It’s Time to Commit or Quit on Lindor
While the Brewers showed a disappointing inclination to cut costs this winter in a division that’s ripe for dominating, they didn’t disappoint when it came to their franchise player, Christian Yelich. Some of the team’s secondary talent, names like Eric Thames, Gio González, and Travis Shaw, were left to find richer pastures, but the Brewers made sure to lock up the services of the player who was truly indispensable. Yelich didn’t get Bryce Harper or Gerrit Cole money, but that was never in the cards with free agency years away, him hitting the market in his 30s, and coming off a significant injury. My colleague Jay Jaffe has smithed up many additional words on Yelich which you should go read now.
When seeing the Brewers close a long-term pact with their superstar, it’s not hard to contrast it with the behavior of the Cleveland Indians. A team with a larger market but worse attendance, the Indians were very close to the Brewers in revenue in the most recent Forbes estimates, with $282 million in revenue compared to $288 million for the Brew Crew. There’s some give and take in these numbers with baseball’s books not being open for all to peruse, but the figures probably aren’t that far off the mark. After all, compared to companies in other industries with similar revenues, baseball teams are relatively simple corporations. The big-ticket revenues and costs are in fact quite well-known, so there’s only so far these numbers can miss.
My fellow FanGraphier Craig Edwards convincingly argued last week that the question of the Indians being able to afford to extend Francisco Lindor a new contract is more a question of willingness than ability.
It’s always useful to know what kinds of numbers we’re talking about, so let’s whip up a projection and ballpark what Lindor’s future looks like. It seems a waste to have a projection system just hanging around and then not use it!
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2020 | .289 | .351 | .523 | 637 | 113 | 184 | 41 | 3 | 34 | 93 | 59 | 101 | 22 | 126 | 9 | 6.5 |
| 2021 | .291 | .355 | .540 | 615 | 112 | 179 | 42 | 3 | 35 | 94 | 59 | 99 | 21 | 131 | 10 | 6.7 |
| 2022 | .287 | .351 | .537 | 600 | 108 | 172 | 39 | 3 | 35 | 91 | 58 | 100 | 20 | 129 | 9 | 6.3 |
| 2023 | .285 | .351 | .531 | 582 | 105 | 166 | 38 | 3 | 33 | 87 | 57 | 94 | 20 | 128 | 8 | 5.9 |
| 2024 | .283 | .348 | .527 | 565 | 100 | 160 | 36 | 3 | 32 | 85 | 55 | 88 | 18 | 126 | 7 | 5.6 |
| 2025 | .282 | .346 | .519 | 543 | 95 | 153 | 33 | 3 | 30 | 80 | 52 | 82 | 17 | 124 | 6 | 5.1 |
| 2026 | .276 | .339 | .499 | 521 | 87 | 144 | 31 | 2 | 27 | 73 | 48 | 76 | 15 | 117 | 5 | 4.3 |
| 2027 | .275 | .335 | .486 | 494 | 80 | 136 | 28 | 2 | 24 | 67 | 43 | 68 | 14 | 113 | 4 | 3.7 |
| 2028 | .267 | .325 | .456 | 465 | 71 | 124 | 24 | 2 | 20 | 58 | 38 | 62 | 12 | 103 | 3 | 2.7 |
| 2029 | .260 | .314 | .428 | 435 | 62 | 113 | 21 | 2 | 16 | 50 | 33 | 54 | 10 | 93 | 2 | 1.8 |
| 2030 | .251 | .300 | .397 | 403 | 53 | 101 | 18 | 1 | 13 | 42 | 27 | 46 | 9 | 82 | 0 | 0.9 |
Yup, that Francisco Lindor dude is pretty good at baseballing. He won’t hit free agency as young as Harper or Manny Machado, but with two years remaining until he’s eligible, he will hit it in time for his age-28 season. Assuming $7.5 million per ZiPS win (this figure still tracks as the best predictor of salaries with this winter’s contracts included) and a discounted rate for his final year of arbitration, ZiPS projects a 10-year extension starting in 2021 as costing $373 million at 5% salary growth and $340 million at 3% salary growth.
