It’s Oriole Mess Out There

Ron Chenoy-USA TODAY Sports

Before Game 2 of last year’s AL Wild Card Series, I asked Brandon Hyde a kind of stupid question. The Orioles, having been swept in the ALDS the year before, found themselves down 1-0 to the Royals in the series and were facing another rapid postseason elimination. The Orioles’ rebuild had gone on so long, and developed so much talent, that their progression to World Series contention had been assumed.

Hyde, the rare manager who’d survived a 100-loss tanking season through to the playoffs, had yet to win even one postseason game. So I mentioned that in other sports, coaches in his position have levers to pull in such desperate times. Was there anything a baseball manager has up his sleeve in a must-win game?

“I’m planning a spot to onside kick, try to get the ball back as quick as I possibly can in good field position,” Hyde joked in response. “Or I’m going to try to be like UNLV back in the early ’90s with Stacey Augmon and Larry Johnson, and try to get up and down the court as fast as possible. Besides that, I’m going to use my relievers as best I possibly can, try to put some zeroes up and try to score some runs.”

Hyde went there because he knew what I already knew when I asked the question, and so did everyone else in the room: There’s not a hell of a lot the manager can do in that situation.

Last year, the Orioles had the second-best offense in the AL, by both runs scored and wRC+, in both cases trailing only the team that had Aaron Judge and Juan Soto. And pitching wasn’t the problem in the playoffs; Corbin Burnes was awesome in Game 1, and Zach Eflin and six relievers fought the Cy Young runner-up to a standstill in Game 2.

But in 18 postseason innings, this offensive juggernaut scratched out just a single run. That won’t cut it anywhere, and the Orioles went home empty-handed for the second year in a row.

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I thought about that moment in the bowels of Camden Yards on Saturday, when the Orioles thanked Hyde for his seven-and-a-quarter years of service and sent him home.

The — and I apologize for using this word, but it’s the only way I can express it — vibe around the Orioles turned during that loss to the Royals. The organization had a new owner with something to prove. Burnes and Anthony Santander were free agents at season’s end, and various other supporting players were aging into the expensive parts of arbitration. The goodwill the Orioles had earned in 2023 and 2024 had been spent; merely appearing in the postseason would not be good enough.

The Orioles are by no means in this bad a position, but what I wrote about Bud Black and the Rockies last week was true of Hyde as well: Part of the manager’s job is to be fired. When a baseball team starts sinking, there’s an order in which the heads roll, and the manager is often at the front of the queue.

I even called this, sort of, back in November. The Orioles added Buck Britton to Hyde’s major league coaching staff; Britton had just led the Norfolk Tides — whose roster included numerous current Orioles — to an International League title in 2023. Adding a natural successor to the big league staff only underlined how wobbly Hyde’s chair had become. It’s how things work in football, and basketball, and hell, even in season three of Friday Night Lights.

In the end, it was third base coach Tony Mansolino, not Britton, who got this hospital pass of a job. A lot has changed since October. The Orioles fell behind 7-0 to the Nats in Mansolino’s first game and 6-0 in the second, both losses. Chelsea Janes described the spectacle in terms so vivid I simply have to quote her directly:

“I know the Orioles have a lot of issues. But they don’t have this many issues. This year has been like, an offended-the-baseball-ancestors-type, stepped on the foul line, someone broke a mirror-level debacle.”

If Mansolino didn’t already know how powerless a manager can be, he’s about to find out. He’s a decade younger than Hyde, which means he’ll probably be looking to Nolan Richardson’s Arkansas for inspiration in no time.

The Orioles have had some bad injury luck this year. Jordan Westburg has played 23 games; Colton Cowser has played just four; Grayson Rodriguez has played zero. Eflin has been on and off the IL, as has Tyler O’Neill, who went back on it the day after the Orioles fired Hyde.

Another mortifying roster move on Sunday: the DFAing of Kyle Gibson, who along with Charlie Morton, has not been able to bring veteran stability to a rotation that started undermanned and only became more so after Burnes’ departure and Rodriguez’s injury. Jackson Holliday and Gunnar Henderson have merely been good, rather than MVP-quality, while Adley Rutschman’s horrendous second half of 2024 has seeped over like a rancid ooze into the new year.

Good teams, well-constructed teams, suffer injuries and start cold every year. As of this writing, the Braves, Diamondbacks, Brewers, Red Sox, Blue Jays, Rays, Royals, Rangers, and Astros are all within four games of .500. Four of those teams made the playoffs last year; all of them, like the Orioles, started 2025 with at least a one-in-three chance of making the playoffs.

If the Orioles had gone through all those injuries and slumps and ended up where the Rays are, I don’t think anyone would’ve been surprised. Hyde would almost certainly still be in a job. But they’re 15-30; the only AL team with a worse record is the White Sox. Baltimore’s run differential is the second-worst in all of the majors, ahead of the aforementioned Rockies. This isn’t a cold team. This is a bad team.

It shouldn’t be. This ballclub came out of a seafloor-dredgingly awful tank with three no. 1 overall prospects: Rutschman, Henderson, and Holliday. Plus Rodriguez, Westburg, Cowser, Félix Bautista, Kyle Bradish, and the already-in-situ Cedric Mullins and Ryan Mountcastle. That’s the foundation of a very good team, as the Orioles showed in both 2023 and 2024.

