How Well Do Our Playoff Odds Work?
It’s the time of year when folks doubt the playoff odds. With the St. Louis Cardinals going from 71-69 long-shots to postseason clinchers, and the rollercoaster that is the American League Wild Card race, you’ve probably heard the skeptics’ refrains. “You had the Jays at 5%, and now you have them at 50%. Why did you hate them so much?” Or, hey, this tongue-in-cheek interview response that mainly makes me happy Adam Wainwright reads our site:
Adam Wainwright: “FanGraphs had us at like a negative 400 percent chance to make the playoffs, and we just proved everyone wrong. We're going to try to and keep doing that.”
— Zach Silver (@zachsilver) September 29, 2021
In that generic statement’s defense, it really does feel that way. In your head, 5% rounds to impossible. When the odds say “impossible” and then the season progresses to a point where outcomes are far less certain, what other impression can you take away than “these odds were wrong”?
I feel the same way from time to time. Just this year, the Cardinals and Blue Jays have been written off and then exploded back into contention. St. Louis bottomed out at 1.3% odds to make the playoffs – in August! It’s not quite negative 400 percent, but it sure feels that way. Can it really be that those odds were accurate, and that we just witnessed a one-in-100 event?
To investigate this question, I did what I often do when I don’t know where to turn: I bothered Sean Dolinar. More specifically, I got a copy of our playoff odds on every day since 2014, the first year when we calculated them using our current method. I left out 2021, as we don’t have a full season of data to use yet, but that still left me with a robust (some would say too robust) amount of data.
Let’s get the headline out of the way first: our odds work! Here’s a graph where I placed each team’s projection on each day of the 2014-20 seasons in groups of .05, then checked how frequently those teams made the playoffs. The x axis is the average odds our projection system gave each bucket — teams with between a 20% and 25% chance of making the playoffs, for example, had an average projection of 22.4%. The y axis is how frequently those teams made the playoffs at year’s end — 22% for that same bucket. Without further ado:

That’s pretty neat. The general pattern conforms to what you’d expect if the system were an unbiased estimator. Teams with low odds of making the playoffs rarely do. Teams with high odds almost always do. Cut it down to every one percent bucket for added granularity (but smaller samples), and the pattern remains:

If you hunt for it, you can find some soft spots. We seem to under-forecast teams in the 5-15% odds range, over-forecast teams in the middle of the pack, and under-forecast the very best teams. It’s marginal, though; we think that low bucket should have a 10% chance of making the playoffs, and they check in at 14%. Meanwhile, the middle of the distribution (35%-65%) “should” make the playoffs half the time, but they check in at 46%.
Can you tell the difference between a 10% and 14% chance? I certainly can’t. Meanwhile, the overall shape of the distribution makes sense. That said, I wanted to get slightly deeper than “our odds generally conform to reality.” First things first: I took our season-to-date odds model and calculated all the same values. For our purposes, that’s a “naive” model — it absolutely believes what has happened in the season so far. You can get more naive, as well — I also ran the numbers on our coin flip mode, which makes each game a toss-up.
I compared the three models based on mean absolute error. For those who haven’t used it, it’s a measure of model accuracy. It’s particularly useful in binary models, because it does a good job of punishing models that don’t make specific predictions. Take a hypothetical model that’s trying to make the same predictions that we are — whether or not a team will make the playoffs. From 2014-20, 76 teams made the playoffs — 10 per year for six years, and 16 in the manic 2020 season. That works out to 36.2% of all seasons — if you give every team a 36.2% chance of making the playoffs, you’ll be “right” all the time — and means that 36.2% of the teams you gave a 36.2% chance to reach the playoffs will do just that.
Obviously, your model would be awful. But in a superficial sense, it’s perfect. When it spits out a prediction of 36.2%, it means it exactly; 36.2% of teams in that bucket will make the postseason. Mean absolute error penalizes this model on a relative basis. At the start of this year, for example, we gave the Dodgers a 98.4% chance of making the playoffs and the Orioles a 0.0% chance. That’s an average error of 0.8 percentage points, as compared to the silly model’s average 50 percentage point error.
Why tell you this? Because we can use mean absolute error to check our model’s relative strong and weak points. Across the entire data set, it has an MAE of 0.223. The season-to-date odds, meanwhile, have an MAE of 0.245. In other words, the FanGraphs projection model does a better job of predicting the playoffs than looking at a team’s record and remaining games. Coin flip odds had an MAE of 0.275. In a general sense, that should give you an idea of a minimum bound for projections.