This projection does not strike me as wholly unreasonable given what we saw this winter. Lindor’s better and younger than Anthony Rendon, who will earn $35 million a year over seven years. Cole is in a similar tier to Lindor in value, and he will make $36 million per year over nine years. Lindor making $34-$37 million isn’t odd.
And as Craig said, the Indians could absolutely do this if they wanted to. Paying Lindor $35 million a year doesn’t add $35 million to payroll; he’s making $17.5 million plus benefits already and the team’s estimated payroll is under $110 million. The old “but Dan, how can they afford the rest of the team if they’re paying Lindor?” argument doesn’t quite work here because by and large, the Indians aren’t paying the rest of the team anyway, even with Lindor making $17.5 million. Trevor Bauer and Corey Kluber are gone. The outfield, putting up less than half the wins of the Twins outfield, only entered 2019 with a single player making over $600,000 (Leonys Martin).
Remember, the income the Indians receive from shared revenue sources, before even counting their own revenues they just get to keep to themselves, is in the $200-million range every year. Baseball is awash in veritable waterfalls of cash. The Marlins could easily afford to put the home run feature back up and modify it so that the animatronic marlins shoot $100 bills in the direction of their lone fan in attendance.
But for the sake of argument, let’s assume that that the Indians cannot actually afford Lindor. All the revenue is going towards fixing up Paul Dolan’s grandma’s leaky root cellar, paying minor leaguers like actual employed human adults, and an older, stronger boy held team ownership upside down until $100 million fell out of their pockets.
Surely the Indians would be willing to extend Lindor an offer for $150 million, an offer he would surely decline the second he or his representation saw the figure. Given that currency can be used for other things and winning is an investment more than a cost, why haven’t the Indians used that money for other needs, moves that would help the team win during the two seasons for which they still have the services of Francisco Lindor? An extra $150 million gets you almost to four years of Yasmani Grandal and Josh Donaldson. It gets you Nick Castellanos and Mike Moustakas and with enough loose change left over for Edwin Encarnación and two years of Tanner Roark. This is not an organization that has capitalization issues; the owner is a billionaire and the Forbes estimated team value has increased by $100 million per year over the last five years, while the debt on the team is under 10% of the team’s value.
Yes, the team has remained competitive under these financial constraints. The team also sat at home last October, literally missing the playoffs by the number of wins Michael Brantley created for the Houston Astros. Brantley, as you may remember, was the team’s most valuable outfielder by nearly three wins in 2018 and the Indians were so terrified that he might accept a one-year, $18 million qualifying offer that they let him walk for nothing.
The Indians will likely be a contender in 2020, but it’s a team with serious holes that have not been addressed. At least in our depth chart projections, the Indians are below average at second base, left field, center field, right field, the bullpen, and below the AL average at designated hitter, while spending less than $10 million in free agency. Now that they’ve lost Mike Clevinger for six-to-eight weeks, their depth chart projections have sagged enough to pull the White Sox within three wins.
By inaction and team ownership unwilling to invest in the franchise, the Indians are watching their chances of winning the American League slowly evaporate. The probability of them taking the crown in the bush league, on the other hand, has been soaring. If the team won’t keep their Cal Ripken, they might as well just dynamite the whole thing and start over.
Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.
“The Marlins could easily afford to put the home run feature back up and modify it so that the animatronic marlins shoot $100 bills in the direction of their lone fan in attendance.”
That’s not a fan, that’s a Major League scout.
No, it’s a guy named steve:
https://sports.theonion.com/florida-marlins-delay-game-until-their-fan-shows-up-1819571683
They don’t even have to re-stock it every game.
The AL Central is unlikely to be as weak as it was last year; the Twins are the favorites at the outset, albeit with large question marks about their rotation, the White Sox are a popular riser, albeit also with large rotation questions (though with a much higher ceiling there than MIN), and Detroit won’t be good but might be interesting with prospects getting their feet wet in the bigs. Cleveland has… not really improved.
Wow no respect for the Royals here!