But there’s something you need to know about foundations.

One of my favorite professors in college taught a class on Russian foreign policy. During a decades-long academic career, he’d been back and forth to what was then the Soviet Union numerous times, and accumulated enough interesting stories and funny one-liners to fill an entire semester. He had one about flying into Moscow during the Cold War and getting a cab into town. As in most big cities here, a big highway connected the airport to the city proper, and along the side of the road were dozens of fitted-out foundations, with nothing on top of them. My professor, naturally, asked his driver what was up.

“The foundation guys met their quota,” the cabbie said. “But the building guys didn’t.”

In Baltimore, the building guys are the two men quoted in the press release announcing Hyde’s firing: GM Mike Elias and owner David Rubenstein.

As much as I have great personal sympathy for Hyde, when a team with World Series ambitions starts 15-28, it’s hard to make the case that the manager is doing a good job.

But Hyde’s firing raises other questions. How is it that the Orioles lineup ended up with a load-bearing Tyler O’Neill? It wasn’t exactly out of the question that he’d get hurt, given his history. Maybe Elias is just inveterately optimistic about his players’ health. About a month ago, he expressed surprise that his top three pitchers had all gotten hurt at the same time: “Obviously, we knew Bradish was going to be out. But to have Grayson and Eflin on the shelf simultaneously this quickly into the season, at no point were we forecasting that, or expecting that. And that’s just the truth.”

It’s not the norm to have three good starters on the shelf at once (unless you’re the Dodgers, I guess), but it can happen. In fact, it happened to the Orioles last August with these exact same three pitchers, plus John Means. Who could’ve foreseen such a thing?

Speaking of the rotation: Why did the Orioles, instead of spending $33 million this winter to bring back Burnes, dish out a nearly identical sum to Gibson, Morton, and 35-year-old Tomoyuki Sugano? (If Sugano continues to outperform his FIP by nearly two runs all year, more power to him. But I’m looking at his peripherals the way I’d look at smoke coming from a neighboring house.)

It’s not like Rubenstein hasn’t spent, at least in relative terms. The Orioles won 101 games on a $66 million payroll in 2023; this year, they’re spending $165 million. Why aren’t they three times better? Well, that $165 million payroll is 15th in all of baseball but only fourth in the AL East, where the Yankees are spending $287 million, the Blue Jays $253 million, and the Red Sox $211 million, all before the luxury tax.

More than that, the 2023 Orioles were built mostly of pre-arbitration players. Merely keeping the band together involves paying players as they age through arbitration. There are 15 players from the 2023 major league team who are still in the organization. That year, they made a total of $32.1 million. This year, those 15 players make $54.5 million, a figure that would surely be at least $10 million higher had Bradish and Bautista both not undergone Tommy John surgery.

When cheaper role players age into arbitration or free agency, replacements must be brought in. I already mentioned the 35-and-over starters’ club, but Andrew Kittredge, Seranthony Domínguez, and Gregory Soto are making a combined $22.85 million. That’s not even a good bullpen (or a healthy one, in Kittredge’s case); that’s just what it takes to get decent middle relief.

The Orioles dumped their bad contract from 2023, James McCann, who made $12.15 million in his final year with the team. Which saved them all of… $3.65 million after they signed Gary Sánchez to fill the same role. Replacing 2023 Santander with 2025 O’Neill cost an additional $8.1 million, with markedly worse results. The ledger goes on like that.

When the Orioles have dealt from their prospect surplus to acquire veteran talent, the results have been mixed. They got Burnes on the cheap, and he was great during the 2024 regular season and unbelievable in the playoffs. But they let him walk after only one year, choosing to go with the veteran appetizer sampler over the Cy Young winner. The Trevor Rogers trade has been such a nightmare I wrote two different articles within six months about what a nightmare it was.

You can put a foundation in the ground for cheap (at least in this metaphor, if not in real life), but putting a building over it is a different project. It requires at least two of the following: luck, which the Orioles have not had this year; money, which Rubenstein has not yet spent in necessary volume; and cleverness, which Elias and his staff have not exhibited to the extent required to overcome limitations elsewhere.

Somewhere in another timeline, this Orioles team has stayed healthy, gotten the breaks, and received better-than-replacement-level production from its two big free agent signings. After all, Baltimore’s preseason playoff odds were 45.0%; even from a projection system that supposedly hates this team, that’s better than a puncher’s chance.

Likewise, there’s a timeline in which a $250 million Orioles team not only re-signs Burnes, but adds Max Fried and/or Alex Bregman as well. And that team could also face plant in the first two months of the season, to the peril of Hyde’s job.

The same excuses would certainly apply in that case. But those excuses would be more credible if the Orioles hadn’t left so much to chance when building this roster. There’s only so much a manager can do.





Michael is a writer at FanGraphs. Previously, he was a staff writer at The Ringer and D1Baseball, and his work has appeared at Grantland, Baseball Prospectus, The Atlantic, ESPN.com, and various ill-remembered Phillies blogs. Follow him on Twitter, if you must, @MichaelBaumann.