We can slice it up further. Odds don’t work the same in May and September. In May, a team’s future play is of utmost importance. In September, math takes over. Six back with nine games left to play? It doesn’t take a great model to tell you that’s a hard mountain to scale. Let’s see how our three ways of projecting the season do as time changes.
I broke up each of the three models by month, then looked at the mean average errors in each month. For this section, as well as the above overall numbers, I also removed data points where a team had mathematically clinched either making the postseason or missing it. If a team has an undecided fate, our model opining on it is useful data. After the outcome is determined, we shouldn’t give models credit for knowing that outcome. Here’s that data:
| Month | FG Projection | Season-to-Date | Coin Flip |
|---|---|---|---|
| March/April | 0.289 | 0.334 | 0.412 |
| May | 0.258 | 0.291 | 0.338 |
| June | 0.222 | 0.244 | 0.265 |
| July | 0.212 | 0.222 | 0.233 |
| August | 0.186 | 0.197 | 0.203 |
| Sep/Oct | 0.121 | 0.130 | 0.131 |
This shape makes a ton of sense. Early in the season, projections have a commanding information advantage. They know who is on each team (season-to-date mode uses last year’s stats as an input early in the year) and how good they’ve been in their career. As the season wears on, season-to-date mode gets more information about the current team, and team records start to matter. Down 15 games in late June? Both models are going to give you slim odds of making the playoffs.
I ran a few other tests, but nothing changed the overall conclusions I’d already reached. The projection-based model does better than the season-to-date model, and both beat guessing. The errors decrease over time. Distributionally, there’s no section with a clear bias.
Naturally, that left me looking for fun oddities. The team with the lowest playoff odds to cash in? That’d be the 2015 Texas Rangers, who we clocked as low as 0.5% early in the year. They were 57-57 on August 14, five games back in the AL West, before peeling off a 31-17 run to clip the Astros in a weak division.
Spare a thought, too, for the 2018 Oakland A’s, who we pegged at 2.9% after a 5-10 start. They, too, went on quite a streak; 36-36 in June 18, they went 37-13 in their next 50 games. By then, we had them at 77% to make the playoffs, but we certainly had a low estimation of their strength starting out. Given how many players they retained from a team that finished last in the AL West the year before, I understand the model’s miss, but it’s good to remember that even something that incorporates projection systems will miss badly from time to time.
The worst miss in September? It’ll be this year’s Cardinals when the season is in the books, but for now it’s the 2019 Brewers, who were five games out of the second Wild Card on September 5. They went 18-5 to end the season, a rough mirror of this season’s St. Louis run. Of course, plenty of teams that start September five games out of the playoffs simply don’t make it, which explains why our system made them only 5.6% to secure a playoff berth — and why teams in that rough bucket have actually made the playoffs only 7% of the time in our sample.
On the other side of things, the 2015 Nationals started out 27-18, and we pegged them at 98.3% likely to make the postseason. They posted a losing record the rest of the way, a desultory 56-61, while the Mets caught and passed them. The only other team with similarly strong odds that went on to miss was Cleveland in 2019 — they looked like the class of that division early in the season, and won 93 games, fairly close to our 97-win projection. The Twins were simply better — they won 101 games — and 93 wins just missed the Wild Card cutoff. It’s hard making projections sometimes!
Does all of this mean that the odds work? That’s up to you to decide. I can tell you that they work better than looking at a team’s season-to-date play, and far better than flipping a coin, but I don’t know what your minimum accuracy to deem a model successful is. For my part, I’m happy with them. They generally point in the right direction, they tell a consistent story, and they’re especially useful early in the season, though all models have higher error bars that early on.
That doesn’t mean they can’t be improved. Our method, while it involves several projection systems, is reasonably straightforward. There aren’t many moving parts — mean projections and playing time mushed up against the remaining schedule and the current standings. I’ve always thought it would be helpful to add some type of depth layer on top of that, and I still hope we’ll implement it at some point — thanks, Morris Greenberg, for an interesting solution to this problem that I still can’t quite wrap my head around.
For the moment, though, I’m satisfied. Do our odds miss the mark from time to time? Of course they do. For a low-input model, the fact that it handily outperforms naive projections early in the season and keeps ahead of them as we get down to crunch time says enough for me. And hey, sometimes the ones that look like errors end up okay. That Blue Jays projection — 4.6% on August 27 — looked pretty bad, until it looked good. It might yet look bad! The outcome of future games is unpredictable — one of the great selling points of sports. A low-probability run doesn’t mean probability is broken — it means something incredible is happening. And really, isn’t that the best takeaway of all (says the writer who thinks the odds work, of course)?