The Royals won’t be good. Or interesting.
To be fair, the Royals don’t have to be good or interesting, they just have to be better and more interesting than they were last year. Which, by default, is almost certainly likely to be true.
The Royals have the defending AL HR champion! I mean, it’s not nothing…
No franchise has to be good or interesting. For the owners it merely has to make money, which can be done with TV and other income and a low payroll. The fans are getting screwed.
Lindor’s agent has made it known that Lindor is going to test free agency. Period. Fugeddabout anything else. Yelich, on the other hand, gave his small market franchise a ‘home town discount’, tho’ just how much the comments do a great job of discussing. Comparing the 2 situations is, well, hilarious.
Weird definition of “hilarious”
The Indians have had a half-decade to make a serious Lindor offer. And if I had a dime for every player who claimed to want to test the market and it wasn’t heavily a negotiating position, I couldn’t even buy a hash brown.
I like this Dan Szymborski guy.
And Lindor has turned down every extension offer they’ve made yearly,since the 2016 off season.
Actions speak louder than words.
Lindor had his first round bonus money and a 10 million plus deal with New Balance in his pocket before the 2017 season started,he’s never been motivated to sell his free agency years for security,like say Yelich or Jose Ramirez.
Scattered, Smothered, Covered, Chunked,Topped, Diced, and Peppered.
Mmmmmmmmmm……
My problem with this article is that we have no idea what the Indians have offered nor what Lindor wants. For all we know, they’ve offered him an extension in the 10-year, $350 million dollar range and he’s turned it down.
Lindor himself was recently quoted as saying: “Do I want $500 million, of course, anybody wants that. I don’t care who you are, you could be a billionaire and you’d still want that”. Now, that may be him just fantasizing while realizing that he’s not actually going to get that. Hard to tell from the quote.
Again none of us knows. But this article makes it sound like the Indians are the “villain” when it could be Lindor. Or it could even be both. Maybe they’ve offered him an unreasonably low contract AND Lindor’s holding out for an unreasonably high contract.
Indians should go year to year with Lindor. Offer him like 60 million per year, one year at a time.
I don’t know if 1-year deals is the answer, but they could certainly measure their current window and make him that long of a deal, maybe with some options. Say, $200M over 4 years.
The point of the article was to make the Indians the villain. The whole point.
Well yeah, every baseball writer hates everybody’s favorite team. Of course the Indians are villains.
Well Lindor is not the villain for trying to maximize the income he receives. If the Indians offered him that contract and his agent says we believe the free agent market will give you 10 years $370 million, well why not wait and get the extra $20 million. That’s a lot of money. We also don’t know what the CBA will look like after 2021, there’s a possibility teams will have more money to spend with a higher luxury tax number, increasing his ability to get extra money from the Yankees or Cubs or whatever. None of this makes him the villain.
Your point about us not knowing what the Indians have offered is valid, but I think the point of the article is to say that the Indians need to make a decision on Lindor sooner rather than later…and the decision should be to make their best effort to sign him.
Which is why I put villain in quotes.
Again though the article assumes that if the Indians would just offer Lindor a contract that’s in the ballpark of the numbers presented in the article, Lindor will immediately sign it and everyone can hold hands and sing Kumbaya. We have no idea if that’s true. It’s entirely possible that Lindor thinks he’s worth a lot more than $35 million a year. In which case, I’m sure even Dan would agree that the Indians should walk away.
Sure. We don’t know for sure what’s been said between Lindor and the FO.
But that doesn’t mean we know nothing. We know all about the cost cutting and headscratching moves they’ve made over the past couple years to save money. So yes, while I can’t definitively say they’re the villain, I’d say the smart money is on that being the case.
The moves aren’t head scratching.
The Indians attendance over the last two seasons has dropped 15% (309,496) while the team was in the process of winning over 90 games for the third and fourth seasons in a row.People aren’t coming to watch the team play WITH Lindor.This is a historic drop in attendance for a winning team that should be the point of an article by the way.
All other revenues are static so the loss of revenue from ticket sales and sundry affects the payroll directly.
