upgrades or refurbishments with the idea that some of that increased revenue will go into payroll. Broadly speaking, however, you’re talking about a one-time gain that translates into recurring single-season spending power on the order of a single-digit number of millions. It’s probably higher than the $2 million implied by personal finance rules of thumb, but we’re still talking about something like ~$5 million of recurring annual spending power.

obsessivegiantscompulsive
8 years ago

Great article! First time I’ve seen the nitty-gritty details about the realities of a small payroll team vs a large payroll team, and illustrates the difficulties for the smaller team when the large team is pushing the average salaries way beyond the capabilities of the small team. I’ve been thinking about this since the Yankees signed Giambi away from the A’s, but never saw anything to capture that until now.

About Crick, I’m disappointed that we are losing him, but you have to give to get. One aspect about him that wasn’t captured in this fine article is that he’s among the elite in spin rates. BP had him in a list of AFL pitchers a while back: https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/22362/measuring-pitching-with-trackman-the-secrets-of-fastball-spin/ And Crick was #1 in the majors in spin rate for his slider in 2017, albeit, SSS. Overall, his xwOBA was .269 in 2017, vs. actual wOBA of .274, suggesting that he could even be better, having some bad luck with some of his batted balls. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=&hfAB=&hfBBT=&hfPR=&hfZ=&stadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfGT=R%7C&hfC=&hfSea=2017%7C&hfSit=&player_type=pitcher&hfOuts=&opponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=&game_date_lt=&player_lookup%5B%5D=605195&team=&position=&hfRO=&home_road=&hfFlag=&metric_1=&hfInn=&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&group_by=name&sort_col=xwoba&player_event_sort=h_launch_speed&sort_order=desc&min_abs=0#results

Given the acknowledgement today that good relievers are very valuable (something the Giants were denigrated for signing their Core Four relievers of Affeldt, Casilla, Romo, and Lopez to what was considered wasteful contracts for fungible relievers), I view the loss of Crick to be more than that of losing Reynolds. That’s probably related to the fact he was already in the majors, but also because I can see the value of having a great reliever on the team. The Rivera example here illustrates that as well. And as the saying goes, you can’t teach the velocity that Crick brings, but people focus too much on his walk rate when they should either be focuses on his K/BB ratio or his K%-BB%, and they are not that bad. It is something a guy with less than one year in the majors can definitely build upon.

pdunes
8 years ago

The issue as I see it isn’t that this is how the Pirates are forced to value players, it’s how the Pirates need to value players because the ownership has decided it needs a certain level of profitability each year. From an fan’s view, it seems like the Pirates are sort of willing to try to win, but not at the expense of $xx million in profit.

Maybe the Pirates don’t feel they need a total tear down, but you’re going to earn the derision of your fans if you’re selling off your best players in exchange for cheap mediocre to league average players (if everything works out) as the return.

realtalk
8 years ago

Martin has always been underrated. With the Pirates he will have the opportunity to showcase his talent. Scouts, bloggers, will write a different story, soon.

steveospeak
8 years ago

I’m just shocked there wasn’t more of a bullish market for Cole. As mentioned in the article this guy has been between a #1-#3 starter and should reasonably be projected as a number #2 starter for these next two years. In that time he’ll get maybe $20M in arb. that is a steal vs the FA market, as Cole is arguably better than any of them, not to mention younger, cheaper and in his prime.

With so many teams looking to save money for next year or reset their luxury tax, Cole would seem to have even extra value.