The Case for Trading Lucas Giolito
There’s a rumor out there that the Nationals would be willing to trade Lucas Giolito for Andrew Miller. That is almost certainly not true. There’s a related rumor out there that the Yankees don’t think Giolito would be enough in exchange for Miller. That is almost certainly not true. Miller is fantastic, no doubt, and the Nationals could use him, but it’s not like Miller is the only good reliever in the game, and Giolito is a wonderful prospect. Baseball America just ranked him fourth. MLB.com has him ranked fourth. Prospect people love Giolito. The Nationals think he’s pretty good, themselves.
This all raises an interesting question, though. How willing should the Nationals be to move Giolito for help? For Miller alone, it wouldn’t make great sense. Yet I do think there’s an argument to be made that Giolito should be more available than his prospect rankings would suggest.
It comes down to the difference between Giolito’s reputation and Giolito’s performance. He was a high draft pick, and he’s a highly-ranked prospect. He’s a highly-ranked prospect because people have seen him throw an outstanding heater, and a wipeout curveball. When scouts see two plus-plus weapons, and an intimidating frame, it doesn’t take much of a leap to envision long-term, big-league success. Giolito is supposed to have the tools. And his numbers have been more than acceptable.
But they haven’t been amazing, certainly not since Giolito graduated from A-ball. Last year, in the Double-A Eastern League, Giolito’s K-BB% ranked as “pretty good.” This year, in the same league, his K-BB% has ranked as “slightly above average.” Strikeouts have been present, but they haven’t come by the bushel, and the walks have been elevated. Walks are nothing new for big giant power pitchers, but command issues are a tremendous obstacle. They can’t be dismissed, and Giolito was anything but impressive in his brief time in the majors.
I wouldn’t read too deeply into those numbers. In the majors, Giolito has nine walks and five strikeouts, but, whatever. That’s nothing. Of greater interest: The stuff wasn’t…quite…there, not as advertised. I’ll pull from Baseball Savant. By average spin rate, Giolito’s four-seam fastball ranked in the ninth percentile. His curveball ranked in the 44th percentile. The drop on the curve is big, and it does look like a weapon, but the fastball result is more curious. Giolito didn’t throw an 80-grade fastball. Not with the Nationals. I don’t yet know what to make of that.
It’s not like I don’t believe the scouts. They’ve seen what they’ve seen. And Giolito does throw hard, which clearly boosts his ceiling. He’s helped by his size, which aids his plane. I’m just not in love with pitching prospects who don’t have outstanding numbers, or who haven’t shown much in the majors. Aaron Sanchez, this year, has proved my skepticism wrong, and sometimes pitchers do achieve that leap. Giolito still has to make that leap, and the majority of prospects don’t.
There’s no question he is a very good prospect. He’s already been a big-leaguer, and it’s always all about probability. Giolito’s probability distribution includes some ace-level outcomes. But for whatever it’s worth, this year, he hasn’t out-pitched co-prospect Reynaldo Lopez. He hasn’t out-pitched, say, Adalberto Mejia, who just earlier fetched Eduardo Nunez. Mejia doesn’t have Giolito’s raw stuff, but he has missed bats and thrown strikes. That has to matter for something. His command doesn’t need to improve so much.
If the Nationals love Giolito, that’s great. If the Nationals think he might be overrated, there could be an opportunity here. Giolito might even conceivably be around peak value, so the Nationals could cash him in, sending him to an organization that remains high on him. He’s definitely not someone to be given away, and for all I know he could be the solution to the Nationals’ current bullpen woes. Giolito is to be highly prized. But there are very legitimate questions. The Nationals, I’m almost sure, wouldn’t trade Giolito for Andrew Miller. But for, say, Dellin Betances? It’s not so far-fetched.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
Considering what they got for Chapman, the rumor doesn’t seem so outrageous to me at all. I actually think when you consider the years remaining on the contracts, Yanks would of gotten far more for Chapman than the potential return of Giolito for Miller.
