Poll: Chase Utley’s Suspension
Official word is in: Chase Utley has been given a two-game suspension for this.
Many league suspensions get appealed, though, and Utley’s case is no different, with Utley’s argument being that there isn’t much of a precedent for this at all. He wouldn’t have known he could get suspended for an aggressive takeout slide at second. A week and a half ago, this happened in Texas, and there wasn’t any discipline:
Unlike Utley’s slide, that one took place over the base, but it was also horribly late, with the runner coming down on the infielder’s shin. As the slide completed, the runner was several feet beyond the bag. But there wasn’t a major injury, and later on Rougned Odor apologized to Johnny Giavotella. It was one of those “just playing the game” things, and this isn’t meant to single out Odor. It seems like slides like this happen on a daily basis.
So, for Utley, it’s about the lack of precedent. He did something a lot of players would do, and he’s facing discipline in large part because the other guy happened to get injured. From the league’s standpoint, though, you have to start somewhere, if you want to eliminate this play. Someone has to be the first to get penalized, unless you want to wait to do anything until the playoffs are over. And I imagine they didn’t want to risk another injury. They wanted to make a statement, and this was an opportunity.
So! A poll, for you.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
Moral luck, as applied to baseball. I dig it.
Utley’s motive was transparent – he didn’t even bother to make an effort to touch second base, which I guess is now optional too. If this goes without appropriate measures by the MLB then call the playoffs the farce that it is. The MLB changed the catcher blocking home plate rule, so this is no way even close to the spirit of the rules. They should get ready to allow the Mets plenty of leeway to throw high and tight in the strike zone… after all, it’s the same reasoning if the slide is permissibile.
Nah. That kind of play has been part if MLB for a century. The ONLY reasons that any kind of penalty has been imposed are a) an injury was involved and b) it’s a playoff game.
Changing punishment policy in the playoffs makes no sense to me. I’m fine with them announcing a change on how these plays are called this off-season, and I don’t miss catcher-runner collisions at the plate.
All they have to do is start using their discretion to call runners out who are clearly trying to interfere with the play instead of just ignoring malicious intent. It’s within the rules for them to do so. At the very least, they could start calling runners out who are clearly not aiming for the bag.
I also don’t miss collisions at the plate. Injuries suck. You want to see men try to tackle each other? Go watch football. You want to see one man tackle another man who’s defenseless? Go watch wrestling. There are too many injuries in baseball already.
The Mets will punish Utley for what he did and gain revenge. There’s a fastball with Chase’s name written on it.
The Mets already threw at Utley earlier this season after an obviously wild Buchanan had hit 2 Mets and for hitting a home run off Harvey. Oh, the indignity of it all!
Where was the outrage then?
Oh wait…Harvey didn’t break Utley’s leg with that 95mph fast ball, so no one even remembers.
I’m not defending Utley. He and the batter should have been called out for interference. But he’s getting suspended for a type of play that MLB has looked the other way at for the entire history of the game. I think MLB is just trying to save face here simply because the umpires didn’t want to set a precedent in the middle of the playoffs. If they called Utley out, then every slide for the rest of the post-season would be under a microscope…injury or not.
For those who voted yes, do you deserve to get fined every time you jay walk? Sure it is against the law but no one enforces it.
It only took three comments to get to the absurd analogy!
Maybe you don’t ‘deserve’ since ‘everyone else is doing it,’ but if you do get fined, well, it IS against the law. Didn’t your mom teach you not to go jumping off bridges just because everyone else is doing it?
https://xkcd.com/1170/
The only time jaywalking violations are usually enforced is when said jaywalker caused an accident by forcing a driver to swerve around him. So when jaywalking causes harm, it is enforced. So, not the best analogy for you to use. Or maybe it is?
Given that Utley never even touches the base, the analogy is more like “should you get fined every time you pretend to jaywalk but actually just stop in the middle of street to obstruct traffic for awhile?”
In theory, yes. Yes I do. It’s a matter of whether the PD is available and willing to enforce the law on me.
You have never jaywalked in downtown Pittsburgh. They hand out hundred dollar citations all the time. No joke.
I think the punishment should have happened at the time of offense. The grey area thing just has never been sensible. If I hit the ground after the base I am going after the guy regardless of if my hand can briefly touch the base…and besides my slide ends beyond 3feet…beyond the base where I can’t touch the base so once again I was going after the guy. Seems pretty clear quite often, at least to me.