One last thing: want some big tables of all the data I used in constructing this? Here’s a raw table of the five-percentile and one-percentile cutoffs used to construct the above graphs, unedited for teams that have clinched a postseason berth or been eliminated from contention:
| Odds | Count | Our Odds | Observed |
|---|---|---|---|
| 0 | 15975 | 0.006 | 0.008 |
| 0.05 | 2201 | 0.074 | 0.115 |
| 0.10 | 1694 | 0.125 | 0.168 |
| 0.15 | 1577 | 0.175 | 0.183 |
| 0.20 | 1372 | 0.224 | 0.221 |
| 0.25 | 1093 | 0.273 | 0.269 |
| 0.30 | 956 | 0.325 | 0.326 |
| 0.35 | 888 | 0.375 | 0.392 |
| 0.40 | 808 | 0.424 | 0.376 |
| 0.45 | 780 | 0.475 | 0.437 |
| 0.50 | 730 | 0.525 | 0.468 |
| 0.55 | 722 | 0.575 | 0.517 |
| 0.60 | 741 | 0.625 | 0.576 |
| 0.65 | 714 | 0.675 | 0.653 |
| 0.70 | 635 | 0.725 | 0.753 |
| 0.75 | 715 | 0.776 | 0.787 |
| 0.80 | 738 | 0.826 | 0.837 |
| 0.85 | 920 | 0.876 | 0.855 |
| 0.90 | 1211 | 0.927 | 0.895 |
| 0.95 | 3374 | 0.986 | 0.993 |
| 1.00 | 2806 | 1.000 | 1.000 |
| Odds | Count | Our Odds | Observed |
|---|---|---|---|
| 0 | 12880 | 0.001 | 0.001 |
| 0.01 | 1088 | 0.015 | 0.024 |
| 0.02 | 772 | 0.025 | 0.014 |
| 0.03 | 623 | 0.035 | 0.043 |
| 0.04 | 612 | 0.045 | 0.070 |
| 0.05 | 473 | 0.055 | 0.085 |
| 0.06 | 457 | 0.065 | 0.101 |
| 0.07 | 457 | 0.075 | 0.129 |
| 0.08 | 424 | 0.085 | 0.130 |
| 0.09 | 390 | 0.095 | 0.138 |
| 0.1 | 339 | 0.105 | 0.142 |
| 0.11 | 328 | 0.115 | 0.174 |
| 0.12 | 349 | 0.125 | 0.192 |
| 0.13 | 335 | 0.135 | 0.176 |
| 0.14 | 343 | 0.145 | 0.155 |
| 0.15 | 302 | 0.155 | 0.189 |
| 0.16 | 317 | 0.165 | 0.164 |
| 0.17 | 330 | 0.175 | 0.182 |
| 0.18 | 326 | 0.185 | 0.199 |
| 0.19 | 302 | 0.195 | 0.182 |
| 0.20 | 304 | 0.205 | 0.184 |
| 0.21 | 263 | 0.215 | 0.183 |
| 0.22 | 309 | 0.225 | 0.214 |
| 0.23 | 236 | 0.235 | 0.250 |
| 0.24 | 260 | 0.245 | 0.285 |
| 0.25 | 246 | 0.255 | 0.199 |
| 0.26 | 247 | 0.265 | 0.304 |
| 0.27 | 204 | 0.275 | 0.240 |
| 0.28 | 204 | 0.285 | 0.309 |
| 0.29 | 192 | 0.295 | 0.302 |
| 0.30 | 198 | 0.305 | 0.333 |
| 0.31 | 216 | 0.315 | 0.347 |
| 0.32 | 171 | 0.325 | 0.263 |
| 0.33 | 191 | 0.335 | 0.288 |
| 0.34 | 180 | 0.345 | 0.394 |
| 0.35 | 175 | 0.355 | 0.389 |
| 0.36 | 179 | 0.365 | 0.397 |
| 0.37 | 173 | 0.375 | 0.387 |
| 0.38 | 170 | 0.385 | 0.424 |
| 0.39 | 191 | 0.395 | 0.366 |
| 0.40 | 166 | 0.405 | 0.337 |
| 0.41 | 179 | 0.415 | 0.346 |
| 0.42 | 173 | 0.425 | 0.416 |
| 0.43 | 135 | 0.435 | 0.333 |
| 0.44 | 155 | 0.445 | 0.445 |
| 0.45 | 165 | 0.455 | 0.406 |
| 0.46 | 156 | 0.465 | 0.404 |
| 0.47 | 137 | 0.475 | 0.460 |
| 0.48 | 154 | 0.485 | 0.487 |
| 0.49 | 168 | 0.495 | 0.435 |