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JRMayneMember since 2016
1 year ago

I’m sorry, I didn’t read the article, I just clicked through to confirm the title is Baumann’s, as it had to be.

The title king lives; long may he reign.

CL1NTMember since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  JRMayne

yep the only reason I every read The Ringer was because of Baumann’s articles. Since he left, I’ve never been back other than the occasional Ben Lindbergh piece. Baumann is truly the best

Youppi!
1 year ago
Reply to  CL1NT

The Ringer is virtually unreadable now with their new website. One of the worst redesigns I’ve ever seen.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  Youppi!

It’s trash. There are still some writers I may take a look at, but 95% of their material is stuff I don’t care about at all. Grantland was wonderful, the The Ringer is basically Bill Simmons’ worst impulses and excesses unleashed.

Last edited 1 year ago by gettwobrute79
DoubleJ
1 year ago
Reply to  JRMayne

Second of His Name

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago

Yeah, it’s a mess & injuries have played a part, but, somewhere this has gone off the rails with the team building & building depth.

Let’s compare them to another playoff team last year that has had happen:

Starting CF has not played yet this year
3 WAR 3B/CF/RF has not played yet
Player with the most time in RF in 2024 has not played yet
Starting catcher has 22 PA’s this year.
Reliever with the most saves last year is out for the year.
FA SP signing for $16M has not pitched yet

That team is the Tigers, who have the best record in MLB. They’ve clearly had a bunch go right (Baez & Torkelson resurgence being 2, Casey Mize finally looking like a 1-1 pick, Dingler being an above average C, Trey Sweeney turning into a good SS, etc), but, at what point is it “luck” or something else?

I don’t know the answer, but, there is something instructive there, I think, with how the Tigers have seemingly built this “whole is greater than the sum of the parts” while the O’s are the opposite. Is it FO? Is it the manager? Both working in tandem?

Last edited 1 year ago by PC1970
Ostensibly RidiculousMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

The psychological factors are completely different.
The Os played out of their mind, set high expectations but had to grind to the finish, mentally and physically exhausted. And the end result was disappointment. (2nd place finish and wild card loss).
Now they gotta start all over without a couple key guys, and without known weak spots fixed.

The Tigers played relaxed with nothing to lose and shocked everyone. Now they start the season with all the confidence and swagger, the belief that they’ll be even better, and the knowledge that it doesn’t need to be a grind through slog for them to be successful.

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago

That crossed my mind after I made the initial post.

We always hear that momentum doesn’t translate from season to season & we shouldn’t use a “hot finish” (or “cold finish”) to impart any meaning on what will happen the next year year, but, in this case, it did.

Could just be a fluke, but, interesting, nonetheless.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

It seems like both the Tigers’ FO and Manager are much more creative and put together great supporting pieces who all know their roles, based on interviews I’ve seen.

Another foil could be the Royals.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

I mean, it helps that McKinstry has decided to just be Matt Vierling, haha – not to mention that Perez only got that many PA in RF last year because Kerry Carpenter missed half the season.

Gleyber Torres falling into their lap because the Yankees decided to depend on DJLM’s health for their 4th IF spot didn’t hurt, either.

bookbookMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

If one hundred people flip a coin 6 times, one guy will get heads every time. And the world will revere his genius.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

The slide from Adley and Henderson is concerning, but aside from that this is injuries and a bad rotation. And even then I do wonder how much of Henderson’s “slide” was him playing over his head from last year. An 8 win season from almost anyone is them playing over their head.

The reality is that half of the core lineup guys from last year are hurt or playing on another team, and the only three decent to good starters on the roster was someone who wasn’t going to contribute much this year anyway (Bradish) and two other guys with notable injury histories (Eflin, Rodriguez). It’s not like you can blame the manager for Povich, who wasn’t by any means a sure thing, or for Kremer who inexplicably has been a major part of the team’s plans for years rather than as a 5th starter. Or for Tyler O’Neill, who has run hot and cold his entire career.

The only real justification for this firing is if Hyde didn’t want to change anything on the hitting side (coaches, philosophies, etc). But more than likely he got fired because the Orioles front office is so allergic to long term contracts (and trading higher end prospects) that they instead relied on whatever older pitchers were willing to sign a one year deal and they got old much faster than the front office expected. That’s the thing about running out a rotation with one win starters, they’re all only an underperforming year away from being a zero win starter.

This is a team that is so worried about things going wrong and getting stuck with a long term bill for it, so they stockpiled veteran depth everywhere instead of going for impact contributors. And because of that they unintentionally brought about the on-field product they were trying to avoid. It will be very interesting to see what lessons Elias learns from this. Either in Baltimore or somewhere else.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

That Nationals team had stars on both sides of the ball though. Rendon, Soto and Turner all put up at least 4fWAR (and Robles nearly did because if his defence). As did Scherzer, Strasburg, Corbin.

I can imagine that a few Oriole position players play better and get to 4 fWAR. But that pitching staff? Sheesh – when 2025 Patrick Corbin would be the best starter on your team, that’s a problem. (Yes, I know I’m being hyperbolic, and I’d take a couple of their injured/just returned starters for the rest of the season over Corbin.)