Utley had better watch out for his head next time he steps in the box. Someone breaks my shortstop’s leg I’m putting a fastball in his ear hole.
A rule on the books is only a rule if it’s enforced, which it hasn’t been up to this point on slides like this. I’m all for turning this into an opportunity to change the rules so players don’t get hurt. That said, they’re playing baseball, not Mao; you can’t change what rules are in play midway through the game.
I wonder how this poll splits LA vs NY vs rest of country…
I’m from flyover land, and I voted no suspension.
I do think MLB should grow up and in the offseason seek to define a “takeout” slide, and set a penalty of an automatic ejection + 2 game suspension + runner declared out at 1st as well for a takeout slide.
While still a judgment call, it’s not too tough to see which slides are designed to reach a base 1st without sliding over, and which aren’t.
To me it’s not just LA vs NY, but traditionalists vs progressive fans. There’s a definite split, but each side is made up of multiple camps.
I don’t think it’s fair to say the dividing line on this particular question is progressive/traditional fans.
This question isn’t asking whether we think takeout slides should be legal. There are a ton of us who oppose takeout slides as barbaric relics, but who also don’t think Utley should be suspended. If MLB wants to start enforcing rules against slides like this, I’m all for it. But they should do so by giving players notice in the offseason and clearly telling people that the rules, as enforced, will be changed.
The wisdom of a policy change is totally distinct from the fairness of punishing Utley under the current regime.
Couldn’t agree more. I think the MLB should better define this rule and start to actually enforce it consistently. BUT, there is no precedent for this and I definitely do not think Utley deserves a suspension for something the MLB has taught and encouraged for 100 years.
I think its silly to suspend Utley now, when this play has happened dozens of times in the regular season without a suspension occurring. The time to start enforcing a new rule is not the post season. This should be a suspendable play in the future, but not until the rule is officially altered in the offseason and the players are made aware that it is no longer tolerable. Utley is being made an example of at the wrong time, and its not fair at all to the Dodgers. I say that as a fan of an AL club, who doesn’t particularly care who wins the LAD-NYM series.
LOL at the ‘not fair at all to the Dodgers’ line, given the circumstances.
Mets got unlucky. It really sucks and it especially sucks for Tejada but I agree that it isn’t fair to the Dodgers.
I wonder if the time could be the post season if there was a declaration that any future slides like this will be punished in this manner. Though I suppose that maybe this is what the league feels it is doing?
The rules book clearly specifies that a slide must start before the base and the sliding player must touch the base regardless, to be awarded the base . Utley did neither. It was a take out, and unfortunately, in the situation and the severity of injury the league must enforce the rules. Utley should be a man and own it. He probably didn’t intend to hurt Tajada, but he did, and his actions were outside the rules. Admit the mistake, and move on . . . but don’t claim you did nothing wrong!
I think he did own it, and apologized for the injury.
It looks like contact was made as Utley was reaching down with his left hand to touch the base, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. But he did not start his slide until he got to the bag — clearly too late per the rule. Odor’s slide may have only been a step earlier, but it was before the bag and OK by rule.
Can you point to the portion of the rule book that “clearly specifies that a slide must start before the base and the sliding player must touch the base..”?
I’ll wait.
If this is a signal that MLB intends to begin enforcing the rule, they may need to increase the penalty somehow. The only in-game penalty is the imposition of a double-play, which would presumably happen any way without a take-out slide. Suspensions might preclude some takeout slides, but if an important game is on the line a player might still take out the defender and just hope the umpire doesn’t evoke the rule. If Utley knew that this could be his punishment ahead of time I would imagine he still takes out Tejada without hesitation.
No one would be considering a suspension to Utley if this was called properly (interference) or slightly improperly (force out at second on the field). I don’t think what Utley did deserves a suspension and I dont think he would have gotten one if the umpiring had been proper on the field.
Do we start calling for “fair catches” at 2b so the vulnerable SS/2B doesn’t get head knocked off while he reaches for the ball? Fact is Utley NEVER even considered touching the base, which proves his intent, the late slide is obvious obstruction/interference…both Utley and the batter should have been called out and that would have been the right call and the Mets leave the inning holding a one run lead instead of a 4 run deficit.
U mad bro?