Brantley left because they couldn’t afford for him to accept the qualifying offer(according to the Indians budgeted payroll) ,they were later able to deal away Encarnacion and Alonso to free up money,but Brantley had already signed.
It’s easy to cast the Dolans as villains since they’re rich and run a tightly budgeted team,but it is a successful team and it’s fans are seemingly abandoning it.
A quick google reveals that their average ticket price is $30, so a drop of 300k tickets is about $9m.
But the same google also indicated that their average ticket price 2 years before was 25.61, or a 17% increase in price.
Back of the envelope math suggests that ticket revenue is actually slightly up!
But even if you want to ignore the increase in prices, it’s hard to square a $9M decrease in with the 10’s of millions coming off the payroll.
This is not all to say they should sign Lindor (they probably shouldnt!), but to comment on emh’s assertion that for all we know they offered him 350M. I think this is misleading, and an extremely unlikely state of affairs givein their other actions.
add in the revenue share they would get if they go to the playoffs and you’re probably up another $5-$15 million, depending on if they get to the World Series or not.
Adding to what Themaven said…
People always focus on the cost-cutting but forget that the Indians had a second goal in mind with the moves they made.
To get younger.
Indeeed…Baseball Reference shows them as having the 4th oldest hitters and the 6th oldest pitchers (weighted for playing time) in MLB in 2018.
Last year, they were basically ML average in pitcher and hitter age.
Now think about if they hadn’t made those moves after 2018. They likely would have been the oldest team in baseball in 2019.
Do people really think that would have been a recipe for success in 2019 and beyond?
They could have gotten younger without cutting payroll?
Oh really??? How??? Please do enlighten us. Though I suspect I’ll be waiting a long, long time for an answer…
Let Kluber and Brantley go and reinvest the money saved in younger players instead of putting in their pockets?
Reyes ,Mercado,Bauers,Clase,Allen ,Moss,Johnson,and Rodriguez were all acquired via trade over the last two seasons.
See: Spike Lee and NY Knicks for reference. People don’t want to go watch the Knicks play because they don’t want to give their money to Dolan. Crazy how all you have to do is substitute Indians for Knicks and you see the problem.
I guarantee you if Mark Cuban bought the Indians tomorrow there would be 81 sell-outs this year.
I’ll take that bet and give you odds.
The Knicks suck,the Indians win 90+ games four years in a row and lose 15% of their attendance,reconcile that.
it’s easy to reconcile. The Indians sell a product. When you are looking to buy a product you would prefer to buy from someone you like. It’s Sales-101. Nobody likes Dolan because they think he’s a curmudgeon and a liar. It runs in the family.
He cried poor for so long that people got sick of hearing about it. Especially when we all know he has the team paid for before even selling a ticket. Honesty – or lack thereof – can come back and bite hard. Time for him to sell.
They abandoned the team because it’s obvious they are not trying that hard to win.
It doesn’t take a whole lot to guess that teams are the villains here. Revenues are up, salary caps on amateur and ML spending are here, salaries overall are coming down, players are losing ground on their cut of league revenues, the NCAA is getting more and more star caliber interns, FAs getting frozen out on the market…I mean even in the latest case of players being super duper evil by stealing signings – those guys who pay probably dearly in future earnings while Jim Crane the Innocent got to keep all those revenues generated no questions asked….The Indians’ spendinh 3/60 was a record breaker for then, why should get any benefit of doubt in this current climate? We see how teams are acting and its not as the good guys
Sure be nice to see more “Member” symbols in the comments, especially from you guys that I see on practically every string …
Doesn’t cost that much, and the new Roster resource is easily worth a much higher price of admission !!!
Pass. I also use an ad blocker.
Brave browser, it’s pretty cool
Automatic down vote for you, your comment almost made me spit out water all over the ads on my screen.
Plus, it’s a bit presumptuous and contemptuous of you to criticize other people for not spending money on a website. You have no idea about people’s financial or life situations. There’s ads for the free experience, if you turn off the ad blocker for the site.