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Is Elias making mountains out of molehills with his conservatism? What kind of team-ruining contracts could he have signed this year? A pitcher who blows their ACL? That doesn’t stop the Dodgers! How bad could he really mess up the team by going for it. I think that he should have put all his chips in. Even if it were to blow up, he’s shown he can recover from bad contracts and rebuilds given a couple years.

Basically, if he had done anything else but what he did this year (play it too safe) I think he would be okay. Now he is on the hot seat, I think. Hopefully they keep him, and he learns from his mistakes – they might have a year or two more to go all-in.

Get your butt out of the comfort zone Elias!

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  opifijikl

Gotta think ownership is playing a role, as well.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago

You are a billionaire and decide to buy your local baseball team. The previous owner was not exactly Mr Popular, and the team have just come through a long and gruelling rebuild – though they played really well the previous season and won over 100 games, they did then get swept in the playoffs. The team have got a young, cost controlled position player core, which is the envy of pretty much every baseball team. However, the pitching side, especially the starters, are not a strength.

What would you do? Because what has happened seems like a pretty good way to burn through fan good will towards the new ownership. And if (or, more realistically) the team goes through another rebuild, would you trust this ownership to actually spend money when the team is good again to turn them into genuine contenders – so why would you support the team through the lean years?

I might be completely wrong here – but if I were an Orioles fan, I think this would be so frustrating – beyond “my team sucks”, but it is a wasted year – and a wasted year of the cost controlled core, which is vital to them winning if ownership/front office aren’t going to sign good pitching.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago

There’s still plenty of stuff to do if ownership is being miserly. There’s plenty of stuff to do if ownership is being pushy.

I wonder how different the Orioles team would look if the owner forced Elias to trade Basallo – would Elias find a great deal that rebalanced the team and pushed them over the edge? Would he refuse and quit? Just thinking of ways to get better players on the major league roster NOW.

johndarc
1 year ago
Reply to  opifijikl

He’s running the team like a less successful mid 2010s Astros. Never sign anybody to big money/long term deals, because expensive, long, and/or bad deals get you fired.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  johndarc

Do bad deals get you fired? It feels like the consequences just aren’t there. Plus, Elias led the Orioles through a brutal tank with plenty of bad seasons and recovered from bad deals. He’s good at that part, he can navigate consequences very well! At least the Astros tried by getting Cole, Grienke, Verlander, etc. I trust Elias could navigate a signing gone bad, but he’s gotta try and make the signing. I also think the Astros had a good pitching coach that made everyone better, but I don’t know if I can say the same for the O’s.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  opifijikl

Here’s the defense he would employ: If he offered Eovaldi or Manaea an extra year or decided to top Fried’s deal by a meaningful amount (all of which were seen as extravagant at the time) and the guy they signed blew out his UCL then he wouldn’t be able to sign reinforcements next year and he wouldn’t have the help he needed then.

It’s not wrong, but logic can still be suboptimal even if the logic used to get there mostly makes sense. The problem is that if you instead just sign a load of guys to one year deals every year you’re still spending the same amount of money *and* you don’t have the shot of having an impact player. Avoiding opportunity cost only is a good strategy if you take the opportunity later. And there is no indication at all what kind of opportunity Elias would consider to be good enough. Whatever that is, I don’t know that it will ever present itself.

I have thought for a few years that Elias has shown a scarcity mindset—that he is always waiting for things to go wrong, and wants to keep the team’s powder dry in case it does. Well it has gone wrong now, so I am super curious what he does (assuming he is allowed to stay).

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
Shalesh
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think Elias’ scarcity mindset might just save the Orioles for next year or 2027. They trade Rutschman, O’Hearn, and Mullins at the deadline for pitching prospects and then build anew around those pitchers with Basallo, May, and Kjersted. They would have forgone this second wave opportunity had Elias put all his chips in last year or the year before as many here wanted.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Shalesh

They’re not trading Rutschman, not when his value is like this. But O’Hearn and Mullins make a lot of sense. Maybe Urias and Laureano too.

I don’t think they get meaningful pitching help for the most of these guys because they are rentals but it might help them a bit down the road, especially if they can sign good pitchers in the offseason.

johndarc
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

That’s the thing about running out a rotation with one win starters, they’re all only an underperforming year away from being a zero win starter.

I’ve phrased it as their plan A being a bunch of plan Bs, Cs, and Ds strapped together. They didn’t have to get Fried (which would have both helped them and deprived the Yankees of having Max Fried) and Burnes sounds like he preferred Arizona for personal reasons/was offered a high AAV short term deal by Baltimore, but surely there were other pitchers out there who would have taken their money.

The Pirates tried to sign Quintana and pivoted to Heaney. The Orioles couldn’t entice Andrew Heaney to pitch for them for a few million dollars?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  johndarc

I am not even sure there are any plan B’s here. Or at least if those were the plan B’s they were uninspiring.

The problem is that the pitching market in free agency went totally crazy last offseason. It is hard to imagine that they should have topped the deals for Manaea or Eovaldi. I do think the decision not to go for Pivetta is the only place where we can reasonably second guess them.