| 0.50 | 162 | 0.505 | 0.426 |
| 0.51 | 127 | 0.515 | 0.496 |
| 0.52 | 151 | 0.525 | 0.444 |
| 0.53 | 151 | 0.535 | 0.497 |
| 0.54 | 139 | 0.545 | 0.489 |
| 0.55 | 136 | 0.555 | 0.441 |
| 0.56 | 143 | 0.565 | 0.517 |
| 0.57 | 162 | 0.575 | 0.562 |
| 0.58 | 152 | 0.584 | 0.467 |
| 0.59 | 129 | 0.595 | 0.597 |
| 0.60 | 158 | 0.605 | 0.532 |
| 0.61 | 144 | 0.615 | 0.618 |
| 0.62 | 148 | 0.625 | 0.527 |
| 0.63 | 140 | 0.635 | 0.600 |
| 0.64 | 151 | 0.645 | 0.609 |
| 0.65 | 143 | 0.655 | 0.713 |
| 0.66 | 149 | 0.665 | 0.597 |
| 0.67 | 124 | 0.675 | 0.621 |
| 0.68 | 157 | 0.685 | 0.618 |
| 0.69 | 141 | 0.695 | 0.716 |
| 0.70 | 125 | 0.705 | 0.744 |
| 0.71 | 121 | 0.715 | 0.736 |
| 0.72 | 134 | 0.725 | 0.687 |
| 0.73 | 123 | 0.735 | 0.756 |
| 0.74 | 132 | 0.745 | 0.841 |
| 0.75 | 136 | 0.755 | 0.735 |
| 0.76 | 134 | 0.765 | 0.813 |
| 0.77 | 127 | 0.775 | 0.819 |
| 0.78 | 158 | 0.785 | 0.810 |
| 0.79 | 160 | 0.795 | 0.763 |
| 0.80 | 141 | 0.805 | 0.823 |
| 0.81 | 131 | 0.815 | 0.855 |
| 0.82 | 155 | 0.825 | 0.819 |
| 0.83 | 152 | 0.835 | 0.836 |
| 0.84 | 159 | 0.845 | 0.855 |
| 0.85 | 177 | 0.855 | 0.847 |
| 0.86 | 174 | 0.865 | 0.833 |
| 0.87 | 168 | 0.875 | 0.845 |
| 0.88 | 193 | 0.885 | 0.886 |
| 0.89 | 208 | 0.895 | 0.861 |
| 0.90 | 198 | 0.905 | 0.848 |
| 0.91 | 239 | 0.915 | 0.883 |
| 0.92 | 208 | 0.925 | 0.899 |
| 0.93 | 263 | 0.935 | 0.916 |
| 0.94 | 303 | 0.945 | 0.914 |
| 0.95 | 343 | 0.955 | 0.968 |
| 0.96 | 355 | 0.965 | 0.994 |
| 0.97 | 365 | 0.975 | 0.978 |
| 0.98 | 503 | 0.985 | 0.998 |
| 0.99 | 1808 | 0.998 | 1.000 |
| 1.00 | 2806 | 1.000 | 1.000 |
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
It would be interesting to see the deviation per category per month, if that makes any sense. Basically if a team is projected to have a 50% chance of making the playoffs, how much are you off at opening day. How much are you off at July, etc.
That said, great work. It would also be interesting to compare your odds versus other sites, but that might be harder to get the data that you need
I would love this. Showing us deviation from daily projections shouldn’t be off at all. They adjust every single day. Kind of stacks the deck in favor of the projections. Monthly would be fascinating though.
Great work. It goes almost without saying that all of the skeptics’ complaints would apply equally to the simple coin flip model, which has no complicated assumptions.
Does anyone truly believe that going 16-0 is not unusual and unlikely? It’s just that nearly everyone fails to think probabilistically in general, from the average layman to highly educated scientists.