My take, too. The ump, the whole ump crew, blew the call on the field. The suspension feels like ad hoc “justice” to make up for the umps’ failure to call the play by rule as it happened. And I don’t give a hoot whether the Mets or Dodgers win the series.
The big thing we can all agree on is that Utley should have never been awarded 2nd base.
The difference to me between Odor and Utley up there is that Odor at least went in to a sliding motion – left foot stretched out toward the base, right leg under him, but going towards the ground. it was late, but it was a slide. Utley’s was described by MLB as a “rolling block” and not a slide, and that’s what it looks like. What’s most telling is that he did not stick his left foot out like he was going for a base. He brought his left leg under himself, making no attempt to slide in on his backside. None of the other take-out slide examples I’ve seen feature anybody in Utley’s “rolling block” stance, so I don’t think those can be used as justification.
For me the thing isn’t weather the leg was out or not, it is where the player lands. If a player goes out beyond three feet or where he can reach the base we all know and recognize that the runner went out of the base line and was doing more than just sliding into the base. Laterality. These issues for the most part to me seem to be called grey when we aren’t dealing with laterality issues, we are dealing with plays more or less in the base line and often times behind the base. It is about where the slide starts and I think where it ends. If the slide starts after(I would personally argue on, but?) the base I am not trying for the base, but perhaps some of these guys are trying for a dandelion in the outfield grass and I should cut them slack?
Seems like everyone agrees that a change is necessary to reduce injury risk on collision plays. Me too. But why change the rules, or **the way rules are enforced** on this play, right now, in the middle of the postseason?
During the broadcast, Cal Ripken Jr (Hall of Fame shortstop) said it was a legal slide. Harold Reynolds (former second baseman) said it’s a legal slide. Tim Kurkjian surveyed 6 current and former major league ballplayers, including middle infielders, and they all said it was a legal slide. Every analyst on the MLB network has said it was a legal slide.
So it is a shock to see a player singled out and suspended for doing what hundreds have done before him without reproach.
With all respect to Joe Torre and MLB, they screwed this one up. They should have handled this via a rules change or point of emphasis in the offseason. Not make an unprecedented penalty for a play that all the non-Mets players seem to agree is legal under the current way the game is played and officiated.
Can we build a collection of legal/illegal slides for comparison?
Heavy collisions that are similar to Utley’s slide that were ruled legal:
Didi Gregorious – Jose Altuve
https://streamable.com/7cqd
Matt Holliday – Marco Scutaro
http://cjzero.com/gifs/HollidayScutaro.gif
Rougned Odor – Johnny Giavotella
http://gfycat.com/ThunderousFickleJanenschia
Other slides that should probably be ruled as outs on the field after rules change / umpiring point of emphasis in the future:
Jung Ho Kang – Danny Santana
http://giant.gfycat.com/SillyResponsibleCopepod.gif
Elvis Andrus – Didi Gregorius
http://i.imgur.com/a93sHgP.gif
Kang had a tibial plateau fracture. Much more serious than the fibula fracture of the Mets player. He will be out at least six months. May not be back by start of next season obviously. That slide was highly questionable. Slide started just past 2nd base. And it was one of the can do no wrong cubbies. I will not even give him the satisfaction of saying his name.
Let’s not forget one important thing: If Utley indeed plays Game 3, the Mets are almost certainly going to retaliate, and I don’t think they’re just going to plunk him in the back during his 1st PA. The next time the Mets have a runner on 1st and the Dodgers go for the force at 2nd, Utley is probably going to get hurt.
Your premise is flawed that Utley had no way of knowing he could be suspended for taking out a defenseless player instead of aggressively attempting to reach base. It is a garbage play that has no place in this great game . . . and just so happens to be a violation of the rules. You create sympathy for this garbageman by pointing to others who have gotten away with similar garbage. I was watching the Oakland Raiders play the Patriots in a preseason game years ago when Jack Tatum basically killed Daryl Stingley. Your statement that hey you have to start “somewhere” belittles Utley’s clear intent to take out out a player who could not defend himself. Your backhanded defense of his actions come across as underhanded.
David Wright – Chase Utley
http://i.imgur.com/z8mtWbR.gif
I see an outstretched front leg and tucked in back leg, so it looks like a slide to me. Utley never stretched out a leg or tucked in, he went for, in the parlance of Joe Torre, a “rolling block”. Not the same play, at all.
Nice gif. That’s a good example of how you can try to impact a double play without hurting someone. Utley should take lessons.