I know that there’s a fraction of FG readers who probably can’t afford it, but my comment was not aimed at them. There are a large number of non-members who post constantly.
Are you really arguing that an outlay of 14 cents a day is an onerous expense?
Yeah, yeah it’s $50 one-time, not 14 cents a day.
If you can’t afford an outlay of $50 fine. And you’re free to choose only websites you don’t have to pay for.
But FG IS a community and those who can, should support it.
Hi Slinger, I’m in medical school and have no source of income. As much as I would like to support my favorite website, it’s not financially feasible for me. I am very grateful that FG provides free content and I plan on supporting them with my wallet one day. I’m sure there’s plenty of others in a similar situation.
Plenty of time to contribute whenever your situation changes.
I’m with you. The alternative is the ESPN paywall.
I think if I were going to spend that money I’d spend it on The Athletic, where they’re putting effort into good content, rather than a site that seems to be quickly becoming a click farm. It’s pretty clear Dan didn’t read any of the comments on Craig’s article before rehashing its weakest themes.
Dan at least came in with a reasonable number for Lindor’s potential extension ,not the fantasy number Edwards came up with.
Wow. You really should just leave then. But then you said “if” so I guess you’re too cheap to pay for “good continent”. That kind of makes you a loser you know. Settling for an inferior product and complaining about it.
I used to like the Athletic until they went radio silent when it was China vs free speech in the NBA, to the point of even disabling comments on articles that obliquely mentioned it.
No thanks, but I do love my Fangraphs jacket!
I’m not willing to actually go and look it up, but IIRC, in the original $50 subscription post, the author (in the comments) said that fangraphs actually loses money on paid accounts. That is: the users who sign up for paid accounts visit the site enough that FG would make significantly more than $50/year showing ads to them.
I am grateful for the paid account option, because the ads they used to run (haven’t tried it in a while) would crush my browser, and make the mobile experience brutal. And then I would feel guilty for blocking the ads.
Hmm interesting comment. I paid because I thought they wanted that. But if they lose money that’s not so great
What if I spend my membership money on some items in the FG merch store, like a mug because I prefer to have an actual product?
Totally legit!
Sheesh, Lindor’s median projection gives him a 76.7 fWAR career.
So he’s a median HoFer to be?
OK, but what about the much more important $/WAR analysis? He may be amazing at baseball but if he wants money for it do we need this guy in the MLB? Just call some 16 YO brown kid there’s already a hard spending cap for The Next Lindor and we’ll move on
Words can’t describe how much I despise Dolan. He took my favorite sport and team away from me. I refuse to invest money/time into the Tribe due to the owner not wanting to win. Why watch a competitive sport for only to see mediocrity. As an owner you need the drive to want championships, Dolan only cares about his wallet.
The Lindor situation isn’t what would piss me off if I were an Indians fan (emh1969 makes a great point above).
Letting Michael Brantley walk for nothing while in the middle of the Lindor/Ramirez/Kluber window of contention….that right there would get me to grab my pitchfork against Dolan.
I’m sorry, but living in Cleveland for over a decade now I’ve heard this parroted a lot, and I hear people using the owners as an excuse to not go to games ALL THE TIME. I mean, its your choice to spend your money or not, but how did he “take your team away” from you when the last several years they have fielded some of the best, most talented and competitive teams in franchise history? They’ve been the most competitive sports franchise in town over the last few years, and yet are the least supported by the fans.
Add to that very reasonable ticket prices and a fantastic ballpark.
Yes its frustrating not re-signing Brantley or any help this offseason. Yes the Dolans are cheap. All owners are cheap. Not all teams have had Frankie Lindor and this group of talent though. Why not enjoy it while its here? Don’t let them use attendance as an excuse to be cheap.
OK, End of Rant. Nothing personal, but it’s something I hear a lot and am always genuinely puzzled about.
I’m a life long Clevelander and a season ticket holder and I’m heartily sick of the bull puppy excuses I hear from people that don’t support a winning team.
You don’t go to see a winning team because you don’t like the owner because he’s cheap?That means either you’re not a baseball fan or you’re the one that is cheap.