Having spent time watching people comment on polls in America, yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and say that most people have 1) poor-to-no understanding of probability and/or 2) poor-to-no ability to separate their feelings from empirical observation
Some folks in the VEB comment section ran some R code to figure out the probability of a streak for a team in a 162 game season, and came up with the following:
streak probability
10 7.278589e-02
11 3.676217e-02
12 1.841033e-02
13 9.181169e-03
14 4.569096e-03
15 2.271486e-03
16 1.128647e-03
17 5.606385e-04
18 2.784433e-04
19 1.382756e-04
20 6.866282e-05
21 3.409344e-05
22 1.692762e-05
23 8.404230e-06
24 4.172319e-06
25 2.071260e-06
26 1.028180e-06
27 5.103647e-07
28 2.533197e-07
29 1.257285e-07
30 6.239861e-08
So for a 17 game streak, that would be a 0.056% chance of that happening.
A 15 game win streak is predicted to occur once every 457 years for any given team.
16 game win streak – every 820 years for any given team
17 game win streak – every 1993 years for any given team
18 game win streak – every 3788 years for any given team
19 game win streak – every 7463 years for any given team.
As Ben said in the article, beating the odds is indicative of something incredible happening. And it certainly happened here! I have no problems with what Waino said, because for most people it’s really hard to think in probabilities, and these probabilities are so miniscule it’s hard not to look at them and say ‘that’s impossible.’ Waino, to me, is basically justified in thinking they did the impossible (when it was really highly improbable).
(Side note: I just copied what these fine folks came up with, so I’m hoping that their work is correct. It looks solid to me, however.
Credit: https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2021/9/29/22699057/the-cardinals-rarely-disappoint#544987212)
Has Waino always been one of those old school anti-analytics troglodytes, or is this a one-off comment?
I seriously doubt many pure “anti-analytics” players, managers, or coaches exist anymore in the game today.
I totally read it as him joking. When I hit a 1-in-100 shot in life, I absolutely say “look what those dang odds said!”
“NOBODY BELIEVES IN US” has become such a trope that I fully expect the 102+ game winning, WS defending 2021 Dodgers to use it as a rallying cry in the WC game
TBF I think of the Dodgers’ “win” in 2020 and only hear Snake Plissken: “Champions of WHAT.”
Unlike John Sterling, at least Waino knows who fangraph is.
What’s funny to me is that Gyorkass’ comment is sort of an old-school anti-analytics troglodytic reading of Wainwright’s comment. Like, you REALLY have to go beyond the evidence and bring a lot of baggage into the conversation to come to that conclusion.
I know he has been taking hometown discounts on contracts, but I hope Wainright is a paid subscriber. Much better to read about your low playoff probability in dark mode and without ads.
Wow, those are impressive graphs!
Re: a 4% difference. During trade and offseason GMs and teams are praised or damned for a 4% swing in playoff odds. That’s like landing a superstar at the deadline. Seems odd to chalk it up as ‘no one can even tell the difference between 10 and 14’ here because I’m so used to hearing odds referred to in the other context, where 4% is significant. .
Thanks so much for writing this. I’ve been one of those complainers with a poor understanding of probability, primarily because I see SO many articles written using the Fangraphs playoff odds as a starting point: the Padres were X% and now they’re X-Y%; the Mets were X% and now they’re X-Y%; the Cardinals were X% and now they’re X+Y%!
Of course, I’m reminded here, the reason to invoke these numbers is because they usually are predictive, and when unexpected events occur, they’re worth exploring.
I believe that Fangraphs has a less than 1% chance of predicting a 17-game winning streak.
It kind of feels like the Cardinals’ 17-game winning streak is being positioned as the nemesis of the A’s 20-game winning streak that is an integral part of the Moneyball mythos of advanced statistical analysis.
Ultimately, it’s like Nate Silver has to say every election cycle on his website: odds are not a prediction.
I’d like to see the model retroactively applied to and tested on several notable past seasons: 2011 AL East, 1978 Al East, 1969 NL East, 1951 NL…
First and foremost, I think that people who criticize your playoff odds don’t fully understand that it’s not your fault that the data you’re presenting and the story it tells is not the story they want it to tell.
However… and I am generally loathe to offer comments when I don’t have suggestions, but I’m going to do so here…
There aren’t many moving parts — mean projections and playing time mushed up against the remaining schedule and the current standings.
The one thing that strikes me about the process is that the “remaining schedule” doesn’t seem to incorporate who the opponent actually is at the time of play, rather than who the opponent has been as a team. To take a simple example – a team facing the Angels and Shohei Ohtani on the mound has a worse chance of winning than a team facing the Angels starting any other pitcher. A team that is lefty-heavy may not match up well against a team with lefty starters. And, post-trade deadline, a team’s roster construction can change in material ways one way or another.