Torres is a really nice return, but the other two prospects are more like suspects… McKinney has fallen right off the Top 100 list. See: http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2016?list=prospects
A lot of things can happen with prospects that far from the majors, as McKinney’s case illustrates. You could look at the top 24 player from other years and notice some guys who are not highly valued today.
For example, Aaron Hicks was #24 in 2011: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2011/
In 2012, Julio Teheran (not bad, but…)
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012
In 2013, Danny Hultzen (hmmm… not franchise altering…)
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/
Much as I would prefer a position player over a pitcher because of their staying power, Giolito is likely in your starting rotation next year. That is better than a starting shortstop some time 4 years from now when you may no longer be the GM of the Yankees.
I was not simply comparing Torres vs Giolito, I am comparing 2 months of baseball from Chapman for Torres + vs 14months of baseball from Miller for Giolito. Getting 7x more of Miller than Chapman, the return theoretically should be significantly greater.
The same way that all subsequent pitcher trades should be refused unless adjusted to reflect what the Braves got for Shelby Miller?
Teheran is a bad example to include. He’s a 25 year old with 8.8 fWAR so far in his career over 3 prior full seasons plus this year. That would be tremendous return for 2 months of a relief pitcher.
The crazy thing is he wouldn’t even be the closer unless they traded away Pap unless they wanted a redo of last year with Storen.
You have to be kidding.
Who else would the Nats need package Giolito with to get Sale?
Victor Robles.
Robles, Lopez, and maybe Turner.
Good lord, no. Giolito, Robles, Lopez, and Turner might get you Mike Trout. That would be a ridiculous overpay for Chris Sale.
That package would absolutely not get you Mike Trout. It wouldn’t be close. One year of Miggy cost two “can’t miss” top ten in Miller and Maybin, along with salary relief on Dontrelle Willis.
3 years of Sale will cost much, much more.
Willis was absolutely not considered “salary relief” back then. He was signed to a 3 year extension for $29 million two weeks after being acquired by Detroit, while Cabrera signed an eight year extension for $152 million three months later.
That package wouldn’t get you close to Trout and might not get you Sale. There is not a surefire star in that bunch, maybe decent MLB players, but the sox aren’t trading a perennial Cy Young candidate with a team control contract for a package where the most talented player is 19 years old and in High A ball.
You might want to read this: Scouting Earth’s Best Young Arm, Lucas Giolito by Eric Longenhagen. On Baseball America’s Midseason Top 100, Giolito ranked #4, Turner ranked #5, Robles ranked #13, and Reynaldo Lopez ranked #48. The only people who would suggest that might not be enough for Chris Sale are people who do not follow prospects at all. It would be a ridiculous overpay for Chris Sale.
It would be a “ridiculous overpay” for a 26 year old surefire ace owed less than $50m over the next 3.5 seasons?
Lol.
The only people who think that package would be in the conversation for Trout spent the night tear jerking themselves to sleep after the Sox traded an 18 year old in Low-A a couple weeks ago, because they’re so myopically focused on how good prospects might be that they don’t actually understand how much real teams actually value them.
Absolutely. You only think otherwise because you don’t follow prospects and you don’t understand how utterly ludicrous your suggestion of Giolito, “Robles, Lopez, and maybe Turner” looks to anyone who actually does follow prospects. That would be a franchise-changing trade.
Only one of us understands how much real teams value prospects and it definitely is not you, but kudos on the visual invective. No team has ever traded three top fifteen prospects for one major league player. No team has ever traded four top fifty prospects for one major league player. Remember that you just pretended Dontrelle Willis was “salary relief” given away by the Marlins instead of someone who was perceived to be a positive asset at the time. You pretended otherwise because you can’t think of any historical example that even comes close to what you’re suggesting the Nationals should surrender for Chris Sale, and you can’t do it precisely because no such historical example exists. No team has ever given up as much as you’re saying the Nationals should, or frankly even close to what you’re suggesting the Nationals should. You said something dumb, but instead of admitting that it was dumb and walking away, you’ve dug yourself a deeper grave by continuing to argue about it. Learn from that mistake and let this go.