Hardly true at all. If Utley were in a more compromised position– say, in the air, with his back turned– he could have absolutely suffered the same fate. There is clear intent in wright’s slide here (the pop up into utley’s crotch and the blatant disinterest in touching the bag) to disrupt. One might even see this slide as more malicious given the pop up at the end, but that’s beside the point. The point here isn’t whether or not utley is a villain– if we’re buying the narrative, utley was a villain long before this slide happened, and wright, in spite of the provided evidence showing otherwise, continues to be a nice, thoughtful guy (which is probably true); the point is that this is a cultural problem, and instead of addressing the culture that creates it, MLB is attempting to make an example of one player. The rules are already on the books, and MLB could simply say that going forward– from this very minute– the umpires are going to interpret the rules more rigidly. I read this attempt at a suspension as a way for MLB to highlight the need for a rule change ASAP, but it really doesn’t seem like it’s a necessary step to take.
Disclaimer – I am a Mets fan.
Utley should NOT be suspended for the slide. He should not be punished for a hard slide just because someone got hurt. I don’t like the Posey rule and would not like to see something bad made worse due to a knee-jerk rule change.
That said, he SHOULD have been called out because he never made any real attempt to touch the bag. He slid WAY TOO LATE and completely MISSED THE BAG even though he could have touched it easily and still hit Tejada in the shins in an attempt to knock him off his stride. That would also mean that the double-play would have been called based on baserunner interference. Even if the umps don’t call the double-play, he is STILL OUT. Enforce the rules that are already written and all you would have is some pissed Dodgers hardcore fans saying that it was not interference or that it was not a neighborhood play.
The Odor slide was also way too late. He gets the base because of the error, and he gets the benefit of the doubt (this play happens all the time) because he touches 2nd during the slide even though it was a force-play like Utley. Objectively, I would probably want Odor called out.
No option for “should be arrested for assault”?
LOL at Police State Murica
California Penal Code 242 reads: “A battery is any willful and unlawful use of force or violence
upon the person of another.”
Kindly explain why this does not apply to Utley’s actions.
It would be the “unlawful” part, little idiot.
Chase Utley is a knight.
I fully support this disciplinary action.
I wanna know why none of my fellow baseball purists have brought up the biggest problem. These guys don’t know how to fricking slide anymore. Not a damn one of them. That slide by Odor completely stinks! He didn’t even begin until he was so close to the bag that HE was the one who’d get hurt 9 times out of ten. And it seems like more and more guys get hurt because they never learned a proper slide, be it 2nd base or third or whatever. Fix that and you fix a lot.
http://www.schtools.net/membersnew/documents/MIAA/Forceplayslide-NCAA.pdf
The NCAA rules on force play slides. They make a lot of sense.
Yes, IMO Utley’s slide is reckless, dangerous, completely unnecessary and should be the poster for why the rules need to be amended and enforced better. He slid incredibly late to an infielder with his back turned who had 0 chance to try and get our of the way.
That said… I understand why the MLB suddenly deciding to start punishing in the middle of playoffs makes people head’s explode when they do nothing about the many examples of this that happen in the regular season.
Players are rushed to the major leagues. They don’t learn the fundamentals. Sliding. Getting the hell out of the way at 2nd.
Now people will say that many of the examples above are established long-term players. That’s not what I’m talking about. Most of those were intentional. They are pushing the envelope & the umpires are letting it go. How many of them have them happened in the offender’s home stadium?
Regarding collisions at home plate… Catchers always had the option of not blocking the plate. They chose to block him. If they were to assume the risk, why should they not be allowed to? Runners got injured too. Remember Dave Parker breaking his face?
What they have done though, is opened up the catching position to smaller players. Players that don’t have to be able to absorb a hit. And allow older players to remain as catchers for much longer.
In the long run, and MLB is all about the Benjamins like any sport. If you want to know why some things done, just follow the Benjamins
Dear Chase, I feel like I can call you Chase because you and me are so much alike. I would love to meet you someday. It would be great to have a catch. I know I can’t throw as fast as you but I think you’d be impressed with my speed. I love your hair, you run fast. Did you have a good relationship with your father? Me neither. These are all things we can talk about, and more. I know you’ve been not getting my letters because I know you’d write back if you did.
And I hope you write back this time, and we get to be good friends. I am sure our relationship will be a real Home Run.