Does the model account for these factors, or just generally consider strength of schedule in terms of the opponent in general?
THe model uses the current projections and depth charts to estimate each team’s strength. The projections are updated automatically every day. The depth charts are manual but they seem to get updated pretty promptly when there are trades, injuries etc. Overall I don’t think there’s much of a problem with the strength estimates being out of date.
I seem to recall an article saying that they do adjust the chances of each team winning a game based on who their starting pitcher is, at least for the next few games (further into the future you can’t be sure who it’ll be, so there’s not much point). A quick search didn’t find it though, so I may be imagining that. As far as I know they don’t take platoon splits into account at all.
I would presume FG’s odds are built up from a Bayesian decision tree (as are 538’s I believe). There is an excellent chance Wainwright has no idea what that means, or how to interpret it. I’m not even sure it’s worth the effort.
Eh there’s not much space between what 538 calls Bayesian and a standard tree and branch.
Well, whatever you do, don’t tell Wainwright that there’s a -400% chance he has no idea.
There’s an explanation of how it works here: https://www.fangraphs.com/standings/playoff-odds/about . It simply simulates the season 20,000 times using the projections and depth charts to estimate each team’s strength (and i think for the next few games it also adjusts for the identity of the starting pitcher).
The playoff odds system simply simulates the season 20,000 times using the projections and depth charts to estimate each team’s strength (and i think for the next few games it also adjusts for the identity of the starting pitcher).
Hit the About button on the Playoff Odds page for an explanation (I did provide a link, but that comment is waiting for moderation.)
If they hold on to win their division, will this year’s Giants be the division-winning team with the lowest odds to win its division? Their odds were 0.2% in the preseason, and I suppose they might have been even lower at some point after a few games. The only other division winner in recent years that I could find with preseason odds to win its division below 1% was the 2018 Braves at 0.9%.
It’s more the intra-postseason odds that confuse me. I’d like to see the math behind the Dodgers still being WS favorites per Fangraphs odds, despite the high likelihood they’ll play in an elimination game right off the bat.
I suspect it works out to Max Scherzer giving them something like a 67% chance to win a single elimination game, then something like a 67% chance of winning each subsequent series because of their depth.
I think the projections are still selling the Giants short because there’s no logical reason the entire roster should be having career years at the same time and they’re all being heavily regressed to the mean. Which is 100% the right way to do projections, but does lead to low WS odds for a 100-win division leader.
Fair I suppose, although the notion that the Dodgers are so much better than the division winners as to be favorites despite the play-in game handicap doesn’t pass the sniff test for me.
The Yankees also have higher WS odds than the Rays, and they still have something like a 20% chance to miss the playoffs entirely.
I agree it’s not intuitive, and it may not be accurate. As I said, it’s probably a result of virtually every Giants player being heavily regressed to the mean. As for the Rays, I don’t think the projections know what to do with their unconventional pitching management. And I think both teams suffer in projections because they play matchups in ways that don’t model well at the depth chart level.
But there may also be something screwy under the hood. I was just playing with the projected standings, and changing from FanGraphs projections to forecast based on season to date records still leaves the Dodgers with slightly better WS odds than the Giants. I’m not sure how you can project the Dodgers to be that much better than the Giants based only on results in a season the Giants have been better in.
It’s something I’ve noticed across several seasons, so I don’t think it’s tied to underprojecting certain teams.
I’d love to see a similar exercise for the WS odds.
There’s a chance that projected team strength plays too large a role in the playoff odds (or the team projections themselves are off) where short series create more variable outcomes, teams are closer together in talent, and roster usage can change drastically.
I.e. Overall, the projections just really like the Dodgers so the odds of them moving on should they get to each successive round are much higher than for other teams.
That said, I agree that at this point that it’s hard to make the case that the Dodgers are a significantly better team than the Giants.
I think what’s telling about how strongly the projections feel about the Dodgers is that they have a .552 estimated remaining strength of schedule and are expected to have a .583 win % in those games.
The Giants have a .517 estimated remaining SOS, but only a .533 expected win %.
It’s a similar story for the Yanks and Rays. The projections just don’t believe in the Rays and Giants nearly as strongly as the Yanks and Dodgers respectively.
The Blue Jays (1.9%) also currently have slightly better WS odds than the Cardinals (1.6%) even though the Jays playoff odds are 22.7% and the Cards are 100%. The Cards are also at 36% for the LDS while the Jays are at 11% for the LDS.