All the points Todd makes are spot on.
If you like the food at a certain restaurant, but the service is horrible and the owner always changes the menu (saying he can’t afford tomatoes this season or potatoes that season), and then complains he’s losing money, then drives out of the place in a Ferrari – are you still going back there??
If that owner sold the business to someone new who never complained about being able to afford tomatoes or potatoes, who always tried to spruce up the menu and who treated you like a king every time you ate there, wouldn’t you expect that room to be a busier happier place? Wouldn’t you WANT to spend your money there?
Winning team,90+ wins four years in a row.
Sixteenth in Fan Cost Index.With a high percentage of tickets under 25 dollars.
Beautiful ballpark.
Attendance goes down 15% over the last two seasons.
Which one of these doesn’t belong with the others?
The owner.
Yes ,ignore the facts and blame the owner.
I dunno if this website is the place, but if we’re gonna say the Indians SHOULD pay Lindor, maybe we should find out if Lindor WANTS the Indians to pay him. Not to get paid, just if he wants to stay in Cleveland
He recently said that he did want to stay. But they always say thst until some other team comes along and offers more money…
Sure ,give him 10 years 400 million with an opt out after three years and he will love Cleveland,just like any other player would.
TLDR:
“The Indians will likely be a contender in 2020, but…they might as well just dynamite the whole thing and start over.”
Dichotomy is your friend when you write sports
Dan, looking at the “commit or quit” title, you laid out a compelling case as to why Cleveland should have committed to Lindor, but didn’t really address the alternatives. Given that the extension ship has likely already passed, Cleveland can either trade him or play out the string with him. Which is the better option, how much trade value does he have, and how much do these options move Cleveland’s postseason odds this year and in the future? To me that’s the more interesting part of this analysis – not whether Lindor is worth a huge investment (he is) but what should Cleveland do now to maximize his value to them while he’s still there.
I don’t see any reason to think Cleveland won’t continue to run low payrolls as long as they can keep developing elite starting pitching out of thin air. When Lindor reaches free agency, they’ll let him sign with the Dodgers or Angels or whoever and plug in somebody in 2022 until they get an extra year of control over Rocchio. Why would ownership act any differently when they can keep getting away with the same stingy bullshit and win 90+ games every year?
Is this a shadow site for the MLBPA?
Are you a rob manfred burner account?
It is pretty wild to see sports content that doesn’t side with management. These boys, most not even American anymore, are just playing a game for a living!
“All the revenue is going towards fixing up Paul Dolan’s grandma’s leaky root cellar, paying minor leaguers like actual employed human adults, and an older, stronger boy held team ownership upside down until $100 million fell out of their pockets.”
Classic Dan.
That paragraph is a work of art.
I think at this point the Indians see themselves as entering a down cycle with or without Lindor, self-inflicted or not, and don’t want to spend the money. They also don’t want to trade him with two whole years left. They’re kind of boxed in, again self-inflicted or not, and don’t really know which way to go.
I think the extension ship has definitely sailed. I would be pretty pissed that Cleveland didn’t move more aggressively to lock him up before but I really do disagree with Dan that $35M a year for ten years is something Cleveland can afford. They can afford it in the sense that they can pay a 5+ win player $35M a year–that’s actually not a problem for any team except the Rays–but when he’s 34 and creaky and such no, I don’t think they can afford it.
Where I do think Dan has a big point is that they really should be trying to maximize their window of contention; that $150M extension point really hammers home that they could very well have splurged, or even kept payroll at the level it was a few offseasons ago, and the team would be in a much better position. It has been right in front of them for at least a few offseasons, and while it was refreshing to watch them go after Encarnacion their moves since then have been incredibly disappointing. There is something incredibly galling about a team that has a cost-controlled superstar under contract for 2-4 years and their reaction is “great, now that this guy nearly guarantees us a winning season, let’s sit on our hands and save money.” Come on! Do you want to win a championship or not? Guys like Lindor do not come around every decade.
The Indians can afford $35M a year for today’s Lindor.
What we don’t see discussed is whether they could afford to pay $35M a year for his projected ’28 and ’29 production.