I think where this team is going to get second guessed until the end of time was the decision to hold onto Mayo and Kjerstad last offseason instead of flipping them for pitching. They probably thought they did enough by trading for Burnes, and it was for one year, but they needed to be able to make another deal like that this offseason and the value of guys like Mayo and Kjerstad are just a lot lower now. They couldn’t have gotten Crochet without giving up Basallo. They missed out on Luzardo, either because they gave up the prospects the Marlins liked in the earlier deal, the guys they have had their stock fall, or because of conservatism. They missed on Brady Singer in a classic opportunity for a hitter for pitcher swap.

Of course they would have had to make multiple moves in order to shore up the rotation, you don’t post the second worst run differential and fix it with one pitcher. But that just goes to show how badly they let it get away… they needed a *lot* of help because the Orioles ignored investments in pitching basically every year except 2024.

ajake57Member since 2019
1 year ago

The current projected standings have them playing one game over .500 the rest of the way. In order to think they have a shot at the playoffs you have to project them to be closer to 25 games over .500 the rest of the way. That means that they need to play like a 98-win team just to get to 86-76. The 2019 Nationals came back to win the world series after being 19-30, if I’m not mistaken. Which is to say that the odds aren’t zero, but they’re getting perilously close. My biggest fear for this squad is that they’ll flounder in mediocrity for the next few years. They have to shake things up one way or another.

The good news for the Orioles is that they have a few pieces that would be useful to contending clubs and they still have some interesting prospects in AAA that could use some time to get their feet wet. So even if they decide to punt the season in the next month or so they can still seriously entertain being competetive again in 2026.

The bad news is that this team needs a lot of pitching help, even if their bats do bounce back. Even if you have a healthy Bradish and Rodriguez for 2026 and one of Povich, Young or McDermott sticks, you’re still going to need 4-5 viable guys behind them to make it through the season. They can’t expect to churn all this through their farm system. They’re going to have to spend money on one of those top tier free agent SPs (Cease, King, Gallen) before they can even consider some sort of patchwork rotation like they’ve been trying to get away with.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  ajake57

This is a great point about needing to play like a 98-win team. I would hate to see a team this talented punt in May, but I don’t see any way they can win enough games to get back in the race.

If they decide to re-tool for 2026, they should get started soon. O-Hearn, Mullins, Laureano, and Bautista are all free agents at the end of the season and are playing very well. If the Orioles wait to trade them, they risk injuries and performance regression.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  Mo

Bautista in under control thru ‘27 if I recall correctly.

MoMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

My mistake. Looks like he signed a 2-yr deal then will go back to arbitration.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  ajake57

King looks like the best one of that group by a lot right now. Cease would also be good, but Gallen looks like a reclamation project. Senga, Framber Valdez, Ranger Suarez, Merrill Kelly, and Seth Lugo should also be available if if their teams don’t extend them beforehand.

I would say they really need to sign at least one of King or Cease and at least one of Suarez, Mahle, Valdez, Kelly, and Senga. A guy with some upside like Dustin May or Gallen wouldn’t be a bad idea either, or a good pitcher with some injuries like Eflin or Bieber. They probably have to assume that their entire rotation needs to be rebuilt. They will probably get something out of Rodriguez and / or Bradish but the jury is very much out on how much that will be.

orioles fanMember since 2022
1 year ago

Minor quibbles, 1) the Mets were covering most of McCann’s contract, and 2) Burnes has made it clear that he was going to Arizona almost regardless of what he was offered elsewhere.

The 2024 season is a bit of Rorschach into how observers view success and data. In the aggregate, the Orioles won 91 games, made the playoffs, and scored the second most runs in the league. It is fair to report that way.

But, really it was a tale of two seasons. April through June 20 and then the rest. Going 49-25 and looking like a continuation of the dominance of 2023 and the beginning of an era of elite success and then a below .500, 42-46 downward spiral signaling something had gone very wrong and would only get worse without key changes.

People blamed the bad second half on injuries. They pointed to the overall good offensive numbers (bouyed by inconsistent play, like winning the first game of series by 12 runs and then scoring a total of 3 the next two games). But, as we see now, it was a harbinger of things to come.

Combined with horrible FA acquisitions, poor bullpen choices (Perez over Coulombe) and doubling down on the hitting philosophy by promoting an assistant coach, it should not be a surprise that things are bad to those who closely watch the team.

johndarc
1 year ago
Reply to  orioles fan

Didn’t it come out that Baltimore offered Burnes one of those low years, high AAV type deals? You figure if he wasn’t going to get that type of money, go where you are the most comfortable.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  johndarc

I think the Orioles offered him 4 years, $180 million. While the D’backs gave him 6 years, $210 million with an opt out after 2026.

I think taking the extra $30 million for your age 34 and 35 seasons – with the opt out if he returns to peak form (though who knows how many players will want to opt out of guaranteed money before the CBA expires) – is probably the better deal. Even if he really wanted to go to Arizona (and by all accounts he did), it doesn’t look like he gave them a discount for his services.

I don’t know if Baltimore offered any opt outs, or were willing to go an extra year at $20 million – or if that still wouldn’t have been enough. I do get not wanting to get into a bidding war with the Yankees (though maybe getting them to up the offer benefits you as they have less money to spend them) – but were they even in on Crochet? Maybe the White Sox loved the Red Sox prospects, and the Orioles wouldn’t be able to beat their offer… but his extension with the Red Sox was for less money than they offered Burnes.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Phil

I think taking the extra $30 million for your age 34 and 35 seasons – with the opt out if he returns to peak form (though who knows how many players will want to opt out of guaranteed money before the CBA expires) – is probably the better deal.