But overall the projections just really like the Jays better as a team which means their odds of winning each successive round, if they make it to the playoffs, is much greater giving them slightly higher WS odds even if they have lower odds of reaching each preceding round.
Could be. If that’s the case, and it’s accurate, it doesn’t square very well with the “playoffs are a crapshoot” narrative.
I mean, the highest WS odds in the league right now are the Dodgers at 20%. That’s firmly in “anything could happen” territory. If the favorite entering the playoffs loses four times out of five, that’s a crapshoot by my standards.
My perspective is if it’s a crapshoot, there shouldn’t be any WC teams with odds higher than division winning teams.
The comparison using season-to-date records gives World Series Win odds at 13.6% to LAD and 13.5% to SFG. Given that the Giants hold the logical edge over the Dodgers in that projection through every other stage of the playoffs (make WS for example tilts to San Francisco 25.9-22.2), might it be that this is just a rounding error?
You write “Spare a thought, too, for the 2018 Oakland A’s, who we pegged at 2.9% after a 5-10 start. They, too, went on quite a streak; 36-36 in June 18, they went 37-13 in their next 50 games. By then, we had them at 77% to make the playoffs, but we certainly had a low estimation of their strength starting out. Given how many players they retained from a team that finished last in the AL West the year before, I understand the model’s miss, but it’s good to remember that even something that incorporates projection systems will miss badly from time to time.”
I think your comment about “…I understand the model’s miss” is the wrong conclusion.
Is it a miss? You show in the figure about how well the model does, overall. If you have them pegged at 2.9% and they make the playoffs, that means 3 in 100 times they are predicted to make the playoffs from that spot…and the 2018 A’s were one of those 3 in 100 times.
That’s not a miss at all, unless I misunderstood your conclusion.
I, a Braves fan, am curious about team level biases that might identify structural issues with the model. Like, does the model under or overshoot a teams performance systematically? What does that tell us about the the inputs? What might we be missing. The aggregate reduced form effects here are only the first step.
I think one of the things to understand about these models is that they aren’t static situations. Players get injured, players get traded, and that impacts the results on the field and the projections as well. Where’s the turning point in the NL East this year? The trade deadline. And that’s true largely because of the Mets going 9-19 in August, the Phillies going 17-11, and the Braves going 18-8.
The Mets had a better roster until deGrom and everyone else goes on the IL, and they end up using 60+ players on the season. If the FanGraphs Depth Charts projections for rate statistics and playing time are off, so will the projections for wins and losses. Conversely, when you trade for starting outfielders to replace the ones who have gone down, that also changes the projections.
One of the hardest things these models have to face is what the front offices do or don’t do as the season goes on.
I feel like there might be a few things going on but haven’t done any real digging.
1. The models might be slower to adjust their projections for players who have been over performing expectations. Giants have had a lot of guys perform at unlikely levels and the Rays regularly cycle through/call up/trade for unproven talent and find strong performers.
2. The Giants and Rays squeeze better numbers out of guys through aggressive platoons and other strategies to tilt the odds in their players’ favor in a given situation.
3. I still think models undervalue RPs and bullpen depth.
“The worst miss in September? It’ll be this year’s Cardinals when the season is in the books…”
This year’s Mariners (0.5% on Sep. 18) would like a word.
As I understand it, the playoff odds don’t try to account for the possibility of the underlying projections (ZiPS+Steamer+depth charts) being wrong. That will make them underestimate the chances of the teams the projections think are weaker and overestimate those of teams they think are stronger. That might explain why you see the underprojection at the low end, if a lot of those data points are should-be weak teams. It’s hard to tell, though, because the low probability data points will also include strong teams who’ve ended up in a bad position – it might be interesting to just look at how the start of season odds perform.
Totally agree with this, that’s one thing I think we would fix in a perfect world, and probably will at some point. The odds rely on point forecasts at the moment, changing that would certainly sharpen them further.
“Can you tell the difference between a 10% and 14% chance? ”
If I’m a bookie offering 9-1 odds, my bank balance will eventually be able to tell the difference 🙂
You know, there’s something a bit weird about testing nearly 40,000 projections with just 210 observations. Not wrong, necessarily, but it does feel a bit off.