Even 2027 look iffy.
And nowhere in those projections is there room for any extended injury killing a whole year.
Should Cleveland extend him another five years?
Sure. But he almost certainly won’t accept. Not even at $50M per year.
Even seven years makes sense.
But if the team expects to be comoetitive year in and year out they’d can’t afford to tie down their budget and roster for ten years down the road.
It’s not the money, it’s the years. So far most ten year deals are 5-6 years of good value and at least three bad ones. Lindor at 26 is great but Lindor at 36? History is not with him.
At this point, I’d say offer up market value…for seven years.
If he wants more, play out the string and hope Rocchio develops. If the team is going to suck at some future time, let it suck without $35M paying for league average performance. Or worse.
“But if the team expects to be comoetitive year in and year out they’d can’t afford to tie down their budget and roster for ten years down the road.”
Exactly. The Indians have stated repeatedly that their goal is to be competitive every year. Signing Lindor to something like a 10 year, $350 million contacts goes directly against that.
Also, teams lose top players all the time and don’t miss a beat. The Nats let Harper walk and went out and won a WS. The Cards let Pujols walk and continued to win games. The Rangers traded A-Rod for a far worse player (Soriano) and improved by 18 games the next year. The A’s traded away Rickey Henderson for a poo poo platter and went from 77 wins to 77 wins. Heck, I’m old enough to remember when the Cards let Bruce Sutter walk and everyone assumed they would be terrible. Instead, they improved by 17 games and went to the WS.
One player isn’t bigger than the team. What the Indians have is a strong organizational culture from top to bottom. (they’re basically the anti-Browns). As long as that culture remains in place, I expect the Indians to find ways to win and be competitive.
Seattle post-Ken Griffey Junior.
They got his best years and the Reds paid for the injury years
Injuries happen and not everybody can play into their 40’s like Aaron.
Most end up lije Waillie Mays with the Mets before tgan.
Absent PEDS, time catches up to everybody.
Clean baseball favors the young and this spring has shown us the team has a few high ceiling guys under 21 two-three years away. If only one or two develop they probably won’t have another Lindor but still be fine.
Of course, just spending more money doesn’t guarantee more wins. And the Indians don’t have a great track record of signing free agents. Not counting this year, here are the last 6 free agents the Indians have signed:
Michael Bourn
Nick Swisher
Mike Napoli
Yonder Alonso
Boone Logan
Edwin Encarnacion
Edwin was probably the best of the bunch though he clearly underperformed his contract. Napoli was a decent signing from a clubhouse perspective but his on-field production wasn’t that great. Swisher and Bourn had one decent year each before their contracts turned into an albatross. Alonso and Boone were lower-level signings that didn’t work out.
And rememeber…at least 3 of these signings – Bourn, Swisher, and Edwin – were considered steals at the time. Yet not one of them came close to living up to their contracts.
They could have just not traded away Encarnacion (or re-signed Santana the previous offseason) and tendered/signed Michael Brantley and they probably would have been in the wild-card last year. And as fun as Clase could be (eventually) I suspect we’ll say something similar about Kluber this year. I don’t think you have to sign big ticket free agents but maybe just not getting rid of productive players?
Why does this show Lindor’s 2020 projection as 6.5 WAR, but his player page shows the 2020 ZiPS projection as 6.0? Similar discrepancy in the Jaffe article about Yelich. Why the difference? Compounded over years, that makes a big difference. What gives?
Disagreement between ZiPS WAR and FG in league levels. It’s bigger this year than most.
Lots of great things said about our Tribe. Those of us who follow them religiously know a few things by heart: a player like Frankie rarely comes along; Dolan is cheap; The Tribe front office pulls miracles every year; Tito is the best manager in the game today; Tito won’t be here forever; Tito wants one more chance to win the whole tamale in C-town before he is through. He won’t do it with this lineup. Dolan needs to spend some money to give Tito a chance.
We need a new owner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good article, Dan.
All true individually.
From a fan’s point of view.
The GM point of view starts with: “There’s only 30 jobs for running a baseball business.”