Burnes will have to fall apart to not make more than $15 million in his age 34 and 35 seasons, so he definitely took less money to play in Arizona. Baltimore had the second highest offer for him and Arizona wasn’t even bidding until Burnes asked Boras to contact them. That was always where he wanted to be.

were they even in on Crochet? 

Getz wanted Basallo for Crochet, just like he wanted Holliday for Cease. Elias already traded a lot of prospects for other pieces, so there wasn’t really much left to deal this winter unless someone loved Mayo, who can’t hit premium velocity.

booondMember since 2019
1 year ago

Adley hurt last year and having bad luck this year; Gunnar over his head last year and started off hurt this year. Is he still hurt?

Pitching is a disaster. Eflin and Rodriguez hurt can’t be helped but they added no one. The Rogers trade… wow! Coby, Heston, Jackson smell overrated right now. Lost year. The plan should be for 2026.

David Klein
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

I didn’t understand what they saw in Rogers as not only were his bottom line results ugly as was his statcast page as it was a sea of blue. Stowers having a big time breakout just added to that shit sandwich of a trade.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

Holliday is a young 21 more than holding his own in the majors after a rough premature intro last year. He’s been especially good the past 3 weeks.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

Yeah, Holliday’s essentially been the lone bright spot for the Os.

dangledangleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  O'Kieboomer

Yeah the comment of him not having an MVP level season is kind of out there. Last year was a nightmare for him. He’s 21 and in what effectively is his first full MLB season and playing well. Most teams would kill for that.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

I think part of the problem is that they’re always planning a few too many years out without realizing they need to ante up at some point!

Also all prospects are overrated at some point, for a while. I think Dombrowski’s magic is knowing this and which ones to give away. They should lock Elias in a room with Dombrowski until he learns! Elias has everything you could want in a GM besides that “go-for-it-ness”, but I think that can be taught if they’re patient enough.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  opifijikl

Elias literally traded for Burnes, Eflin, Flaherty, etc. The farm is currently thin precisely because he traded so many guys already, but people like you keep pretending that he just hangs on to his prospects. I don’t understand that narrative when the facts directly contradict it.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

I appreciate that you bring counter examples! Do you think we’re too focused on the results and not the process then? I look at the Orioles and say “why is this guy pitching, he’s bad” which to me says they don’t have better options. I am wondering why that is the case in a season where they should be all-in before their core gets expensive.

Their farm is still good according to FG, and allegedly has good pitching depth, but I haven’t seen any prospects taking the leap to be impact players at the major league level.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  opifijikl

 look at the Orioles and say “why is this guy pitching, he’s bad” which to me says they don’t have better options. I am wondering why that is the case in a season where they should be all-in before their core gets expensive.

Because Kyle Bradish won’t be back until the second half, Grayson Rodriguez has missed most of the season, Zach Eflin has missed most of the season, Albert Suarez has missed most of the season, and Charlie Morton went from a consistently 1 to 2 WAR pitcher to the worst starter in the league.

Sugano has actually been good, whether or not he can maintain that given his incredibly low strikeout rate. But if you take three starting pitchers out of any team’s rotation and have a fourth turn into a pumpkin, then it’s going to look pretty bad.

Their farm is still good according to FG

The O’s have Basallo (60), Mayo (50), McDermott (50 who has also been injured), and then nine 45s. For comparison, the Rays have a 60, five 50s, and eleven 45s. And personally, I would have Mayo and McDermott as 45s with Overn, Young, Honeycutt, and Fruit as 40s. I watched Mayo in person three weeks ago and he could not catch up to mid-90s velocity, which is why no one wants to give up a major league pitcher for him.

SculpinMember since 2025
1 year ago

The advanced metrics don’t have the slightest clue what is wrong with Rutschman. His xwOBA has been way above average all season. I got tired of waiting on him in my shallow mixer and dumped his sorry butt for Ivan Herrera.

Meanwhile, Stowers has a better OPS than anyone in the Orioles line-up.

CosmoMember since 2024
1 year ago

I made a comment on an Oriole article at the end of April that Dan wrote and reminded him it was April… I was wrong. Dan was right to be worried. My apologies.

isavage
1 year ago

Orioles could be going down the White Sox path

Shalesh
1 year ago
Reply to  isavage

Nailed it, sometimes the simplest explanations are the best. The 2021 White Sox didn’t have a Gunnar Henderson, but they had a core lineup of Moncada, Anderson, Robert, Jimenez, Madrigal, Vaughn with Grandal having a great essentially final year of his career. That team also had a starting rotation of Giolito, Cease, a still good Lance Lynn with Crochet, Reynaldo Lopez, Kopech, and Liam Hendrix in the bullpen. Zips projected them to win the 2022 AL Central by 10 games.

By mid-2022, career WAR accumulation for Moncada, Anderson, Jimenez, Madrigal, Vaughn, Lynn, and Hendrix basically ended and the White Sox gradually and then suddenly became the worst team in baseball.