Also, Chris Sale is not a “surefire ace.” He is currently allowing the highest percentage of hard contact in his career and the lowest percentage of soft contact since 2012. He’s also being pulled at a career high rate and has his lowest fastball velocity since 2012. The Chris Sale of 2014/2015 doesn’t exist any more. He’s still a very good pitcher but he is not the dominating force he had been.
Why would Giolito for Betances be more likely? Since 2014 Betances has a 1.86 FIP in 223 IP to Miller’s 1.80 in 50 less innnings. Betances is also three years younger. How much more costly will Betances be than Milller after this year? Miller is going to make 9 mil each of the next two years and the top reliever salary is about 11.5.
Exactly. Betances is more valuable than Miller.
The other thing about Mejia is this was his 3rd time at the AA level, while this is Giolito’s first. Good article definitely something to think about but I’m hoping the Nats don’t do it.
Nats should be able to fetch a solid reliever using a combination of Erik Fedde and Max Schrock plus one other prospect or Michael Taylor.
When does Giolito even crack the rotation? Who does he replace? Not Gonzalez as he is the only lefty. Maybe I am an outlier and do not have an obvious opening in their rotation. Teams like the Nats don’t let a guy like Giolito “work it out” while they are tying to compete, especially with a manager like Dusty Baker. The Nats are a contender now who could use a dominate back of the bullpen arm. Why would you hesitate to move a guy who has no clear path to the major and has basically stalled at AA (at 22 years of age) for one of the most dominant relievers in baseball?
If he’s performing like the top pitching prospect in the game the Nats will make room for him. Gio and Roark aren’t blocking Giolito only complete locks are Scherzer, Strasburg, and Ross for next years rotation. The team have a team option on Gio and every team doesn’t have a lefty in their starting rotation(i.e http://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-baltimore-orioles & http://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-atlanta-braves/) so room can easily be made for Gio/Lopez next year if there ready.
Even if one accepts the theory that a prospect is blocked, it doesn’t lower the prospect’s value. You don’t trade a guy for less just because you don’t currently have a spot for him – not unless there’s some other danger of losing him.
Clearly, Giolito no longer has a lock on everyone’s bowels
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/instagraphs/educational-film-lucas-giolitos-bowel-locking-curveball/
“But for, say, Dellin Betances? It’s not so far-fetched.”
I’m not sure what to make of this. It’s not even remotely far-fetched. Such a trade would lean so heavily in favor of the Nationals that I don’t see how they could possibly turn it down.
Giolito-for-Miller is the trade that makes sense. Yeah, Giolito is about 25% more valuable, but since it’s the trade deadline, and since the Nationals have such a clear need, it’s worth it.
Wow, said the same thing a few days again and got run out of town on a rail (thumbs downed!HA!) for it.
I’ve seen Giolito pitch, in the majors and minors, I just don’t think he is that good. I haven’t seen the fastball reach what was advertised and he couldn’t locate his secondary stuff if you spotted him the strike zone and both batters boxes.
Given the fact that he has literally flashed almost nothing extraordinary this year in his numbers and the eye test is even more dismal, It is nice to see a piece on the guy that isn’t “Relax”. Let’s be honest, he may have been way overhyped. It does happen, especially with pitchers. It’s why I tend to believe the Yankees wouldn’t take him alone for a proven star.
One more thing, with Dusty Baker managing the Nats, does Giolito even break the Nats rotation this decade? I’m kidding…kind of. Seriously though, who does he replace in the rotation? Not the only lefty. The Nats will be contenders for at least the next couple years, they are not going to let a guy with his struggles “work it out” while they try to contend.
The best thing for Lucas Giolito would be for him to get shipped out and the best thing for the Nats would be to get a dominant reliever that shores up what is probably their only weakness.
All moot now, Melancon to the Nats