If Dolan is cheap, buy him!
Just because something is affordable doesn’t mean you want to buy it.
Some things just aren’t worth messing with, at any price.
Dolan is cast as being cheap yet the organization he sits at the top of is one of the best in baseball,with executives who cut their teeth in Cleveland scattered all over MLB.
It’s time realize that running a team within a budget is the smart way to do business.
That may mean not catering the the whims of the fans and making tough decisions.Since they have lost 15% attendance over the last two winning seasons.I’m not sure catering to fans matters anyway
“The team also sat at home last October, literally missing the playoffs by the number of wins Michael Brantley created for the Houston Astros. Brantley, as you may remember, was the team’s most valuable outfielder by nearly three wins in 2018 and the Indians were so terrified that he might accept a one-year, $18 million qualifying offer that they let him walk for nothing.”
That’s some amazing ex post facto analysis. The problem is that ZiPS only projected Brantley for 2.2 WAR in 2019. Which means that Dan’s own model showed that offering Brantley a one-year, $18 million qualifying offer (which he very likely would have turned down) was at best a judgment call. And that 2.2 WAR was based on Brantley playing 126 games, which seems a bit high for a guy that averaged 81.3 games played the prior 3 seasons.
I think they did Brantley a favor by not exercising the QO. The QO would have messed up his FA chances so they would have to take him back at 1/$18M. Turns out they probably could have swung it, since the White Sox were so eager to take Machado bro’s like Yonder Alonso off Cleveland’s hands.
Still, they did the player a favor and they’re getting reamed for it.
Not Szymborski’s best work here and in general, resorting to victim/villain analysis is going to lead to bad writing — particularly on a well-worn topic like “Dolan is bad” which was written about by Craig Edwards last week and by Brendan Gawlowski on Jan 17th. Instead, figure out what’s driving Dolan to decrease payroll and see if it can be mitigated or arranged in a way to keep the best stars. Cleveland’s baseball management is among the best in the game, so I don’t think most of us could improve on what they’re doing.
I have a track record as an Indians fan. Although I have lived overseas for almost 50 years and don’t get to games, I am a Tribe fan since having been at the 1948 WS in utero. I was warm, my mom was freezing in Cleveland’s awful Municipal Stadium. The ownership and FO have been horrendous for many of the intervening years. Although the financial structure of MLB has changed a lot, the mediocrity of the Cleveland management has spanned eras. I remember Frank Lane, the GM who traded Colavito and Maris. Like all the Cub fans who have died too soon to see the redeeming year of 2016, I hope to make it. And we didn’t lose by much in ’16, did we? But it was the Cubs’ turn. Now I have to wait until the management and ownership of the Cleveland Native Americans decides they want to win. From a business plan POV they just don’t have to. So they won’t unless and until they want to.
Could a community ownership, GB Packers style, buy out Dolan? At least we would know that there was a partisan group interested in a winner on the field and not just a for-profit balance sheet. I know, it’s too much money. That’s what’s wrong with MLB today.
This is why I favor the player in any financial dispute with the team. Basically every MLB team could run in the red by $100 million every year and still make the owner a profit when sold. And that doesn’t even address creative accounting used to hide revenue (like renting your own parking lot from your own wholly owned subsidiary).
The greater fool theory, again, huh?
While I’m not sure the greater fool theory is true (in fact I’m pretty sure it’s not, judging by recent baseball sales) I am sure it’s the only thing driving these frankly ludicrous valuations. At least, the gap between valuation and assets and cash flow
I hope Lindor gets singed by Cleveland or he will become a Dodger or Yankee and that would suck.
Send him to the Cubs for Hoerner, Marquez, and friends
I understand the $/ZIPS win argument, but why is there no mention of injury when evaluating the risk of a long-term contract?
ZiPS isn’t projecting Lindor to lose 40% of his playing time over the length of the projected contract because it thinks he might quit and become a monk.
I understand that the ABs drop from 630 to 403 (36%), but does ZIPS not take into account giving up at bats to a “better” player as Lindor gets older?