Sometimes the baseball gods just hate your team and spending $30M/year more in Free Agency won’t make much difference.

Roman AjzenMember since 2020
1 year ago

The Os have tried to craft a new competitive strategy for the mid market rebuild. The Rays have perfected the constant churning of prospects to balance the present and future while keeping costs low (also the A’s approach). The Guardians pair that with signing kids to long-term extensions. Richer teams pair prospects and extensions with external additions (Astros, Cubs). The Os however have not traded players either to get better or to get younger/cheaper (with the Burnes trade as the one exception), but they also haven’t signed their studs to extensions which just means they have a lot of players piling up on the depth chart, getting more expensive and not being used to cover the inevitable holes that arise.

This team should have absolutely outbid SD’s poopoo platter offer to the CWS for Cease or even traded for Cease this year, but instead they sat idly by as the league zoomed past them.

johndarc
1 year ago
Reply to  Roman Ajzen

How much of that is drafting Boras clients and kids with pedigree who won’t sign team friendly extensions at all?

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Roman Ajzen

The Os however have not traded players either to get better or to get younger/cheaper (with the Burnes trade as the one exception)

Burnes is the one exception if you completely ignore Dylan Bundy for Kyle Bradish, Jorge López for Yennier Cano and Cade Povich, Mac Horvath and Jackson Baumeister for Zach Eflin, César Prieto and Drew Rom for Jack Flaherty, along with Connor Norby and Kyle Stowers for Trevor Rogers. Flaherty and Rogers were terrible for the Orioles, but that doesn’t change the fact that Elias used prospects to acquire them.

This team should have absolutely outbid SD’s poopoo platter offer to the CWS for Cease or even traded for Cease this year, but instead they sat idly by as the league zoomed past them.

Getz demanded Jackson Holliday for Cease and Samuel Basallo for Crochet. It’s mystifying to me that your comment was upvoted when everything you wrote was completely wrong. Elias definitely made some bad moves, but saying that he “sat idly” is blatantly false.

neuronicMember since 2021
1 year ago

It really seems like the Orioles thought they would be able to find a bunch of surplus value in their pitching and just haven’t. I know there were articles years back about Steve Cohen rebuilding their servers and analytics infrastructure, and I think it’s finally paying dividends for the Mets. It’s very possible that Elias is behind the times in the pitching arms race.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  neuronic

The Mets also poached Sterns as their GM, who did that forever with MKE.

hopbittersMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  neuronic

My theory is he thought they were getting a great deal on age 37 Bob Gibson.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  neuronic

I’m really convinced that your line about the Orioles thinking they can mine a bunch of surplus talent is correct. This is also how the Astros did it, fixing up Charlie Morton and finding diamond in the rough guys like Framber Valdez. Given that they have invested almost nothing in pitching in the top 5 rounds of the draft and gone for volume over high-end prospects in their prospect returns it’s clear they think that if they turn over enough rocks they will find guys who respond to their development team.

I think there is something to going for volume in pitching prospects but I’m not sure they did it enough. And “we will be better than anyone else” is not a great strategy! Everyone is looking for the same stuff as the Astros guys were back then and people who were involved with that program are now spread out all over baseball.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  neuronic

Any team that lost three starters out of its rotation would struggle, and while I was against the Charlie Morton signing, no one expected him to be this bad. The far bigger concern is the hitting regression. Most of those bats have been cold since the 2024 All-Star break.

opifijiklMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

I am kind of assuming the bats can fix themselves (seriously, what are the odds that a whole lineup forgets how to hit a baseball). The pitching depth seems to me like low hanging fruit to balance the team out.

Have they been graduating good pitchers to the majors to supplement their signings/trades? You watch a lot more O’s than me, presumably. I’ve seen a few comments here suggesting the pitching dev needs to figure something out. Thoughts?

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  opifijikl

No team has four major league ready pitching prospects in the minor leagues. The one guy the Orioles had, McDermott, has also been injured.

casey jMember since 2026
1 year ago

It’s interesting to me how often someone mentions a pitcher’s bad “peripherals” when they seem to just be saying, “He doesn’t have enough strikeouts.”

He is bad in that regard, but he also walks guys half as much as the average pitcher, gets more grounders, gives up fewer line drives, etc

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  casey j

Yeah, at some point FG has to accept that FIP is the DIPS equivalent of batting average, haha.

PhilMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  casey j

Its not just that he doesn’t strike anyone out – he’s also allowing 1.54 HR/9. His BABIP is also lower than any season he had in Japan, and while his GB% is good, he’s 45th out of 143 pitchers with 30IP. His LOB% is 8th highest out of that cohort.

While his xERA and xFIP are better than his FIP, they are still a run worse than his ERA.

I really want him to do well – I think it would be really cool after the career he’s had in Japan to come over in his mid 30s and be an effective pitcher. So while he is the only Orioles starter (aside from Akin, but his 1.2IP as a starter came as an opener) with an ERA under 5, the wheels could suddenly fall off. Or he could keep this up – or learn how to strike out MLBers. It is just worrying that the guy with a 4.84 FIP has the 2nd best FIP of your starting pitchers. And thr best one is 4.78.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Phil

I am convinced of this as well—either he has to improve his TTO percentages or he’s going to get hit hard. There is just no precedent for a pitcher succeeding like this over the medium term this century. Kyle Hendricks had far better TTO numbers than this.

boomstickMember since 2024
1 year ago

In Soviet Russia, foundation builds you!