So Far you’re playoff Odds have been Shotty AF! Ya had Mariners at almost less than 3-1% overall playoff chance, after 4 games they now have more than 25-30% chance. Zips has been horrible to say the least. Also I honestly don’t think Wainwright is being humor-colorful, I believe he’s slighting against, as in he’s saying We may have won 17 in a row which is improbable but even if we didn’t we knew we would make it with the Humans we have. FanGraphs; Oh he’s just talking about 17 game win streak let’s look at the probability of that to back our horrible “early season projections” and give excuse to why we couldn’t factor that in… Ummm It’s Called Baseball which he’s saying, no matter the numbers ya can’t predict the humans, there feelings on the day, or The Game Of Baseball! Duh
That is….an impressive array of words and thoughts.
Duh (sarcastically ). You might benefit from a few stats classes
I give up. What language did this get translated into, then back from?
Based simply on observation, It feels like the odds would benefit from a bit of regression. There are just so many examples of baseball team performances defying fangraphs-style odds. (Giants, Cardinals, Mariners, this year alone).
I stand by my stance from about 6 weeks ago that if the Mets were listed as playoff contenders in the article on contenders, then the Mariners had every right to be listed as well.
I do see one big flaw, The Dodgers are currently at 12.7% chance to win the division(it’s actually lower the Giants just walked off in the bottom of the 9th), but the favorites to win the World Series at 20%, Astros have wrapped up their division and they’re behind LA with a 16% chance.
The Giants, currently with 105 win, are 87% chance to win the division, but 8.7 to win the WS.
I can’t see how a team, no matter how good, can be the the WS favorite almost certainly facing a one game playoff just to get in to play the first round.
It’s in the projections. If you look at expected wins at the start of season, the Dodgers were projected 100 and they’ve outplayed that now to 105. The closest teams at start of season (Yankees 95, Houston 89) have not challenged (now 93, 95) that dominance. Every other team in the playoffs (especially from the NL) was projected an 80-85 win season (except the Giants at 76) so the Dodgers aren’t penalized much in matchups.
You can see it in how they quickly climb the odds through the different stages: MakeLDS, they are at 67.5% (so WC2 knocks them out about a third of the time) but then WinLDS they are at 45.2% (i.e. if through the WC they’ve again got a 66% chance in that series) which leaves them sitting as likely as teams with nonWC odds. Basically, the projections are weighting more than current record, so they get dinged very little facing either the Cards in the WC or the Giants in the LDS (or any NL team, for that matter, the odds give them a 68% chance of winning the LCS if they get there).
In the AL, the teams are rated more close together so no one team has that clear a path.
0.68 * 0.68 * 0.68 actually just edges 1.00 * 0.56 * 0.56
Definitely counterintuitive and in this case, probably we’d all imagine the Giants’ record should factor more than it seems to be (especially when the head-to-head record slightly favors them).
The Giants have won 105, the Dodgers are 2 games back of that with 3 to play.
No team in against any playoff team should be 66% favorite in a one game playoff, especially against a Cardinals team that’s won 19 of 20, and has already clinched and can rest their bullpen and set up their rotation.
Then they will be playing a 107? win team in the Giants. 107 is not a mirage in a 162 game season, and the Dodgers should not be 68% favorites against them.
Purely on record, a team with a W% of .654 should beat a .556 team about 59.5% of the time. The extra 6.5% is probably a reflection that: a) the Dodgers have a dominant starter lined up for the game and b) before that Cardinals team that went 19 of 20 they were 71-71.
As for the Giants, I agree with you. The season record, head-to-head, and home field advantage all suggest a LADvSFG LDS should be pretty close. I was just trying to explain how I think they got to that conclusion (overweighting the projection that clearly missed something in the Giants all season).
That said, I think it makes sense for Fangraphs to stick with their model for the sake of consistency rather than trying to massage individual matchup values between the season wrap-up and the postseason. Everyone is aware that any model will have some blind spots.
I feel like the Cardinals winning the wild card validates the model rather than disproves it. When it takes a 16-game winning streak paired with the Padres going 3-17, you can’t exactly say it was likely to happen.
Of course they didn’t need ALL of that to happen as they’ll win the WC by several games. But I think it shows what a 5% chance looks like.
I hate to say this but this is super misleading. You have a such a strong correlation because you are updating throughout the year and you have so many observations where there is low to no certainty (Orioles versus Dodgers). (2021 alone you have 30 + observations where Giants have 100% chance of making playoffs because they won more than 82 games before September). This is evident by the non-normal distributions of probability. A more honest estimate of accuracy would be to do preseason division rank spearmans rho. In 2021 preseason estimates of division rank have a correlation of .4 with end of season – pretty good but not super inflated like these statistics.