Russian proverb, allegedly

Youppi!
1 year ago

It’s the curse of MASN! They finally ended the feud and now are reaping the bad karma for being such miserly jackasses for so long.

I also wonder if they just have cash flow issues; hence reticence of more contract commitments. I watched a condensed game of the Friday blowout and it seemed empty and a stunning afternoon.

Last edited 1 year ago by Youppi!
markakis21
1 year ago

People love to blame Elias, but fundamentally this collapse is on the players. If the players were playing to anywhere near their projections or career norms, this is a .500 team at least. We’d still complain about the offseason, and Elias not getting pitching, but things would not be a disaster. Orioles have pretty much always had bad pitching and gotten by. They won 101 games with Kyle Gibson as the ace.

The failure of the Orioles is on Adley Rutschman, Ryan Mountcastle, Heston Kjerstad, Coby Mayo, Tyler O’Neill, and the likes of them. This is also why they will not recover going into next season. Because it’s the same players who have regressed so heavily that will be there next season, minus two of the only four position players who are actually playing with any energy, as Mullins and Ohearn are gone in FA. I know they aren’t amazing players, but they play hard and will be missed.

It’s time to tear the whole thing down to the studs. This is a collapse similar to the White Sox. Moncada, Anderson, Jimenez, Robert etc were all great players until they weren’t. White Sox current level of suck was achieved because they waited too long to tear it down, thinking things would get better.

Trade Bautista. Trade Mullins. Trade Ohearn. Trade Sugano. Trade any reliever that a team has any interest in. If Kremer rebounds enough, trade him. Same for Mountcastle. Trade Eflin if he’s healthy. Listen to offers on anyone and everyone, including Gunnar (although I doubt highly that’s even possible to move him, the price is too high) except for arguably Holliday.

Tear the entire team down to the studs. It’s fundamentally broken.

orioles fanMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  markakis21

I blame Elias b/c I think whatever is it they’re doing on the player development/strategy side is contributing to the decline in hitting performance. I would be optimistic about internal improvement if the hitting coaches had been the ones to go – some indication that the organization was changing philosophy. Otherwise, yeah, it’s done. Take this dumpster fire, remove O’Hearn and Mullins, and it’s even worse.

Also, the busting of Kjerstand and Mayo without having traded them is GM malfeasance.

EltnegMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  markakis21

Orioles have pretty much always had bad pitching and gotten by. They won 101 games with Kyle Gibson as the ace.

You don’t win 101 games with bad pitching. Kyle Bradish finished 4th in Cy Young voting and they had the best bullpen in the AL.
That said, in hindsight there were red flags that wasn’t sustainable long term, Danny Coulombe and Yennier Cano had career years in the pen and Bradish way outperformed his underlying metrics.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Eltneg

Yeah they were 7th in fWAR that year, 5th in RA9-WAR. Run prevention was not a problem that year. A lot of it was luck from the starters and always being able to use relievers in close games, thanks to having so many elite bullpen guys.

catmanwayne
1 year ago

This is a consequence of doing close to nothing during the offseason. On the flipside, the Mariners also didn’t do much over the winter except run it back, shuffle depth pieces around, and sign a couple of crappy veterans yet they lead their division so far. Time will tell, there’s 115ish games left to be played and Baltimore’s position player group is still so talented. Ain’t no way they’re finishing this far below .500.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

This is a consequence of doing close to nothing during the offseason.

Besides increasing payroll by more than every team in baseball except the Dodgers? It is completely fair to say that Elias made bad moves, but seeing so many people outright lie by saying that he did “close to nothing” is so weird.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

They’re spending less than they did in 2017 both in absolute terms and relative to the league.

But yes, they did strike out while trying to bunt with the bases loaded and one out.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago

They’re spending less than they did in 2017 both in absolute terms and relative to the league.

https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/al-east/baltimore-orioles/

2025: $164,561,000

2017: $164,326,172

And that’s the only other season that the Orioles have had a payroll above $150 million. It’s one thing not to know the numbers, but you obviously looked them up and still made a deeply disingenuous comment because you didn’t want to acknowledge that I was correct.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  jdbolick

lolol.

I was looking at Spotrac, lad…but go on believing that the world is out to get you – I’m sure that’ll make you feel better about the Orioles’ thorough fumbling of this opportunity!

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago

The world isn’t out to get me, you’re just well known for making completely incorrect comments and never admitting your mistakes.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago

Three starting pitchers have missed most of the season so far. Mountcastle, Rutschman, and Westburg have been cold since the 2024 All-Star break. Jackson Holliday is hitting better but has been one of the worst defensive second basemen in the league, and the rest of the defense has been pretty terrible as well. Throw in a terrible bullpen outside of Bautista and it’s a lost season.

A similar thing happened to the 76ers this year, but the difference is that third pick in the NBA draft will be ready to contribute the following season whereas the third pick in the MLB draft probably won’t.